Post by: scoutdog346 on June 12, 2015, 11:33:18 PM
long gashes were on the tip of the hart and each one was about a quarter inch deep into the heart. this seemed impossible to me but it really did happen. does this surprise anyone that a deer can run that long with two small holes in his heart? how did the blood flow with all that pressure gone? it ran a little bit too long to say or think that it was just nerves. can anyone explain this or can anyone say that they've seen something like this before?
Post by: Romulus1297 on June 12, 2015, 11:42:28 PM
Post by: Jellymon on June 12, 2015, 11:54:41 PM
I don't think 1/4" actually cuts that far into the heart, the walls are pretty thick. Sounds like you got pretty lucky to find that deer.
Post by: RadSav on June 13, 2015, 12:39:44 AM
In that area of the heart there are no major Nodes. Only Purkinje fibers. So while a strike like that will effect cardiac conduction it can not shut it down like a strike to the SA node, AV nodes or the central bundles.
This shot would undoubtedly collapse the pericardium. This effects rhythm to some extent and definitely make the animal weak. And since the wounds would be great enough the heart will begin to work harder trying to maintain a strong flow of blood to the brain. The pericardium usually controls the pressure around the heart so the extra blood flow does not over expand the heart. Without it there the heart could possibly tear itself and eventually the small cuts could become bigger and more lethal. Hard to tell without inspection if that really is what happened here.
The pointed area of the heart is not surrounded by major lung tissue either. So suffocation would take a very long time and blood loss would be slow.
IMO, you were very smart to wait until morning to try and recover this animal. Deer likely died from either cardiogenic shock from the damaged Purkinje fibers and damaged pericardium, or hypothermia. Neither being extremely fast killers. But by backing off and waiting he should have gone without undue stress and with minimal discomfort. By far the best of the possible scenarios under this unfortunate situation. And much more humane than the average death in the wild.
Post by: scoutdog346 on June 13, 2015, 07:06:52 AM
Post by: Bullkllr on June 13, 2015, 07:26:38 AM
Post by: MLBowhunting on June 13, 2015, 07:32:50 AM
Post by: RadSav on June 13, 2015, 01:11:33 PM
I have killed 2 animals (1 elk, 1 deer) with an arrow that died super quickly- like 2 leaps and flipped over quick. I thought both were heart shots. After examining them I saw the broadhead had literally severed the aorta in each case. So thats what I aim for now.
That is really the holy grail of shots! Hitting that aotic arch region not only severs the blood flow coming in and out but if close enough to the heart it also damages the network of autonomic nerve fibers (electrical impulse bundles). Only way with a bow to kill faster than cutting a big hole in an artery is by instantly stopping the heart all together. At the arch you usually do both! Always amazes me how fast those kills are.
The wife's first bull she shot at 58 yards through the arch. He took a couple steps to his right and then a couple steps to his left and dropped where he was standing when the arrow hit. That spooked a cow that ran full speed straight at me. I hit the same spot with a straight on shot at 35 yards and she went down about 15 yards later. 15 yards at a full run is quite the sight to see!
And even if you miss the network of autonomic nerve fibers the aorta is like the high pressure hose of life. Think of the heart as a muscular hydraulic pump. You have the high pressure out line and the lower pressure vacuum or supply line. Put a hole in the supply line and the pump can continue to work until the fluid is drained. Put a hole in the main pressure line and fluid is expelled almost immediately and all small arterial lines can not get the fluid they need without the pressure to overcome restrictive resistance. In this case the brain doesn't just lose percentages of oxygen, instead it's source of oxygen is completely stopped.
I have never found a source of research that equates systolic pressure to PSI. Wish I was smart enough to figure that out. Best I can surmise is it's maybe 2-4 psi at the aorta, but that in all honesty is a complete guess. Surprising how much that actually is! I remember taking a disabled person on a road hunt for archery deer back in the mid eighties. He shot a small 2X2 blacktail that was about 8-10 yards from the truck and elevated at about 45 degrees. Wind was light but blowing in our direction. The two blade Bear Razorhead must have taken the Aorta at peak systolic pressure and peak lung pressure as I saw a red cloud explode from the chest. The buck tried to run, but his legs gave out before they planted a second time. After taking care of the deer and getting back in the truck to head for home I turned the wipers on to clear the dust from the windshield. It smeared red making visibility impossible. Yes, that much blood mist had reached the vehicle from eight to ten yards away! I would have not believed it had I not been witness to it myself. Pretty crazy!
