Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 11:52:26 AM
http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/246-Big-Horn-Pneumonia
Post by: woodywsu on January 15, 2009, 12:02:57 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 12:06:49 PM
And we are all worried that a tribal member might go up and kill a bighorn...? They are dying left and right. No lambs will equal no sheep when the adults die. Simple enough.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on January 15, 2009, 12:08:28 PM
Post by: woodywsu on January 15, 2009, 12:14:46 PM
Post by: Antlershed on January 15, 2009, 12:27:13 PM
Post by: woodywsu on January 15, 2009, 12:43:42 PM
Post by: Antlershed on January 15, 2009, 12:46:35 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on January 15, 2009, 12:55:02 PM
They (we?) make very little, if any, money off the leases. So, basically we're leasing our hunting and recreation property out at quite a loss.
Aside from disease, the impacts include lost plant material that should be going to wildlife food/cover, weeds spread by cattle and sheep, riparian habitat distrubance (severe), erosion from beaten paths...
Lamb chops anyone? :drool:
Post by: woodywsu on January 15, 2009, 01:08:45 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on January 15, 2009, 01:57:05 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 05:27:31 PM
The adults die from the disease, but sometimes they don't and they harbor the disease. They then pass it on to the young who are susceptible and the young all die. When the adults all die eventually, the population is not replenishing themselves. This is a huge problem all over, not just in Hell's Canyon and the Blue Mountains. This just happens to be one of the best place for the sheep and they are all dead or dying. We use to give out 10+ permits down in the southeast corner of the state and now we give out 1. The whole population is gone. It has been suggested we kill all the bighorns and start over re-populating the area. At this point it might be the best idea. These areas and Hell's Canyon weren't even at carrying capacity for sheep. This area can hold tons of big rams. History has shown us that this is one of the best habitats for sheep there in North America.
Who do we write to? Let's start with our game agencies. But most of them know the problems. They make big money off sheep and they are controlled by our politicians. We need to write our politicians in Idaho, Oregon, and Washington. At this point, the specific people should be determined and we need to start fixing this problem. I need to invite someone with more statisitics and information on the issue to this thread. Maybe we can get Ramslam on here and see if he can help us discuss the issue further. I have further information I can provide if I go look at some of my sources. The last time I heard, Idaho was dragging their feet the most. I just want people to be aware of this issue. I like elk, but no matter how many the tribes kill we still have tons of elk in this state. Bighorns, however, are limited and we lost about half the population and nobody blinked an eye. :twocents:
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2009, 05:31:12 PM
:dunno:
Its a really bad deal. Would Idaho politicians even listen to a Washington resident?
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2009, 05:32:15 PM
Post by: Red Dawg on January 15, 2009, 05:39:08 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 05:44:02 PM
http://www.kidk.com/news/local/8355107.html
Post by: runamuk on January 15, 2009, 05:55:01 PM
Lions are not a bigger issue. Whole herds of 60+ are getting wiped out. I have a minor in Range Management, and I'm ok with grazing and even public land allotments. However, domestic sheep have no place being close to bighorns.
The adults die from the disease, but sometimes they don't and they harbor the disease. They then pass it on to the young who are susceptible and the young all die. When the adults all die eventually, the population is not replenishing themselves. This is a huge problem all over, not just in Hell's Canyon and the Blue Mountains. This just happens to be one of the best place for the sheep and they are all dead or dying. We use to give out 10+ permits down in the southeast corner of the state and now we give out 1. The whole population is gone. It has been suggested we kill all the bighorns and start over re-populating the area. At this point it might be the best idea. These areas and Hell's Canyon weren't even at carrying capacity for sheep. This area can hold tons of big rams. History has shown us that this is one of the best habitats for sheep there in North America.
Who do we write to? Let's start with our game agencies. But most of them know the problems. They make big money off sheep and they are controlled by our politicians. We need to write our politicians in Idaho, Oregon, and Washington. At this point, the specific people should be determined and we need to start fixing this problem. I need to invite someone with more statisitics and information on the issue to this thread. Maybe we can get Ramslam on here and see if he can help us discuss the issue further. I have further information I can provide if I go look at some of my sources. The last time I heard, Idaho was dragging their feet the most. I just want people to be aware of this issue. I like elk, but no matter how many the tribes kill we still have tons of elk in this state. Bighorns, however, are limited and we lost about half the population and nobody blinked an eye. :twocents:
Hey Pope which disease are we talking about? I'd watch the video but at the moment it is loud in my house and our headphones died....
