Post by: JayBird02 on January 12, 2016, 07:54:50 PM
Post by: jetjockey on January 13, 2016, 06:46:54 AM
I agree with offering more walking trials. The problem is that typically, most people who attend trials are already in the game, and already have horses. Often times, walking trials don't get the numbers of entry's that trials where horses are permitted do. It's kind of a catch 22. With that said, if you see a trial you want to run in, contact the FT secretary and discuss the options with them. Out here in the SE, people are typically very open to letting a newbie borrow a horse, and often times trials have wranglers to rent horses. Trialing needs new people, don't be afraid to walk a trial where horses are permitted. With that said, its going to be tough to compete in an All Age trial when walking, but Gun Dog trials have people who place while walking all the time.
Post by: AspenBud on January 13, 2016, 06:57:41 AM
But grounds and events have to be on both sides of the mountains.
Post by: jetjockey on January 13, 2016, 07:11:46 AM
Post by: AspenBud on January 13, 2016, 07:18:28 AM
The problem is the PNW is lab country. There just isn't the numbers of pointing dog people in the PNW as there is elsewhere, and WA state doesn't support upland hunting like other states do. IMO those two things keep the PNW from creating a huge draw for trials. Down here in GA, trialing is huge, but the state, land owners, trusts, and the community all support it. That doesn't happen in the PNW.
Everywhere is lab country. The problem is this is big game country.
But I've seen enough pointing dog owners to think the option would be viable in Washington, Oregon, and Idaho.
(RGS trials have stakes for flushers and pointers)
Post by: jetjockey on January 13, 2016, 07:29:10 AM
The problem is the PNW is lab country. There just isn't the numbers of pointing dog people in the PNW as there is elsewhere, and WA state doesn't support upland hunting like other states do. IMO those two things keep the PNW from creating a huge draw for trials. Down here in GA, trialing is huge, but the state, land owners, trusts, and the community all support it. That doesn't happen in the PNW.
Not down here it's not. You rarely see labs that hunt down here. But I've seen copies of American Field sitting on several dashboards at the grocery store. You can't say that about the PNW.
Everywhere is lab country. The problem is this is big game country.
But I've seen enough pointing dog owners to think the option would be viable in Washington, Oregon, and Idaho.
(RGS trials have stakes for flushers and pointers)
Post by: AspenBud on January 13, 2016, 08:48:16 AM
Not down here it's not. You rarely see labs that hunt down here. But I've seen copies of American Field sitting on several dashboards at the grocery store. You can't say that about the PNW.
Down where you are I think it's more common to see labs sitting on the cart waiting to do the retrieve after the pointers find the birds. But it's not pointers that are duck hunting down there.
In five years in the Midwest I never saw an issue of American Field at the grocery store, on someone's dash, or the doctor's office. Even RGS magazines were rare. But Cover Dog exists nonetheless. I'm beginning to think it's more a matter of no one out here ever really thought to try and start it up.
Post by: AspenBud on January 13, 2016, 08:48:55 AM
So I'm looking at running my male Brittany in some field trials this spring but I don't see many walking trials in the PNW. Can you run a horseback trial on foot? And why don't they offer more walking trials? I could be wrong but you would think more people would be willing to be involved with AKC trials if they offered more walking trials.
I would look into NSTRA if I were you.
Post by: JayBird02 on January 13, 2016, 09:06:45 AM
I have looked into NASTRA and it's something that I still might do I'm just worried about the size of the bird field at a NASTRA event.
I've been to hunt test, and pointing dog events around WA and one thing I've noticed and I'm not trying to be rude but you don't see many younger people at these events. Traveling to a trial and entry fees cost enough but adding in a horse to care for adds up pretty quick. I think if they offered more Walking Trials you would see more of an interest at lease here in Eastern Washington.
Post by: JayBird02 on January 13, 2016, 09:10:16 AM
Post by: jetjockey on January 13, 2016, 10:05:38 AM
Not down here it's not. You rarely see labs that hunt down here. But I've seen copies of American Field sitting on several dashboards at the grocery store. You can't say that about the PNW.
