Post by: predatorG on October 22, 2015, 06:57:54 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on October 22, 2015, 07:09:19 PM
Post by: erk444 on October 22, 2015, 07:14:10 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 22, 2015, 07:44:49 PM
Post by: HankC on October 22, 2015, 07:51:18 PM
I read an article in Oregon-Washington Fish and Game a couple of days ago. I think the author said the bucks in the San Juans average 120 - 140. Don't quote me on that.
I'm reading that article right now. It says 80-150 for island deer. Good read :tup:
Post by: Special T on October 22, 2015, 07:57:51 PM
Post by: lokidog on October 23, 2015, 08:34:13 AM
I stopped putting in for the 2nd deer tags when they went to $70+ and now that they are cheaper and doe only, I still don't bother.
Post by: JDHasty on October 23, 2015, 09:00:20 AM
The smaller three point I shot this year went 105 w/head an hide off. I have been posting about a real monster buck I have been seeing the last couple years and he is a buck that would go over 200 @ the butcher shop, he looks like a Welsh Pony, but those are very few and far between. I have seen him w/does and I have seen him w/a big mature two point or I would not make a guess at his weight.
I didn't see it, but a big south Puget Sound island buck was killed by a car about five years ago and I was told that it went 250 @ the butcher shop.
These monster blacktails are really out-layers though, most south Puget Sound blacktail bucks are between 100 and 145 w/head and hide off, with mature bucks favoring the upper number.
So that is what we are hunting in the south sound, perhaps someone has some real experience w/the San Juan bucks and then we can compare the two.
Post by: TheSkyBuster on October 23, 2015, 11:10:50 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 23, 2015, 11:47:15 AM
http://www.scotthaugen.com/san-juan-island-blacktail/
Post by: lokidog on October 23, 2015, 02:05:38 PM
Monster San Juan buck! Got about 40 lbs off him
You got 40 lbs off of him?? That would be a monster 'nubbin' here.
Post by: Widgeondeke on October 23, 2015, 02:12:36 PM
most of the deer I have seen on Shaw, you'd be lucky to get a 100# animal on the hoof
54# is a good deer Loki
Post by: predatorG on October 23, 2015, 04:44:19 PM
Post by: baker5150 on October 23, 2015, 04:58:38 PM
North East side of Orcas seams to hold a good gene pool.
Tall, dark, racks. Just not very big bodied deer is all.
Post by: TheSkyBuster on October 23, 2015, 05:44:05 PM
Monster San Juan buck! Got about 40 lbs off him
You got 40 lbs off of him?? That would be a monster 'nubbin' here.
40 ish, I didn't weigh it. He was the biggest doe out of 3 when I shot him :chuckle:
Post by: blackmouther on October 23, 2015, 05:49:29 PM
Post by: lokidog on October 23, 2015, 07:43:27 PM
The deer on the islands are very small. I have seen plenty of them dead and the biggest one so far was a tall dark horned 3pt. Maybe 80#'s in the above listed state no head hide or legs. Mostly around 65-70#'s for a large buck and 45-60 for a doe. Anyone who claims to have hung one over 100# should buy a scale.
And exactly how many "island" deer have you shot and butchered? :dunno: We, friends and family, have taken almost thirty in the last ten years....
Post by: fishnfur on October 23, 2015, 08:10:03 PM
:chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: predatorG on October 23, 2015, 10:17:27 PM
Post by: Gobble Doc on October 23, 2015, 10:25:08 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 23, 2015, 11:20:12 PM
Post by: JakeLand on October 24, 2015, 03:44:22 AM
Post by: predatorG on October 24, 2015, 08:58:45 AM
Post by: lokidog on October 24, 2015, 09:21:21 AM
Just for clarification, are you disagreeing with him loki? And how much do you say they weigh on average?
I think it varies substantially between islands. Then you have to figure out a definition of weight, meat, bones, guts, skin, lower legs, fat, waste trimmings etc. Some estimates I have read say that meat yield is 40% of carcass weight (hide, head, and guts removed). If that is the case, all of our bucks have had a
I will total up this year's buck and post his weight later today.
