Post by: Old Dog on August 03, 2015, 11:24:12 PM
Day 4. When I took her to RJ, she was pulling me all over the field to get to the bird.
"https://www.facebook.com/173261679386790/videos/905383836174567/"
Day 11. Is she pointing, or is she standing game? :dunno: I'm going with pointing, but I paid good money for that result, so I'm biased. :chuckle:
"https://www.facebook.com/173261679386790/videos/909037482475869/"
Post by: constructeur on August 07, 2015, 05:01:42 PM
Post by: Old Dog on August 07, 2015, 10:34:34 PM
How do you do it?
Post by: constructeur on August 08, 2015, 07:45:04 PM
In my experience the method for getting a dog to stop rushing and start pointing is to set up pigeons in a launcher and as soon as the dog breaks, the bird is launched. Eventually the dog puts it together that it's pressuring the bird into launching, and stops the behaviour.
I don't want to come across as being critical of someone who's trained way more dogs that I have, I just have never seen that method and am curious about it myself.
Post by: Old Dog on August 10, 2015, 11:53:21 AM
In my experience the method for getting a dog to stop rushing and start pointing is to set up pigeons in a launcher and as soon as the dog breaks, the bird is launched. Eventually the dog puts it together that it's pressuring the bird into launching, and stops the behaviour.
Thanks for the PM.
A little back ground may help you understand my problem better.
I have a small game bird farm. I got careless when Jasmine was about 9 month old, and she was able to get to and kill nearly 20 chukar. From that point on her prey drive has been incredible, but of course she did not point.
I tried for nearly a year to use the method you suggested, and it just did not work with Jasmine. One of my training partners made the observation "that dog just doesn't have quit in her". RJ Marquart has a reputation for working with "problem dogs", and another of my training partners was taking her dog to him, so I called, and set up a time for him to do an assessment of Jasmine. I liked what I saw , so I wrote a check and left her with RJ.
I saw Jasmine at a training clinic RJ held at Scatter Creek Saturday, and I am very happy with what he has accomplished with my dog, so it is obvious that his methods work. I have learned one thing through all this, and that is not all dogs respond to training the same. It's our job as trainers to recognize this, and be willing to try different methods.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on August 10, 2015, 12:11:10 PM
Did you ask what the logic behind giving the dog the 'win/prize' (the bird and the retrieve) even though it's not acting as it should? I've never heard of or have seen that before.
This is a good little list on how RJ's methods work....
http://quicksilverkennels.com/?page_id=147
Post by: constructeur on August 10, 2015, 04:29:46 PM
I don't want to come across as being critical of someone who's trained way more dogs that I have, I just have never seen that method and am curious about it myself.
or maybe you didn't. Whatever 8).
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 10, 2015, 04:59:32 PM
show me his skills on wild chukar....Did you ask what the logic behind giving the dog the 'win/prize' (the bird and the retrieve) even though it's not acting as it should? I've never heard of or have seen that before.
This is a good little list on how RJ's methods work....
http://quicksilverkennels.com/?page_id=147
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 10, 2015, 05:01:28 PM
Post by: Old Dog on August 10, 2015, 07:30:08 PM
Post by: wildweeds on August 10, 2015, 09:56:23 PM
Ya gotta learn to walk before you can run. The next step would be wild sharptail in Montana for a month, but I'm outa funds. :(
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 11, 2015, 10:17:36 AM
whatever you wanna call it, steady to wing and shot or WSF... if they both mean the final product is the dog doesnt move till sent thats fine... all I'm saying is it isnt a 2 month long process...most pros are only working your dog for 15 to 30 mins a day and the rest is you paying for the dog to stay there... It is much better for you and the dog to be "coached" by a pro and do it by yourself then to have him do it all... much cheaper also...You also benefit with a better bond and get more respect out of the dog if you do it yourself and your next dog you will know how to go about doing it without a pro...more of an investment in your future as a trainer/handler...
just my 1 pennys worth...didnt mean to pee in anyones cornflakes....
Post by: Old Dog on August 11, 2015, 11:13:04 AM
It is much better for you and the dog to be "coached" by a pro and do it by yourself then to have him do it all... much cheaper also...You also benefit with a better bond and get more respect out of the dog if you do it yourself and your next dog you will know how to go about doing it without a pro...more of an investment in your future as a trainer/handler...
just my 1 pennys worth...didnt mean to pee in anyones cornflakes....
All is good, and I agree the best trial dog in the world isn't much good if it can't transition to wild birds, but you need to re-read my original post.
I made some mistakes in training Jasmine, so I took her to RJ Marquart for a month of professional training. He warned me up front that a month may not be enough, and that it all depends on Jasmine.
In my original post I neglected to add that the Montana training is on wild sharp tails. In addition the work with Jasmine I have had two days of "coaching" with one more session to go.
Keep the comments coming, but let's agree to disagree. :brew:
Post by: jetjockey on August 11, 2015, 11:19:48 AM
As for training, I agree, and disagree. If your paying a Pro to only train on pigeons and birds shot out of a release, that is something that you can do by yourself and not pay for. On the other hand, a Pro who will run your dogs on wild birds during the offseason on a regular basis is priceless. How many people have wild birds available to train on enough to make a good bird dog? Almost none! That's where paying a Pro is money well spent. You can't train a dog how to hunt wild birds unless the dog is put on LOTS and LOTS of wild birds!!
Post by: wildweeds on August 11, 2015, 12:24:37 PM
Post by: jetjockey on August 11, 2015, 01:38:00 PM
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 11, 2015, 04:32:30 PM
It's a 2 month process with an extra month for "polish".A reward based system works,you trick the dog into doing it right and then you reward it. For instance you go to work,you do a job,and you get paid for it. Constant fly away birds is a paycheck the dog never sees,a dead bird in it's mouth is it's paycheck.There are alot of fly away broke dogs in trialing and you can see which ones they are,their style drops significantly at the flush of the bird because they know to stand still or they get zapped or hit in training.The dog that is rewarded stands taller waiting for the fly away bird to fall to the ground.depends on the prey drive also...my dog was broke in 1 day steady through wing... wing and shot took an additional 2 days. that 1st day only took about 10 birds... still after that initial day he is perfect and his style gets really intense when the bird flies away. how it works is to take the chase out of the dog first by flighting pigeons by hand then when the dog go to chase you apply the e collar on constant until he stops. make him stand until you tap on his head to release... put him in his dog box for 20 mins to think about it... then do again until he is stopping with no e collar pressure at the sight of a flighted bird... then move to a bird in a launcher down wind of him and let him work towards it and release like a wild flush when he gets close and like above you apply e collar pressure if he doesn't stop at the flight of the bird(no scent involved with it down wind). do that until he slams to a stop when that bird is launched... then you move to the launcher upwind and let him point the bird then you move in to flush and when the bird flies and he moves you do the same as above... IF HE DOESNT POINT THE BIRD RELEASE IT AS HE GETS IN THE SCENT CONE THEN APPLY E COLLAR PRESSURE AFTER THE BIRD IS IN THE AIR! NEVER WHEN HE CAN SMELL THE BIRD AND IT IS ON THE GROUND. a few times of this and I promise the dog will slam on point and not move...Basically the concept is the dog owns that bird as long as it stays on the ground but when its in the air it no longer belongs to him... most high prey drive dogs ARE COMPLETELY REWARDED BY THE CHASE ALONE! once they know they cant chase and they don't get a bird all reward is gone until they keep the bird on the ground AKA pointing... not to mention stop to flush is now already done for you.... I am willing to demonstrate this to anyone... and if it doesn't work I owe you lunch... I bet we could have that dog solid in a weekend... but yes agree to disagree always... not trying to make enemies just trying to help out as I have just went through this with my dog and was taught this by a pro. I have now helped another guy learn this method with a very stubborn high drive dog and we had his broke in a day also...
Post by: Shannon on August 11, 2015, 05:13:54 PM
The hard part is staying there with most hard charging dogs.
Post by: syoungs on August 11, 2015, 05:27:52 PM
Post by: jetjockey on August 11, 2015, 05:29:28 PM
Post by: constructeur on August 11, 2015, 05:50:47 PM
Larry- Best of luck with Jasmine. I hope you're stoning birds over her this Fall. :tup:
Post by: wildweeds on August 11, 2015, 06:06:12 PM
There's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial.
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 11, 2015, 06:46:25 PM
B#llsh!t. Sorry, but I'll call it as I see it! You don't break a dog in 2 days. And I know lots of Pros as well. The type of Pros who win the AKC Nationals! You don't break a dog in two days. Especially if you want a decent dog.
My dog breaks when it hits the ground... that's it... and yes total time to get there was 3 days.... I can prove it... so like I stated above he is broke steady through shot. ( going by NAVHDA and their definition of W S F. give me another solid week of the fall part on planted birds and my dog wont move... Only reason why I stopped where I was at is because its FF time and he is now done, but yes like Shannon stated above. the dog isn't truly broke unless you can do all that on wild birds. My dog knows it'll be hell to pay if he moves...
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 11, 2015, 07:01:37 PM
What's a months worth of training run? My lab is doing good with all training, but I don't have the time/resources to upland train him, so was thinking about sending him off for a few months when it's time.
500 to 700 seems to be the average.
Post by: jetjockey on August 11, 2015, 07:03:10 PM
Post by: wildweeds on August 11, 2015, 07:25:37 PM
Post by: JODakota on August 11, 2015, 07:26:43 PM
B#llsh!t. Sorry, but I'll call it as I see it! You don't break a dog in 2 days. And I know lots of Pros as well. The type of Pros who win the AKC Nationals! You don't break a dog in two days. Especially if you want a decent dog.
Agreed.
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 11, 2015, 07:36:41 PM
Keep telling yourselves that. Breaking when it hits the ground, when a shot is fired, blah blah blah. It ain't broke to wing and shot. You don't break a dog in 2 or 3 days. I don't finish my dogs because I dont have thousands of acres of wild birds to train on several days a week. I pay someone for that, and it's the best investment money can buy in the bird dog world. You will never hear me apologize for that. That doesn't mean I don't know what is possible. I fully understand that some dogs essentially break themselves, but that's the dog, and you breed for that. My dog doesn't break because she's worried there will be hell to pay. She doesn't break because she's learned to appreciate the find and the flush. When a dog can appreciate that, while standing tall and proud as the bird flys off, and even falls, you truly have a nice bird dog.
obviously not completely broke... but I guarantee it wont take me even a month to be completely broke... But remember, when a trainer says it takes 2 months that translates to 30 mins tops a day for 2 months... add that 30 mins up across 2 months and what do you have? 30 hrs of total training on your dog if the trainer doesn't take a day off. when I train its about 6 hrs a session, during the weekdays its up to 2 hrs a session just to rehearse what he has learned and to maintain it. It really comes down to how bad do you want it and the time you are willing to invest in your dog. 3 days of 30 mins a day...no you cant break a dog. I was just stating the progress I got in 3 days time at about 6 hrs each session from a dog that was a hard headed hard charging dog that was sooo dishonest that he wouldn't even point anymore. My dog doesn't worry about hell to pay...he knows it... he is still fiery bold and confident and he has polished out to have a ton of style for a versatile dog, you could lay a yard stick on his back head to tail now... I am not concerned with his "style"as I am not out there to be the most stylish...but yes a lot of it has to do with the breeding I agree. IMO the good dogs are the ones that are always pushing the limits... But how do you know it cant be done if you haven't done any of it yourself? I mean the trainers are thankful as they need to keep their lights on and bills paid....Just calling it what it is right?
Post by: jetjockey on August 11, 2015, 07:40:32 PM
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 11, 2015, 07:43:10 PM
A dog that breaks when the bird hits the ground is................Steady to wing that has been the definition since before our grandfathers were young boys,my grandfather would be 104.Steady to wing and shot is the dog doesn't move until released with a verbal or physical cue such as a tap behind the head or to the withers.
well I am going by the NAVHDA standards as that is what I get judged by.
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 11, 2015, 07:47:08 PM
6hrs a day of training with the same dog? Seriously?yes sir... but only cause he keeps on wanting more... that's a weekend of training though not everyday... during the week he lounges around the house all day then goes out for his 1-2 hrs of "practicing what we've learned" and then let him run/swim it off after...
Post by: jetjockey on August 11, 2015, 07:55:29 PM
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 11, 2015, 08:21:51 PM
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. I can't handle 6 hours of training a day. There's a reason Pros keep serious training to about 30 minutes a day of less. Don't take this the wrong way, but your not helping your dog.
I mean he gets his breaks, its not solid 6 hrs. I'm usually out there for 8 total. but I am now realizing that its apples to oranges really as I am a navhda guy and don't train for style really and you guys have to with AKC and trials and stuff so I get that. yes us versatile guys don't really have a ton of style to begin with and we aren't judged on it so we can get away with more pressure. there is noooo doubt your dogs will have More style with that 12 0clock tail and all...
Post by: wildweeds on August 11, 2015, 10:22:58 PM
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. I can't handle 6 hours of training a day. There's a reason Pros keep serious training to about 30 minutes a day of less. Don't take this the wrong way, but your not helping your dog.
I mean he gets his breaks, its not solid 6 hrs. I'm usually out there for 8 total. but I am now realizing that its apples to oranges really as I am a navhda guy and don't train for style really and you guys have to with AKC and trials and stuff so I get that. yes us versatile guys don't really have a ton of style to begin with and we aren't judged on it so we can get away with more pressure. there is noooo doubt your dogs will have More style with that 12 0clock tail and all...
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 12, 2015, 02:25:40 AM
I have seen versatile dogs with 12 oclock tails,Wirehairs/vislas/German shorthairs and even a couple of verminrunnin weimeraners.They would have lots of style but IMO versatile owners start applying the hammer and turning the screws way to young.BTW you can't train for "Style" the dog is born with it.Excessive training and training tactics knock it out of them.Oh ya I've seen them also, just not as important to most versatile guys. But agree you can take away a lot of style that the dog is born with by too much pressure. It just depends on what style means to you. I like a straight tail and lower head. It really depends on the dog too some can handle more pressure others can't. It takes experience reading dogs to determine methods used to train a dog. Some it may take longer or shorter they all are different. Sorry about the long drawn out bickering, old dog, I'm sure RJ will do a fine job as I've yet to see him not do so, and that's awesome you are doing sessions so you get something from it also...Sorry, but that's ridiculous. I can't handle 6 hours of training a day. There's a reason Pros keep serious training to about 30 minutes a day of less. Don't take this the wrong way, but your not helping your dog.
I mean he gets his breaks, its not solid 6 hrs. I'm usually out there for 8 total. but I am now realizing that its apples to oranges really as I am a navhda guy and don't train for style really and you guys have to with AKC and trials and stuff so I get that. yes us versatile guys don't really have a ton of style to begin with and we aren't judged on it so we can get away with more pressure. there is noooo doubt your dogs will have More style with that 12 0clock tail and all...
Post by: jetjockey on August 12, 2015, 05:39:56 AM
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 12, 2015, 08:06:39 AM
It's not just style your taking away. Your also taking away the confidence, the independence, and setting yourself up to get a dog that blinks. All those things go hand in hand. Breaking a dog naturally takes away a dogs confidence because your asking it to do something that isnt natural. Good trainers will build a dogs confidence up by letting it run, chase birds, bump birds, and build its confidence and independence. When you break a dog, you naturally lose some of that confidence and independence. However, after the breaking process the dog will typically regain that co fire cd, and more, but only if you instilled the confidence to begin with. If you break a dog too early and really hammer down in it, they often never get that confidence back. You may have a dog that can pass a NAVHDA test on released birds in a controlled situation, but that dog won't have he confidence to be a great wild bird dog because they are afraid if they do anything wrong they will get zapped. And believe me, with wild birds, they will screw up. That's the reason you don't break a dog until it's ready, and the reason you take your time and do it right as to not create a robot.agree 100% the dog needs to have a strong prey drive going and be ready like you said to be broke. my dog wasnt ready for that pressure till he was a yr old. pretty much when he is insane out of control on birds...I did notice the initial lack of confidence and hunting close but a dog with a strong prey drive like you said will open back up... my dog even after all that needs to be reigned in a bit as he gets out there pretty quick. he ranges about 300 yards pretty honestly. if I let him range out further he tends to be more dishonest on birds. my comfortable range with him is 300 yds right now. but I do understand not all dogs can take that... I'm learning also....
Post by: AspenBud on August 12, 2015, 09:43:07 AM
Training is a matter of taste and what a venue requires.
Plenty of trial dogs can point a wild bird for an eternity. That's not where some might break down in chukar hunting. It's the physical demands that might be a problem if a dog hasn't been conditioned for it.
NAVHDA favors dogs that work more robotically. What field trial dogs are expected to do would be considered "self hunting" under NAVHDA. Nothing wrong with either, but the expectations and demands are different.
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 12, 2015, 10:07:18 AM
NSTRA does not require your dog to be steady to shot if memory serves. You shoot and the dog starts running and that's okay. If someone can say otherwise please speak up. But as far as I know national champion NSTRA dogs are trained that way as some believe it helps the dogs find the birds they must retrieve.very well said...
Training is a matter of taste and what a venue requires.
Plenty of trial dogs can point a wild bird for an eternity. That's not where some might break down in chukar hunting. It's the physical demands that might be a problem if a dog hasn't been conditioned for it.
NAVHDA favors dogs that work more robotically. What field trial dogs are expected to do would be considered "self hunting" under NAVHDA. Nothing wrong with either, but the expectations and demands are different.
Post by: AspenBud on August 12, 2015, 12:02:42 PM
That's cause your in the south and good ol redneck boys ain't got soft hearts against killing pen raised birds.Birds out here are at a premium,with 12-15 dollars for a chukar the cheapest part of training a dog is what people are the cheapest about.They try to recycle birds with cardboard/hoses and blank gunsThe whole scenario is phoney and fake.There's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial.
