Post by: winslow on January 03, 2016, 08:07:13 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/01/03/armed-militia-bundy-brothers-take-over-federal-building-in-rural-oregon/
Post by: Eli346 on January 03, 2016, 09:38:28 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 03, 2016, 09:56:41 AM
Post by: csaaphill on January 04, 2016, 04:40:43 AM
This goes further than what's being reported, especially by liberal biased media. it's got agenda 21 written all over it and we stand by and 0 these people because of politics then shame on us.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 04, 2016, 05:04:22 AM
Post by: Special T on January 04, 2016, 10:36:23 AM
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Post by: csaaphill on January 04, 2016, 03:28:16 PM
These people are zeroes in every sense.WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They're doing the right thing and it's a fight that's been waiting to happen for a long time.
Funny how people will say we need to fight back but when people actually do they nit pick how they do it.
This would fill the bill of what our forefathers had said in the in the second a amendment.
Post by: bobcat on January 04, 2016, 03:32:36 PM
Post by: h20hunter on January 04, 2016, 03:32:48 PM
Domestic Terrorists and should be treated accordingly.
Post by: Tom Reichner on January 04, 2016, 03:35:16 PM
There has been so much said about the back story that the "front story" has taken a back seat. Yet the actual invasion and takeover of the wildlife refuge is a serious crime. And it is far from a victim-less crime.
The Malheur Wildlife Refuge is now closed to the public. The public is being deprived of a wonderful area that they should be able to enjoy. Birdwatchers cannot cruise the refuge roads in search of species. Photographers cannot hunt for opportunities with deer, rabbits, or winter birds. Volunteers cannot enter the refuge to continue work on their ongoing projects. Schoolteachers cannot take their pupils to the refuge for field trips. Those militia folks have stolen a valuable resource from the public! This is a travesty, yet for some bizarre reason it does not seem to be at the forefront of the news on this story.
Not only is the refuge currently being held hostage from the public, but the occupation could have lasting disastrous effects on recreational opportunities, educational opportunities, and ongoing scientific research projects. If the offenders shoot at or harass any deer, then the mule deer population will develop a greater fear of man, which would severely affect the opportunities that future visitors will have to both view and photograph the deer. The same can be said for the population of Cottontail Rabbits that live on the grounds around the Visitor Center and associated outbuildings. Knowing the type of people that many of these militia are likely to be, can we really guarantee that they will not do any hunting during their occupation? I seriously doubt that. They are armed and they have shown that they do not obey the law, so how can we know for sure that they will not hunt for (poach) or kill and wild game?
My hope is that these people are removed as soon as possible. The need for expediency is paramount, because every day that these people are there is one more day that the refuge is closed to the public to whom it belongs. It is really unacceptable that the public lose ANY man-days of birdwatching, photography, or any other kind of lawful recreation that they enjoy on these lands.
I also hope that extremely thorough investigations are conducted, and that the militia people are fully prosecuted for EVERY SINGLE CRIME, both large and small, that they have committed while in the refuge.
Post by: JLS on January 04, 2016, 03:38:29 PM
If they don't like it, go through the proper channels to get it changed. I don't think Oregon Territory was held at gunpoint and told to become a state or else. There were many very tangible benefits for the territories to be granted statehood.
Post by: jamesfromseattle on January 04, 2016, 03:45:19 PM
There is already a thread on this topic. I wrote my views, and reason for them, in that thread. I will re-post my thoughts here:
There has been so much said about the back story that the "front story" has taken a back seat. Yet the actual invasion and takeover of the wildlife refuge is a serious crime. And it is far from a victim-less crime.
The Malheur Wildlife Refuge is now closed to the public. The public is being deprived of a wonderful area that they should be able to enjoy. Birdwatchers cannot cruise the refuge roads in search of species. Photographers cannot hunt for opportunities with deer, rabbits, or winter birds. Volunteers cannot enter the refuge to continue work on their ongoing projects. Schoolteachers cannot take their pupils to the refuge for field trips. Those militia folks have stolen a valuable resource from the public! This is a travesty, yet for some bizarre reason it does not seem to be at the forefront of the news on this story.