Post by: Widgeondeke on October 24, 2015, 09:58:58 AM
Just for clarification, are you disagreeing with him loki? And how much do you say they weigh on average?
I think it varies substantially between islands. Then you have to figure out a definition of weight, meat, bones, guts, skin, lower legs, fat, waste trimmings etc. Some estimates I have read say that meat yield is 40% of carcass weight (hide, head, and guts removed). If that is the case, all of our bucks have had a carcass weight of 160# or more as meat yield has been 40-54 pounds. Doe yields, at least here, have been more in the 22 to 35 pound range.
I will total up this year's buck and post his weight later today.
I have only hunted Shaw, but I have E seen some deer no bigger than a dobermen and she had a fawn.
Post by: blackmouther on October 24, 2015, 10:54:05 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 24, 2015, 11:12:37 AM
And does it really matter how big they are? They are still a prize if you happen to be good enough to score one. If you're strictly a meat hunter, and if the island deer are indeed typically smaller, it may be a consideration. Otherwise, it is just an observation or a data point. Nothing to get upset about. I bet the deer couldn't give a ****.
Post by: predatorG on October 24, 2015, 11:29:23 AM
Post by: lokidog on October 24, 2015, 12:11:08 PM
Post by: JDHasty on October 24, 2015, 01:12:40 PM
JD kitsap is where I hunt. We saw a really nice 3 point while out bear hunting 2 years ago. I'll have to see if I can find the pic. Also, farmer Georges is the spot we took our elk and deer this year. Great place :tup:
We got another pretty decent south sound buck (Kitsap Peninsula) yesterday evening. 120 lbs hanging at Farmer Georges. I will post photos on the other thread I have been posting on. http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,110551.msg2434439.html#msg2434439
They are stuck in my phone now. I have to wait for the wife to send them to email. Then I can get them into the computer and posted. I'm too old for all that text message and whatever.
The smaller buck I dropped off last week went just north of a hundred hanging. That yielded 68 lbs of ground meat, which FG delivered to me today as 1/3 jalapino/chedar brats 1/3 German brats and 1/3 Italian sausage
Post by: predatorG on October 24, 2015, 03:00:19 PM
Post by: lokidog on October 24, 2015, 03:20:36 PM
Live weight of my son's buck was 148#
- Meat + heart = 51.5
- Skeleton w/head and antlers = 32
- Lower legs = 3
- Tallow = 3
- Sinew + other yuck = 12.4
- Cape = 7
- Guts + liver + half skin = 39
So hanging weight with head was 99#, percent meat to hanging weight was 52%, percent meat to live weight was 35%.
I guess I need a better scale since we have had at least three deer larger than this, and I would assume hanging weight was over 100#... granted not much larger, but I would guess our deer are smaller than most of the other larger islands.
Not sure how Kitsap deer fit into the San Juan Blacktail thread though as it is not even an island. :dunno: Nice deer though. ;)
Post by: JDHasty on October 24, 2015, 04:06:54 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 24, 2015, 06:15:47 PM
Post by: skagitsteel on October 24, 2015, 08:17:17 PM
That was the meat that came off the deer. FG doesn't leave any meat on the bone! That is about as big as "normal" blacktails I have seen come out of the south sound get. But, as I have pointed out, every once in a blue moon there is one that is so much larger that it is uncanny. I never saw that one that was hit by a car, but I did see the other one and it was absolutely huge and hard to believe it a pure blacktail except it from Manchester. The one that was hit and killed, I was told it was 250 at the butcher. I have seen one this year on an island and last that when standing with another big mature buck makes the other one look small in comparison. The reason I mentioned the one we dropped off this morning was just to reinforce my point that mature blacktail bucks are not all that big of an animal.
except in the alpine! mature alpine blacktail average over 200 ibs on the hoof IMO, definitely a different animal than the lowland and island bucks. I took 70- 75 ibs of boneless meat off my buck this year, no rib meat, a little neck meat taken using gutless method. Definitely do not get as high of % when you are working solo on a steep mountain. I guessed the deer live weight probably 210-215 Ibs. A friends hunt I was on this past week one was taken that we estimated 250.
