Post by: skeeter 20i on February 22, 2016, 06:59:29 AM
I'm was working up loads for my newish Tikka and am relatively new to reloading having just started this last year. I started with one powder, bullet etc and built up to sub MOA loads with a couple of bullets checking / cross referencing a couple of different info sources.
Ok so having a couple goods loads added to the book i moved onto the next new bullet and i added a new powder to try, heres where i wasted a trip to the range by not double checking another source.
Im trying the139 grain SST,H4831sc, COL 3.29, CCI250 Primer.
I pulled up the Hornady book and found my range of 55-65 i loaded up 3 shot string from 60-67 increasing by one grain increments. The results really weren't impressive and had me puzzled, things were starting to come together but hadn't got there when i ran out of rounds. It isn't until i got home and double checked the Hogdon website and saw that they say a spread of 64.5-68.8. One source pretty much ended where another source started.
So my question is first does anyone have experience with this combo that could share what they've found and do other calibers show the same wide spread of loads between bullet /powder manf. Sources?
Post by: jrebel on February 22, 2016, 08:06:22 AM
Post by: skeeter 20i on February 22, 2016, 08:21:45 AM
If you had a load shooting sub MOA, why would you buy another powder and bullet? Stick with what works...at least that is what I do. :dunno: :dunno:
Oh I hear u I'm just getting started in reloading and am in the "well let's try this one" stage. Besides if I stopped when I found a load I would have to buy a new rifle every time I wantedt o try a new bullet.......wait.........THATS BRILLIANT!
Just learning and starting out. Seems I enjoy reloading, that's why I asked.
Post by: jrebel on February 22, 2016, 08:24:03 AM
Post by: DaveMonti on February 22, 2016, 10:27:45 AM
To determine where the max is, increase the powder by small increments (.2 or .5 grain) until you start seeing your primers flatten out, or start to see brass cracking, fatiguing, etc.
I have a 7mm RM myself, and once I settled on a good load with Nosler Partition (140 gr), I pretty much settled on it as my deer and elk load. I'm not using the rifle for tinkering with loads to get real tight shooting loads, but the load I have will certainly be accurate out to the ranges I am comfortable with (400 yards or so). I also worked up a very hot load with 100 gr bullets for longer range antelope hunting, but now that I'm settled on two good loads, I'm pretty set. I do mess around with loads with my .243 and .25-06 (both heavy barreled rifles), but I find the most accurate loads are not near the max powder charges.
Post by: KNOPHISH on February 22, 2016, 10:53:20 AM
Post by: bobcat on February 22, 2016, 10:58:12 AM
However, if your components are all exactly the same as the recipe in your book, you are generally safe with the max load shown. They're usually a bit on the conservative side so you can often safely go a couple grains over the book max.
But again, if you want to take the guesswork out of it, use a chronograph.
Post by: DaveMonti on February 22, 2016, 11:16:49 AM
I realize the chronograph will tell you the velocity, but how does it indicate the max load? Do the velocities from shot to shot become inconsistent as you go beyond the "max" load?
Just curious, I never heard of using the chrono to determine max load.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 22, 2016, 12:23:15 PM
Post by: tonymiller7 on February 23, 2016, 11:47:41 AM
If you had a load shooting sub MOA, why would you buy another powder and bullet? Stick with what works...at least that is what I do. :dunno: :dunno:
Oh I hear u I'm just getting started in reloading and am in the "well let's try this one" stage. Besides if I stopped when I found a load I would have to buy a new rifle every time I wantedt o try a new bullet.......wait.........THATS BRILLIANT!
Just learning and starting out. Seems I enjoy reloading, that's why I asked.
Reload a lot of the round that works well and shoot more. I never understood tinkering once you've found a round that works well.
Post by: Curly on February 23, 2016, 11:58:46 AM
Bobcat,
I realize the chronograph will tell you the velocity, but how does it indicate the max load? Do the velocities from shot to shot become inconsistent as you go beyond the "max" load?
Just curious, I never heard of using the chrono to determine max load.
You could graph velocity vs. powder charge and it should look like a fairly linear increase. Then as you reach max powder, you will see the graph flatten out. There does come a point where more powder does not result in much of a velocity increase. (There may even be a point where increasing powder results in less velocity.)
