Post by: Special T on October 19, 2015, 11:04:13 AM
Interesting read on military calibers for rifles and machine guns for dismounted infantry. Talks about current calibers as well as the 6.8spc and 6.5grenal. I think it makes a pretty good case for the 6.5 grendal as an all purpose round.
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Post by: lamrith on October 19, 2015, 01:05:04 PM
The 6.5 caliber has been taking big game for centuries in Europe, the bullet typically outperforms what the numbers on paper show it should do.
Post by: WoodlandShooter on October 19, 2015, 02:13:41 PM
However, I have heard rumors of some "guys" using SR25's chambered in 260 Remmy.... 8)
also there is athe SWORD MK18!!
http://sword-int.com/weapon-systems/mk-18-sawman-signature-series/
oh and for suppressive fire...General Dynamics has yer baby!!
http://www.defensereview.com/general-dynamics-armament-technical-products-gdatp-338-nm-lwmmg-338-norma-magnum-lightweight-medium-machine-gun-for-overmatch-capability-potential-game-changer-for-mobile-infantry/
so, chamber the MK18 in 338 Norma to match the General Dynamics SAW in the same cartrige, and yer golden!!
Post by: WoodlandShooter on October 19, 2015, 02:18:30 PM
Caliber: .338
Weight: 24 pounds
Length: 49 inches
Rate of fire: 500 rounds per minute
Ammunition: .338 Norma Magnum
Projectile: 300gr Sierra HPBT, FMJ, AP
Muzzle Velocity: 2,650 feet per second
Barrel Length: 24 inches
Max Effective Range: 1,860 yards (1,700 meters)
Maximum range: 6,170 yards (5,642 meters)
Mount: M192 tripod, or various
vehicle mounts
Post by: Special T on October 19, 2015, 03:40:02 PM
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Post by: WoodlandShooter on October 19, 2015, 04:32:32 PM
really like the 260 Remmy or the 6.5 Creedmore these days!!
Power of a 308 with the ballistics almost as good as a 300 WM.
just needs a AR10, not a AR15
Post by: lamrith on October 19, 2015, 06:25:57 PM
yeah!!Can't compare those to Grendel or 6.8. You are talking an entirely new weapon system, whereas, grendel 6.8spc or even 300blk are low cost to roll out and no change to training or receivers already in circulation. Sure they have more power but also more recoil and much heavier ammo for our boys to haul around on their backs in the field.
really like the 260 Remmy or the 6.5 Creedmore these days!!
Power of a 308 with the ballistics almost as good as a 300 WM.
just needs a AR10, not a AR15
Post by: Blacklab on October 19, 2015, 06:36:28 PM
yeah!!Can't compare those to Grendel or 6.8. You are talking an entirely new weapon system, whereas, grendel 6.8spc or even 300blk are low cost to roll out and no change to training or receivers already in circulation. Sure they have more power but also more recoil and much heavier ammo for our boys to haul around on their backs in the field.
really like the 260 Remmy or the 6.5 Creedmore these days!!
Power of a 308 with the ballistics almost as good as a 300 WM.
just needs a AR10, not a AR15
:yeah:
apples an oranges
8lbs 14 ounces w/ a 18 inch pipe
Post by: WoodlandShooter on October 20, 2015, 10:04:01 AM
Even my 243WSSM AR15 shooting a 105 A-MAx at 3075FPS is out of gas at 1000 yards!!
Unfortunately, the AR15 is just not up to the task...
I have a 6.8 SPC and well, it toast after 600 yards too...it is better under 300 yards and barriers under 50, but it is NOT a long range cartrige.
The 6,5 Grendel is better, but it's just not fast enough.
the 300 BLK in not even in the hunt.
Post by: WoodlandShooter on October 20, 2015, 10:32:20 AM
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysmallarms/tuesdaysessioniii8524.pdf
Post by: lamrith on October 20, 2015, 11:22:03 AM
Data @ 600yrds based on personally documented Muzzle velocity last Sat and using factory BC data.