Post by: 2labs on October 24, 2015, 08:26:26 PM
Post by: JDHasty on October 24, 2015, 08:38:42 PM
250 blacktail? Girlfriend this turning into a bear thread. 8)
Please, no one has any reason to exaggerate and I have been there when that Manchester buck was delivered to the butcher. The second one I reference is hearsay - BUT, I will stand by my earlier comments and if you read them all the way through I add the disclaimer that bucks this big are far and away way to the right hand end of the bell curve, like way out on the tail end of it.
Re: the one from Manchester, he had a decent, but not special rack, nothing you would want to have a mount done with. And of the other one that was hit by a car and went to the butcher, I can't remember what, if anything, I ever heard regarding the rack on that buck.
The monster islander I have only seen on the hoof the last couple years, has a rack to match his size though. I'm saying he is a quarter to a third bigger than a mature, really nice, two point I have seen him with. If we put that two point at 120 hanging in the butcher shop (which is entirely reasonable), that makes him pushing two bucks on the hoof - so you do the math.
That one that went 220 in the shop, had to have been a ~300 lb deer on the hoof.
As for that Manchester buck, he was arrowed in an apple orchard and ran down to the beach and tried to swim away before dying. He was floated to the boat launch and the truck backed in to the tailgate and slid right into the bed of the truck. Two guys were not lifting that pig whole up into the bed of the truck.
Post by: 2labs on October 24, 2015, 08:43:57 PM
Post by: JDHasty on October 24, 2015, 08:55:55 PM
The point I want to make to the person posting is that 120 hanging is about the limit most people will ever expect to get off the south sound islands, and that leaves others to contribute re: San Juan Island bucks and from there conclusions can be drawn on what to REASONABLY expect to harvest in meat up there.
Post by: fishnfur on October 24, 2015, 09:07:29 PM
Fun thread. Thanks for letting me play. I'm out. The time to hunt is nigh.
Post by: blackmouther on October 24, 2015, 09:37:55 PM
Post by: Bantams on October 24, 2015, 10:05:22 PM
My dad's buck from this week is hanging at 115# (all weights are from the meat locker, weighed by the butcher).
My buck from 4 years ago was 127# - our biggest that was actually weighed.
Biggest doe (2 years ago) was 112# I believe. It weighed more than my 2x2 buck from that year.
I can't remember any other weights, but they usually top 100# dressed.
I usually can expect 65-75# of boneless meat from a buck. Does are usually around 40-45# (except monster doe).
Post by: JDHasty on October 25, 2015, 05:39:40 AM
Post by: TheSkyBuster on October 25, 2015, 06:28:00 AM
Post by: blackmouther on October 30, 2015, 06:04:34 PM
Post by: JDHasty on October 30, 2015, 09:02:03 PM
A mature buck from around here will generally go 115 or so. That makes it look to me as though a San Juan Island deer is probably just over half the body size of our blacktails. We dropped off a mature doe that went 85 lbs this year. That weight on a good doe is about what we would expect.
The question I have is: Are you familiar with outsize blacktails from the San Juan Islands that go... say over a hundred at the butcher shop? Not that I am interested in hunting the San Juan's, but just out of curiosity.
Ever so often we see a real pig that is just so much larger that it is uncanny. There is rumor that someone was breeding mule deer on Anderson in the mid 1900's, so that would maybe explain outsize bucks turning up there, but that is the only island in the south sound I have heard that about. The real monsters I have contemporary knowledge about are not off Anderson so that does nothing to explain the massive one from Manchester or other islands.
Just for fun, I thought I would see if I could do an internet search and come across one of the stories, and shazzam it popped right up and this is not an isolated incidence of this rumor - I have seen it posted literally, and I mean literally, dozens of times and even heard that story being bandied about on The Rez (i.e. Frank's Landing and the Lower Nisqually Rez) long before the internet existed. So there just may be something to it. When I was a kid, it was not uncommon to go down to the river and see a massive buck hanging at practically any time of the year.
"Here's a little history, which I believe is true but I have no proof. I've lived in the Hawks Prarie area all my life and a friend is direct kin of original homesteaders. He has told me (I've heard the same story from others as well) back in the 30's a guy had a large high fence operation raising mulies. Old man dies and the Mulies are set free, they cross breed with the blacktails which create some monster blacktails.
