Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: Capt. Rob on October 06, 2015, 12:57:46 PM

Title: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: Capt. Rob on October 06, 2015, 12:57:46 PM: Here are a couple pics of my bull that I got on Sunday. It took four shots out of my T/C Blackdiamond with 250 grain Barnes tipped mz bullets. I know it is a little lite but it's what I had and have killed many elk in the past with a 260 grain Dead Center. The penetration was far from what I have experienced in the past. I had a brand new can of 777 ffg and used 120 grain charge to push the sabot. Anyone ever had this issue before?
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: quadrafire on October 06, 2015, 01:09:39 PM: Can't help you on the load, but nice job on the bull, Glad he finally went down
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: whacker1 on October 06, 2015, 02:05:15 PM: please explain your penetration issues?

Stopped on off side of rib cage?
Didn't pass through?

or something else entirely.

My experience with the Barnes is that they usually stop on the off side rib cage or the off side hide. They expand so much and do so much carnage to the lungs that they don't pass through on deer or elk.

I shoot the heaviest they make for the .54, which is 325 grain, because it does carry more energy, but they still don't pass through. last year, my bull had jello for the top half of the lungs, but no broken ribs on the off side.
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: Sabotloader on October 06, 2015, 02:11:52 PM: Capt. Rob

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FArchive%2FCapt.%2520Rob%25202015%2520ML%2520Bull.jpg&hash=8e6aa238dd9f7d993df5d8b09224df26e3522ddd) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Archive/Capt.%20Rob%202015%20ML%20Bull.jpg.html)

Stood the pic up so everyone could see how great a bull this is...

Without knowing the range, seeing or really knowing what your what you are indicating by the lack of penetration - it is hard to speculate. Also it looks like you might have shot him right in the shoulder - going trough the hided and the shoulder will absorb a lot of energy!

Once the bullet opens up fully in the tissue it becomes somewhat like a parachute and slows rapidly. Normally a Barnes will not over expand and normally they will offer very good penetration.

That one pack board in the back of the picture is going to get or did get one heck of a workout getting this guy in the truck.
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: Myrtle Creek Inc. on October 06, 2015, 05:19:56 PM: Great bull! If you're getting good accuracy with the Barnes, perhaps try the 290's, or if you like lighter bullets, the new 270gr Federal's have been impressive as well.
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: Blacklab on October 06, 2015, 05:24:46 PM: That's an awesome animal :tup: congrats
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: Watimberghost on October 06, 2015, 05:25:12 PM: Nice bull!
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: Capt. Rob on October 06, 2015, 08:41:57 PM: No shot was over 65 yds. No bullet penetrated more than a few inches! Like I said 120 grains of loose 777 ffg. I was very disapointed in the performance. I have never shot thru an elk with my muzzle loader but the Dead Center 260's would be under the hide on the opposite side. Thanks for adjusting picture. I thought I had it right.
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on October 06, 2015, 08:46:20 PM: I have not killed a elk with a muzzleloader. However I have killed many deer with a dead center and barnes tmz. I have had great results with both. I would say the bullet did well and I have seen bullets truly fail. I would not consider that poor bullet performance and I would be happy.

Also that is a great bull congrats!!!!
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: Damnimissed on October 07, 2015, 02:40:55 PM: I switched last minute from 290gr Barnes TMZs to 300gr Bloodlines. I killed a cow yesterday and got 4 pass-throughs. She was dead on her feet but I didn't know if I hit her and I shoot em til they're on the ground...Dandy bull btw, looks about like the one I missed on Sunday :bash:
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: Chesapeake on October 08, 2015, 04:20:21 PM: Personally I think anything lighter than 350 or so is too light for elk. My opinion.
A 50 cal. round ball is 177 grains, 54 cal. 224 gr., and 58 cal 280 gr. or so. Its long been accepted that these bullet weights were a pretty short range elk projectile due to penetration and energy. That's why in the old days it was all about having a larger bore, so you could have a larger heavier ball.

Your load was likely doing between 1700 and 1900 fps. Muzzleloaders just aren't that fast, so they favor large heavy projectiles for energy and penetration.

For instance:
A 250 grain slug at 1800fps has 1800 ft.lb. energy at muzzle and 1300 ft.lb. at 100 yards. (assuming a reasonable BC)
A 350 grain slug at 1700fps has 2250 ft.lb. energy at muzzle and 1650 ft.lb. at 100 yards.
The speed you gain with the reduction in mass doesn't make up for the mass you lost. You'd have to launch that 250 grain slug at 2000 fps. just to match the 350 grain slug at 1700.