I lived in Idaho, I raised sheep, I knew sheep ranchers and I know that sheep are sheep are sheep so bighorns are not immune to domestic sheep issues. I'd like to know which disease we are talking about. Makes it easier to propose ideas solutions and people to write to. ;)
Idaho is one of the bigger lamb producers in the country so I can see the foot dragging also land leases in Idaho are huge business.
Post by: jackelope on January 15, 2009, 05:57:36 PM
Post by: Red Dawg on January 15, 2009, 05:59:33 PM
Post by: runamuk on January 15, 2009, 06:00:41 PM
pneumonia
hmmm there are several causes of pneumonia in sheep..... viral, bacterial, etc...would help me out...
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2009, 06:09:38 PM
Post by: runamuk on January 15, 2009, 06:12:16 PM
Its a bacteria or bacterium. I believe it was a mycoplasma. Similiar to our Mycoplasma Pneumonia if I remember right.
thanks Bone that helps.....
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 06:18:40 PM
Post by: Red Dawg on January 15, 2009, 06:29:10 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 06:58:43 PM
I think I just lost it today. Seeing the dying lambs here and there drives me nuts. The Hell's Canyon region could have 10,000 bighorns, but currently we have 900 at most. Imagine how many hunting permits we could have with 10,000 bighorns? There are indian paintings on rocks with bighorns in that region. They use to be very prevalent. It frustrates me when people are so worked up about 40 elk and hundreds of sheep are dying. Where are the priorities? I say someone on one of the indian threads say they better not go up and kill a sheep... They die every day on highway 97 and from pneumonia. Are you really worried about a tribal member going and killing 1 sheep? I guess I would, but let's look at the big picture.
Post by: runamuk on January 15, 2009, 06:59:27 PM
http://www.mwvcrc.org/bighorn/3Gonzales.pdf (http://www.mwvcrc.org/bighorn/3Gonzales.pdf)
http://www.mwvcrc.org/bighorn/3Besser.pdf (http://www.mwvcrc.org/bighorn/3Besser.pdf)
http://www.biotechnology.wsu.edu/participating_faculty/subramaniam_srikumaran.html (http://www.biotechnology.wsu.edu/participating_faculty/subramaniam_srikumaran.html)
It appears this issue is known to the scientific and wildlife community and is being studied.
I'd say letter writing supporting the continued work/research towards answers and possible solutions is in order.
http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs/rmrs_gtr209.pdf (http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs/rmrs_gtr209.pdf)
Sheep actually are not as stupid or weak as many believe, they are just different so some pathogens can cause major problems and there aren't many specialists in the field of sheep. Idaho has a great sheep program as does Montana and Cornell, and Oregon. Thats it 4 universities with some specialization in sheep. There are other researchers at other universities with interest but sheep are a pretty specialized species with a low value for spending.... this goes for domestic and wild. I think Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming are the largest sheep producers. Most of the US sheep products come from new zealand.
Anyway I may write a few of these researchers and try to learn more about what can be done and what is being done.
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2009, 07:23:32 PM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 15, 2009, 07:39:26 PM
A second cause is lungworm, also an Old World sheep disease, which also causes pneumonia. In herds with lungworm, lambs will be born and adults aren't usually affected - but all or most lambs will die before winter. Herds eventually blink out as the adults die and aren't replaced.
So far, the only effective measure is spatial separation. Even then, when subadult rams wander and disperse, they often come into contact domestic sheep or goats, and then present the danger they will bringthe infection to a bighorn herd. Thus, most of not all wild sheep states' wildlife agencies have policies that bighorns that contact domestic sheep should be killed ASAP (or, in the case of WA, killed if they cannot be captured and quarantined).
There's no state law against having domestic sheep in an occupied bighorn range, unfortunately. Forest Service and BLM both have policies that are supposed to prevent commingling, but then politics creep into the mix.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 07:44:09 PM
Post by: runamuk on January 15, 2009, 07:51:32 PM
The epizootic pneumonia outbreaks in bighorn sheep are caused by Pasteurella haemolytica, which evolved with Old World sheep, and which is endemic in them (both wild and domestic species) and causes no major disease issues for them. New World sheep lack exposure and immunity to P. haemolytica, and once exposed can remain dormant in individuals until they are stressed; then the disease breaks out, is highly infectious, and will kill 50-90+% of a bighorn herd. So far, no bighorns have developed immunity, though after 140 years of exposure some are more resistant than others (that just means the outbreaks and die-offs are less frequent). Outbreaks kill all sex and age classes.
