Post by: syoungs on December 26, 2015, 05:23:46 PM
I'm going to be using this round as a springboard to get back into reloading with my old man, so go easy on me if I come across somewhat dense lol.
My goals for this:
Hard hitting, knockdown stopping power on large game.
Should be a sub 150yd gun, but would like to stretch it to 200 if possible.
Relatively common components without using exotic powders or primers
I've read alot about this round on other forums, but I'm experiencing information overload at this point.
Anyone have a good load worked up they would like to share, or any tips to get the most out if this cartridge?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 26, 2015, 09:59:29 PM
I had a lot of fun with my 45-70. It was a hard hitter! Good luck and I like your choice! :tup:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 26, 2015, 10:34:18 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 26, 2015, 10:35:01 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 26, 2015, 10:40:57 PM
It's a shame they don't make the 300 gr nosler partition anymore. That was a fantastic bullet. I've shot the Speer deep curls out of my muzzy for about 4 seasons now and they are pretty pimp. Between me, and the crew we have taken about 10 elk and 15 deer with them. Devastating performance on game and reasonably priced.I wish I was part of that crew. Too bad I can't hit anything with a muzzleloader! :chuckle: :'(
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 26, 2015, 11:03:15 PM
Ya you're not welcome at muzzy camp. Afraid you'll jinx us all :chuckle:It's a shame they don't make the 300 gr nosler partition anymore. That was a fantastic bullet. I've shot the Speer deep curls out of my muzzy for about 4 seasons now and they are pretty pimp. Between me, and the crew we have taken about 10 elk and 15 deer with them. Devastating performance on game and reasonably priced.I wish I was part of that crew. Too bad I can't hit anything with a muzzleloader! :chuckle: :'(
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 26, 2015, 11:23:30 PM
dangit. I was afraid you'd say that! It's not my fault tho.Ya you're not welcome at muzzy camp. Afraid you'll jinx us all :chuckle:It's a shame they don't make the 300 gr nosler partition anymore. That was a fantastic bullet. I've shot the Speer deep curls out of my muzzy for about 4 seasons now and they are pretty pimp. Between me, and the crew we have taken about 10 elk and 15 deer with them. Devastating performance on game and reasonably priced.I wish I was part of that crew. Too bad I can't hit anything with a muzzleloader! :chuckle: :'(
Post by: yorketransport on December 27, 2015, 06:53:38 AM
For powders I always liked 4198 (either hodgdon or imr) and H335. I used Winchester brass exclusively for my 45-70.
Andrew
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 27, 2015, 07:41:05 AM
Post by: syoungs on December 27, 2015, 11:28:53 PM
With the Speers being .452 would they work in a 45-70? Seems like .458 is the status quo for the caliber?
Post by: jaymark6655 on December 28, 2015, 04:40:34 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 28, 2015, 05:41:45 AM
I like the hornady 350 interlock round nose, might give that a try.They do make a .458 I believe. Its like a 325 or 350gr.
With the Speers being .452 would they work in a 45-70? Seems like .458 is the status quo for the caliber?
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 28, 2015, 06:40:28 AM
When I had a Marlin 1895. I would shoot 300 grain Hornady interlock hollow points. They were hell on elk within a couple hundred yards. Worked very well.
This. Remington or Hornady 300 grain HPs at approximately 2000 fps is about +4-5" at 100 yards, zeroish around 175, but -18ish around 200 yards. IMR4895, IIRC, and it was near max load.
Ensure you check your loads cycle smoothly. I had to hone some of the action parts to ensure smooth cycling, even with factory loads.
A Wild West Guns trigger is a worthy upgrade, and I like the XS ghost ring sights.
Post by: theleo on December 28, 2015, 09:17:27 AM
1) Are you wanting to go with jacketed or lead bullets?
2) Does your rifle have the micro-groove barrel?
3) Just how hot do you want to run it?
