Post by: blackpowderhunter on December 13, 2015, 08:00:22 PM
I read a lot on rokslide as well as on here, but constantly the questions seems to come up about the "500 yard" deer and elk rifle.
What would you all say for a non magnum/ non wild cat (read as more mild recoil and easily available) caliber that is capable of deer and elk out to the 4-500 yard range.
I have been spending a lot of time learning a lot about ballistics and different bullet construction recently, as I am a muzzle loader hunter for both deer and elk, thus keeping my shots inside of 100 yards with a solid hard cast lead bullet.
It seems that most people call the requirement for elk 1500 lb/ft of energy, and most bullets require around 1800-2000 fps for proper expansion on impact.
With this information, it seems that even a lot of factory loads of the 30-06 make the oldy but goody caliber very capable to these respectable ranges.
Just thought I would pose the question to stir up some friendly discussion as we slide into winter ;)
Post by: 257wbymagkiller on December 13, 2015, 08:16:31 PM
Post by: Dan-o on December 13, 2015, 08:34:14 PM
30-06 is a good choice as well as a .308. It really comes down to bullet placement.
:yeah:
Tough to beat the 30-06.
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 13, 2015, 08:41:30 PM
Make no mistake speed makes up for mass in the 30-06 out to 500 yards. A 165gr bullet with quiet a bit more speed than a 180gr will serve you well to 500 yards.
Then again it's all where you put it. My younger brother has killed Mule dear at 496 yards and 302 yards with a 6.5 Grendel and elk out to 411 yards with the same 16" 6.5 Grendel carbine and a 120gr ballistic tip.
Then again he can shoot.
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on December 13, 2015, 08:43:06 PM
Post by: mountainman on December 13, 2015, 09:03:11 PM
Post by: high country on December 13, 2015, 09:04:37 PM
For a 500 yard point and click, I like the 257 wby. Minimal recoil, holdover and fast as lighting. Not so great in the wind.....but extra forgiveness on the holdover end of it.
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 13, 2015, 09:06:11 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 13, 2015, 09:11:00 PM
There's a lot more 500 yard rifles than 500 yard shooters.
For a 500 yard point and click, I like the 257 wby. Minimal recoil, holdover and fast as lighting. Not so great in the wind.....but extra forgiveness on the holdover end of it.
Still a temperamental bullet weight at distance on Elk, I shot the .257 Arnold magnum for some time. Put it on the money and your good to go. Add in the field condition variables and I was always much more comfortable driving a .300 or .338 Win Mag at distance.
Post by: Igor on December 13, 2015, 09:14:06 PM
.270 is a great choice. One of my buddies has taken elk from 800 yards with his and factory fusion rounds.
I shoot a .270 with 150 gr. Federal ammo. I'm curious what the hold-over is @ 800 yards?
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on December 13, 2015, 09:17:11 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 13, 2015, 09:17:31 PM
.270 is a great choice. One of my buddies has taken elk from 800 yards with his and factory fusion rounds.
I shoot a .270 with 150 gr. Federal ammo. I'm curious what the hold-over is @ 800 yards?
If you know your real world speed from your rifle and understand "Minute of angle" and have optics capable of such adjustment. It's about as easy as it gets. Free ballistics software everywhere to give you your 800 yard dope.
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 13, 2015, 09:19:16 PM
Quite a few good rounds out there. Currently I'm shooting a 7mm mag getting ready for some longer shots in Montana next season. For your purposes I really think you can't go wrong with the .270 or .30-06. For both of these ammo is everywhere and not expensive. The other round I would be really looking at if I were you would be the .25-06 this will do the trick on elk as long as you do your part and shoot decent bullets.
The 7mm Magnum with 160gr Accubonds is a killer at distance.
Post by: 2labs on December 13, 2015, 09:23:26 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 13, 2015, 09:26:15 PM
Cause 6.5 blow groceries. 140 with a huge bc. Not a belted mag. It sucks
OP mentioned non-wildcat. The .260 is a great cartridge but out to 500 yards a 30-06 with the heavies walks all over it, as much as it pains me to say. >:(
Post by: high country on December 13, 2015, 09:27:17 PM
There's a lot more 500 yard rifles than 500 yard shooters.