A second cause is lungworm, also an Old World sheep disease, which also causes pneumonia. In herds with lungworm, lambs will be born and adults aren't usually affected - but all or most lambs will die before winter. Herds eventually blink out as the adults die and aren't replaced.
So far, the only effective measure is spatial separation. Even then, when subadult rams wander and disperse, they often come into contact domestic sheep or goats, and then present the danger they will bringthe infection to a bighorn herd. Thus, most of not all wild sheep states' wildlife agencies have policies that bighorns that contact domestic sheep should be killed ASAP (or, in the case of WA, killed if they cannot be captured and quarantined).
There's no state law against having domestic sheep in an occupied bighorn range, unfortunately. Forest Service and BLM both have policies that are supposed to prevent commingling, but then politics creep into the mix.
Out of curiosity...have they tried treating for lungworm? I don't mean entire populations obviously but in a research environment or in a small isolated population. Lungworm can be controlled with ivermectin so I am kinda curious.
I also wonder why after 140 years of exposure they have not developed immunity or more resistance, interesting....
I found this (note the date)
"J Wildl Dis, 1997 Oct, 33(4), 738 - 48
Evaluation of a multivalent Pasteurella haemolytica vaccine in bighorn sheep: safety and serologic responses"
"Our data demonstrate that this multivalent P . haemolytica vaccine is safe and stimulates marked antibody responses in bighorn sheep . Further evaluation of this vaccine as a tool in preventing and managing pasteurellosis in bighorn sheep appears warranted."
http://www.bionewsonline.com/x/2/pasteurella_b.htm (http://www.bionewsonline.com/x/2/pasteurella_b.htm)
Post by: runamuk on January 15, 2009, 08:05:10 PM
Runamuk, I know there are a bunch that deny the problem as one caused by domestic sheep. I've looked at the research and the real world examples. There are too many examples of herds doing well, they intermingle, then they all die. Like I said, it's like the topic of evolution. If you choose to turn your head at where the science is pointing, you can do that. I can say the grazing constituents are strong and like to throw a wrench in the spoke. I have read much of what Besser has said and the issue is fairly clear. This issue was being studied 15 years ago, and the consensus then was domestic sheep caused the problems. We are still researching it and can forever. The point is that when you put domestic sheep and bighorns in the same pen, the bighorns die. I can't tell you the exact reason why, but they do. That's all the research I need.
Pope I am not arguing with you....Domestic sheep are the vector they carry the disease, I am however also interested in a way to either treat or solve the problem, that does not force people to quit farming. Saying banning sheep from the west to save bighorns is really the same as saying ban guns to prevent shootings, doesn't really make sense.
I posted above a vaccine that appears at first study to have worked in bighorns, so why hasn't and aggressive vaccination program been undertaken?
Let me answer my own question, MONEY bighorn sheep are not a priority, there is very little money to made preventing their demise, and almost no money to be made on the vaccine......so 11-12 years ago this problem could have been well on its way to being eradicated but here we sit.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 08:31:46 PM
I'd love a cure, but it hasn't happened yet. So until then, we need to do what we can. Look to all the populations in wilderness areas free of domestic animals and they all appear stable. Never had a problem like this in the Frank Church Wilderness... Only near livestock do we have these issues. I certainly don't want to be the spokesman on this issue. I am just trying to bring some awareness to this problem and issue and put it in perspective with other issues.
With 10,000 sheep in Hell's Canyon, we could give out 300 tags a year. Imagine that? Just getting this one critical habitat protected would satisfy me.
Post by: Red Dawg on January 15, 2009, 08:38:24 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 08:43:50 PM
Post by: ramslam on January 15, 2009, 08:55:47 PM
I'm going to keep this response shorter.
Potential for contact with domestic sheep/goats is far more serious than wolves, cougars or tribal harvest. For Washingtonians it is an issue in Hells Canyon, Tieton, Swakane and others as well. Further expansion of those herds will not be pursued until domestic allotments are retired.