The powders you choose will depend on how fast you want to push things, Hodgdon data will shows running compressed loads of Varget for some of the upper end stuff. Common powders would be 4895, 3031, Accurate 5744 (but is kind of pricey), 4064, and as remember RX #7. The standardized bullet diameter is .458 and that's what pretty much all of the jacketed bullets will be. Commercial cast bullets are normally .459 and some places will let you order .460 or larger. The only thing to really keep an eye on for nonstandard stuff is the Hornady lever-evolution rounds. That has trimmed down brass to make the flex-tip bullet fit the COAL so it will feed in lever guns. As memory serves, you are also required to trim standard 45-70 brass down if you want to use the flex-tip bullets. Hope this all helps.
Post by: syoungs on December 28, 2015, 11:26:51 AM
It has ballard rifling, not micro groove
as hot as I need to achieve the first.
not really interested in running the lever-evolution rounds really, unless the performance gain is very large, which by my research it doesn't seem to be night and day.
Post by: theleo on December 28, 2015, 01:23:38 PM
Post by: mikeybuck on December 28, 2015, 01:33:27 PM
405 gr woodleigh or the 350 gr hornady interlock.
H4198
Stay away from the 400 gr speer bullets. Bullets fall completely a part after hitting bones.
I don't like hard cast lead. Don't care for drill bits. My goal is for the bullet to mushroom out and bust both front shoulders and stay inside the anamal.
A 300 win mag with 180 gr pills has more recoil than a short barrel guide gun with hot 400 gr loads.
Post by: jrebel on December 28, 2015, 02:11:25 PM
Post by: beaslayer6 on December 31, 2015, 09:30:17 AM
Post by: theleo on December 31, 2015, 11:02:39 AM
Has anyone been able to match the fps of these guys stuff. I have been working on a load to match there 500gr and haven't even come close. I send to hell with it and bought some awhile back kick like hell. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.htmlA quick google search seems to say RX7 and 4198 should get you there. I wonder the barrel length they used to get the readings though. Most of their list of recommended firearms normally have longer barrels than guide guns have. I have to ask, how is it you don't have 19 of those rounds in a box somewhere?
Post by: syoungs on January 02, 2016, 06:46:44 PM
The demise of the buffalo was with 400 grain cast bullets doing around 1200 fps from trapdoors. If your want lots of thump look at 350 grain bullets and up. I'd say jacketed stuff will get you where you want to be as they'll expand for you. Today's commercial cast bullets are HARD and you'll be relying on the size of the meplat on the nose to do the damage and they don't really mushroom. My old man had good luck with 405 grain lazer cast's in his marlin. I've been playing with some lighter cast bullets in a 45-90 and have had some good results. If you want I'd give you some to try. They're cast with gas checks and I have pushed them up to around 1400fps, much faster than 1500 fps on 350+grain bullets and shooting them on a bench becomes more of a chore than a pleasure.
I might take ya up on that, I'd gladly trade ya something for em though :tup:
Post by: theleo on January 04, 2016, 07:13:07 AM
I've got a pot full of lead for making 38/357 bullets at the moment. my Next project will be more .459 bullets. I'll give you a couple of bullet weights to play with. Don't worry about payment or trades, it's just a hobby for me and I don't have enough money tied up in lead for me worry about giving someone a few bullets to try. Just pay it forward when you get a chance some time.The demise of the buffalo was with 400 grain cast bullets doing around 1200 fps from trapdoors. If your want lots of thump look at 350 grain bullets and up. I'd say jacketed stuff will get you where you want to be as they'll expand for you. Today's commercial cast bullets are HARD and you'll be relying on the size of the meplat on the nose to do the damage and they don't really mushroom. My old man had good luck with 405 grain lazer cast's in his marlin. I've been playing with some lighter cast bullets in a 45-90 and have had some good results. If you want I'd give you some to try. They're cast with gas checks and I have pushed them up to around 1400fps, much faster than 1500 fps on 350+grain bullets and shooting them on a bench becomes more of a chore than a pleasure.
I might take ya up on that, I'd gladly trade ya something for em though :tup:
Post by: birddogdad on January 04, 2016, 07:51:25 AM
Post by: high country on January 04, 2016, 10:21:32 AM
Post by: JDHasty on January 05, 2016, 08:36:20 AM
I like the hornady 350 interlock round nose, might give that a try.
With the Speers being .452 would they work in a 45-70? Seems like .458 is the status quo for the caliber?