Not only is the refuge currently being held hostage from the public, but the occupation could have lasting disastrous effects on recreational opportunities, educational opportunities, and ongoing scientific research projects. If the offenders shoot at or harass any deer, then the mule deer population will develop a greater fear of man, which would severely affect the opportunities that future visitors will have to both view and photograph the deer. The same can be said for the population of Cottontail Rabbits that live on the grounds around the Visitor Center and associated outbuildings. Knowing the type of people that many of these militia are likely to be, can we really guarantee that they will not do any hunting during their occupation? I seriously doubt that. They are armed and they have shown that they do not obey the law, so how can we know for sure that they will not hunt for (poach) or kill and wild game?
My hope is that these people are removed as soon as possible. The need for expediency is paramount, because every day that these people are there is one more day that the refuge is closed to the public to whom it belongs. It is really unacceptable that the public lose ANY man-days of birdwatching, photography, or any other kind of lawful recreation that they enjoy on these lands.
I also hope that extremely thorough investigations are conducted, and that the militia people are fully prosecuted for EVERY SINGLE CRIME, both large and small, that they have committed while in the refuge.
Using the threat of violence to take over publicly owned land...treason may be a good place to start.
Post by: Bob33 on January 04, 2016, 03:45:23 PM
The arson not only destroyed public land, it killed wildlife and put firefighters' lives in danger.
Post by: bobcat on January 04, 2016, 04:12:29 PM
Zeros.
Post by: csaaphill on January 04, 2016, 07:29:51 PM
What is the "fight" about, really? Ranchers thinking they have the right to use public land for free or at a very low cost? And not liking it when they are told no?the fight is about agenda 21 and the Greenies wanting their land and using what ever means necessary to get it. Its about Government coming in and fencing off the only water hole around, and then not recognizing their water rights that they had in the first place. haven't' you read the links I or others have posted about what's going on?
It's about an overreaching BLM starting their own backfires and then when their own fires got out of hand, blaming this and other family's in the area.
The list goes on and on about what this is all about.
it's about not doing what's right for the land and cattle in the area and allowing juniper trees which I think it is to grow uncontrolled, and take the water in the area which these people use for their cattle. It's bureaucracy, Green politics and the like out of control.
Post by: csaaphill on January 04, 2016, 07:40:41 PM
I must be missing something. Two individuals intentionally set fires on public land. One did it twice. They admitted to setting the fires. Their sentence was, without legal authority, reduced by a lower court. The US Attorneys Office appealed that ruling, and the federally mandated sentence was upheld.YEP you missed it.
The arson not only destroyed public land, it killed wildlife and put firefighters' lives in danger.
Post by: csaaphill on January 04, 2016, 07:46:00 PM
happens in every society so not surprised, and why I hold no hope in retaining any kind of semblance of a Bill of rights people aren't' willing to fight for it.
Goes against the very grain our forefathers taught us.
you only keep and retain liberty when you willing to fight for it.
Post by: bobcat on January 04, 2016, 07:56:22 PM
I don't know all the facts yet but it seems to me that the Hammonds could have easily avoided all this simply by not violating the law.
It does seem like they were charged with the wrong crime and I don't know the reason for that. And it does seem like 5 years in prison is excessive.
But think about this- what if somebody from a big city, say Portland, drove down to Malheur county and started fires on public land- twice? Would you expect that person to be prosecuted?
Post by: Dan-o on January 04, 2016, 07:57:51 PM
That pretty much sums it up.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 04, 2016, 08:06:09 PM
It might sound like tin foil time, but a few governments are pushing to phase out animal sources in diets to combat climate change. The US government revised daily recommended diet to lower meat and dairy, a small reduction in grains and increases in fruits and veggies. Farm animals are blamed for a significant production of greenhouse gases (CO2 and CH4). Some speculation is that wolf proliferation is to reduce cattle and game, and phasing out grazing is to reduce cattle. The price would rise and people would eat less meat and dairy. Eventually, however long it takes, the animal contribution to climate change would be negligible. :dunno:What is the "fight" about, really? Ranchers thinking they have the right to use public land for free or at a very low cost? And not liking it when they are told no?the fight is about agenda 21 and the Greenies wanting their land and using what ever means necessary to get it. Its about Government coming in and fencing off the only water hole around, and then not recognizing their water rights that they had in the first place. haven't' you read the links I or others have posted about what's going on?
It's about an overreaching BLM starting their own backfires and then when their own fires got out of hand, blaming this and other family's in the area.
