Post by: muleyguy on May 16, 2015, 09:48:08 PM
Hunters Antlerless Antlered
2014 120,488 2006 6225
2013 123,928 1071 5608
2012 120,082 633 5391
2011 125,537 532 4821
2010 131,133 548 4761
2009 135,859 461 5605
2008 144,514 544 4135
2007 139,241
2006 135,195
2005 135,653
The kill counts take more time to compile before 08 so I skipped it but I certainly can go do it.
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Your contention is that hunting is disimproving and getting more crowded. The trends are clear as day. There are fewer and fewer hunters on a downtrending line. Those hunters are killing MORE mule deer than in the past. I see that before the fires of 14 the doe alocation was increasing. That's not a sign of too few deer and the antlered kill supports that for those years too. I expect that 2015 and 20116 will now see reductions because the big doe kill last year was driven by the fire decision.
Overall, you are simply wrong. Hunter's are diminishing no matter what you say about population. Success is improving. Antlerless availablility is UP indicating they feel the herd is at carrying capacity. To me this points out that there's no biological imperative to changing the system. The demands to change the system are about aesthetics and perception of quality. It's not about deer management. I bet if we had the age data of hunters we'd see that the pool is getting older all the time and recuriting fewer new young hunters. Our trend without doing anything at all is toward more space with fewer hunters getting more deer per hunter.
this is called soft expectations.........the reason the deer hunters are going down????? hmmmmm.......not hard to discern that....you conveniently left out "hunter days" my guess, is that once you calculate that, it isn't as drastic as you make it seem........for people on here that know me, I'm good at digging out WDFW data; in this case, I'm not going to waste my time......
the reason for decreased hunters???? that is not hard......its called "poor experience".....we are losing hunter from poor experience in the field. Ttust me, if we had excellent experience, there would be more demand then supply........
what do you think is the cause of declining hunter numbers when tags are unlimited???? trust me......its not because the experience is so excellent...........
go look at the whitetail units in northern spokane after the APR........the best success of the APR (and why the special interest groups (landowners.outfitters) were for it) was to discourage hunters. and it did an excellent job of this.
how exciting is it to go hunt mule deer in mid october with an
apr??? Not very exciting.....which results in every increasing lower hunter numbers....
so, what we are doing management wise in this state is , instead of doing draw only, is putting in stupid regulations in the name of "science" that are really designed to reduce hunter pressure without reducing opportunity......
so, go ahead and keep your soft expectations........it will just delay what really needs to happen......and, by the way.....I saw a unicorn crapping skittles up in the okanagon the other day.........maybe we should put a season out for them???
let me clue you in.........the reason we are seeing lower deer hunter numbers is because the experience is so poor, many are giving up on it.......
soft expectations instead of real change......
Post by: jrebel on May 16, 2015, 10:17:58 PM
Price of tags, less public land (private timber pay to play), less youth hunting, gated roads, ect. ect. ect.....all play a role in smaller total number of hunters. :twocents:
Post by: syoungs on May 17, 2015, 07:08:17 AM
Post by: hunterofelk on May 17, 2015, 08:00:00 AM
Post by: haus on May 17, 2015, 09:23:34 AM
Very difficult to get young people started in hunting, especially on the west side. Only a couple of weekends and they can't miss school. By the time they are out of school they are busy with starting their life's and hunting doesn't hold any excitement. My two stepsons took the hunter Ed course, but we could never find a free weekend or area to hunt close enough to home. Now they are just not interested.Tough to take in how quickly things have changed. '98-'99 when weyco closed the gates, it was a pinnacle shift in what to expect with land management from the majors. This also coincided with the impact of the changes implemented on National Forest lands, which were initially applied in the early 1990's, but it took until the late 90's early 2000's to see the effects. These two changes were also impacted by the third, predator populations, due to the loss of the ability to bait and/or use hounds to hunt predators, as well as major restrictions for trapping. The four would be disease. The fifth would be a statewide effect, pay to play. I remember my parents jokingly saying in my early teens that at some point in my life time I'd see a time where you'd have to pay for access just to hunt. 20 years later its the standard, not the exception.
While the first four impacts have taken their established toll for the most part, its the fifth that continues to accelerate rapidly.
Getting young people into hunting now, versus how it was up through the 90's has changed significantly. Our options then seemed unlimited, now it is if you have the money.