Down where you are I think it's more common to see labs sitting on the cart waiting to do the retrieve after the pointers find the birds. But it's not pointers that are duck hunting down there.
In five years in the Midwest I never saw an issue of American Field at the grocery store, on someone's dash, or the doctor's office. Even RGS magazines were rare. But Cover Dog exists nonetheless. I'm beginning to think it's more a matter of no one out here ever really thought to try and start it up.
GSP's and GWP's are very popular duck dogs down here. Heck, when I was in South Africa in June, the PH's stated they use their pointers in the duck blinds on a lot of occasions. But, it's obviously much warmer in SA and down here in the South. I think that's why we don't see many labs down here. Your much more likely to see a Cocker or Boykin in the cart than you are seeing a lab as well. Some of the cover they need to flush the birds from is ridiculously thick. Labs have a hard time getting through. But, back to the original question, there's a lot of people who walk in puppy, derby, and gun dog trials that are open to horses. Hell, I ran my derby in Iowa in September against a guy on foot. The guy was a machine, and his dog did a nice job. It just needs to be advertised more often that most stakes are walking stakes that are open to horses. In the Brit world, our Amateur Gun Dog Nationals is a walking National with horses not permitted. They have done that to try and open up trialing to more people.
Post by: JayBird02 on January 13, 2016, 11:46:29 AM
Post by: AspenBud on January 13, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
I have looked into NASTRA and it's something that I still might do I'm just worried about the size of the bird field at a NASTRA event.
I've been to hunt test, and pointing dog events around WA and one thing I've noticed and I'm not trying to be rude but you don't see many younger people at these events. Traveling to a trial and entry fees cost enough but adding in a horse to care for adds up pretty quick. I think if they offered more Walking Trials you would see more of an interest at lease here in Eastern Washington.
Are you worried the field will be too small at NSTRA events? If so I know of at least one gentleman who runs Pointers in that venue and his latest dog is straight out of All Age stock. If your dog handles, and retrieves, it can play in NSTRA. No horse needed.
I agree with your observation about walking trials. That's why I brought up cover dog, as those are all walking trials and God knows we have the habitat for it practically right out our back doors in the Northwest. It would also provide people another opportunity to show what their dogs can do on wild birds.
Post by: AspenBud on January 13, 2016, 11:53:59 AM
Not down here it's not. You rarely see labs that hunt down here. But I've seen copies of American Field sitting on several dashboards at the grocery store. You can't say that about the PNW.
Down where you are I think it's more common to see labs sitting on the cart waiting to do the retrieve after the pointers find the birds. But it's not pointers that are duck hunting down there.
In five years in the Midwest I never saw an issue of American Field at the grocery store, on someone's dash, or the doctor's office. Even RGS magazines were rare. But Cover Dog exists nonetheless. I'm beginning to think it's more a matter of no one out here ever really thought to try and start it up.
Heck, when I was in South Africa in June, the PH's stated they use their pointers in the duck blinds on a lot of occasions. But, it's obviously much warmer in SA and down here in the South.
Those Pointers are also not like what we breed here.
Post by: constructeur on January 13, 2016, 04:16:11 PM
You may find some luck by searching each of the breed clubs in the state, gsp club or wa, etc. that kind of stuff.
Post by: JayBird02 on January 13, 2016, 04:56:54 PM
I think in general the AKC could do a better job of marketing their events.I have done all of that and found a bunch of trials but not many walking trials. Did find a bunch of Hunt Test but I really would like to run a trial this spring.
You may find some luck by searching each of the breed clubs in the state, gsp club or wa, etc. that kind of stuff.
Post by: wildweeds on January 15, 2016, 05:28:04 PM
I know I could send my dog and pay to have someone like RJ campaign him but I'm not looking to spend that kind of money and honestly I take pride in knowing that I trained my dog.