For a 500 yard point and click, I like the 257 wby. Minimal recoil, holdover and fast as lighting. Not so great in the wind.....but extra forgiveness on the holdover end of it.
Still a temperamental bullet weight at distance on Elk, I shot the .257 Arnold magnum for some time. Put it on the money and your good to go. Add in the field condition variables and I was always much more comfortable driving a .300 or .338 Win Mag at distance.
If temperamental means dang deadly.....then I agree.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi193.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz16%2Fgyonemura%2FP2100213Small_zps66a99b78.jpg&hash=c62e3e26d57f7d003c609c210cd4150a668a57cd) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/gyonemura/media/P2100213Small_zps66a99b78.jpg.html)
Post by: Bean Counter on December 13, 2015, 09:28:36 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 13, 2015, 09:30:29 PM
There's a lot more 500 yard rifles than 500 yard shooters.
For a 500 yard point and click, I like the 257 wby. Minimal recoil, holdover and fast as lighting. Not so great in the wind.....but extra forgiveness on the holdover end of it.
Still a temperamental bullet weight at distance on Elk, I shot the .257 Arnold magnum for some time. Put it on the money and your good to go. Add in the field condition variables and I was always much more comfortable driving a .300 or .338 Win Mag at distance.
If temperamental means dang deadly.....then I agree.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi193.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz16%2Fgyonemura%2FP2100213Small_zps66a99b78.jpg&hash=c62e3e26d57f7d003c609c210cd4150a668a57cd) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/gyonemura/media/P2100213Small_zps66a99b78.jpg.html)
I can kill a elk with my Chevy 2500HD, deads ... Dead but it's all amusing for those of us who have shot the chit out of game for a looooong time. 90% of the game is smoked by 10% of the Hunter's :tup:
Post by: high country on December 13, 2015, 09:30:55 PM
Cause 6.5 blow groceries. 140 with a huge bc. Not a belted mag. It sucks
OP mentioned non-wildcat. The .260 is a great cartridge but out to 500 yards a 30-06 with the heavies walks all over it, as much as it pains me to say. >:(
I've killed better than a dozen elk with the 260ai, which I push to 2850 ish depending on the rifle and have to say that I've bang flopped more elk faster with this than any of my super magnums. It just works.
Post by: high country on December 13, 2015, 09:32:58 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi193.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz16%2Fgyonemura%2FIMAG0004_zps5fd87831.jpg&hash=475ab3e9e59edc93b8c00ff11a0645d6f5754f35) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/gyonemura/media/IMAG0004_zps5fd87831.jpg.html)
Post by: 2labs on December 13, 2015, 09:34:04 PM
Post by: high country on December 13, 2015, 09:36:11 PM
6.5 is a wildcat?....
That was a 6.5-06 with a muzzle velocity of 2875. A standard 260 could get there, a 260ai does also.
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 13, 2015, 09:39:01 PM
Cause 6.5 blow groceries. 140 with a huge bc. Not a belted mag. It sucks
OP mentioned non-wildcat. The .260 is a great cartridge but out to 500 yards a 30-06 with the heavies walks all over it, as much as it pains me to say. >:(
I've killed better than a dozen elk with the 260ai, which I push to 2850 ish depending on the rifle and have to say that I've bang flopped more elk faster with this than any of my super magnums. It just works.
Totally possible, what people fail to understand time and time again. Animals are like people, none are exactly the same. You can smack one guy square on the chin and he will drop, the next may clean your clock.
I prefer more horse power. Unlike the punk kid chiping out a diesel, putting the loudest muffler possible on it. With out a dime to drop on anything to tow. Then showing up with a Tikka .308 and he's the man out to 1200 yards. He's read too many dumb azz's post on HuntWA. :tup:
When you've killed plenty of chit, the rest is fluff.
Post by: high country on December 13, 2015, 09:45:54 PM
I'm building my girls some 6.5x47's just because I know they work.
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 13, 2015, 09:47:20 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 13, 2015, 10:03:55 PM
Of all the variables that make a 500 yard shot on game possible and ethical, caliber is probably not in the top five.
A 3006 will meet your stated requirements.
If you want to increase energy over a 30-06 you'll probably encounter more recoil unless you shoot a smaller diameter bullet.