Reality is we are one wandering ram from a major die-off in all of our herds. I was in on a capture a couple years ago. We collared a young ram near the mouth of the Grande Ronde in Washington. After release he traveled up the GR and into Joseph Creek, then back down to the Snake River, then up the Snake River through the Chesnim herd in Oregon and eventually going as far south as the Imnaha. That fall he traveled north up the Snake, swam the Snake and settle into a ram group in the northern part of Unit 11 in Idaho. This one ram traveled through 5 different Hells Canyon bighorn herds. I think the same thing could happen with the Yakima river herds or Swakane, Chelan Butte, & Manson. One cough and 90% are dead.
The legal battle with the Payette NF in Idaho and the Shirt's Brothers will likely dictate public land management policy. Thus far court rulings have supported bighorn sheep. Much is yet to be learned about how the disease evolves in a die-off all both sides mostly agree seperation is key. Idaho Wool growers is well established and politics rules this game. Outgoing Ag Secretary Mark Rey recently issued a moratorium on ALL bighorn transplants on USFS land unless extensive evidence shows no contacts with domestic sheep is possible. This flies in the face of public policy which puts the management of wildlife in the hands of state agencies.
I have toured Dr. Sri's research facility at WSU numerous times and if anyone is ever in Pullman I highly suggest it. His endowed chair was mostly funded by WAFNAWS charter member Dr. Rocky Crate's estate. WAFNAWS is a proud annual contributor and will have a great story and pics in our June newsletter showcasing Dr Sri's successful raising of domestic sheep/bighorn crossed lambs that were born this past spring. He is studying this disease from a molecular level and is hoping to gain an understanding to transmission and resistance with the cross breeds.
The silver bullet would be a vaccine that could be administered to domestic sheep/goats that would reduce/prevent transmission. Most collaring projects I have been on involves some experimental vaccine that is given to the bighorns with minimal results. Ivermectin (for lung worm and scabies) and selenium are always given as well.
In the short term I would like to see the USFS and BLM set policies with very, very liberal spatial requirements. Like Pope said the solution to the problem does not mean domestic sheep/goat producers are driven to extinction either. I would like to see the domestic sheep/goat allotments near bighorn habitat in Washington converted to cattle permits. There is a place for domestics.
One last thing, transmission occurs through nose-to-nose contact. It is not air borne.
That's enough for now. Sorry for any bad spelling...I'm not going to risk spell check again!
Post by: Lowedog on January 15, 2009, 09:18:51 PM
I have in the last 5-10 years or so seen domestic sheep being grazed in what I would call too close proximity to the Swakane herd and was puzzled because I remembered this article and thought they weren't supposed to be there.
Am I imagining this agrement with the USFS and DNR or was there one at one time?
-Lowedog
Post by: ramslam on January 15, 2009, 09:23:32 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 11:47:21 PM
I helped with the transplant of Chelan sheep. The Chelan sheep have been seen all the way up to Stehekin. What happens when one pops over and drops into the Twisp/Winthrop valley and mingles with some domestic sheep? Then he brings it back to the Chelan herd. They give it to the Chelan Butte and Swakane herd. Etc.
I wish I had been able to give more of my time to sheep projects and look forward to doing more in the future.
Post by: boneaddict on January 16, 2009, 07:04:21 AM
Thanks for weighing in Doublelung and ramslam.
Post by: runamuk on January 16, 2009, 08:00:01 AM
Pasturella is a lovely human bug as well. (to answer your ? Run) immunity is alot easier to stimulate with viruses. Has to do with your memory cells and immunoglobulin levels. It does happen to a certain extent with some bacteria. ..but its sort of like how you never get immune to Strep Throat. You can have it time and time again, whereas most viruses, like Mono, you can have it then immune to that strain for life. They are getting better and better at figuring out the protiens etc, like the pneumovax.
Thanks for weighing in Doublelung and ramslam.
Bone I understand the basic mechanisms of immunity, I was curious why domestics seem to be naturally resistant and bighorns hadn't developed resistance, ramslam seems to have answered that for me. If I get to WSU I will have to check out the facility.
As for strep you bring up the one bacteria that I appear to be immune to LOL.... I've never gotten strep and have directly shared drinks with people who had it. My doctors have found it curious......I did have scarlet fever as a child (which is a form of strep infection) but have never had strep throat.