I have seen some huge buck around me place, missed one when I was in HS.
He has a newspaper from the 50's with his grandpa on the front page with a 25" 4x4 shot in Hawks Prarie also has a pretty big rack from a relative, seems like that one was like 22" with a bunch of mass."
http://www.huntfishnw.com/index.php?topic=2080.0
Now, that's a lota' bone for any blacktail, but if you look at the antler bases on that three by five my buddy got in south Kitsap this year... blacktail racks can get pretty massive and the one he got was the smaller of two that were running together all summer. That is s Kitsap, so that takes this story out of that equation. Pure Columbia blacktail bucks do have the capacity to get pretty massive. That one of my buddy's isn't anything to sneeze at.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I am not so convinced that this rack in question is not a mule deer rack that was from central Washington that was just "there," for whatever reason. Like it was with the other racks in a hunting cabin, a simple DNA test could confirm if that is more likely than not the case.....or not.
But it very well could be a Pure Columbia blacktail rack off the island, I have seen some pretty skookum blacktails taken off the islands, a couple this year alone. Palmation is also fairly common on the really big bucks off the islands. So much so that I would say it is the rule, rather than the exception. BUT, I have seen really pretty typical racks too. However, I have seen massive blacktail racks on the lower Nisqually Rez too and most of them showed the same palmation.
Really big island bucks typically show palmation. But with palmation comes mass. No?
The really big Rez bucks were palmated too and The Rez is smack right up agin Hawks Prairie - so is this a case of interbreeding causing the palmation. I don't much care. The trophy is pretty skookum if it is a Columbia blacktill though - that is all I really would like to know. If it is a bench leg cross, it is still nice, but nothing to get all excited about.
Post by: lokidog on October 30, 2015, 09:21:38 PM
This is a buck from orcas island. This is one of 3 the group killed and the largest. At TNT meats it weighed 66# the other was 62#. Thats with no head, hide, guts, lower legs. Pretty much what someone could expect out in the san juans.
That seems like smaller than the average buck we have gotten here, but definitely smaller than the big ones. My son's this year would be 88# in same condition as above mentioned. I always thought the Orcas deer would be bigger than ours. :dunno: I know the bucks I have seen on Lopez are mostly bigger.
Post by: blackmouther on October 31, 2015, 10:21:23 AM
Post by: skagitsteel on October 31, 2015, 12:54:25 PM
Well SkagitSteel, I'd like to see a picture of the 1/8 ton behemoth, even if he wasn't an island deer. Better start a new thread for all the ooos and ahhhs that will follow.
Fun thread. Thanks for letting me play. I'm out. The time to hunt is nigh.
here is the thread
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,184315.0.html
Here is a trail cam pic of another buck up high I have seen on the hoof year up high that would make the quarter century mark live weight pretty easily IMO. For reference bucks in this area rut later and his neck was pretty close to this size in June, not very swollen yet on OCT 25
Post by: lokidog on October 31, 2015, 11:12:40 PM
Yes, we weighed the deer that we tagged. I don't have any of the numbers at hand, but if I remember correctly, out of the 28 or so deer we tagged, the does were averaging around 80-90, and the bucks were around 120. We had one mature 3x3 buck at 135, and one mature 4x4 at 145 pounds, which was by far the biggest one we caught all season. I did see a few deer up on the north end of Blakely that I'd say were pushing 170-200 just by guesstimating them on the hoof (but then again, they had probably been eating out of vegetable gardens and flower pots all summer). These weights were taken in June-August. Not sure what that would convert to for a pre-rut weight in the fall. I might be able to get ahold of our data and produce some more accurate averages if you'd like - I'll have to check and see. Just let me know.
I think a 170-200 lb live weight deer here would be an anomaly though.
Post by: fishnfur on November 01, 2015, 08:31:24 PM
In my mind, ultimately, the physical characteristics such as antler size and body mass that are obvious to us when we judge an animal are controlled by genes that come from parents, grandparents, great grandparents, on and on. Sometimes a gene or combination of genes may skip through several generations of animals without being expressed, or may suddenly become expressed upon the mating of two animals that when combined, delivers results considered unusual within that population.
