Post by: Wetwoodshunter on January 11, 2016, 11:53:19 AM
I was invited by a friend who lives in Montana to go elk hunting with him this year, he told me that the majority of his free time will be during rifle season.
I have a Leupold Vx-2 3x9 50mm obj. That is on a completely custom 7mm rem mag. rem 700 rifle that I am going to take with me to Montana this year, if I draw an "Combo A" tag. I am hoping to get this gun set up so that I can take shots at elk comfortably at 600 yards.
Anyone out there using a CDS dial on their gun? I was wondering how easy, or is it necessary to switch dials if the elevation changes a ton. Where I normally hunt with a rifle I am at sea level but when I go to Montana I think that the elevation is going to be closer to 4,000-5,000 ft. What would be the best way for me to set the scope I already have up?
My current load is a 160gr. sierra game king SBT at 2855 fps, sea level. I'm also working up a load right now with Nosler LR Accubonds, hoping to get the accuracy that I can get out of the game kings, but have not gotten them to group as well.
Post by: jackelope on January 11, 2016, 11:58:06 AM
So,
I was invited by a friend who lives in Montana to go elk hunting with him this year, he told me that the majority of his free time will be during rifle season.
I have a Leupold Vx-2 3x9 50mm obj. That is on a completely custom 7mm rem mag. rem 700 rifle that I am going to take with me to Montana this year, if I draw an "Combo A" tag. I am hoping to get this gun set up so that I can take shots at elk comfortably at 600 yards.
Anyone out there using a CDS dial on their gun? I was wondering how easy, or is it necessary to switch dials if the elevation changes a ton. Where I normally hunt with a rifle I am at sea level but when I go to Montana I think that the elevation is going to be closer to 4,000-5,000 ft. What would be the best way for me to set the scope I already have up?
My current load is a 160gr. sierra game king SBT at 2855 fps, sea level. I'm also working up a load right now with Nosler LR Accubonds, hoping to get the accuracy that I can get out of the game kings, but have not gotten them to group as well.
Amateur hour here but I think I have this pretty well figured out.
The CDS dials a specific range. That will change at elevation.
The M1 turret is an option where I'm pretty sure you won't have to change the turrets, you dial the drop...so using your ballistic software, you can dial the drop ... IE a bullet drops 10" at sea level but drops 15" at 5k' so just dial for the 15" drop rather than 10". You just have to know the differences in trajectory at different elevation.
Post by: jackelope on January 11, 2016, 12:09:12 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160111/5ab9a51f2cd97de4de73d909a645e7be.jpg)
5000'
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160111/aaaa61982cefac6180c0d4a6b2768ad0.jpg)
Post by: bobcat on January 11, 2016, 12:33:21 PM
Post by: ipkus on January 11, 2016, 02:01:26 PM
I took the ballistics for my gun (300 WM) and and made a spreadsheet showing differences in temperature from 20 to 50 F and elevation from 2,500 to 10,000 ft.
From that data I had a CDS made using 50 F and 5,000 ft. At 500 yds. it is only off 2" one extreme or the other. At 600 yds. it's double that, and one should keep that in mind if shooting that far on with extreme variables.
Post by: Stein on January 11, 2016, 02:08:39 PM
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on January 11, 2016, 03:26:55 PM
Post by: kentrek on January 11, 2016, 03:56:42 PM
Going by the data that Jackelope posted, at 500 yards there's only 2 inches difference in drop between the 500 feet in elevation versus the 5,000 feet. At 600 yards only 3 1/2 inches. Since you're elk hunting, a couple inches isn't that significant. You might be just fine with the dial you already have.
3 inches of error doesn't seem like much but for me it's too much
This will be different for every person but look at it this way....I've watched my heart racing bounce cross hairs up to 6 inches before on animals...add that error to the 3 inch elevation error and now we're at 9 inches of error...now that could work in your favor to give you an end result of only 3 inches of error...now that's just one way vertical..with only an elevation & hold error...add the other factors such as the wind or how accurate your rifle is and it's a missed animal or worse a wounded one
Long winded but my point is that in a miss all the error adds up one factor at a time
Post by: kentrek on January 11, 2016, 04:04:09 PM
And most definitely take extra bullets and practice while on your hunting trip...confidence is everything
Post by: jackelope on January 11, 2016, 04:43:10 PM
Going by the data that Jackelope posted, at 500 yards there's only 2 inches difference in drop between the 500 feet in elevation versus the 5,000 feet. At 600 yards only 3 1/2 inches. Since you're elk hunting, a couple inches isn't that significant. You might be just fine with the dial you already have.