Post by: boneaddict on May 17, 2015, 10:01:25 AM
I have the opportunity to kill a 190 class buck every season on public land with an over the counter tag. I have the expectations to enjoy my season every year with the hope to fill my freezer with a mature buck with one of the simplest legal primitive weapons I can use.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 17, 2015, 10:05:50 AM
Post by: Miles on May 17, 2015, 10:09:42 AM
There are a lot more points than just your one sided argument.
I have the opportunity to kill a 190 class buck every season on public land with an over the counter tag. I have the expectations to enjoy my season every year with the hope to fill my freezer with a mature buck with one of the simplest legal primitive weapons I can use.
Welcome back... I was starting to think you found a new spot to hang out.
Post by: boneaddict on May 17, 2015, 10:11:06 AM
Post by: boneaddict on May 17, 2015, 10:11:43 AM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on May 17, 2015, 10:16:53 AM
Post by: boneaddict on May 17, 2015, 10:19:19 AM
Post by: boneaddict on May 17, 2015, 10:21:49 AM
Post by: Bigshooter on May 17, 2015, 10:51:35 AM
Post by: LeviD1 on May 17, 2015, 11:19:21 AM
Getting the young people approved to begin with is tougher and tougher. They used to hold hunter's ed at the schools and could get a large number of people qualified early on. Now, there seems to be lots of people waiting for the next year of HE classes.
:yeah:
I think this and tag costs are two of the biggest issues. I know some people trying to get through hunters ed and to get into a field course after the online class since that's almost the only thing you can take it as anymore is so hard. You have to register for the field course at midnight the first night registration opens up because there very very limited classes for the demand. Otherwise you have to wait another year and hope you get registered on time. Its to bad there isnt more classes instead of so much online. I dont have kids but if there were knowledgeable instructors and hands on with empty weapons like when I took it. I would pay $75-100 per child instead of doing online so its worth instructors time to want to teach it. I always grew up around guns and hunting so that part wasnt all knew to me, but there were quite a few kids in the class that were never around it. Sorry I just dont think online classes is a good way to teach gun handling. Tag costs is a big deal to. If you and your spouse say hunt for all big game deer, bear, elk, cougar, and small game and fishing license like I do. Then you got say 2 kids that get deer, bear, or deer, elk or just deer and a small game, and fishing license if their over 14 or whatever the age is. Then if you buy turkey tags at all. Your looking at at least $350 up to probably around $500 just dropping on tags. Then any applications you want to put in for on top of that. Then gear for the family, cost of gas, food and whatever else for the weekend. Thats thousands. Just to have a chance at getting an animal. Thats probably why most people think why do all that when I can go to the store. Or maybe they think instead of spending time and money on hunting lets go on a 1-2 weeks vacation somewhere. Of tag costs dropped to what they were 10-15 years ago I'm sure there would be a lot more people hunting in washington. Cause then you have people who go out of state for maybe some better hunting for a few hundred more but maybe increase their success rate by 40%. Thats my :twocents: anyways
Post by: bobcat on May 17, 2015, 11:47:04 AM
Post by: fishnfur on May 17, 2015, 01:01:15 PM
The reality of the situation seems to be that the world is a very different place today than it was 15 or 30 years ago. We all have many more interests competing for our time, and as mentioned previously, technological advances in television, gaming, and telecommunications work against many would-be hunters. Also, loss of access to what used to be wide-open hunting grounds and/or the initiation of trespass fees by Big Timber only further limits recruitment of those who might become the next generation of participants in our chosen sport. Finally, we can be our own worst enemies by setting very poor examples of "good sporting behavior", both in the field on online in forums such as this. Tie all that in with a near doubling in the cost of fuel and nearly a decade of economic decline in the country, a general and widespread increase in obesity and loss of fitness in the general population, and it should surprise no one that fewer and fewer hunters are returning for a 25% chance of bagging a buck. You can get way better odds at a craps table, and the drinks are free.
Post by: boneaddict on May 17, 2015, 01:05:58 PM
Why do people hunt these days, that's another question???
Was posting this then FishnFur nailed it. :yeah:
Post by: coachcw on May 17, 2015, 01:16:12 PM
Post by: LeviD1 on May 17, 2015, 02:19:59 PM
to sum it up there's to many sissies being raised by there moms and the younger generation of hunter arnt willing to work hard for a good experience .