Post by: JayBird02 on January 16, 2016, 05:13:28 PM
Missed that potential opportunity, R.J doesn't handle trial dogs anymore. Retired from that aspect. Just trains now.Yeah I know but I might try to set up a couple of one on one trainings with him this spring once hunting season ends.I know I could send my dog and pay to have someone like RJ campaign him but I'm not looking to spend that kind of money and honestly I take pride in knowing that I trained my dog.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 18, 2016, 03:36:39 PM
There is a GSP Yahoo group which is pretty active. nwfieldtrialyahoo or something like that. I think they had two walking trials at my house last year.
Post by: wildweeds on January 18, 2016, 08:10:22 PM
Post by: jetjockey on January 20, 2016, 05:52:08 AM
Post by: jetjockey on January 20, 2016, 05:53:12 AM
Post by: JayBird02 on January 21, 2016, 05:14:13 PM
Post by: jetjockey on January 21, 2016, 06:20:53 PM
Post by: JayBird02 on January 21, 2016, 09:00:43 PM
Post by: AspenBud on January 22, 2016, 09:08:45 AM
That's good to hear that people are so helpful. I know my first experience with an AKC event wasn't so great. I feel like I was treated like a second class citizen because I wasn't affiliated with one of the big trainers. I showed up with my dog and he ran well but I felt like an outcast. Second event I ran was better but I feel like the only reason why was because the judges knew the breeder of my dog. I think I'm going to run my dog this spring at a horseback trial but I'll end up walking it. The trial is being run in Ritzville this spring. Thanks for your input
There are two types of bird dog owners, those who train their own dogs and those who spend literally thousands having a trainer work and train their dog. There are pluses and minuses to both, but I think what you were seeing there were people who knew each other via a given trainer and as such you saw how clickish those circles can become. You can see this rise to the top on forums like this sometimes (this one not so much however) and it can often become a type written blood bath with competing training philosophies and even breed arguments if two trainers also breed two different types of dog. Those arguments usually erupt between people who buy trainers' services, not the trainers (at least not the more professional ones).
My suggestion would be to keep running your dog. Be friendly and accept any criticism the judges might have. The people worth talking to will eventually open up. Particularly if you show you're not a poor loser or the type that wants to put a few ounces of lead in the dog's head for not putting in a champion performance.
And if that doesn't work, look at other venues. While it doesn't have the same presence out here as east of the Mississippi, American Field does have sanctioned events out this way and there is still the NSTRA.
Having said that, I do think there really needs to be some more options for amateurs out here. Most of us don't own (and never want to) a horse or hunt a dog while riding on one.
Post by: birddogdad on January 22, 2016, 09:21:25 AM
Post by: AspenBud on January 22, 2016, 10:05:15 AM
it would be very nice, in general, to have a setup like Oregon's sauvie island for training in WA state. Having WDFW allow/promote training, planting birds, ect.. vs having to really work to make legit year round public access training happen up here in WA (vs paying high dollar private E WA ranch put n take fees).
There should be something like that on both sides of the mountains in WA. You shouldn't have to drive potentially six hours to such a site.
Post by: bracer40 on January 22, 2016, 10:09:39 AM
Couple of points here: yes you can run your dog in trials while on foot as others have stated but don't be fooled into thinking you'll be doing much actual walking. I followed an open gun dog brace @ Madras a few years ago and I was mostly running just to keep the action in sight. I did that to learn what it would be like to walk the brace's running. When my dog's braces were run I chose to use my friend's horse. Waaaay easier to follow the action.That's good to hear that people are so helpful. I know my first experience with an AKC event wasn't so great. I feel like I was treated like a second class citizen because I wasn't affiliated with one of the big trainers. I showed up with my dog and he ran well but I felt like an outcast. Second event I ran was better but I feel like the only reason why was because the judges knew the breeder of my dog. I think I'm going to run my dog this spring at a horseback trial but I'll end up walking it. The trial is being run in Ritzville this spring. Thanks for your input
There are two types of bird dog owners, those who train their own dogs and those who spend literally thousands having a trainer work and train their dog. There are pluses and minuses to both, but I think what you were seeing there were people who knew each other via a given trainer and as such you saw how clickish those circles can become. You can see this rise to the top on forums like this sometimes (this one not so much however) and it can often become a type written blood bath with competing training philosophies and even breed arguments if two trainers also breed two different types of dog. Those arguments usually erupt between people who buy trainers' services, not the trainers (at least not the more professional ones).