I used that Hornaday 350 RN w/IMR 4198 when I was using it for bear hunting. The recoil was absolutely brutal off the bench, but I never had a problem w/it in the field. That bullet would expand to about twice diameter and would smash bones and punch through. It did not bloodshot a lot of meat either.
Great gun!!
Post by: mikeybuck on January 06, 2016, 07:14:59 PM
Speer 400
Google search shows I'm not alone.
Post by: syoungs on March 16, 2016, 09:47:56 PM
I settled on trying hornady 350g flat nose jacketed bullets, h4198 with cc1 200 primers.
Did 18 at 49.5g, 8 at 52g and 10 at 54g.
I fumbled a couple cases of the 49.5, so I recharged at 54, as that's what my powder measure was set to. These numbers are from the hogdon website, should get out to shoot and get some velocities this weekend. I'm hoping the higher loads don't thump to hard on the ol shoulder lol
I've got 50 475g cast bullets, don't know who makes them, my dad found them on trapperman.com witg 40 primed cases for a decent deal, I'll probably load those soon, gotta decide on a load for em. Don't know if I wanna push en hard or just use em as plinkers yet.
Post by: theleo on March 17, 2016, 08:30:39 AM
Post by: JDHasty on March 17, 2016, 09:30:09 AM
I recommend shooting those loads standing up before you try them shooting over a bench. If your rifle has a scope on it, don't creep up on it.
Listen to this man, he knows what he is talking about!!
Post by: syoungs on March 17, 2016, 09:46:25 AM
After a little more research it seems like these loads are gonna be pounders, well see how it goes, I might keep a few for novelties, and start my next loads lighter lol
Post by: theleo on March 17, 2016, 09:59:24 AM
After a little more research it seems like these loads are gonna be pounders, well see how it goes, I might keep a few for novelties, and start my next loads lighter lol
Wear a T-shirt and take before and after pics of your shoulder.
I warned you once on here about pushing bullets up much past 1500 fps and them not being pleasant. As I recall the 1895's have a hard plastic plate as apposed to a recoil pad, your loads in that rifle will put a stiff 180 grain 30-06 load in perspective real quick.
Post by: syoungs on March 17, 2016, 10:04:51 AM
Post by: theleo on March 17, 2016, 10:06:48 AM
That's extremely debatable JD, but I do know how to develop loads for a 45-70. Start with Trap-door loads and go up until your shoulder says that it's had enough. Most have enough by the time your get to 1700-1800 fps. I don't know anyone that shoot's them regularly and enjoys them past 1800 fps.I recommend shooting those loads standing up before you try them shooting over a bench. If your rifle has a scope on it, don't creep up on it.
Listen to this man, he knows what he is talking about!!
Post by: Fl0und3rz on March 17, 2016, 10:15:21 AM
With 300 grain JHP/JSP, the 1900-2000 fps load is about a 175 yard load with +3-4 inches at 100 yards. No need for a scope at that range unless your eyesight is really deteriorated.
Have fun. Looking forward to seeing your results. :chuckle:
Post by: JDHasty on March 17, 2016, 10:27:34 AM
That's extremely debatable JD, but I do know how to develop loads for a 45-70. Start with Trap-door loads and go up until your shoulder says that it's had enough. Most have enough by the time your get to 1700-1800 fps. I don't know anyone that shoot's them regularly and enjoys them past 1800 fps.I recommend shooting those loads standing up before you try them shooting over a bench. If your rifle has a scope on it, don't creep up on it.
Listen to this man, he knows what he is talking about!!
I shot a heck of a lot of them and they are vicious, but one thing that is for sure and for certain, max loads out of an 1895 Marlin w/the Hornady 350 they will stem to stern any black bear that ever walked the planet. Shoot through is an every-time event, be very, very careful if you are hunting w/dogs.