Post by: kentrek on June 13, 2015, 01:42:08 PM
I have killed 2 animals (1 elk, 1 deer) with an arrow that died super quickly- like 2 leaps and flipped over quick. I thought both were heart shots. After examining them I saw the broadhead had literally severed the aorta in each case. So thats what I aim for now.
That is really the holy grail of shots! Hitting that aotic arch region not only severs the blood flow coming in and out but if close enough to the heart it also damages the network of autonomic nerve fibers (electrical impulse bundles).
she went down about 15 yards later. 15 yards at a full run is quite the sight to see
I hit a cow in just the same way ! I bet she slid 5 to 7 feet after she hit the dirt
Post by: Todd_ID on June 13, 2015, 09:15:22 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on June 13, 2015, 10:02:58 PM
That aortic arch sure makes a mess of things when butchering though :chuckle:I have killed 2 animals (1 elk, 1 deer) with an arrow that died super quickly- like 2 leaps and flipped over quick. I thought both were heart shots. After examining them I saw the broadhead had literally severed the aorta in each case. So thats what I aim for now.
That is really the holy grail of shots! Hitting that aotic arch region not only severs the blood flow coming in and out but if close enough to the heart it also damages the network of autonomic nerve fibers (electrical impulse bundles). Only way with a bow to kill faster than cutting a big hole in an artery is by instantly stopping the heart all together. At the arch you usually do both! Always amazes me how fast those kills are.
The wife's first bull she shot at 58 yards through the arch. He took a couple steps to his right and then a couple steps to his left and dropped where he was standing when the arrow hit. That spooked a cow that ran full speed straight at me. I hit the same spot with a straight on shot at 35 yards and she went down about 15 yards later. 15 yards at a full run is quite the sight to see!
And even if you miss the network of autonomic nerve fibers the aorta is like the high pressure hose of life. Think of the heart as a muscular hydraulic pump. You have the high pressure out line and the lower pressure vacuum or supply line. Put a hole in the supply line and the pump can continue to work until the fluid is drained. Put a hole in the main pressure line and fluid is expelled almost immediately and all small arterial lines can not get the fluid they need without the pressure to overcome restrictive resistance. In this case the brain doesn't just lose percentages of oxygen, instead it's source of oxygen is completely stopped.
I have never found a source of research that equates systolic pressure to PSI. Wish I was smart enough to figure that out. Best I can surmise is it's maybe 2-4 psi at the aorta, but that in all honesty is a complete guess. Surprising how much that actually is! I remember taking a disabled person on a road hunt for archery deer back in the mid eighties. He shot a small 2X2 blacktail that was about 8-10 yards from the truck and elevated at about 45 degrees. Wind was light but blowing in our direction. The two blade Bear Razorhead must have taken the Aorta at peak systolic pressure and peak lung pressure as I saw a red cloud explode from the chest. The buck tried to run, but his legs gave out before they planted a second time. After taking care of the deer and getting back in the truck to head for home I turned the wipers on to clear the dust from the windshield. It smeared red making visibility impossible. Yes, that much blood mist had reached the vehicle from eight to ten yards away! I would have not believed it had I not been witness to it myself. Pretty crazy!
Post by: scoutdog346 on June 14, 2015, 05:04:56 PM
Post by: RadSav on June 14, 2015, 05:10:05 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on June 14, 2015, 06:45:28 PM
How does the aortic arch make a mess of things when butchering?
:yeah:
I had coagulated blood between every muscle layer that needed to be scraped off from the brisket to the back of the ribs on both sides. Good news was that there was hardly any blood when gutting :chuckle:
Post by: scoutdog346 on June 14, 2015, 07:00:30 PM
Post by: scoutdog346 on June 14, 2015, 07:06:57 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on June 14, 2015, 07:17:08 PM
Does anyone know a good and fast way to remove that clear membrane (i think its called fosha) off the meat. Ive done a few tasts tests and hands down i think deer and elk tast way better when its removed. In burgers too. It takes so long to remove. Know any tricks?Paper towels, and a lot of them. That's worked best for me.