Those unusual results are nature's way of attempting to build a better mousetrap. If the expression of those genes results in an animal that can survive better, or develop characteristics that make it more dominant than the average animal in that population, then that animal will likely be more successful in spreading its genes resulting in progeny that may have the capability to develop similar physical characteristics. That may mean bigger body, it may mean smaller body, depending on the environment the animal lives in.
On many islands, where due to lack of predators, deer tend to overpopulate, it is the availability of food during the winter that becomes one of the major factors that determines survival. It makes perfect sense to me that smaller deer survive better than larger animals, as they require less food to sustain them through the winters (This may be off base a bit, but for the sake of discussion, I'm running with it). That may also mean the genes for small bodies are more pervasive within the island population as a whole and results in many deer that are smaller than the average mainland deer. These island deer either:
1). do indeed have an spread genes for a small body
or 2). still carry a gene for normal (or large) bodies, and when expressed results in a deer which may survive and become big and dominant, but which may also die of starvation during a bad winter while it is younger, so we never see it expressed.
or 3). Have genes for normal body size and don't fulfill their growth potential due to lack of nutrition at a young age (as happens with humans).
or 3). occasionally capture genes for large bodies from deer entering the population from external areas ( via swimming) which keeps all variations in the mix.
Ultimately, the results seem to be a population of deer characterized by smaller than average bodies with an occasional normal sized animal (for the mainland) or even less often, a super sized deer that seems out of place (much like a seven foot tall human).
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Post by: lokidog on November 01, 2015, 09:07:54 PM
There is a study starting that will be doing genetic analysis of various deer populations in the San Juans using fresh fecal samples. It will be interesting to see the results as they come out.
Post by: Bob33 on November 01, 2015, 09:34:12 PM
I have hunted a San Juan island since 1981. The island is about 6 square miles and has an estimated deer population of 400. You can easily see visually that almost all available deer food sources are depleted to a height that deer can't reach. No predators, mild winters, and little hunting pressure allow populations to grow past a point where healthy nutrition is possible. Simply put, there are too many deer.
Post by: lokidog on November 01, 2015, 10:15:17 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 01, 2015, 10:41:25 PM
I think it happens more than we might think. Surely it is how the original population of the SJ Islands arrived. If not, they walked across on receding glacial ice flows and stayed put 13,000 years ago.
Post by: lokidog on November 01, 2015, 10:53:03 PM
Post by: Griiz on November 02, 2015, 11:56:26 AM
Post by: JDHasty on November 02, 2015, 02:17:36 PM
The buck in the attached image was a lowland blacktail from Jefferson County. If you look at the picture, you can see he was built like a bull and is my largest bodied blacktail, although I have shot a few that were close to his body size. He weighed 190lbs hanging with his skin, head, front feet, bloodshot and fat trimmed off. If you estimate the weight of the removed body mass, he was easily 250 plus pounds. I think like people, deer from the same species come in a variation of sizes, even from the same area of harvest.
That's what I'm talking about.
There really are some really massive blacktail bucks out there and this is an excellent example of one. I've seen two and heard of a few more, they are not common at all, but they exist. You say this one is built like a bull, that sounds a lot like the massive one I have seen the last couple of years, he looks like a Welsh pony standing next to another mature buck and a mature doe standing next to him looks positively diminutive.
Post by: lokidog on November 02, 2015, 09:04:07 PM
The buck in the attached image was a lowland blacktail from Jefferson County. If you look at the picture, you can see he was built like a bull and is my largest bodied blacktail, although I have shot a few that were close to his body size. He weighed 190lbs hanging with his skin, head, front feet, bloodshot and fat trimmed off. If you estimate the weight of the removed body mass, he was easily 250 plus pounds. I think like people, deer from the same species come in a variation of sizes, even from the same area of harvest.
Now you're just being mean..... :chuckle:
Post by: Chukarhead on November 02, 2015, 10:45:20 PM
Of course they swim, but I know very few people who have seen one actually in the water. I have seen them on James Island, had to swim there, I saw a nice buck this summer on Ram Island, all of about three acres with no surface water, it had to have swam there as well. All I'm saying is that some people think they are out there swimming from island to island all the time, I don't think this is the case, especially between the islands that have more space between them.