I agree with fishn. Haha but I also agree with this. Funny way to put it but I think its true to :chuckle:
Post by: hunt6226 on May 17, 2015, 02:33:49 PM
Post by: pd on May 17, 2015, 02:42:00 PM
Post by: tgomez on May 17, 2015, 03:39:48 PM
Post by: cbond3318 on May 18, 2015, 12:05:38 PM
I take my 8 year old all the time!! But the topic remindes me to "pass it down." The future of hunting depends on us sharing our knowlege with, and getting young kids intersted and involved in HUNTING. less hunters= higher tag prices.💰💵 MY SON=MY HUNTING BUDDY
:yeah: I cannot wait until my boys are tagging along. I just pray I have learned enough by then to shorten their learning curve.
Is it bad a side of me gets a little excited to see a decline in interest? Obviously losing enough interest to impact my way of life would be terrible but I have met enough jacks in the outdoors to welcome some self culling trends. :hello:
Post by: boneaddict on May 18, 2015, 12:15:02 PM
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on May 18, 2015, 12:41:56 PM
Could the decline in hunters also be due to price of tags, less youth hunters, etc..... Your assessment seems a little one sided and centered around quality of hunt. Though I don't disagree that quality of hunt may be a part of it....I don't agree it is all of it.:yeah:
Price of tags, less public land (private timber pay to play), less youth hunting, gated roads, ect. ect. ect.....all play a role in smaller total number of hunters. :twocents:
I believe that there are other factors to the decline of hunting/hunters. Generational changes are in effect. Too many 'greenies and tree huggers'. Vegitarianism and the like. Heaven forbid if your son or daughter in the city mentions hunting with a 'GUN' at school! They'd be counseled and expelled! OMG lets save the Spotted Owl, so we'll close these roads and limit access year round. Or charge for access during hunting seasons. Logging reductions in various areas have in ways, had effect on forage. Reduction of predator hunting with hounds, has likely lead to more fawn kill. -Quite possibly decreasing the 'good hunter experience' you mention. But I don't think its all down to not forcing 'Draw Only' hunting privileges. If I lived in a state that was draw only, I'd move.
-Steve
Post by: Chesapeake on May 18, 2015, 03:29:06 PM
Hunters Ed was a crazy pain in the you know what. It actually took almost a year to get it done. There are not many classes, they book up fast, and they are a few hours for 4 or 5 week nights and then a Saturday or Sunday field test. Seems easy enough till you cant find a class within a 40 minute drive, they start about the time you get off work, and there is no way to get the kid from after school care, get them fed, to the class, then get homework done, and to bed before 10 pm. I had to take an hour vacation each day for a week, eat fast food on the way to class, and have the kid do homework on the drive home after the class ended at 8pm.
We got it done, and you can bet I'll do the same for the next one when he's 9, but it took some commitment and a flexible work schedule to get it done.
Then we have the "youth" tags. There isn't anything interesting there for a 10 year old boy. They don't want to shoot does, they want bucks they can tell their friends about. The only buck tags they get are for forkeys in a 3 point unit.
Then we have the seasons and school. I cant take my kid out of school much. They can only miss so many days. The seasons are so short they get a few weekend days for elk, and a few weekend days for deer. So they get to spend 6 or 8 days in the field and their lucky to see some legal animals to even keep their interest.
It sure makes it stressful on me. Its hard enough in this state just to find yourself a legal deer and legal elk to shoot at. Its exponentially harder to try and find a young kid a bull or buck. So then your trying to keep them interested in all the critters and sights and sounds, the "entire experience" that they wont understand for another 20 years or so. Meanwhile your stressing cause your supposed the be the "DAD" and you cant even find your kid a legal buck to shoot.
I don't know what I'll do in 2 years when I have two little hunters to try and help.
I can understand why folks give it up and don't bring their kids into it. Success rates below 20% and overcrowded woods make it no fun. What's the guy that only gets an elk every 4 or 5 years supposed to do with a kid on his hip? I get an elk almost every year and I don't have a clue. I'm hoping like heck the kid draws a decent tag he has a decent chance to fill. I'm not sure we stand a chance at getting him an elk during the regular season.
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on May 19, 2015, 12:49:11 PM
The key is, to be smart as a parent. Plan, adjust. Make it happen at any age. Just getting them out there is the first step. Some take to it. Some don't. Make the experience a good one. Teach! Know that it's not all about the kill/harvest. Like Bone said, there are opportunities a plenty, even on public ground. If it was easy, EVERYONE would do it.
-Steve