The list goes on and on about what this is all about.
it's about not doing what's right for the land and cattle in the area and allowing juniper trees which I think it is to grow uncontrolled, and take the water in the area which these people use for their cattle. It's bureaucracy, Green politics and the like out of control.
Post by: sled on January 04, 2016, 08:08:44 PM
Post by: JLS on January 04, 2016, 08:32:15 PM
But think about this- what if somebody from a big city, say Portland, drove down to Malheur county and started fires on public land- twice? Would you expect that person to be prosecuted?
Agreed. How much sympathy would you find on this board if a bunch of Earth Firsters occupied the BLM office in Burns, and were armed when the took possession? And then threatened to use force in defense of themselves if anyone tried to forcibly remove them?
This really is two completely separate issues. The Hammonds' sentencing is completely independent of the moronic Bundy clan who is choosing to use this as a stage for their antics. I'll laugh when Ammon is a convicted felon doing time in a federal prison and can no longer carry a gun.
Post by: Curly on January 04, 2016, 08:38:27 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 04, 2016, 08:40:51 PM
Post by: wsmnut on January 04, 2016, 08:43:13 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 04, 2016, 08:43:57 PM
But what if the person from Portland that started fires did so from say a campfire out of control or a stove or a hot catalytic converter or maybe a firework? Definitely some accountability, but prison?
Twice?
Post by: JLS on January 04, 2016, 08:44:57 PM
But what if the person from Portland that started fires did so from say a campfire out of control or a stove or a hot catalytic converter or maybe a firework? Definitely some accountability, but prison?
Big difference between intentionally starting a fire and negligently starting a fire.
Post by: Curly on January 04, 2016, 08:46:43 PM
Post by: Curly on January 04, 2016, 08:48:03 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 04, 2016, 08:54:22 PM
Didn't they intentionally start on their own private property and it got out of control for the first, and have verbal BLM permission to start the second (the back burn) before it was out of hand?But what if the person from Portland that started fires did so from say a campfire out of control or a stove or a hot catalytic converter or maybe a firework? Definitely some accountability, but prison?
Big difference between intentionally starting a fire and negligently starting a fire.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on January 04, 2016, 08:55:12 PM
These people are zeroes in every sense.WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They're doing the right thing and it's a fight that's been waiting to happen for a long time.
Funny how people will say we need to fight back but when people actually do they nit pick how they do it.
This would fill the bill of what our forefathers had said in the in the second a amendment.
Again, I agree with csaaphill.........the corrupt government is too big and oversteps it's boundaries whenever it wants...
Post by: winslow on January 04, 2016, 09:00:09 PM
It's a mess, for sure, and I hope it ends peacefully and something good comes out of it all. Doesn't seem like it will change much for the Hammonds, at least not for the better.
If you want to read a crazy spin on the situation, check this out:
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/04/3735722/meet-the-child-abusing-arsonists-at-the-center-of-the-oregon-militia-standoff/
Post by: Skillet on January 04, 2016, 09:16:04 PM
Enter the Bundys. These folks have no stake in this fight, other than a chance to fulfill a self-described religious prophecy based in the LDS teachings that describe the victory of a Captain Moroni, who stood up to an oppressive king by peacefully assembling a massive resistance force. The Bundys are trying to co-opt the Hammond's plight by citing Mormon script.
Most interestingly - the Hammonds have disavowed the Bundys, as have the LDS church. Basically, the Bundy's are "off the reservation," and will hopefully realize their mistake 9sooner than later.
My answer to the OP'S question - Hammonds are folk hero's with a checkered past, and the Bundy's are total whack-job religious zealot zeros.
:twocents:
Post by: JLS on January 04, 2016, 09:23:04 PM
http://www.opb.org/news/article/burns-oregon-standoff-militia/ (http://www.opb.org/news/article/burns-oregon-standoff-militia/)
Hard to believe how arrogant Clive Bundy is. He is beyond stupid.
Post by: Skillet on January 04, 2016, 09:36:55 PM
With the way Cliven Bundy has been quoted regarding the Hammond situation, if blood is shed he will be a likely candidate for "Inciting a Riot" charges, IMHO. I think the Feds have probably had enough of his antics, and are probably regretting standing down earlier. He's been emboldened and is gambling others' lives in the name of The Book of Mormon as a result.