Ramslam thanks that is great information. I truly knew nothing of this until POPE posted so all of my replies are essentially inquiry. If the rams are traveling such great distances it seems it would be harder to control contact with domestics, even if domestics were removed from the Hells Canyon area. I do like the idea of switching the leases to cattle that might actually be do-able. Is there a specific person or dept. that a writing campaign could be directed to?
Post by: whacker1 on January 16, 2009, 08:11:31 AM
Post by: bluesarcher on January 16, 2009, 09:30:23 AM
The federal land administrators will be forced to prevent contact within a year or two, leaving this issue at the forefront of recovery. I do not believe there is a county in eastern WA that will ban private landowners from owning domestics, but until a vaccine is developed, this is who people should be talking with.
To help out...Contact the Asotin County Commissioners. They control all of the major issues for washington sheep in Hells Canyon. We have to start somewhere.
Post by: ramslam on January 16, 2009, 10:56:55 AM
Domestic sheep grazers continue to fight back. The Shirts brothers grazing sheep on the Smith Mountain allotments west of Riggins, Idaho, filed a 500+ page lawsuit with Boise federal Judge Lynn Winmill. It contained six complaints, part of which dealt with U.S. Forest Service process, and the remainder dealing with biological issues. The Judge threw the suit out, in a 3 page opinion, not based on the merits of the lawsuit, but the fact that it was not submitted on time (and that ruling has been protested). The domestic grazers, probably with elected officials’ help, got U.S. Undersecretary of Agriculture (The U.S. Dept. of Agriculture oversees the Forest Service) Mark Rey (a political appointee) to put a hold on all bighorn transplants on all National Forests until the bighorns (but not domestic sheep) have been tested for disease. This was done by creating a Memorandum of Understanding-MOU- between the Forest Service and a sister agency-APHIS-Animal Plant Health Inspection Service. Note two things here: 1. The MOU has not been signed (as this is written in late December); 2. The WAFWA-Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies (including Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife)-has strongly protested Rey’s action as the rights of individual states to manage resident wildlife is very much threatened here, and goes against federal law and policy. Rey also wrote a letter to Abigail Kimball, head of the Forest Service, outlining the new policy. Whether or not these actions become US Forest Service policy is uncertain, due to the change in Administration occurring in January 2009. Also, the ASI-American Sheep Industry-filed a lawsuit in federal court over this issue, but with a different judge from Lynn Winmill. That lawsuit has since been moved to Winmill’s court, but no action has been taken yet.
Continued uncertainties. The AOI’s-Annual Operating Instructions for the Mick Carlson Allotment east of Riggins, Idaho, have not yet been crafted for 2009 by the Payette National Forest (PNF). What the PNF will do is unknown at this point. The PNF also determined that there should be no grazing on this allotment in 2009, but was directed by letter from Mark Rey (who else?) to allow Carlson to graze it. The Forest Service is seeking other, unused allotments for Carlson’s use.
Making Progress. 1.Idaho Governor Butch Otter apparently has softened his anti-bighorn stance somewhat, as there has been a significant collaborative effort (8 meetings since August) between ASI-the American Sheep Industry, the Wild Sheep Foundation, the Nez Perce tribe, and U.S. Idaho Senator Mike Crapo’s office. These entities are working very hard to reach common ground, which is a difficult task at best. Recognizing the collaborative effort and the importance of bighorns, the governor is reportedly leaning towards disbanding his second Governor’s Task Force on management of bighorn and domestic sheep. 2.The Idaho Fish and Game Interim Management Policy for Bighorns, which included lethal termination of bighorns which strayed into domestic bands, has not been implemented that I know of. 3. The Salmon River Bighorn Study, crafted by the Nez Perce tribe and with financial help from several cooperators has seen GPS radio collars installed on many bighorns, by biologists working from helicopters and jet boats. The results from the first year indicate beyond doubt that bighorns, especially rams, use Mick Carlson’s allotment at least 11 months per year, putting to rest Forest Service doubts and uncertainties about whether bighorns used the allotment. And the radio collar data also indicate rams swim the Salmon River at will, much as rams do in the Snake River. 4. Dr. Sri Srikumaran and his staff crafted a research proposal which would explore the role of Mycoplasma species in the deaths of bighorns. The proposal lacked about $11,000 from its goal of $70,000. The Nevada Bighorns Unlimited, Reno Chapter very graciously fleshed out the proposal with a $10,700 grant. 5. The Forest Service has been actively searching for unused domestic sheep allotments to which Mick Carlson and the Shirts brothers could be redirected. There may be problems with this, however, due to regulations which forbid permittees from subleasing their grazing privileges to other grazers.