My favorite bullets for elk in order:
375 Buffalo SSB (out of production)
360 non-tipped Dead centers
340 tipped dead centers (bullet I currently use)
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: fastdam on October 08, 2015, 05:14:56 PM: I shot my bull saturday morning with the 290 grain barnes TMZ bullet and 2, 50 grain pyrodex pellets. I use muskets caps for ignition ( the german ones). Performed perfect. My shot was a little high, took out 1 lung and the far shoulder. I found the bullet while skinning in between the skin and the shoulder it penetrated.
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: wildweeds on October 08, 2015, 05:25:30 PM: Hey man that's an AWESOME bull! . My uncle tipped a very nice 6x6 over in yakima on tuesday with his muzzleloader,80 yards with one shot. Not sure how to get the picture from my phone onto here. I also don't know which bullet and powder he was using either. He's a natural born killer,killed cows by the 100's for 40 years,he has the xray vision of where all the bang flop hits are at. Surgical like with his modern rifle on deer. Looks like he's in for a banner year of hunting, his next adventure is accompaning his buddy who drew a Moose tag in the Northeast.
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: TopOfTheFoodChain on October 08, 2015, 08:58:08 PM: Awesome! Congrats!
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: Chukarhead on October 08, 2015, 08:59:44 PM: I've killed five elk with 290 grain T-EZs, my wife has killed one, and buddies have killed another four, all over 110-130gr of T7 FFFPP. Most of the bullets have been recovered in the far side hide, fully expanded. A couple have passed through, leaving huge, gaping wound channels in their wakes. None have stopped on the near side, or under-penetrated at all. We've never recovered one from a deer. My only complaint is that they tend to deflect in the animal and can take pretty crazy paths through. For example, a perfect broadside behind the shoulder on a deer two years ago exited near the opposite hind leg. Weird.

Nice bull, even with four holes in him!
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: fastdam on October 08, 2015, 09:00:03 PM: Thats a beautiful bull
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: muleyslayer on October 08, 2015, 09:18:57 PM: Quote from: Chukarhead on October 08, 2015, 08:59:44 PM
I've killed five elk with 290 grain T-EZs, my wife has killed one, and buddies have killed another four, all over 110-130gr of T7 FFFPP. Most of the bullets have been recovered in the far side hide, fully expanded. A couple have passed through, leaving huge, gaping wound channels in their wakes. None have stopped on the near side, or under-penetrated at all. We've never recovered one from a deer. My only complaint is that they tend to deflect in the animal and can take pretty crazy paths through. For example, a perfect broadside behind the shoulder on a deer two years ago exited near the opposite hind leg. Weird.

Nice bull, even with four holes in him!
:yeah: nice bull
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: p-ohana on October 08, 2015, 09:26:40 PM: Congrats on a great bull, I haven't seen an old pack board like that in years.
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: JohnnyJohnson on October 08, 2015, 10:05:08 PM: I see you're a user of the old reliable GI pack board. They are my favorite and have packed out a few pretty nice elk, deer and Mountain Goat with.
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: erk444 on October 09, 2015, 04:48:21 PM: Do you have pics of the bullets? Did they expand like they are supposed to? Maybe they were tumbling? I have got 2 TMZs back from elk and they were both perfect expansion and penatration.
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: Capt. Rob on October 13, 2015, 01:54:55 PM: Thank you all for your response, very informative. I think I will switch to the 290gr. T EZ's or go back to the dead centers. I had very good luck with those back before jacketed bullets were legal. What is the benefit of shooting fffg over ffg powder for hunting? I always thought that fffg was for pistol loads.
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: erk444 on October 13, 2015, 08:41:15 PM: FFF burns a little hotter or faster I believe so you don't have to use as much as you would to get the same amount of pressure as you would with FF. You may have used to much and your bullets were tumbling like I said before? I'm not to sure though, just a thought :dunno:
Title: Re: 2015 muzzy bull.
Post by: Sabotloader on October 13, 2015, 09:19:00 PM: Quote from: Capt. Rob on October 13, 2015, 01:54:55 PM
Thank you all for your response, very informative. I think I will switch to the 290gr. T EZ's or go back to the dead centers. I had very good luck with those back before jacketed bullets were legal. What is the benefit of shooting fffg over ffg powder for hunting? I always thought that fffg was for pistol loads.

The best reason I can suggest for using 3f powder is that it ignites easier than 2f and it burns much cleaner. And in really cold weather that is important to me here in Idaho.