3 inches of error doesn't seem like much but for me it's too much
This will be different for every person but look at it this way....I've watched my heart racing bounce cross hairs up to 6 inches before on animals...add that error to the 3 inch elevation error and now we're at 9 inches of error...now that could work in your favor to give you an end result of only 3 inches of error...now that's just one way vertical..with only an elevation & hold error...add the other factors such as the wind or how accurate your rifle is and it's a missed animal or worse a wounded one
Long winded but my point is that in a miss all the error adds up one factor at a time
Based on your logic, you're shooting rifles that hold sub 1/2" groups?
Post by: jackelope on January 11, 2016, 04:45:04 PM
My advice is keep your cap totally free of obligations, use a specific printed chart for stuff in the 400 yard range but use your phone for the longer stuff...if you don't have time to use a shooting application then you probably shouldn't be shooting it any how
And most definitely take extra bullets and practice while on your hunting trip...confidence is everything
Do these app's work where there is no internet service?
Post by: Stein on January 11, 2016, 05:17:28 PM
My advice is keep your cap totally free of obligations, use a specific printed chart for stuff in the 400 yard range but use your phone for the longer stuff...if you don't have time to use a shooting application then you probably shouldn't be shooting it any how
And most definitely take extra bullets and practice while on your hunting trip...confidence is everything
Do these app's work where there is no internet service?
Yes, although you won't get real time met data.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: kentrek on January 11, 2016, 05:20:41 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 11, 2016, 06:28:31 PM
I get 1 moa difference. Now add temp changes to that and it could grow or shrink.
Warmer air has less drop than colder air, thinner (higher elevations and less pressure) has less drop than more dense air.
I use moa dials on my rifles, all but one that I had a turret built and lost the moa dial.
I much prefer using pressure instead of elevation and a moa dial.
:twocents:
Post by: jasnt on January 11, 2016, 07:31:55 PM
I much prefer using pressure instead of elevation and a moa dial.
:twocents:"
:yeah:
Post by: duck1187 on January 11, 2016, 09:07:38 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 11, 2016, 09:18:39 PM
What app are you usingMine is "shooter"
Post by: M_ray on January 11, 2016, 09:32:40 PM
I range my gun here at pretty much sea level and hunt at about 4,500. I split the difference and printed a dial for about 2,500' that I use everywhere. As others noted, you are talking about an inch or two max.
Why not just order your CDS for 2500 or 3000 knowing it's going to be +1or2 to - 1or2 depending on where you are at? :dunno:
Post by: ipkus on January 11, 2016, 09:39:54 PM
3 inches of error doesn't seem like much but for me it's too much
This will be different for every person but look at it this way....I've watched my heart racing bounce cross hairs up to 6 inches before on animals...add that error to the 3 inch elevation error and now we're at 9 inches of error...now that could work in your favor to give you an end result of only 3 inches of error...now that's just one way vertical..with only an elevation & hold error...add the other factors such as the wind or how accurate your rifle is and it's a missed animal or worse a wounded one
Long winded but my point is that in a miss all the error adds up one factor at a time
If you are worried about 3 inch variation getting added to 6 inches of bouncing from your heart racing...you are worried about the wrong variable!
Post by: M_ray on January 11, 2016, 09:45:06 PM
Going by the data that Jackelope posted, at 500 yards there's only 2 inches difference in drop between the 500 feet in elevation versus the 5,000 feet. At 600 yards only 3 1/2 inches. Since you're elk hunting, a couple inches isn't that significant. You might be just fine with the dial you already have.
3 inches of error doesn't seem like much but for me it's too much
This will be different for every person but look at it this way....I've watched my heart racing bounce cross hairs up to 6 inches before on animals...add that error to the 3 inch elevation error and now we're at 9 inches of error...now that could work in your favor to give you an end result of only 3 inches of error...now that's just one way vertical..with only an elevation & hold error...add the other factors such as the wind or how accurate your rifle is and it's a missed animal or worse a wounded one
Long winded but my point is that in a miss all the error adds up one factor at a time
Unless you are trying to put it's eye out ... an Elk that has 28" from the top of it's back to it's belly 2-3" isnt a big deal ... :dunno:
Post by: Bob33 on January 11, 2016, 09:53:12 PM
The elk won't know the difference.