More to follow...
Post by: Lowedog on January 16, 2009, 11:33:49 AM
The USFS is bombarded by these people with law suits at every turn when it comes to cutting down a tree or disturbing a plant but I have never heard of one of these groups sueing over grazing permits.
There is about a half mile trail the USFS wants to build near Lake Wenatchee that has been held up in court for several years by lawsuits because it may disturb grizzly habitat?!?! The same area they allow the sheep herders to graze through! Ever see an area after the sheep go through?
-Lowedog
Post by: ramslam on January 16, 2009, 12:43:21 PM
www.fs.fed.us/r4/sawtooth/arevision/revision.htm
There are six alternatives for bighorns, described in detail. Only two are significant: 7H and 7E. 7H, the Payette’s preferred alternative, would eliminate domestic sheep grazing in all currently occupied bighorn habitant surrounded by a 9-mile wide buffer. Domestic sheep would be allowed to graze outside of that, on the current domestic sheep allotments. Alternative 7E is stricter: It would eliminate all domestic sheep grazing on the entire Payette Forest.
Until very recently, the latest final date for public comments was January 2, 2009. This date has been extended to March 3, 2009 at the written request of several organizations, including the WSF and the Nez Pierce Tribe. This is where you, bighorn hunter/sportsman(woman)/lover of bighorn country/photographer/back packer, come in. The only way bighorns are going to get what they need and deserve on the Payette is for you to let the Forest Service know how you feel about this situation, and what you, as a taxpayer and owner of federal lands, want done for bighorns. What happens on the Payette will set the standard on what happens on all National Forest throughout the West, and may well have an impact on what happens on BLM lands, as well. The bighorns need grass-roots support from you! That means individual letters or emails to the Payette. Form letters are all put in a pile and counted as just one comment, when the comments are counted, so individual responses are by far the best.
Here is who you write letters to:
Payette National Forest
Attention: Bighorn Sheep Comments
800 Lakeside Avenue
McCall, ID 83638
Here is the email address for comments : payettebighorn@fs.fed.us
Following are some tips, regardless of how you contact the Forest Service: Tell where you live; why you care; and give any personal experience, education or professional expertise that informs your opinion (that includes watching and photographing and hunting them, among other things).
Points you could include in your comments: 1. The overwhelming majority of published science supports the concept that disease transmission from domestic to bighorn sheep is a serious threat to bighorns. 2. Urge the Forest Service, if it adopts Alternative 7H ( the existing bighorn habitat plus a nine-mile buffer) NEVER to reduce that area in size, based on future monitoring; 3. Stress that separation between species is crucial, regardless of how it is done-refer to the Payette Principles described in the Summer issue of Wild Sheep 4.; Or go with Alternative 7E, which eliminates domestic sheep grazing entirely; 5.. Urge the Forest Service to find domestic sheep allotments outside bighorn habitat, even if it means in other Forests in other states; 6. Given their propensity to travel long distances throughout the Hells Canyon and Salmon river drainages, management of bighorns on the Payette affects Oregon and Washington as well as Idaho. 7. Hells Canyon contains some of the finest bighorn habitat in this country, and bighorn populations would expand tremendously, given the opportunity. Keep in mind, please, that regardless of which way the Forest Service rules on this issue, there will be lawsuits, and the decision may be made in federal court. And each and every comment made by both sides will be considered in the Court’s deliberations, so it is VERY important that you write, and soon, in favor of the bighorns.
I hope this helps clarify the situation and what's being done. I encourage everyone that reads this thread to take 30 minutes and send in a comment.
Glen A Landrus
WAFNAWS President
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 16, 2009, 03:44:36 PM
Let's give them a chance. We have a real opportunity to succeed with this cause unlike some of the others we are so disgruntled about...