Funny you should mention that... I saw two deer swimming to a Columbia River island today. Could have been Columbian white-tails, could have been blacktails. I also saw several deer swimming inland salt waters in southeast Alaska over my years up there. One buck was nearly 4 miles from land in the middle of Clarence Strait. I mistook him for a floating tree until I realized he was pushing a wake.
Post by: Bob33 on November 02, 2015, 10:52:21 PM
:dunno: The thread is about San Juan blacktails, but this deer is from the mainland is it not? Seeing a deer this size in the San Juans would be extremely rare.The buck in the attached image was a lowland blacktail from Jefferson County. If you look at the picture, you can see he was built like a bull and is my largest bodied blacktail, although I have shot a few that were close to his body size. He weighed 190lbs hanging with his skin, head, front feet, bloodshot and fat trimmed off. If you estimate the weight of the removed body mass, he was easily 250 plus pounds. I think like people, deer from the same species come in a variation of sizes, even from the same area of harvest.
That's what I'm talking about.
There really are some really massive blacktail bucks out there and this is an excellent example of one. I've seen two and heard of a few more, they are not common at all, but they exist. You say this one is built like a bull, that sounds a lot like the massive one I have seen the last couple of years, he looks like a Welsh pony standing next to another mature buck and a mature doe standing next to him looks positively diminutive.
Post by: fishnfur on November 02, 2015, 11:18:59 PM
Post by: JDHasty on November 03, 2015, 02:22:24 AM
:dunno: The thread is about San Juan blacktails, but this deer is from the mainland is it not? Seeing a deer this size in the San Juans would be extremely rare.The buck in the attached image was a lowland blacktail from Jefferson County. If you look at the picture, you can see he was built like a bull and is my largest bodied blacktail, although I have shot a few that were close to his body size. He weighed 190lbs hanging with his skin, head, front feet, bloodshot and fat trimmed off. If you estimate the weight of the removed body mass, he was easily 250 plus pounds. I think like people, deer from the same species come in a variation of sizes, even from the same area of harvest.
That's what I'm talking about.
There really are some really massive blacktail bucks out there and this is an excellent example of one. I've seen two and heard of a few more, they are not common at all, but they exist. You say this one is built like a bull, that sounds a lot like the massive one I have seen the last couple of years, he looks like a Welsh pony standing next to another mature buck and a mature doe standing next to him looks positively diminutive.
Nope, it started off about the size of SJ blacktails vs S Puget Sound island blacktails and then there was skepticism expressed regarding blacktails in general breaking the 250 lb mark. And yes it appears that seeing a deer this size in the SJs would be extremely unlikely, the consensus appears that it is exceedingly rare, but not unheard of regarding coastal blacktails in general.
Post by: O. hemionus on November 03, 2015, 06:18:01 AM
Post by: Bob33 on November 03, 2015, 06:47:13 AM
Post by: Special T on November 04, 2015, 11:34:27 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 05, 2015, 08:22:35 AM
Post by: blackmouther on November 05, 2015, 06:22:24 PM
Post by: blackmouther on November 07, 2015, 10:07:17 PM
Post by: lokidog on November 07, 2015, 10:46:35 PM
No skeptism on other areas, other than a blacktail deer hanging at a butcher shop with no head, hide, guts or legs. To answer the question asked by the thread starter, the san juan island area bucks are dinks and don't compare to mainland or south sound bucks, in order to do a head mount a taxidermist would have to use a coyote head. They really are that small.I've had two taxidermists happy to get mature BT capes from Decatur, a little bigger than coyotes, I would guess....
Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
Post by: fishnfur on November 08, 2015, 01:05:12 PM
No skeptism on other areas, other than a blacktail deer hanging at a butcher shop with no head, hide, guts or legs. To answer the question asked by the thread starter, the san juan island area bucks are dinks and don't compare to mainland or south sound bucks, in order to do a head mount a taxidermist would have to use a coyote head. They really are that small.
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: Squirrel sized yearlings.
Post by: lokidog on November 09, 2015, 10:42:57 PM
Post by: JakeLand on November 09, 2015, 11:20:19 PM