308 (150grn, 2711fps muzzle): 1335fps, 594ft/lbs, 113"drop(from 100yrdzero)
Grendel (123grn, 2480fps muzzle): 1616fps, 713ft/lbs, 105"drop(from100yrd zero)
To match 308's data @ 600 Grendel would be:
Velocity: 850yrds
Energy: 700+yrds
Drop: 620yrds
Not sure about you, but I for one do not every want to have any bullet heading my way @ 1000fps+, and Grendel would be a substantial increase in power down range than the 556 for our boys and girls out there putting it all on the line.
Post by: WoodlandShooter on October 20, 2015, 11:46:06 AM
However, what happens to the 308 when you replace the 150 Grain pill you used with a 175 SMK at 2600 FPS or even a 155 Scenar at your current 2711 FPS. :tup:
The Grendel does not have the snort because it lacks case capacity REGARDLESS of the weapon platform it is in.
My shooting buddy ran a 6LBC this year (basicly a 6mm Grendel). What we found was that is just did not have the snort to be competitive. The 6.5 Grendel is even slower...regardless if the Bullet has a high BC, if the speed is not there, the added BC sometimes is not worth the loss in velocity from pushing the heavier bullet.
Post by: 300rum on October 20, 2015, 12:39:12 PM
The 5.56 would be better suited with a better bullet but that isn't going to happen (dramatically).
Post by: WoodlandShooter on October 20, 2015, 01:14:22 PM
I kinda look at it like this. 500 foot pounds in the bottom limit for two legged varmints. add some light barrier protection, and it goes past 750 Foot pounds real quick.
Think of it like Deer Hunting...1000 foot pounds is the rule of thumb.
so, pick your expected range, and determine the appropriate cartrige to deliver the needed energy. QED
Post by: lamrith on October 20, 2015, 01:58:53 PM
Agreed!!Makes sense, I just never heard of energy threshold for two legged. I cannot think of anyone that is going to take a round with over 1000fps and 500ft/lbs of energy and "walk it off" they will be down, hospitalized, dead... Then our being "sentient" and taking a round like that will probably have most people not continuing to fight even if they had armor and wwere not physically removed from the fight?
I kinda look at it like this. 500 foot pounds in the bottom limit for two legged varmints. add some light barrier protection, and it goes past 750 Foot pounds real quick.
Think of it like Deer Hunting...1000 foot pounds is the rule of thumb.
so, pick your expected range, and determine the appropriate cartrige to deliver the needed energy. QED
Just have to wonder if we all get to wrapped up in "data and numbers" We are still talking about a supersonic round striking flesh and bone..
Has anyone seen/know of down range ballistic testing anyplace on the net? Something like hog carcass or ballistics gel and terminal performance at distance? 500, 600, 1000yrds? That could be very telling with regard to real world function..
Centuries of use in Europe has proven the 6.5 (not grendel but the bullet caliber) produces terminal results beyond what simple mathematical numbers might indicate. Maybe 6.5Creed is the magic bullet, but still talking a "new" weapon system roll out or adaptation of existing 308 platforms..
Post by: WoodlandShooter on October 20, 2015, 02:44:25 PM
this is a case where you dont want the guy getting up and getting back in the fight. Taliwackers dont care if their buddy gets hit, so sucking up resources by wounding his buddy is not a strategy to use. Bring a BIG STICK!!
Post by: Special T on November 07, 2015, 10:02:19 AM
1 The US military is deeply financially invested in the division ammo in the 3 categories. Light 556 Med7.62 heavy 50cal. There are BILLIONS of dollars invested in ammo stocks staged all across the world. If you were to change up the standard the cost would be dramatic because of the depth of supply holdings the US has. The supply is a buffer against production problems and is available in a NEED ASAP situation... Just think Gulf war.
2 Besides the cost supply distribution would be a nightmare. All NATO participants have interchangeable ammo for a reason. Ammo is the first priority for warfare so taking away this standard exchange away does away with most of the benefit of a caliber change. Joint operations with other NATO members become much more complex with out standard ammo and other nato countries likely have low interest in changing calibers. It would likely be more expensive for them because it may be more expensive for the conversion of arms than our M4/M16.