Post by: Emptyhanded on December 23, 2015, 11:28:42 AM
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Post by: Waldo84 on December 23, 2015, 02:03:20 PM
Casey
Post by: Colin on December 23, 2015, 02:10:29 PM
You could try teaching a conditioned hold or forced hold.
Post by: Emptyhanded on December 23, 2015, 02:33:31 PM
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Post by: Waldo84 on December 23, 2015, 03:03:43 PM
Post by: Emptyhanded on December 23, 2015, 03:39:34 PM
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Post by: Revwrangler on December 23, 2015, 04:20:47 PM
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Post by: NW-GSP on December 23, 2015, 09:19:18 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 23, 2015, 10:42:48 PM
Post by: Brad Harshman on December 24, 2015, 04:52:25 AM
Force fetch is the correct answer in almost all situations however, it should be just a little piece of the big training puzzle. A retrieve is just a tiny piece of training. A retrieve is not a force fetch. If you want a ff, you want a totally trained dog. Carrying a bird to you has little to do with ff. (Force fetch). Most pointer guys call a trained hold FF. Properly done, ff is just a small but important piece of a greater goal and training to understand pressure and more advanced skills related to training. Ff is just a single piece of a bigger picture. Most folks only hunt with dogs half way finished and it works out fine. Most are just partially finished which is great for a hunting partnerI couldn't agree more.
OP you said your dog is 6 months old. That's still a puppy! Bring down your expectations for a puppy. Remember, he's still learning about the world and his role in it. Retrieving/fetching should still be a game for him. Look, I'm not a professional trainer, but I've had the pleasure of training three dogs now. Each one has turned out better than the one before. I am the reason, I've learned from my mistakes along the way. All of my dogs have wanted to fetch, my first quit because i scolded her too many times when she didnt do it perfect. My currect lab has responded very well to playful training, nothing forced, everything is fun with lots of rewards/appreciation. She's not a perfect force fetching dog. But she loves to retrieve and for the most part, will hold the bird until I give the release command. She didn't understand it until she was two. She LOVES retrieving/fetching and that's the most important part.
It will happen for you too. Just be realistic and patient. He's your companion, your his master, be the master that you'd want to have.
Post by: Emptyhanded on December 24, 2015, 07:57:26 AM
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Post by: REHJWA on December 25, 2015, 12:03:15 AM
Post by: 7mmBuckley on December 28, 2015, 08:21:29 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 28, 2015, 12:26:34 PM
Post by: lokidog on December 28, 2015, 08:07:04 PM
I'd listen to the bird guys above though.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 28, 2015, 11:51:03 PM
Post by: Emptyhanded on December 29, 2015, 08:12:59 AM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F12%2F29%2F72c3792610e3cde6200a1f410ba922b0.jpg&hash=cae0553273d33712f9f768c9f135bb44715a1395)
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Post by: SpringerFan on March 09, 2016, 06:55:38 PM
One thing you can do is immediately remove him from the situation. That is, give a stern no, and put him in his kenel. This will make him think about what his actions resulted in.
Trying to continue to train them after not obeying a command or displaying bad behavior only reinforces the behavior.
And let him be a puppy. Don't over train. Make it fun.
Good luck!
Post by: Wacenturion on March 09, 2016, 09:54:51 PM
Try this, with a dummy if he interested in it or a dead bird he want to have (if no dummy interest). When he gets to it, instead of standing your ground, make sure you get the pup's attention and then proceed to walk away. Pup may want to go with you, but not leave bird/dummy. If he or she follows hopefully with item in mouth, slow down slightly just enough for him to get to you without knowning you're stopping and reach down in a slower stride and gently share for a moment and then get the bird or dummy....then praise, hugs and all good things he'll associate later with as being a reward for doing something he enjoys.
Worth a try. One thing about dog training...they are eager to learn, but you have to improvise and figure out how to set them up for success. After they do a specific thing a couple times...they get it.
Repeat the above until you're sure he is doing it as described. Then keep shortening up the distance you walk away until you don't actually don't move but stand your ground when he comes back to you. :tup:
Post by: Emptyhanded on March 09, 2016, 10:59:38 PM
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Post by: PA BEN on March 10, 2016, 12:35:19 PM
Post by: JJD on March 10, 2016, 02:28:59 PM
Picking up objects and holding them is just a nice side benefit.
How about using a long lead to fix such issues? Everybody talkin about FF, I start teaching with the aid of a long lead way before 6 mo.
Start out with pigions at about 14 to 16 weeks, pup on a long lead, if it doesnt bring the bird, reel him in. If he's pulling feathers, its likely he will grab the bird because he will not want to leave the bird behind. My pups are not off a long lead in training till they are at least 4 to 5 mo.
Just some thoughts.