Post by: kentrek on January 11, 2016, 09:57:21 PM
Post by: M_ray on January 12, 2016, 02:11:00 AM
Post by: jasnt on January 12, 2016, 07:22:56 AM
Shot placement is everything and I'd like it to hit right where I want it not about where I want it. Just how I do it. With the kestrel and moa dial I'm good where ever I wanna hunt, any elevation or temp range. I figure wind is the worst enemy anyway in long distance shooting so I like having the kestrel to help eliminate as many variables as possible.
Post by: Piscatory_5 on January 12, 2016, 07:30:59 AM
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Post by: sagewalker on January 12, 2016, 08:13:39 AM
Just get closer.
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I have been waiting for someone to say this, Thank you! :tup:
Post by: Magnum_Willys on January 12, 2016, 08:16:04 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 12, 2016, 08:48:17 AM
Does your range finder already compensate? Ie leica 1600?The Leica doesn't compensate anything. It gives range and atmospheric conditions.
It can give a correction (out to 500 yards) if you choose from one of the 12 curves that are programmed into the unit.
It will give the relevant info; range, angle, pressure, and temp that you can input into your calculator to generate a solution.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on January 12, 2016, 09:20:23 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 12, 2016, 09:31:44 AM
The 1600b calculates a "true ballastic range" to 880 yards adjusted for baro, temp and angle for one of the trajectory curves you select.I was thinking it limited the solutions for the preloaded curves to 500. My mistake. That is a good tool if one of the curves fits your actual trajectory.
I still prefer to use my calculator. Especially outside 500 yards.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 12, 2016, 09:35:08 AM
None of the curves match my weapon even remotely close enough to shoot past 400 yards. Like others have said, MOA is not rocket science. Get a tool to read Barometric pressure and know about what the temp is and dial for the shot. Lots of variables go into a longer shot.The 1600b calculates a "true ballastic range" to 880 yards adjusted for baro, temp and angle for one of the trajectory curves you select.I was thinking it limited the solutions for the preloaded curves to 500. My mistake. That is a good tool if one of the curves fits your actual trajectory.
I still prefer to use my calculator. Especially outside 500 yards.
Post by: WoodlandShooter on January 12, 2016, 09:47:22 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 12, 2016, 10:06:16 AM
all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:I assume it's because he is asking about cds dials (drop) :dunno:
Like any of these tools, whether it's dialing MOA, using a BDC reticle, a cds dial, or doping wind, you gotta get out and do it, because it's never quite as simple as it sounds. :twocents:
Post by: Bob33 on January 12, 2016, 10:17:42 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 12, 2016, 10:20:23 AM
Post by: The scout on January 12, 2016, 10:22:21 AM
Post by: jackelope on January 12, 2016, 11:30:53 AM
all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
Post by: WoodlandShooter on January 12, 2016, 01:12:27 PM
all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
so, does the reticle allow for holds??
Post by: jackelope on January 12, 2016, 01:18:22 PM
all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
so, does the reticle allow for holds??
I suppose that would depend on the reticle, no?
Post by: WoodlandShooter on January 12, 2016, 01:21:54 PM
Post by: jasnt on January 12, 2016, 04:20:28 PM
i dial for wind :dunno:all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
Post by: jackelope on January 12, 2016, 04:21:16 PM
i dial for wind :dunno:all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
With CDS dials?
Post by: kentrek on January 12, 2016, 04:25:04 PM
i dial for wind :dunno:all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
With CDS dials?
You can...you can get a windage cap for a specific wind speed..but that's about like getting elevation caps in my opinion
Post by: Bob33 on January 12, 2016, 04:35:26 PM
Ummm...how does that work? The amount of MOA adjustment necessary for a 10 MPH wind depends on the distance. Windage caps can't possibly be calibrated solely to wind speed and work correctly at different distances.i dial for wind :dunno:all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
With CDS dials?
You can...you can get a windage cap for a specific wind speed..but that's about like getting elevation caps in my opinion
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 12, 2016, 04:40:51 PM
One wind speed set to the range of distances--a 10 mph cross for 100, 200, 300, 400.... a different cap for 20 mph cross at 100, 200.....Ummm...how does that work? The amount of MOA adjustment necessary for a 10 MPH wind depends on the distance. Windage caps can't possibly be calibrated solely to wind speed and work correctly at different distances.i dial for wind :dunno:all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
With CDS dials?
You can...you can get a windage cap for a specific wind speed..but that's about like getting elevation caps in my opinion
Post by: Bob33 on January 12, 2016, 04:43:06 PM
Carry multiple caps for different wind speeds? What if the wind is 12 MPH?One wind speed set to the range of distances--a 10 mph cross for 100, 200, 300, 400.... a different cap for 20 mph cross at 100, 200.....Ummm...how does that work? The amount of MOA adjustment necessary for a 10 MPH wind depends on the distance. Windage caps can't possibly be calibrated solely to wind speed and work correctly at different distances.i dial for wind :dunno:all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
With CDS dials?
You can...you can get a windage cap for a specific wind speed..but that's about like getting elevation caps in my opinion
Post by: jackelope on January 12, 2016, 04:49:47 PM
Carry multiple caps for different wind speeds? What if the wind is 12 MPH?One wind speed set to the range of distances--a 10 mph cross for 100, 200, 300, 400.... a different cap for 20 mph cross at 100, 200.....Ummm...how does that work? The amount of MOA adjustment necessary for a 10 MPH wind depends on the distance. Windage caps can't possibly be calibrated solely to wind speed and work correctly at different distances.i dial for wind :dunno:all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
With CDS dials?
You can...you can get a windage cap for a specific wind speed..but that's about like getting elevation caps in my opinion
What if it's 16mph!!??
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 12, 2016, 04:51:25 PM
Post by: kentrek on January 12, 2016, 04:51:52 PM
Carry multiple caps for different wind speeds? What if the wind is 12 MPH?One wind speed set to the range of distances--a 10 mph cross for 100, 200, 300, 400.... a different cap for 20 mph cross at 100, 200.....Ummm...how does that work? The amount of MOA adjustment necessary for a 10 MPH wind depends on the distance. Windage caps can't possibly be calibrated solely to wind speed and work correctly at different distances.i dial for wind :dunno:all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
With CDS dials?
You can...you can get a windage cap for a specific wind speed..but that's about like getting elevation caps in my opinion
Exactly why it's kind of silly, but leupold advertises it i believe...or they used to
Post by: bobcat on January 12, 2016, 05:01:34 PM
Post by: jasnt on January 12, 2016, 05:14:33 PM
Don't most people dial for the distance and hold for the wind?depends on the wind. If wind is pretty consistent I dial for wind. If wind is gusty or off and on I use Kentucky windage. Another reason I prefer the kestrel to cds dials, it will read the wind....at least at my location.
Post by: coachcw on January 12, 2016, 05:17:23 PM
Post by: The scout on January 12, 2016, 05:22:43 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 12, 2016, 05:23:26 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 12, 2016, 05:33:06 PM
Well, I guess if you are carrying a rangefinder, level, barometer, thermometer, anemometer, calculating cosines, coriolis, etc; would it really be that big a deal to carry a set of caps and swap that out?Carry multiple caps for different wind speeds? What if the wind is 12 MPH?One wind speed set to the range of distances--a 10 mph cross for 100, 200, 300, 400.... a different cap for 20 mph cross at 100, 200.....Ummm...how does that work? The amount of MOA adjustment necessary for a 10 MPH wind depends on the distance. Windage caps can't possibly be calibrated solely to wind speed and work correctly at different distances.i dial for wind :dunno:all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
With CDS dials?
You can...you can get a windage cap for a specific wind speed..but that's about like getting elevation caps in my opinion
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 12, 2016, 06:21:24 PM
A kestrel and a rangefinder along with my phone is plenty and has all the required functions. Or a Leica 1600 and a phone. It's really not that difficult. And the moa dial remains constant so no need for more dials. Even if you were to switch ammoWell, I guess if you are carrying a rangefinder, level, barometer, thermometer, anemometer, calculating cosines, coriolis, etc; would it really be that big a deal to carry a set of caps and swap that out?Carry multiple caps for different wind speeds? What if the wind is 12 MPH?One wind speed set to the range of distances--a 10 mph cross for 100, 200, 300, 400.... a different cap for 20 mph cross at 100, 200.....Ummm...how does that work? The amount of MOA adjustment necessary for a 10 MPH wind depends on the distance. Windage caps can't possibly be calibrated solely to wind speed and work correctly at different distances.i dial for wind :dunno:all this discussion about drop, but no one has discussed wind....interesting!!! :dunno:
The question that was asked was related to CDS dials. Pretty sure there's no dialing for wind.
With CDS dials?
You can...you can get a windage cap for a specific wind speed..but that's about like getting elevation caps in my opinion
Post by: M_ray on January 13, 2016, 12:44:01 PM
Well, I guess if you are carrying a rangefinder, level, barometer, thermometer, anemometer, calculating cosines, coriolis, etc; would it really be that big a deal to carry a set of caps and swap that out?
Don't forget your Dowsing branch! :chuckle:
Post by: jay.sharkbait on January 13, 2016, 12:45:22 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 13, 2016, 12:48:09 PM
Dang it. I thought I put those caps in with the other ranging stuff....
Well, I guess if you are carrying a rangefinder, level, barometer, thermometer, anemometer, calculating cosines, coriolis, etc; would it really be that big a deal to carry a set of caps and swap that out?
Don't forget your Dowsing branch! :chuckle:
Post by: WoodlandShooter on January 13, 2016, 01:34:05 PM
HORUS reticle make all this a moot point.
^^^this^^^
Post by: jackelope on January 13, 2016, 01:34:28 PM
Dang it. I thought I put those caps in with the other ranging stuff....
Well, I guess if you are carrying a rangefinder, level, barometer, thermometer, anemometer, calculating cosines, coriolis, etc; would it really be that big a deal to carry a set of caps and swap that out?
Don't forget your Dowsing branch! :chuckle:
:chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on January 13, 2016, 01:35:19 PM
HORUS reticle make all this a moot point.
I had to google that. Is that a bad thing?
It appears to be way over my pay grade.
Post by: kentrek on January 13, 2016, 01:42:47 PM
HORUS reticle make all this a moot point.
I had to google that. Is that a bad thing?
It appears to be way over my pay grade.
Mine as well....way too busy for my taste..although I'm sure it's very effective...give me some windage marks and that's it...
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 13, 2016, 01:55:39 PM
Post by: M_ray on January 13, 2016, 02:01:55 PM
HORUS reticle make all this a moot point.
I had to google that. Is that a bad thing?
It appears to be way over my pay grade.
Mine as well....way too busy for my taste..although I'm sure it's very effective...give me some windage marks and that's it...
Yeah way too much going on for my liking .... :twocents: I'll stick with CDS and hold for wind.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on January 13, 2016, 02:04:21 PM
Post by: kentrek on January 13, 2016, 02:14:48 PM
You guys are right.... They really suck. :rolleyes:
We had one on a 17 hmr once...that was fun :chuckle:
Do you hunt with one ?
Post by: kentrek on January 13, 2016, 02:21:33 PM
All those fancy lines and numbers! Makes me so confoozed :o
Just think...you could finally score non typicals down to the 1/8 inch in the field :chuckle:
Post by: coachcw on January 13, 2016, 02:31:10 PM
Post by: jay.sharkbait on January 13, 2016, 02:40:20 PM
You guys are right.... They really suck. :rolleyes:
We had one on a 17 hmr once...that was fun :chuckle:
Do you hunt with one ?
I do.
They are fantastic for multiple targets at unknown distance.
It doesn't take long before the grid system seems to disappear. I really don't notice it anymore.
Post by: kentrek on January 13, 2016, 02:43:43 PM
You guys are right.... They really suck. :rolleyes:
We had one on a 17 hmr once...that was fun :chuckle:
Do you hunt with one ?
I do.
They are fantastic for multiple targets at unknown distance.
It doesn't take long before the grid system seems to disappear. I really don't notice it anymore.
Id think for sage rats this would be awesome...but big game idk if it's worth it :dunno: I imagine il just have to pull the trigger on one some day
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on January 13, 2016, 02:57:10 PM
Post by: 2MANY on January 13, 2016, 03:04:27 PM
Post by: HntnFsh on January 13, 2016, 04:14:53 PM
How could you ever miss with all them there cross hairs?
Awesome! :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on January 13, 2016, 05:52:28 PM
You guys are right.... They really suck. :rolleyes:
Oh I don't think they suck. I just think it would take me a lifetime to figure out how to work it.
Post by: M_ray on January 13, 2016, 06:37:09 PM
You guys are right.... They really suck. :rolleyes:
I never said they suck ... I said there's too much going on for me, just a personal preference. I don't know where you even get that anyone has given the impression they think they suck :dunno:
Post by: Piscatory_5 on January 14, 2016, 06:19:55 PM
Well, I guess if you are carrying a rangefinder, level, barometer, thermometer, anemometer, calculating cosines, coriolis, etc; would it really be that big a deal to carry a set of caps and swap that out?
Don't forget your Dowsing branch! :chuckle:
Indeed, by the time you figure all this out you'll definitely be thirsty or the animal will have walked off. ;)
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