Post by: Tom Reichner on January 04, 2016, 10:03:00 PM
You are so very right. This story is not about the Hammond's deeds, trial, and sentencing. This story is about the militia group invading the Visitor Center on a federal wildlife refuge, which has caused the refuge to be closed to all visitors.
This really is two completely separate issues. The Hammonds' sentencing is completely independent of the moronic Bundy clan who is choosing to use this as a stage for their antics. I'll laugh when Ammon is a convicted felon doing time in a federal prison and can no longer carry a gun.
Post by: emac on January 04, 2016, 10:16:49 PM
I wouldn't do it, but atleast they aren't burning down buildings, and looting like the black lives matter group is.But black lives do matter:D
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Post by: Stein on January 04, 2016, 10:24:52 PM
It wasn't right when the black lives group destroyed property and it isn't right when Bundy did it.
If the ranchers have any sense, they will distance themselves from the Bundy thugs asap.
If you think the mandatory sentence is too high, call your congressman and have it changed.
Freedom and anarchy are different.
Post by: Dan-o on January 04, 2016, 10:50:55 PM
These guys have no excuse for taking the refuge. NONE..... except possibly in Csaaphil's conspiracy-theory-ridden mind. Which, by the way, is extremely ironic given how he'd react if someone trampled his rights the way these refuge-grabbers are doing.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 04, 2016, 11:13:23 PM
:yeah:It kind of reminds me of the 594 protest in Olympia, the bulk of the protest outside on the steps was viewed in a good light, but a few others wanted a little more exposure and went into the legislature armed with gas masks and trenchcoats.
These guys have no excuse for taking the refuge. NONE..... except possibly in Csaaphil's conspiracy-theory-ridden mind. Which, by the way, is extremely ironic given how he'd react if someone trampled his rights the way these refuge-grabbers are doing.
Post by: Curly on January 05, 2016, 02:29:54 PM
Post by: csaaphill on January 09, 2016, 12:38:27 PM
100% facts of what were saying.
Post by: Tom Reichner on January 12, 2016, 01:25:18 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/opinion/bird-watching-patriotism-and-the-oregon-standoff.html?_r=1
Let's hope that no one moves this topic to a place where it will only be seen by a few people - these types of topics are exactly the ones that need to be featured right up front on the main board of Hunting-washington, so that they can be seen and read by the greatest number of forum users.
Post by: csaaphill on January 12, 2016, 09:36:29 PM
A recent piece on this issue by the New York Times:UHHH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! What people are forgetting if they've read the articles posted on here is that for years it was common practice with the BLM and private ranchers to do was set these fires. 1. to either control evasive species like the Juniper tress, and such, which does in fact help enhance the land rather than hurt it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/opinion/bird-watching-patriotism-and-the-oregon-standoff.html?_r=1
Let's hope that no one moves this topic to a place where it will only be seen by a few people - these types of topics are exactly the ones that need to be featured right up front on the main board of Hunting-washington, so that they can be seen and read by the greatest number of forum users.
2. Obamas Executive orders on this last year along with new Leadership which BTW was under Harry Reid (Which I highly suspect is the real reason for the BLM's stance on this.) have been strong-arming the local Ranchers down there for years to sell.
Also what people fail to see is that what was a common practice has been ended because of the people like anti hunters anti gunners, anti grazers and such. Basically the Greenies are the ones who've had their hand in getting these policy's changed. Obamas EO. agenda 21, a new BLM director who worked under Harry Reid is what's causing all this not some lawless bunch of Ranchers just doing what they want.
This is too about those of us who want individual rights and not have to be part of a collective. UN collective that is.
Post by: Curly on January 13, 2016, 01:49:15 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 13, 2016, 02:10:25 PM
Post by: ghosthunter on January 13, 2016, 03:48:56 PM
Post by: Special T on January 13, 2016, 08:35:11 PM
Post by: JJB11B on January 13, 2016, 08:39:50 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/armed-oregon-occupiers-to-reveal-departure-plans/ar-CCuaSQ?li=BBnb7Kzthat thing is dripping with liberal BS......
Post by: bobcat on January 13, 2016, 09:58:05 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F16%2F01%2F13%2F108a3e7ad13d8db914a425dc274e77a3.jpg&hash=69b4878f09dcbce72d3529aee32b69bf096eef8e)
Post by: ohopluke on January 21, 2016, 04:21:48 PM
Post by: csaaphill on January 21, 2016, 10:26:04 PM