Post by: NW-GSP on March 10, 2016, 03:09:45 PM
Proponents of "the trained retrieve" or "conditioned retrieve" (politically correct terminology for force fetch) espouse the fact that you have a complete dog that is working for you and not just because he wants to...these are not mutually exclusive, however; the dog can still enjoy/want to do the work, but he also has to do it.
The argument is made that sooner or later an unforced dog will quit on you and then you're screwed. What are you going to do? With an unforced dog, you have no recourse other than to try and coerce him via play or some other method to induce him to make a retrieve. On the other hand, it's contended that a forced dog can be made to retrieve because you have conditioned the response to pressure and getting something in his mouth; you have a tool to call upon if your dog refuses to go.
Force fetch also has many by-product effects other than just getting an object in a mouth. It can clean up mouth issues (rolling, chomping, a sloppy hold, hard mouth, etc), it helps establish the handler/trainer as the Alpha in the pack hierarchy, it helps bring hard-headed/dominant dogs in line while also bolding up timid dogs. "Force programs" often use the same of idea of "turning pressure off" during the force fetch process (ear pinch, open mouth, object in mouth, pinch turned off) to teach more advanced concepts like taking lines; holding lines through water, suction, diversions, etc; driving hard on the initial lines and many other things
Post by: PA BEN on March 10, 2016, 05:22:39 PM
As far as I am concerned, FF is more about an attitude adjustment in a young retriever. It takes retrieving from being a game the pup will play if it wants to, to being the dogs job that it will do when you tell it to. An absolute must for dog that will go on to advanced work.:yeah:
Picking up objects and holding them is just a nice side benefit.
How about using a long lead to fix such issues? Everybody talkin about FF, I start teaching with the aid of a long lead way before 6 mo.
Start out with pigions at about 14 to 16 weeks, pup on a long lead, if it doesnt bring the bird, reel him in. If he's pulling feathers, its likely he will grab the bird because he will not want to leave the bird behind. My pups are not off a long lead in training till they are at least 4 to 5 mo.
Just some thoughts.
Post by: JJD on March 10, 2016, 06:06:14 PM
The reason behind FF is far more then just the dog learning that he has to retrieve what you tell them to.
Proponents of "the trained retrieve" or "conditioned retrieve" (politically correct terminology for force fetch) espouse the fact that you have a complete dog that is working for you and not just because he wants to...these are not mutually exclusive, however; the dog can still enjoy/want to do the work, but he also has to do it.
The argument is made that sooner or later an unforced dog will quit on you and then you're screwed. What are you going to do? With an unforced dog, you have no recourse other than to try and coerce him via play or some other method to induce him to make a retrieve. On the other hand, it's contended that a forced dog can be made to retrieve because you have conditioned the response to pressure and getting something in his mouth; you have a tool to call upon if your dog refuses to go.
Force fetch also has many by-product effects other than just getting an object in a mouth. It can clean up mouth issues (rolling, chomping, a sloppy hold, hard mouth, etc), it helps establish the handler/trainer as the Alpha in the pack hierarchy, it helps bring hard-headed/dominant dogs in line while also bolding up timid dogs. "Force programs" often use the same of idea of "turning pressure off" during the force fetch process (ear pinch, open mouth, object in mouth, pinch turned off) to teach more advanced concepts like taking lines; holding lines through water, suction, diversions, etc; driving hard on the initial lines and many other things
I don't believe you can "teach" a dog any of the advanced tasks you suggest with force fetch any more than you can "teach" them anything with an e-collar. I will agree they learn how to handle pressure. These training tools can only be used to enforce what a dog already knows.
Post by: NW-GSP on March 10, 2016, 06:14:31 PM
Post by: wildweeds on March 10, 2016, 09:55:26 PM
Post by: AspenBud on March 11, 2016, 09:14:12 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on March 12, 2016, 08:40:38 AM
He's been doing a lot better the past couple months. I've had him on some planted birds and he is no longer pulling feathers. He will pick them up and bring them to me but drops them 5-10 feet in front of me, so working on the hold is our next step. Like most have said he's still a pup so we are both learning as we go. Thanks for the tips!
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Do the same as I laid for for the hold until he gives it to you. Have him sit when he does get to you...repeat, repeat. Repitition until he does it all the time, shorten distance, then let him retrieve come around and sit next to you.
Post by: REHJWA on March 13, 2016, 03:12:46 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on March 13, 2016, 05:42:03 PM
Also give the bird back to him after he delivers it to you and say "hold" then "hand"and take it from him.... He will be more apt to bring it to you if he doesn't " loose it" when you take it from him when he brings it to you....:tup:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 15, 2016, 09:09:13 AM
When you have force fetch trained a dog they understand that when you give the command "fetch" they have NO choice but to come back with what you have told them to retrieve so yes it does help with teaching them other things. I agree that you never use a e collar unless it is to enforce something the dog has already been taught.
force fetch and "here" are two worldly different concepts and training approaches. "Here" can be it's own force program on some dogs. Especially, ones which are not automatically reliable retrievers right out of the box.