Post by: fishingfool on June 14, 2015, 07:17:48 PM
Post by: scoutdog346 on June 14, 2015, 07:32:15 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on June 14, 2015, 07:38:32 PM
So wipe it over and over with paper towels and it will stick to the towel?pretty much. Kind of a wipe/grab action
Post by: scoutdog346 on June 14, 2015, 07:39:54 PM
Post by: RadSav on June 14, 2015, 09:47:42 PM
Does anyone know a good and fast way to remove that clear membrane (i think its called fosha) off the meat. Ive done a few tasts tests and hands down i think deer and elk tast way better when its removed. In burgers too. It takes so long to remove. Know any tricks?
That membrane is actually a protective layer. I used to remove every bit of it with a good fillet knife before freezing. But over the years, and with just two of us trying to eat all the meat we get, we don't always eat everything before the next season. I noticed in some of the stuff that got lost in the freezer that those areas with a little membrane held up better after a year or two, or even three. So now I tend to leave the tough stuff on the roasts. Toss them in the microwave and defrost for five minutes. Meat will still be frozen but it will have loosened just a little. That's the time to get out the fillet knife and trim it off. Once off then the roast can go into the fridge to thaw slowly and safely.
If you don't want to freeze it on then skin it like you would a fish. Skin down, sharp fillet knife, and bam! You can take that white stuff off a full length backstrap from an elk in about 10 seconds with one single cut. And best of all, when you have done a few you won't leave one ounce of meat on that skin. Actually easier than skinning a Cabazon.
Post by: scoutdog346 on June 15, 2015, 09:32:47 AM
Post by: coldsteel3d on June 16, 2015, 06:35:16 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on June 17, 2015, 05:40:23 AM
I have killed 2 animals (1 elk, 1 deer) with an arrow that died super quickly- like 2 leaps and flipped over quick. I thought both were heart shots. After examining them I saw the broadhead had literally severed the aorta in each case. So thats what I aim for now.
I had the same shot this year on a bull. Literally went steps before tipping over. Trauma inside looked like that from a magnum.
Post by: lokidog on December 08, 2015, 07:23:46 AM
Our guest shot a doe this year at 15 yards with a 20g slug out of a rifled barrel, took out the lower part of the heart w/o going into any chambers. Over an hour later, we managed to take her down, she was still on the hoof.
I think too much emphasis is put on taking heart shots as they can be hit too low very easily. As RadSav described, a high heart shot is better and will take out lung as well. I will recommend to future new hunters visiting us that they aim for a center lung shot, and if it goes a little low, will have the benefit of taking out the aortic arch.
Post by: MtnMuley on December 08, 2015, 10:06:42 AM
Post by: sakoshooter on December 08, 2015, 09:52:56 PM
Post by: lokidog on December 08, 2015, 10:10:45 PM
The heart(spelled heart)is a very strong and thick muscle. A couple 1/4" cuts in it obviously didn't do much. The middle of the heart, penetrating the ventricles or cutting the arteries on top of the heart is very fatal. Otherwise the lungs is a better shot.
I know, hart, right? :rolleyes: I couldn't change that. :chuckle: I do think aiming for the lungs should be taught as the primary target since it is larger and a little bit off will still be more quickly deadly. In addition, the top of the heart is between the lungs, so win-win.
Post by: Bango skank on December 08, 2015, 10:52:39 PM
Post by: lokidog on December 09, 2015, 09:04:00 AM
Not a fan of the bon jovi method huh?
Sorry, I'm too old and uncaring about that kind of music to know the reference. :o :chuckle:
Post by: Stein on December 09, 2015, 09:32:15 AM
Post by: Smossy on December 09, 2015, 10:02:51 AM
Unlike other organs of the body the heart is actually a cardiac muscle. Just striking the heart doesn't necessarily mean it has holes in it or that there should be massive blood loss. Especially in the ventricle (compression) region of the heart where the muscle is thicker and stronger. You have to break through the endocardium and reach the ventricle chambers for massive blood loss to happen at the pointed end of the heart. That's tough if the head is dull, traveling slow or the cuts are shallow.What the hell. Why are you not doing bigger things in your life :dunno:
In that area of the heart there are no major Nodes. Only Purkinje fibers. So while a strike like that will effect cardiac conduction it can not shut it down like a strike to the SA node, AV nodes or the central bundles.
This shot would undoubtedly collapse the pericardium. This effects rhythm to some extent and definitely make the animal weak. And since the wounds would be great enough the heart will begin to work harder trying to maintain a strong flow of blood to the brain. The pericardium usually controls the pressure around the heart so the extra blood flow does not over expand the heart. Without it there the heart could possibly tear itself and eventually the small cuts could become bigger and more lethal. Hard to tell without inspection if that really is what happened here.