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 13, 2015, 10:11:53 PM
Post by: Vo2max on December 13, 2015, 10:44:19 PM
Quite a few good rounds out there. Currently I'm shooting a 7mm mag getting ready for some longer shots in Montana next season. For your purposes I really think you can't go wrong with the .270 or .30-06. For both of these ammo is everywhere and not expensive. The other round I would be really looking at if I were you would be the .25-06 this will do the trick on elk as long as you do your part and shoot decent bullets.
The 7mm Magnum with 160gr Accubonds is a killer at distance.
:yeah:
Post by: mountainman on December 15, 2015, 09:27:58 AM
Discussions of caliber rarely remain "friendly" for very long on Hunt WA, as you can see.
Never do..you have to weed out the nonsense and chest beating that goes on. You know, the ones who say one day the .243 or the Grendel (insert flavor of the day) are perfect for elk way out there. Then the next forum, it's " nothing short of my Super Magnum) will reliably harvest an elk at long range. Most of these haven't harvested more than an animal or two to back these opinions (and that's what they are) up. Best advice on looking for advice, is that the truth usually rides right down the middle. And that is where the old bread and butter 30-06 fills the niche nicely. ;)
Post by: theleo on December 15, 2015, 09:55:00 AM
Post by: coachcw on December 15, 2015, 12:52:48 PM
Post by: BigGoonTuna on December 15, 2015, 02:40:34 PM
Post by: coachcw on December 15, 2015, 03:49:34 PM
Post by: 2labs on December 15, 2015, 04:20:58 PM
Post by: 2labs on December 15, 2015, 04:36:46 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 15, 2015, 05:01:58 PM
Sorry I mentioned 6.5! Guess reading is no good! And I feel idiotic. Carry on brain sturgeons.
Haha! Some are spun a little tight. :tup:
Post by: WoodlandShooter on December 16, 2015, 10:39:54 AM
150 Grain ABLR, pushed by 56.2 grain H4831SC, 3.385COAL, 2960 FPS from my rifle.
at 500 yards, 2.2 MILS for drop, 0.4MILS windage for 5mph Full value wind. 100 yard Zero.
Impact velocity, 2201 FPS..1613 Foot Pounds of Energy at impact.
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 16, 2015, 09:14:30 PM
Post by: kentrek on December 16, 2015, 09:41:43 PM
Post by: Angry Perch on December 17, 2015, 12:03:08 PM
Kidding!
Post by: theleo on December 17, 2015, 12:15:48 PM
i'm just curious about when 500 yards became "mid range?" :yike: i came into this thread ready to suggest something like a .358 win or .45-70...
Those would be close in thumpers, you'd need to be at least looking at a 35 Whelen and the 45-90 or 45-110 to get to mid range.
Post by: Bwana Bob on December 17, 2015, 12:25:24 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 17, 2015, 01:22:27 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 17, 2015, 01:25:21 PM
Post by: mountainman on December 17, 2015, 01:36:25 PM
Weatherby is supposed to be introducing a 6.5-300 Wby Mag. I know you said non magnum, but since all the other 6.5s are being listed thought it felt left out.👆could be a fun one to play with!
Post by: Bob33 on December 17, 2015, 01:37:53 PM
They already did.Weatherby is supposed to be introducing a 6.5-300 Wby Mag. I know you said non magnum, but since all the other 6.5s are being listed thought it felt left out.👆could be a fun one to play with!
Post by: Reidus on December 17, 2015, 01:44:04 PM
:chuckle:
Post by: Bob33 on December 17, 2015, 01:47:00 PM
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on December 17, 2015, 01:51:16 PM
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on December 17, 2015, 01:58:45 PM
Post by: ShaneTyTrey on December 17, 2015, 02:24:13 PM
That is what I shoot, 7mm with 160gr Accubonds, haven't done any shooting at 500 personally but it is awesome to 400 for sure and if I practiced more I believe the results would be the same at 500. Your $2.00 - $2.50/round but it is an awesome bullet.Quite a few good rounds out there. Currently I'm shooting a 7mm mag getting ready for some longer shots in Montana next season. For your purposes I really think you can't go wrong with the .270 or .30-06. For both of these ammo is everywhere and not expensive. The other round I would be really looking at if I were you would be the .25-06 this will do the trick on elk as long as you do your part and shoot decent bullets.
The 7mm Magnum with 160gr Accubonds is a killer at distance.