Post by: huntnphool on February 23, 2016, 12:01:43 PM
Load ranges will vary quite a bit from publisher to publisher. Generally, the publishers of the reloading manuals are going to be conservative on the loads they publish. There is a lot of variability in firearm design, so their published max loads will be the max for the "weakest" action rifle.
To determine where the max is, increase the powder by small increments (.2 or .5 grain) until you start seeing your primers flatten out, or start to see brass cracking, fatiguing, etc.
I have a 7mm RM myself, and once I settled on a good load with Nosler Partition (140 gr), I pretty much settled on it as my deer and elk load. I'm not using the rifle for tinkering with loads to get real tight shooting loads, but the load I have will certainly be accurate out to the ranges I am comfortable with (400 yards or so). I also worked up a very hot load with 100 gr bullets for longer range antelope hunting, but now that I'm settled on two good loads, I'm pretty set. I do mess around with loads with my .243 and .25-06 (both heavy barreled rifles), but I find the most accurate loads are not near the max powder charges.
I also use 140gr Partitions out of my 7RM, 4831sc
Post by: Bill W on February 23, 2016, 12:05:17 PM
You'll find out maximum load recommendations are way more cautious these days.
Post by: Reidus on February 23, 2016, 01:08:45 PM
Bobcat,
I realize the chronograph will tell you the velocity, but how does it indicate the max load? Do the velocities from shot to shot become inconsistent as you go beyond the "max" load?
Just curious, I never heard of using the chrono to determine max load.
You could graph velocity vs. powder charge and it should look like a fairly linear increase. Then as you reach max powder, you will see the graph flatten out. There does come a point where more powder does not result in much of a velocity increase. (There may even be a point where increasing powder results in less velocity.)
This doesn't make sense to me. With certain powder/bullet combos it may work but in some cases I think you will see flattened primers and a sticky bolt before you see a decrease in velocity gain.
Post by: bobcat on February 23, 2016, 01:20:34 PM
Bobcat,
I realize the chronograph will tell you the velocity, but how does it indicate the max load? Do the velocities from shot to shot become inconsistent as you go beyond the "max" load?
Just curious, I never heard of using the chrono to determine max load.
You could graph velocity vs. powder charge and it should look like a fairly linear increase. Then as you reach max powder, you will see the graph flatten out. There does come a point where more powder does not result in much of a velocity increase. (There may even be a point where increasing powder results in less velocity.)
This doesn't make sense to me. With certain powder/bullet combos it may work but in some cases I think you will see flattened primers and a sticky bolt before you see a decrease in velocity gain.
You should stop increasing your powder charge once you reach the maximum expected velocity. If you're getting more velocity than the book shows you're most likely also over pressure. If you're seeing over pressure signs with your brass and/or your bolt being hard to open, then you're probably WAY over pressure. Better to stop before you reach that point. This is why a chronograph is very useful.
Post by: Reidus on February 23, 2016, 01:23:52 PM
Post by: DaveMonti on February 23, 2016, 01:35:57 PM
Post by: huntnphool on February 23, 2016, 02:17:43 PM
Bobcat,
I realize the chronograph will tell you the velocity, but how does it indicate the max load? Do the velocities from shot to shot become inconsistent as you go beyond the "max" load?
Just curious, I never heard of using the chrono to determine max load.
You could graph velocity vs. powder charge and it should look like a fairly linear increase. Then as you reach max powder, you will see the graph flatten out. There does come a point where more powder does not result in much of a velocity increase. (There may even be a point where increasing powder results in less velocity.)
This doesn't make sense to me. With certain powder/bullet combos it may work but in some cases I think you will see flattened primers and a sticky bolt before you see a decrease in velocity gain.
You should stop increasing your powder charge once you reach the maximum expected velocity. If you're getting more velocity than the book shows you're most likely also over pressure. If you're seeing over pressure signs with your brass and/or your bolt being hard to open, then you're probably WAY over pressure. Better to stop before you reach that point. This is why a chronograph is very useful.
Good points.
I'll add that I have been predominately shooting a 7RM for a long time, have more than a couple decent trophies, have never needed more than one shot out to 500 yards and do not run maximum load.
One of the advantages to the 7mm round is its flat trajectory, without having to go max load.
Is there a reason why you feel you need to go as hot as you can? :twocents:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 23, 2016, 04:54:14 PM
No reason to shoot lower loads of a hotter load is just as accurate and not over pressure for your particular load and rifle. :twocents:
But I agree to keep it conservative so that different conditions won't create unwanted pressure spikes.
Post by: high country on February 23, 2016, 05:05:01 PM
If you can safely work up added velocity and not lose accuracy why wouldn't you make it faster? Get all you can.
No reason to shoot lower loads of a hotter load is just as accurate and not over pressure for your particular load and rifle. :twocents:
But I agree to keep it conservative so that different conditions won't create unwanted pressure spikes.
if he is new to reloading he may want to consider atmospheric conditional changes that affect the velocity and pressures. A book that was published shooting in cool and high density air will not be the same as those shot in hot conditions. The temperature of the powder plays a big role too, some powders are fairly temperature sensitive.
I stick to suggesting the velocity range that is a known for the cartridge and not pushing it until the shooter knows how to measure the brass for strain.....its not worth it, just hold a quarter inch higher.
Post by: bearpaw on February 23, 2016, 05:08:11 PM
If you get too much pressure you can damage a gun and possibly yourself. Always start with a low load and work up. Every time you shoot a load with a little more powder or a change of primer or change of bullet you need to inspect your spent case.
One of the first signs of pressure is flat primers. One of the next signs is a dimple from the firing pin, if you rub you finger nail across the primer and feel an edge where the primer struck that is caused by pressure. Check for case length stretching and for splits in the case too. If you see any of these signs it's time to stop and probably back off the powder.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 23, 2016, 06:33:08 PM
Good info. One test I like to use for pressure is to get a round all wet and load and fire it. The water will take up some chamber space and cause higher pressure. Which may show symptoms if the load is on the edge.If you can safely work up added velocity and not lose accuracy why wouldn't you make it faster? Get all you can.
No reason to shoot lower loads of a hotter load is just as accurate and not over pressure for your particular load and rifle. :twocents:
But I agree to keep it conservative so that different conditions won't create unwanted pressure spikes.
if he is new to reloading he may want to consider atmospheric conditional changes that affect the velocity and pressures. A book that was published shooting in cool and high density air will not be the same as those shot in hot conditions. The temperature of the powder plays a big role too, some powders are fairly temperature sensitive.
I stick to suggesting the velocity range that is a known for the cartridge and not pushing it until the shooter knows how to measure the brass for strain.....its not worth it, just hold a quarter inch higher.
I don't mean to say everyone needs to hot rod their loads but at the same time don't see the reason to leave velocity on the table. But at the same time 50 or even 75 fps isnt a real big deal. Even at longer range. I try and be near the max published velocity. Corrected for barrel length if different. I figure 30-40 fps per inch is a good rough idea
Post by: bobcat on February 23, 2016, 07:24:34 PM
Post by: jamesjett on February 23, 2016, 07:44:54 PM
Post by: rudysts on February 24, 2016, 09:10:51 AM
I've been loading for my 7mm for over 20 years and bullet seating depth seems to be the biggest factor in accuracy. Measure the lands to ogive for each differerent bullet you want to experiment with. Some like it .020 off and Barnes love them about .060 - .080 off the lands. :twocents:
I agree seating depth matters in any rifle and bullet powder combination it can also change your pressures higher or lower.
In the past year I have been using Quickload software for reloading and it is saving me money on components, I am able to identify a powder bullet combination with predicted pressures and velocity with this program.
Post by: Piscatory_5 on March 15, 2016, 10:37:47 AM
If you want to see how recommended maximum loads are all over the place, find some of the old books from the 60's and 70's and see what those maximum loads were.Indeed, I have a Lyman book from that era, given to me by my father with the words, "be careful of max loads in that book they are hot". Be sure and check what firearm they tested the loads in and barrel length as well. Universal receiver and 26" barrel will not be the same as Remington 700 mountain rifle with 22" barrel.
You'll find out maximum load recommendations are way more cautious these days.
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