The pointed area of the heart is not surrounded by major lung tissue either. So suffocation would take a very long time and blood loss would be slow.
IMO, you were very smart to wait until morning to try and recover this animal. Deer likely died from either cardiogenic shock from the damaged Purkinje fibers and damaged pericardium, or hypothermia. Neither being extremely fast killers. But by backing off and waiting he should have gone without undue stress and with minimal discomfort. By far the best of the possible scenarios under this unfortunate situation. And much more humane than the average death in the wild.
Post by: Curly on December 09, 2015, 10:12:15 AM
Lungs are bigger and don't make good tacos.:yeah:
heart is too tasty to go blowing it up or putting holes in them.
:EAT:
Post by: kentrek on December 09, 2015, 10:37:43 AM
Unlike other organs of the body the heart is actually a cardiac muscle. Just striking the heart doesn't necessarily mean it has holes in it or that there should be massive blood loss. Especially in the ventricle (compression) region of the heart where the muscle is thicker and stronger. You have to break through the endocardium and reach the ventricle chambers for massive blood loss to happen at the pointed end of the heart. That's tough if the head is dull, traveling slow or the cuts are shallow.What the hell. Why are you not doing bigger things in your life :dunno:
In that area of the heart there are no major Nodes. Only Purkinje fibers. So while a strike like that will effect cardiac conduction it can not shut it down like a strike to the SA node, AV nodes or the central bundles.
This shot would undoubtedly collapse the pericardium. This effects rhythm to some extent and definitely make the animal weak. And since the wounds would be great enough the heart will begin to work harder trying to maintain a strong flow of blood to the brain. The pericardium usually controls the pressure around the heart so the extra blood flow does not over expand the heart. Without it there the heart could possibly tear itself and eventually the small cuts could become bigger and more lethal. Hard to tell without inspection if that really is what happened here.
The pointed area of the heart is not surrounded by major lung tissue either. So suffocation would take a very long time and blood loss would be slow.
IMO, you were very smart to wait until morning to try and recover this animal. Deer likely died from either cardiogenic shock from the damaged Purkinje fibers and damaged pericardium, or hypothermia. Neither being extremely fast killers. But by backing off and waiting he should have gone without undue stress and with minimal discomfort. By far the best of the possible scenarios under this unfortunate situation. And much more humane than the average death in the wild.
"Bigger things" are over rated....esp as viewed by the general public
Post by: RadSav on December 09, 2015, 10:56:59 AM
What the hell. Why are you not doing bigger things in your life :dunno:
"Bigger things" are over rated....esp as viewed by the general public
Glass a mountain goat from the top of a mountain all by yourself. Find yourself 200 miles off shore surrounded by a pod of whales on a glass water day. Suddenly "bigger and better" becomes relative to the wild experiences of life.
Plus I think slowly, test poorly, talk goofy, look stupid, dislike most people and hate alarm clocks. :tung:
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on December 09, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
Post by: RadSav on December 09, 2015, 11:00:47 AM
Here is the shot I took on my deer this year. It went down very quick. I watched it jump up and double kick then sprint over a cliffs edge and rolled down into a canyon. The deer went about 70 yards from where I shot it. I would guess twenty yards of this was on its feet.
Nice :tup:
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 09, 2015, 11:58:33 AM
What the hell. Why are you not doing bigger things in your life :dunno:
"Bigger things" are over rated....esp as viewed by the general public
Glass a mountain goat from the top of a mountain all by yourself. Find yourself 200 miles off shore surrounded by a pod of whales on a glass water day. Suddenly "bigger and better" becomes relative to the wild experiences of life.
Plus I think slowly, test poorly, talk goofy, look stupid, dislike most people and hate alarm clocks :tung:
Great combo to be a med student :chuckle:
In seriousness though, I'd say you're accomplishing what you were born to do :tup: at least you make it look like it. How anyone can shoot anything but a Savora is beyond me. I know, I know...sorry to sound like a Hoyt shooter ;)
Post by: RadSav on December 09, 2015, 12:26:50 PM
Duke Savora encouraged me to interview real doctors and medical school professors. Ask as many questions as we could think up. Medical/Clinical research is about the only way you can come up with enough questions to find an honest conclusion. UW was extremely accommodating and supportive offering up the library and professors for free. Virginia Mason was also very accommodating! One of my favorite sayings left me from Duke was, "Only when you know all of the questions can you come up with some of the answers." For seamheads like me the medical research was some of the more fun, fascinating and rewarding work I've ever done. But I'd hate to go to school for half my life just to realize I'm eternally in debt for the remainder of my life. Where is the "better" in that?