Post by: syoungs on March 21, 2016, 12:51:12 PM
seems that on some forums, they act like the max hornady book load of 54g h4198 is a dangerous load for these guns, I cant see it being to dangerous as its published, though it is 2 grains over the modern gun starting load?
aside from recoil, does anyone see any problems running them? :dunno:
Post by: JDHasty on March 21, 2016, 01:16:58 PM
didn't get a chance to shoot this last weekend, range was way to busy for me to keep em tied up while I set up the chrono, and the other range had a hunters safety class running, next weekend I should make it out for some testing. I did load up 14 more though, starting at the max trapdoor loads, I will work up until my shoulder cant take it.
seems that on some forums, they act like the max hornady book load of 54g h4198 is a dangerous load for these guns, I cant see it being to dangerous as its published, though it is 2 grains over the modern gun starting load?
aside from recoil, does anyone see any problems running them? :dunno:
I used IMR 4198 and will have to look up the load I used. It was twenty-five years ago. I shoot Lightfield 3" Hybrid Elites out of my Deerslayer II and the recoil from my Marlin was every bit as brutal when sitting shooting off a bench. When I built my shooting benches I purposely mad it so that I could use the stool legs to extend the bench legs (hey, if you are standing up shooting you don't need a stool anyway) and shoot standing for that reason. It makes a huge difference.
Actually being able to extend the legs way up also will let me set up on very uneven ground, like w/one or two legs down into a ditch and still get it solid and level.
Post by: theleo on March 21, 2016, 01:41:10 PM
didn't get a chance to shoot this last weekend, range was way to busy for me to keep em tied up while I set up the chrono, and the other range had a hunters safety class running, next weekend I should make it out for some testing. I did load up 14 more though, starting at the max trapdoor loads, I will work up until my shoulder cant take it.
seems that on some forums, they act like the max hornady book load of 54g h4198 is a dangerous load for these guns, I cant see it being to dangerous as its published, though it is 2 grains over the modern gun starting load?
aside from recoil, does anyone see any problems running them? :dunno:
I'm guessing we are still talking 350 grain bullets here. The Hodgdon site shows you being .5 grains over for lever loads, you can possibly get away with it but there's factors at play that you can't always account for. Use at your own risk sort of thing...
Post by: syoungs on March 21, 2016, 05:41:53 PM
Post by: syoungs on March 21, 2016, 05:45:33 PM
Post by: theleo on March 21, 2016, 05:51:20 PM
Yep, 54 in the case, hodgon site says 54 max for me to, wonder if it shows more ot different data on a pc instead of mobileBrain fart on my part, 54 grains is correct. Check your over all length against there's and make sure that the bullet isn't run run up to and engaging the lands.
Post by: syoungs on March 21, 2016, 07:49:07 PM
Post by: theleo on March 22, 2016, 06:27:40 AM
Post by: syoungs on March 22, 2016, 07:37:56 AM
Post by: fremont on March 23, 2016, 05:45:27 PM
Post by: syoungs on April 19, 2016, 06:46:32 PM
5 shot average was 2008.5 fps,
2033
2023
1970
2009
I'd like to see tighter then a 62fps spread, or am I alright with that?
After seeing these chrono numbers I didn't mess with shooting the 54g loads.
Accuracy at 46g was sub par, though minute of bear woulda been no problem. At 50 yds, with the stock iron semi buckhorn sights I was able to group 5 in less the 4" which for me is a-ok. I'm gonna play around a little. Ore around the 50g of powder mark, with a extra leupold 3x9 I have mounted up to do the accuracy work.
Seems like I was running a touch fast for my load to, but I ran some known pistol rounds over the chrono and it was within 15fps. Anything stand out as off to anyone?
Post by: syoungs on April 19, 2016, 07:02:57 PM
With 50g h4198, 350g hornady, I was able to hit a 300 yd gong on my 3rd or 4th attempt.
Post by: theleo on April 25, 2016, 09:30:02 AM
Post by: BigGoonTuna on April 25, 2016, 07:26:12 PM
Post by: dbur525 on April 30, 2016, 11:07:43 PM
I have some hard cast bullets 525 gr large meplate area these are custom cast and very hard hitting, they are equivalent to the pile driver bullets
As far as powder charge I would have to go thru my notes
I would sell you some of the cast bullets if you are interested.
You cannot buy a bullet like these except from a bullet maker in Idaho but there is a 6 to 8 month backlog after you place an order. Sorry I don't remember the bullet manufacturer but if you do an Internet search for pile driver cast bullet it will give you the manufacturer name.
Post by: syoungs on May 03, 2016, 09:49:01 PM