Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 29, 2009, 07:50:34 AM
"Several changes are proposed for the special permit application system. The proposed changes were developed during the public comment period for the 2009-11 Hunting Season Package; however programming changes to the drawing system could not be completed in time for the 2009 drawing. Therefore, these recommended changes will be implemented for the 2010 drawing. The proposed changes have received support from the public as well as Game Management Advisory Council members. These changes will generate funding to expand the hunter access program into priority areas of the state"
Post by: colockumelk on January 29, 2009, 08:56:15 AM
Post by: WACATHUNTER on January 29, 2009, 09:07:51 AM
I definitly don't want a max point draw system, I like the idea of always having a slight chance in hell. My 2 cents.
WACAT
Post by: HardCorpsHuntr on January 29, 2009, 09:17:48 AM
Post by: bowhuntin on January 29, 2009, 09:21:57 AM
Post by: GoldTip on January 29, 2009, 09:48:18 AM
I'd like to see 90% of permits go to max points and 10% to random. :twocents:
I would like to see the application cost go to $50 or $75 for the OIL tags such as sheep, moose and goats. Keep the $5 for the drawing fee and then refund the rest after the state has drawn interest on it for 3 months. Works well and has for years in Montana.
Post by: colockumelk on January 29, 2009, 10:16:47 AM
I believe that our system does square the points, for example if you have 2 points you are getting 4 names in the hat. I may be incorrect but that was my belief.
I definitly don't want a max point draw system, I like the idea of always having a slight chance in hell. My 2 cents.
WACAT
Yeah you're right cat it is a squared system. I don't like the max point system either. Like I said I like Montana's multiples of ten system. That way when you get some points they actually mean something. I put in every year and for what? I never get drawn. As much money as I spend every year on tags I deserve better than that and so does every one else. Something needs to be done so that we're not going 10 years without getting drawn.
Post by: Gobble on January 29, 2009, 10:25:42 AM
I like the system the way it is now. Every year you have a chance to draw. I just hope they change the amount of choices an individual is allowed, that should help increase an individuals odds.
+1
Post by: Alan K on January 29, 2009, 10:35:47 AM
And it's not because I've drawn a ton of tags either. I've never been drawn for deer since I was putting in for youth tags, and never drawn an elk tag or any other tag for that matter ever.
I've put in for 9 years for premier bull tags and never been drawn, and that's because they are premier tags. Want an easy draw? Put in for a cow tag. It's the same way in every state. . . Premier tags take many years to draw.
Post by: bowhuntin on January 29, 2009, 10:44:15 AM
I think that our current point system is pointless. I mean one point per year that means jack chit. They should go to what Montana does which is mulitiples of 10. If you don't get drawn this year then next year your name gets put into the hat ten times. If somehow you still dont get drawn then next year your name goes in the hat 100 times etc. It is rare over there for people not to get drawn at least every three years. Except for in high draw areas like the Missouri Breaks. Instead in WA we have people like me and my brother who are going on like year six and still havn't been drawn. I bow hunt and put in for areas like Rimrock and Peaches Ridge were more than a hundred permits are put out. Just one more reason to hate our WDFW.
Do you put in for a group hunt or something? Those hunts you listed only take an average of three points. You should be due to be drawn if you have six points.
Post by: bucklucky on January 29, 2009, 10:51:47 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 29, 2009, 10:58:01 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 29, 2009, 10:59:52 AM
Post by: bucklucky on January 29, 2009, 11:01:04 AM
Post by: NoBark on January 29, 2009, 11:18:29 AM
Utah is a mix and I think that is the direction it may be going. I could go for a percent to max like some have suggested but I'd like to see no more that 10% to max holders.
Now it does talk about increased monies and a max point draw does nothing in that regard so perhaps the change will be more along the lines of people being able to 'buy' more points. I sure hope not. It is already giving the rich more opportunity as it is and having guys 'buy' 5 or 10 points a year would be a :bdid:
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 29, 2009, 11:39:45 AM
Post by: colockumelk on January 29, 2009, 11:48:09 AM
I like it just fine the way it is now.