My suggestion would be to keep running your dog. Be friendly and accept any criticism the judges might have. The people worth talking to will eventually open up. Particularly if you show you're not a poor loser or the type that wants to put a few ounces of lead in the dog's head for not putting in a champion performance.
And if that doesn't work, look at other venues. While it doesn't have the same presence out here as east of the Mississippi, American Field does have sanctioned events out this way and there is still the NSTRA.
Having said that, I do think there really needs to be some more options for amateurs out here. Most of us don't own (and never want to) a horse or hunt a dog while riding on one.
I've also learned through asking lots of questions of the "long-time" trialers and HT participants that the actions of the handler can negatively impact not only their own dog's performance, but also their bracemate's performance. And it's pretty obvious when you walk through the campgrounds that many, if not most, of the trialers have a lot invested in the game. Just look at the rigs built to haul multiple horses, strings of dogs staked out and so forth. That's just the outward financial signs. Equally important are the long hours spent preparing for trials, traveling to and from them and so forth. Personally I prefer attending hunt tests because it suits my personal goals I have for my dogs. But poor and or inexperienced dog handling @hunt tests can also cause heartache for your brace ate as well.
I guess I'm sharing this not to promote or discourage a new person from participating in these events but to say that learning the rules and good practices through humbly asking lots of questions can go a long way to being "accepted" by the dog competition community.
Post by: AspenBud on January 22, 2016, 10:49:43 AM
Couple of points here: yes you can run your dog in trials while on foot as others have stated but don't be fooled into thinking you'll be doing much actual walking. I followed an open gun dog brace @ Madras a few years ago and I was mostly running just to keep the action in sight. I did that to learn what it would be like to walk the brace's running. When my dog's braces were run I chose to use my friend's horse. Waaaay easier to follow the action.That's good to hear that people are so helpful. I know my first experience with an AKC event wasn't so great. I feel like I was treated like a second class citizen because I wasn't affiliated with one of the big trainers. I showed up with my dog and he ran well but I felt like an outcast. Second event I ran was better but I feel like the only reason why was because the judges knew the breeder of my dog. I think I'm going to run my dog this spring at a horseback trial but I'll end up walking it. The trial is being run in Ritzville this spring. Thanks for your input
There are two types of bird dog owners, those who train their own dogs and those who spend literally thousands having a trainer work and train their dog. There are pluses and minuses to both, but I think what you were seeing there were people who knew each other via a given trainer and as such you saw how clickish those circles can become. You can see this rise to the top on forums like this sometimes (this one not so much however) and it can often become a type written blood bath with competing training philosophies and even breed arguments if two trainers also breed two different types of dog. Those arguments usually erupt between people who buy trainers' services, not the trainers (at least not the more professional ones).
My suggestion would be to keep running your dog. Be friendly and accept any criticism the judges might have. The people worth talking to will eventually open up. Particularly if you show you're not a poor loser or the type that wants to put a few ounces of lead in the dog's head for not putting in a champion performance.
And if that doesn't work, look at other venues. While it doesn't have the same presence out here as east of the Mississippi, American Field does have sanctioned events out this way and there is still the NSTRA.
Having said that, I do think there really needs to be some more options for amateurs out here. Most of us don't own (and never want to) a horse or hunt a dog while riding on one.
I've also learned through asking lots of questions of the "long-time" trialers and HT participants that the actions of the handler can negatively impact not only their own dog's performance, but also their bracemate's performance. And it's pretty obvious when you walk through the campgrounds that many, if not most, of the trialers have a lot invested in the game. Just look at the rigs built to haul multiple horses, strings of dogs staked out and so forth. That's just the outward financial signs. Equally important are the long hours spent preparing for trials, traveling to and from them and so forth. Personally I prefer attending hunt tests because it suits my personal goals I have for my dogs. But poor and or inexperienced dog handling @hunt tests can also cause heartache for your brace ate as well.
I guess I'm sharing this not to promote or discourage a new person from participating in these events but to say that learning the rules and good practices through humbly asking lots of questions can go a long way to being "accepted" by the dog competition community.
I learned that the hard way last year. I entered a dog, a Pointer I rescued years ago now, in a FUN trial. The dog has always been a personal hunting dog, he doesn't really even get the command "whoa," but he always finds and points birds. We got braced with a much better bred and trained Pointer, the dog was calm and quiet while mine was going ape just wanting to get at the birds. We turned the dogs loose and my dog proceeded to out find and out point the other. The problem? The birds planted were poor flyers, like you could throw them in the air and they would fall to the ground and just run around until someone's dog came unglued and retrieved them, and with the competition of another dog, one mine had never hunted with before, my dog broke point almost every time and took out the birds. To make matters worse the one bird that the guy's dog did point got taken out when mine decided to stop backing and went after the bird again.
I hunt that dog alone typically. He had never been in that kind of a situation before and while he shamed the other dog in bird finding and pointing, he fell apart in all the wrong areas. The guy I was braced with was pissed but was forgiving enough given that it was, after all, a fun trial. I can only imagine if that were the real deal.
Post by: AspenBud on January 22, 2016, 11:07:52 AM
Post by: jetjockey on January 22, 2016, 11:53:03 AM
Post by: JayBird02 on January 22, 2016, 12:07:48 PM
One thing that hasn't been said about new people trying the sport for the first time, is you have to understand everyone putting on these trials are volunteers, that often need help. It's not uncommon for someone to show up to a trial for the first time with a dog they think is a super star, with a chip in their shoulder. Then when they don't place, or their dog screws up, they get mad and cant stand the constructive criticism they get. One way to get your foot in the door is to tell the trial secretary your a newbie who is interested in getting into the sport, and offer to help. There's never enough help at trials. While a newby won't be able to scout for someone, or be a bird planter, martial, or even run the dog wagon, you can always help out.... One thing my wife and I did was offer to cook the meals for one trial. Talk about a GREAT way to get on everyone's good graces and make new friends. Heck, since then I've been told I'm not invited to a trial unless I plan on cooking my Low Country Boil for everyone. I have people I swear I've never met thank me and my wife for stepping up and helping out. Cooking is easy, and anyone can do it. If you enter your dog in a brace, introduce yourself to the judges and tell them it's your first time and your just there to learn. They will typically bend over BACKWARDS to help you out. At one trial, my Pro forced me to run my dog in a 1hr Open All Age trial. I literally got off the plane, drove to the trial, changed clothes, and found out I was running my dog. I told the judges what was happening, and that I was relatively inexperienced, especially in 1hr trials. 30 minutes in I almost pulled the plug because my dog was out of judgement for almost 10 minutes. The judge just told me to keep riding and trust my scout (my Pro) and not to blow what was a great race up till that point. 2 or 3 minutes later my dog showed to the front and proceeded to hang on every ridge 500-600 yards to the front, finishing with 3 beautiful limb finds. At the end of the brace, the judge road up and simply said "that was pretty"! Turns out that was my first 1hr win, and I almost blew my chances... Trials are a lot of fun but they aren't necessarily easy to get your foot into the door. Show up with a good attitude, offer to help, and ALWAYS bring beer, and you will help yourself out immensely.I will say at the Hunt Test events I've been at the judges have always been great. The first Hunt Test I ever ran in my dog had 5 finds. The dog he was braced with had 0 and members of the club that had put on the event cornered me and began to yell at me for not picking up my dog so that the other dog could have a chance to find some birds. I know HT's aren't a supposed to be a competition between the dogs but I was proud of my dog and how he ran. I left confused and pretty pissed. If it wasn't for RJ Marquart I probably would have never ran my dog again. I ended up talking to him for probably close to an hour after the event just talking hunting and dogs. The next day I ran again and I was braced with Doug Burnett from Cooke Canyon and he was helpful the entire time giving me pointers on how to handle my dogs. My experiences haven't always been bad and for the most part people have been helpful. But I do feel that in Eastern Washington you're limited to HT's if you don't have a horse I guess my best option would be to get involved with a club and try to get more walking trials around here.