My nephew has some real fancy letters at the end of his name after a young life spent at school. Don't think he has hunted since graduation and he tells me he hardly gets to fish because he is too poor / can't take the time away from work. Screw that!!
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 09, 2015, 12:40:01 PM
I've had one bow kill that took out the aorta...that buck was down in 3 seconds :yike:
Post by: RadSav on December 09, 2015, 12:43:08 PM
I'm glad old Duke told you to interview physicians vs. graphic designers.
Oh he did that too! Even sent me to sales and merchandizing school. :chuckle:
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 09, 2015, 12:44:38 PM
Post by: Elkrunner on December 09, 2015, 12:47:58 PM
Unlike other organs of the body the heart is actually a cardiac muscle. Just striking the heart doesn't necessarily mean it has holes in it or that there should be massive blood loss. Especially in the ventricle (compression) region of the heart where the muscle is thicker and stronger. You have to break through the endocardium and reach the ventricle chambers for massive blood loss to happen at the pointed end of the heart. That's tough if the head is dull, traveling slow or the cuts are shallow.
In that area of the heart there are no major Nodes. Only Purkinje fibers. So while a strike like that will effect cardiac conduction it can not shut it down like a strike to the SA node, AV nodes or the central bundles.
This shot would undoubtedly collapse the pericardium. This effects rhythm to some extent and definitely make the animal weak. And since the wounds would be great enough the heart will begin to work harder trying to maintain a strong flow of blood to the brain. The pericardium usually controls the pressure around the heart so the extra blood flow does not over expand the heart. Without it there the heart could possibly tear itself and eventually the small cuts could become bigger and more lethal. Hard to tell without inspection if that really is what happened here.
The pointed area of the heart is not surrounded by major lung tissue either. So suffocation would take a very long time and blood loss would be slow.
IMO, you were very smart to wait until morning to try and recover this animal. Deer likely died from either cardiogenic shock from the damaged Purkinje fibers and damaged pericardium, or hypothermia. Neither being extremely fast killers. But by backing off and waiting he should have gone without undue stress and with minimal discomfort. By far the best of the possible scenarios under this unfortunate situation. And much more humane than the average death in the wild.
Rad, I really need to start hanging with you to soak in some of that brain trust...very informative as always.
Post by: Encore 280 on December 09, 2015, 01:26:25 PM
Post by: huntindoc on December 09, 2015, 05:16:33 PM
One other thought on heart shots- I've noted some animals when hit in the top of the heart go straight down. Like you shoot them in the brain. Others will lunge around a bit, then go down. Also seen the "perfect shot" go ~400 yrds.
With a rifle shot, if you hit the heart muscle (myocardium) during the contraction phase of the heart beat (systole), the vascular tree (vessels running to the brain) are at max blood pressure. You smack the heart with a high energy projectile, that pressure wave has got to spike dramatically, and should in effect blow out the small vessels in the brain. I've never looked that close, but it could explain why sometimes they go down immediately. Something to consider any way. Anyone looked that close at the brain? Might be hard to see the tiny bleeds.
Had one buck I shot with a Montec through the humerus. Sounded like I shot a 2x4 board. The arrow went through the bone, into the heart. Buck jerked the close leg back, pulled the arrow out of the heart, then ran, effectively jamming the broad head back through the heart. Buck ran over 100 yrds with 3 "Y"shaped holes in the heart. Pretty cool, but I do not understand how he made it that far. Really doesn't make physiologic sense.
Post by: sakoshooter on December 11, 2015, 07:01:49 PM
Post by: ShooterBull on December 13, 2015, 09:51:54 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ShooterBull on December 13, 2015, 09:53:22 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ShooterBull on December 13, 2015, 09:55:14 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ShooterBull on December 13, 2015, 09:55:48 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: lokidog on December 14, 2015, 04:43:29 AM
Post by: Curly on December 14, 2015, 10:05:42 AM
:tup: