Post by: timberghost72 on August 30, 2015, 12:03:12 PM
Here is what I have:
Remington 700 BDL 24" in 30-06
I am loading Barnes 165gr TSX bullets. In past I have loaded strictly from the Barnes manual and set my C.O.A.L. to 3.218" and I have not had many issues with this load. I recently bought a Hornady overall length gauge with comparator set. I have measured for my max overall length to the lands and I am getting a measurement of 3.41" (to tip of bullet) or 2.83" to ogive.
I took 10 measurements of each and averaged it out to get these numbers. I am 100% confident I am doing this correctly as I have already done this with my 300 WSM and specs come out exactly as the Barnes manual recomends :IBCOOL:
So given these numbers and seating the bullet .050" off the lands, my overall length would be 3.36" (2.78" to ogive).
As stated earlier,I've been loading at 3.218" (recommended book length) so that would be giving me a jump of .192" total which is a long ways.
Should I set my length at the measurement of .050" off the lands @ 3.36" or go by the book? This is a big difference so not sure what to do.
I loaded a dummy round (no powder or primer) to 3.36" and it chambered ok and did not push the bullet further into the case.
So this would suggest it would be ok to seat my bullets at this spec even though it is quite a bit longer than suggested. The bullet just looks like it is not in far enough :dunno:.
Here are some pics.
The first one is compared to book length of 3.218" to max length (touching lands) at 3.41"
The second is compared to book length of 3.218" to .050" off the lands at 3.36"
Thanks for any help and suggestions.
Tony
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 12:22:27 PM
Most all of my newer rifles are cut long. .150 or even more.All of mine are better with the longer coal.
Also it would be best if you use a chrono.Dont know if you have one or not.
Post by: timberghost72 on August 30, 2015, 12:32:15 PM
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 12:54:54 PM
Post by: Jason on August 30, 2015, 12:56:47 PM
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 01:12:08 PM
Post by: timberghost72 on August 30, 2015, 01:14:06 PM
Post by: Curly on August 30, 2015, 01:34:30 PM
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 01:40:32 PM
Post by: 2labs on August 30, 2015, 01:43:35 PM
I wonder why. :yeah: does the tsx have a different shape than others.Where did this info come from or is it your specific set up your referring to?Ive been wanting to check these out in .300 win mag.Thanks in advance.
Yea they are very long bullet and have a lot hanging out past the Ogive. :twocents:
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 01:47:31 PM
Post by: Hilltop123 on August 30, 2015, 01:48:48 PM
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Sorry this was for all that posted in this thread.I just want to see that the ones giving advice actually know what they are saying lol.No offense to anyone either so please dont take none.I posted so I will say first that I have only been reloading for about 10 years and I am still learning from the new loaders and the ones that pioneered it. :tup:
Post by: Hilltop123 on August 30, 2015, 01:59:56 PM
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 02:01:23 PM
Why? Did Ogive throw you?No it did not.the part that threw me was you saying it to begin with.
Post by: 2labs on August 30, 2015, 02:08:29 PM
Now get off my lawn :yike:
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 02:09:57 PM
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 02:11:35 PM
Got a lee shot shell kit for Christmas when I was 12. Probably go to jail or get your kids yanked for that now. To answer your question, probably as long as you've been alive.What is this even supposed to mean?Are you trying to cause an issue?
Now get off my lawn :yike:
Post by: 2labs on August 30, 2015, 02:14:40 PM
Lighten up.
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 02:16:21 PM
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 02:18:09 PM
Post by: timberghost72 on August 30, 2015, 02:31:59 PM
To the op. Im sure you know but ill say it since it was brought up.Every bullet style weight whatever should have its own data.The C.O.AL will be different.For a Berger vs a Hornady.
I understand that. I am only loading one bullet type right now but bullet type is not relative to my questions since my issue will affect all bullets used.
It just seems my chamber is longer than it should be given the load data between overall length of it and recomended bullet seating depth for overall length. For this rifle, loading .050" off the lands is still much longer than recomended C.O.A.L.
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 02:37:27 PM
Post by: timberghost72 on August 30, 2015, 02:46:32 PM
Yes sir agreed 100% :yeah:.Reason in 1 word,Lawsuits,Insurance is another 1 word. :tup:The more room to lands the less the pressure is.
This does not make sense. If I load to manufacturer specs wouldn't I be raising my pressure since my bullet seating depth is further into the case :dunno: This would also give me a .142" bullet jump as opposed to the .050" recommended jump. Maybe I will give Barnes a call.
Post by: Hilltop123 on August 30, 2015, 03:02:39 PM
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 30, 2015, 03:03:42 PM
Post by: Old Man Now on August 30, 2015, 03:15:33 PM
For some reason tsx bullets usually do well with more jump than some other bullets might like. Barnes recommends 0.050 jump to start with. I'd probably work up a load at that length and then adjust seating depth from there to fine tune it. :twocents:Roger on that!
I have loaded the Barnes X bullets for about 22 yrs now (bought 100's of them) in five different calibers and I have found it to be correct - seat them to 50's off riflings - in your case that would be around 2.83 - 50's = 2.33. All my rifles are the Rem. 700's.
But, I also shoot all Moly coated bullets and seat them 50's from the Ojive and the 7mag/270 Win. are extremly accurate with the "x" bullet.
Post by: timberghost72 on August 30, 2015, 03:24:13 PM
Are you confused or concerned as to why the deviation from sammi specs?
No I'm not confused (Good thing. That could complicate things :chuckle:) I guess it is more of a concern and wanted to get opinions and suggestions. I have no problem loading up at .050" off the lands making my OAL longer than book specs. I just have not seen that large of a difference in any of my other rifles.
My 300 WSM is measures out exactly to the .001" of what my Barnes book lists so that is why I am questioning my other caliber/rifle and it's (seemingly) large difference in what I found. If this is normal, then no problem. I just have not seen this before with my limited experience.
Post by: timberghost72 on August 30, 2015, 03:26:31 PM
if you put the ogive on or even into the rifling the pressure can spike.Seating the bullet deeper doesnt seem to make much of a diff. in pressure.there are a lot of loads that are 100% loaded with powder
Good to know :tup: Makes sense.
Post by: Old Man Now on August 30, 2015, 03:37:11 PM
I can't remember the last time that I ever loaded a shell to the C.O.A.L., it's been many years.
Here is what I have been using for last 25 years, I like it much better than the one you are using, I gave the one like yours away. http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/sinclair-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod34262.aspx (http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/sinclair-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod34262.aspx)
Post by: swift on August 31, 2015, 07:47:53 AM
And I have been hand loading for 25 years
Run them as long as you can !
Post by: timberghost72 on August 31, 2015, 08:42:29 AM
You can load up to as long as your mag will allow , bUT you need to have 1/3 of bullet diameter as min seating depth ! All my weatherby rifles are the same it's called Freebore or Throat and is to help with high PSI spikes
And I have been hand loading for 25 years
Run them as long as you can !
This is what I was trying to get answered in a long winded way :chuckle: Sorry for not explaining myself too good. So with this, a .308" bullet would have a minimum of around .1027" seating depth into the case? 1/3 of bullet length is what I was originally thinking.
Post by: nastybynature on August 31, 2015, 10:17:01 AM
My 700 30-06 likes oal of 3.450 (30 thousandths off landing) with the 180 gr nosler accubonds over 49gr of 4064. This has given me a velocity of 2634fps with very little variation (30fps) over the 10 round test average.
I know you are running a different bullet but hoped this might give you some reference.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Post by: magnumb on August 31, 2015, 10:52:25 AM
For some reason tsx bullets usually do well with more jump than some other bullets might like. Barnes recommends 0.050 jump to start with. I'd probably work up a load at that length and then adjust seating depth from there to fine tune it. :twocents:
This is exactly right and it comes directly from Barnes. I've loaded the TSX's and TSX's since the first batches came out and found the 0.050 initial seating depth to be correct. All my seating depths go a bit deeper than that as my only concern then becomes wringing out the most accurate seating depth.
The design of a particular bullet is huge in handloading. The 0.050 applies to the TTSX's and TSX's, while not necessarily applying to the earlier 'X' bullets, also produced by Barnes. The 'load 'em to the lands (riflings)' mantra of old can still produce results that we desire, but it also most certainly needs to be done by both a experienced handloader and one that doesn't push for the most velocity possible. Increased pressures are to be expected the longer the COAL.
The particular Barnes bullets I've mentioned using all benefit from this modification of handloading protocols of old, as far as eeking out the most accuracy in relation to COAL's. The design of all bullets and the accuracy that one can achieve, truly do depend on finding the perfect COAL.
For me, that process is both fun and so far has been very rewarding.
Good luck....
Post by: TVHunts on August 31, 2015, 05:03:26 PM
I use Barnes 210 gr. TSX FB in a 338 WM and 270 gr TSX FB in my 375 H&H. Both are seated closer to .010 off and both factory rifles will hold under 3/4" MOA. Personally I wouldn't concern myself what the OAL is as long as you aren't closer than .050, have the mag well room and, go with the length that gives you the best accuracy. I'd take accuracy over speed every time.
Curious though, if your needing to be conscious of spending money on components why don't you try Accubonds or a Hornady bullet? They are much more economical than the Barnes is. But I have to admit, I really like how the Barnes stay together, pedal out just like the pictures if you can recover them.
Good luck
Post by: timberghost72 on August 31, 2015, 06:29:24 PM
So I will start my loads at .050" off the lands and go with book specs on powder charge and go from there. Should be fun to see how different it performs from previous loads.
Thanks all. I'm sure more questions will come. I'll post results hopefully this weekend.
Post by: hub on August 31, 2015, 11:00:52 PM
Post by: timberghost72 on September 01, 2015, 09:54:27 AM
Post by: Bwana Bob on September 01, 2015, 10:29:11 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on September 01, 2015, 10:33:16 AM
I've got an older (2000 era) Savage rifle in .25-06 and nothing loaded from the factory fits in it anymore...all too long and contact the ogive.
It's actually the reason I got into hand-loads about 5 years ago. Some bullets definitely prefer to jump a little farther. I always start out with .050"
I am not as into it as many but when I can shoot tight, tight groups at 200 with a well constructed bullet then I am done experimenting.
Post by: Jonnyjammer on September 01, 2015, 02:29:14 PM
This is a good thread.This is odd to me.What I mean is that over time after a lot of shooting a rifle burns the throat of a rifle giving it a longer jump,Adding to your coal will revitalize an old rifle.Bringing back some lost accuracy. :twocents:
I've got an older (2000 era) Savage rifle in .25-06 and nothing loaded from the factory fits in it anymore...all too long and contact the ogive.
It's actually the reason I got into hand-loads about 5 years ago. Some bullets definitely prefer to jump a little farther. I always start out with .050"
I am not as into it as many but when I can shoot tight, tight groups at 200 with a well constructed bullet then I am done experimenting.
Post by: Jonathan_S on September 01, 2015, 02:35:55 PM
Post by: Jonnyjammer on September 01, 2015, 02:38:33 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on September 01, 2015, 02:48:02 PM
It's no big deal, just a custom job :chuckle:
Post by: Jonnyjammer on September 01, 2015, 02:50:12 PM
Post by: mazama on September 01, 2015, 05:23:57 PM
Post by: magnumb on September 02, 2015, 09:57:20 PM
This is a good thread.
I've got an older (2000 era) Savage rifle in .25-06 and nothing loaded from the factory fits in it anymore...all too long and contact the ogive.
It's actually the reason I got into hand-loads about 5 years ago. Some bullets definitely prefer to jump a little farther. I always start out with .050"
I am not as into it as many but when I can shoot tight, tight groups at 200 with a well constructed bullet then I am done experimenting.
FWIW - I've owned five 25-06's in the last 40 years. My current 25-06 is a T3 and I use 100gr. TTSX's over RL22 and 210M's. I never thought that I'd ever drop down under 110grs. in any 25-06, but these 100gr. TTSX's absolutely plant deer. As you may know, due to the TSX and TTSX construction, you can easily drop down a bullet weight or two and still get incredible results. These 100gr. TTSX's also get a bit more velocity and out of a 25-06, that's just more icing on the cake......IMO.
Again......submitted only as a FWIW.
Good luck!
Post by: Jonathan_S on September 03, 2015, 07:07:41 AM
Post by: timberghost72 on September 05, 2015, 06:27:18 PM
My previously loaded rounds at the shorter COAL grouped fairly well but the new loads at .050" off the lands grouped pretty well. Both lengths shot best with 54-55 grains of IMR 4350. I pulled two shots :bash:
I will have to work on my 300 WSM a lot more before I take that into the woods. The spread was around 2". It would work in a pinch but I want it to shoot better.
Also I recently put on Witt Machine muzzle brakes on my rifles and love them. They significantly reduced felt recoil and my shoulder is not as sore as usual.
Post by: Jonnyjammer on September 05, 2015, 06:52:20 PM
Post by: timberghost72 on September 05, 2015, 07:07:22 PM
Post by: TVHunts on September 06, 2015, 02:53:33 PM
I would be pretty happy with the 54 grain load and play with it a bit more. I'd sure try 54.5 next time if it were me. :twocents:
Post by: timberghost72 on September 06, 2015, 04:01:02 PM
That range sure looks like the infamous Everett Sportsman on Ebey Is.
I would be pretty happy with the 54 grain load and play with it a bit more. I'd sure try 54.5 next time if it were me. :twocents:
Yep and yep :chuckle:
That range is close and not crowded. I was thinking of the same load idea.
Post by: TVHunts on September 06, 2015, 05:10:49 PM
Not sure if your schedule allows it but Marysville Rifle Club is open each Thursday to the public from 10:00 - 4:30 and it is $10.00 for as many weapons as you choose to bring on the range. Much nicer people, not over bearing and, treat you with respect. We also have a 200 yd range and some gongs on the hill at 216 yds.
Post by: timberghost72 on September 06, 2015, 06:05:13 PM
I have not been to the Marysville range. I can't shoot at those times. What is the yearly membership and shooting times for members?
I was going to join the one in Lake Stevens/Machias but it has long wait and who knows when it will be fully operational again.
Post by: Caseknife on September 11, 2015, 04:32:40 PM