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2009, 03:52:56 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 16, 2009, 07:11:46 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 16, 2009, 10:28:34 PM
Post by: gramps on January 17, 2009, 08:57:10 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 17, 2009, 09:27:16 AM
Post by: TeacherMan on January 17, 2009, 09:37:35 AM
The vulcan Mt. Herd is in my back yard all the time and I have been watching them for the last 5 years or so and I would say that that herd has grown in size, but the majority of there time is spent in cattle country. I don't know of any sheep they would come in contact with.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 17, 2009, 11:28:17 AM
Post by: ramslam on January 19, 2009, 10:14:16 AM
Thanks pope, bone, huntn, and passion for sending comments. I want to encourage others to do the same. About 10 years ago we were down to 9 sheep permits in Washington; now we are approaching 40. I read lots of comments on here about conservative tag allocations, improving draw odds and mismanagement by WDFW but the reality for bighorns is contact with domestic sheep/goats is the limiting factor for bighorn populations. We are one wreck from being right back down to less than 10 permits. Additionally by reducing potential contact it is not unrealistic to have 60 or 80 permits in 10 more years. Sending comments and a victory on the Payette should be viewed as the single greatest positive impact on bighorn populations in the west.
Here is the comment info again. Comment period closes March 3, 2009.
Here is who you write letters to:
Payette National Forest
Attention: Bighorn Sheep Comments
800 Lakeside Avenue
McCall, ID 83638
Here is the email address for comments : payettebighorn@fs.fed.us
Following are some tips, regardless of how you contact the Forest Service: Tell where you live; why you care; and give any personal experience, education or professional expertise that informs your opinion (that includes watching and photographing and hunting them, among other things).
Points you could include in your comments: 1. The overwhelming majority of published science supports the concept that disease transmission from domestic to bighorn sheep is a serious threat to bighorns. 2. Urge the Forest Service, if it adopts Alternative 7H ( the existing bighorn habitat plus a nine-mile buffer) NEVER to reduce that area in size, based on future monitoring; 3. Stress that separation between species is crucial, regardless of how it is done-refer to the Payette Principles described in the Summer issue of Wild Sheep 4.; Or go with Alternative 7E, which eliminates domestic sheep grazing entirely; 5.. Urge the Forest Service to find domestic sheep allotments outside bighorn habitat, even if it means in other Forests in other states; 6. Given their propensity to travel long distances throughout the Hells Canyon and Salmon river drainages, management of bighorns on the Payette affects Oregon and Washington as well as Idaho. 7. Hells Canyon contains some of the finest bighorn habitat in this country, and bighorn populations would expand tremendously, given the opportunity. Keep in mind, please, that regardless of which way the Forest Service rules on this issue, there will be lawsuits, and the decision may be made in federal court. And each and every comment made by both sides will be considered in the Court’s deliberations, so it is VERY important that you write, and soon, in favor of the bighorns.
Post by: runamuk on January 19, 2009, 06:20:30 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 22, 2009, 12:26:00 PM
Post by: woodywsu on January 22, 2009, 12:52:54 PM
A little side note here. I hit the Grand Ronde for steelies last weekend and we fish below a rancher's house downriver from Boggans. Anyways, I noticed there are sheep up on the hillside of the river. That might be a great place to start with banning domestic sheep. That grand ronde river and the blues have endless habitat for these creatures. I have seen bighorns throughout that area and I would hate to see it get ruined for FOUR sheep grazing.
Post by: ramslam on January 23, 2009, 01:34:23 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 23, 2009, 08:45:34 PM
I noticed there are sheep up on the hillside of the river.
Sounds like a float trip down the river with an AR might do the trick if emails don't :rolleyes:
Post by: NWTFhunter on January 24, 2009, 02:16:43 AM
Post by: NWTFhunter on January 24, 2009, 02:35:33 AM
There is another in Boise that I can think of that maybe you can go to. I havent been there in a long time, but will go look to see if there is any discussion about this.
The address is
hunttalk.com
Post by: 280ackley on January 24, 2009, 01:22:04 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on November 04, 2009, 09:30:33 AM
Washington - Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep (Rifle)
1. 198 2/8 Asotin County 1989
2. 190 5/8 Asotin County 1995
3. 189 3/8 Asotin County 1987
4. 189 0/8 Asotin County 1996
5. 188 0/8 Asotin County 1995
6. 187 2/8 Asotin County 1986
7. 186 7/8 Asotin County 1991
8. 184 5/8 Asotin County 1994
9. 183 7/8 Garfield County 1990
10. 180 6/8 Columbia County 1994
Post by: carpsniperg2 on November 04, 2009, 11:13:56 AM