If money is the concern you buy some homers and let them breed. Then purchase a small number of actual game birds and don't kill them. Instead you plant your game bird(s) and pigeon(s) and launch the pigeon(s) if the dog creeps. The pigeon flies home and the game bird can be reused next time too. If a dead bird is necessary the same exercise works, just shoot the pigeon and not the game bird.
Homing pigeons are cheap for dog training, even more so if you have a pen of them that reproduce. They also frequently flush better than pen raised chukar and quail making them the superior choice for stop to flush training imo.
Post by: Old Dog on August 12, 2015, 12:09:49 PM
Now back to our original programing. :chuckle:
Here's a link to a video of the clinic RJ put for the NW pointing Labrador Club last Sat. The video is kind of long, :sry: and the clip of Jasmine is very short. :'(
feature=youtu.be
I remain very pleased with the results so far. Next step is to do it off lead. ;)
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 12, 2015, 02:46:42 PM
Exactly how I do it. Although I got some racing homers instead. But that chukar and pigeon setup works really well.That's cause your in the south and good ol redneck boys ain't got soft hearts against killing pen raised birds.Birds out here are at a premium,with 12-15 dollars for a chukar the cheapest part of training a dog is what people are the cheapest about.They try to recycle birds with cardboard/hoses and blank gunsThe whole scenario is phoney and fake.There's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial.
If money is the concern you buy some homers and let them breed. Then purchase a small number of actual game birds and don't kill them. Instead you plant your game bird(s) and pigeon(s) and launch the pigeon(s) if the dog creeps. The pigeon flies home and the game bird can be reused next time too. If a dead bird is necessary the same exercise works, just shoot the pigeon and not the game bird.
Homing pigeons are cheap for dog training, even more so if you have a pen of them that reproduce. They also frequently flush better than pen raised chukar and quail making them the superior choice for stop to flush training imo.
Yeah I saw the clinic video.... Looks good.. I would like to talk with RJ about why he tosses the dead bird after shoot to miss. Seems like he has something there...
Post by: AspenBud on August 12, 2015, 03:12:56 PM
Exactly how I do it. Although I got some racing homers instead. But that chukar and pigeon setup works really well.That's cause your in the south and good ol redneck boys ain't got soft hearts against killing pen raised birds.Birds out here are at a premium,with 12-15 dollars for a chukar the cheapest part of training a dog is what people are the cheapest about.They try to recycle birds with cardboard/hoses and blank gunsThe whole scenario is phoney and fake.There's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial.
If money is the concern you buy some homers and let them breed. Then purchase a small number of actual game birds and don't kill them. Instead you plant your game bird(s) and pigeon(s) and launch the pigeon(s) if the dog creeps. The pigeon flies home and the game bird can be reused next time too. If a dead bird is necessary the same exercise works, just shoot the pigeon and not the game bird.
Homing pigeons are cheap for dog training, even more so if you have a pen of them that reproduce. They also frequently flush better than pen raised chukar and quail making them the superior choice for stop to flush training imo.
Yeah I saw the clinic video.... Looks good.. I would like to talk with RJ about why he tosses the dead bird after shoot to miss. Seems like he has something there...
Honestly I think a person can get a lot done with just pigeons. The dogs figure out the real thing fairly quick once they get some contacts. The only time that dogs run in Cover Dog trials encounter ruffed grouse is when they are run on them in the wild. Everything prior to that, unless the trainer started them on something else in another part of the country or got in the woods outside the quiet season with a pup, is generally pen raised fowl that smell or behave nothing like a lake states grouse.
Post by: JBar on August 12, 2015, 03:40:12 PM
All right, a good discourse. :tup:
Now back to our original programing. :chuckle:
Here's a link to a video of the clinic RJ put for the NW pointing Labrador Club last Sat. The video is kind of long, :sry: and the clip of Jasmine is very short. :'(
feature=youtu.be
I remain very pleased with the results so far. Next step is to do it off lead. ;)
Guys instead of continuing to Jack Larrys' thread why don't you start another discussion. :tup: Jas is looking good Larry!! Was going to send my dog to RJ also but we're working through her problems pretty good.
Post by: Shannon on August 12, 2015, 08:53:56 PM
Post by: Old Dog on August 19, 2015, 11:20:01 PM
https://www.facebook.com/173261679386790/videos/918204921559125/
I go for a visit this Friday. Originally it was to bring her home, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to send her to Montana with RJ, so it will probably just be a progress report. I'll try to get some video.
Post by: Old Dog on August 25, 2015, 10:39:02 PM
We transitioned from pigeons to game birds while I was there. Jasmine got it in one. :IBCOOL:
https://www.facebook.com/100000793566551/videos/894637607239350/