And it's not because I've drawn a ton of tags either. I've never been drawn for deer since I was putting in for youth tags, and never drawn an elk tag or any other tag for that matter ever.
I've put in for 9 years for premier bull tags and never been drawn, and that's because they are premier tags. Want an easy draw? Put in for a cow tag. It's the same way in every state. . . Premier tags take many years to draw.
I bowhunt I can't put in for cow tags. And I don't put in for premier hunts. I put in for Colockum 4 permits (okay this one is a premier hunt) Then I put in for Peaches Ridge 120 Permits, Observatory 100 permits, and then Rimrock 102 permits.
Bowhuntin I must be the most unlucky person in the world. This is why I think they should change the point system. Because right now your points don't mean crap. Your odds do not increase hardly at all. If they were multiples ie Montana then my preference points would actually have an impact on my chances of getting drawn.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 29, 2009, 11:53:57 AM
1. You select only one OIL species and can only apply for that species. This will reduce applicants for each species giving a more realistic chance to draw one in your life.
2. Limit non-residents to 10% of the draw like all the other states.
3. Make it more expensive for OIL species so those that really want to do it stay in for them, while those that are just doing it for fun for $5 don't put in. That way we don't have the coveted sheep tag holders take a 1 year and 4 year old ram, like we did this year in a unit. They walk up the hill and shoot the first sheep they see. Wow, their lifelong dreams have been fulfilled... >:( I'm not saying make it $1000 so only the rich can do it, but 50-100 dollars seems reasonable. Or front the money like most of the other states. If you really want to hunt sheep, moose, or goat you will find a credit card to put the money on for a month...
Post by: boneaddict on January 29, 2009, 12:11:47 PM
Take a gander at my wyoming thread on their pool numbers. Imagine a 16 year old or 18 year old gettin in at ground zero now. WILL never draw. I'm now sitting with about 6 points for moose for instance. Max is anywhere from9-12 todraw and going up every year. Once I draw, no more Is that what you want here. Yeah if you are bitter because you haven't drawn in the last 10 years, well once you draw, just figure it will never happen again.
Post by: dreamingbig on January 29, 2009, 12:13:21 PM
Guys we have the best draw system in the west, everyone has a shot each year, with the multiplier those who haven't drawn each year have an exponentially better chance of drawing. If they tweak it then they should set aside like 25% of the tags to those that are over a certain number of points, i.e. 10. My suspecion is that the top point pools are getting fewer and fewer each year, the guys that whine about never drawing are probably only putting in for premium tags. Then of course you will always have guys who get lucky and draw premium tags with few points, but they are the exception not the rule.
I am not complaining but I haven't been drawn yet for archery elk since I have been applying. I have only put in for goose prairie and rimrock (good units, but not the most premium units) and am now 0-5. The draw is tougher than some people think. Or I just have really bad luck. ;)
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 29, 2009, 12:16:47 PM
Post by: GoldTip on January 29, 2009, 12:21:34 PM
And for those of you who plan to flame me or make any sort of, Hunting is already being geared towards the rich. To that this is my response, if you can't afford to pay $100 bucks to apply for the tag and possibly lose $50 of it for the chance, then you probably can't afford to go on the hunt anyway even if you drew the tag.
Post by: shanevg on January 29, 2009, 12:36:14 PM
Unluckily, according to the survey, no one sees it that way. A majority of hunters want four options every single year, they just don't realize how much that is decreasing their odds.
And I haven't been drawn for any good tags yet. I got one cow tag when I was a youth, and one doe tag when I was a youth. And I've been applying for 9 years now.
Post by: boneaddict on January 29, 2009, 12:42:19 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 29, 2009, 12:43:05 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 29, 2009, 12:45:53 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 29, 2009, 12:47:40 PM
In WA, there are so many max pool people you would literally have to live to 80 years old + to draw. Who wants to hunt sheep in the nursing home?
Post by: boneaddict on January 29, 2009, 12:48:34 PM
Post by: hogsniper on January 29, 2009, 12:53:32 PM
Post by: NRA4LIFE on January 29, 2009, 12:56:25 PM
Our system isn't the greatest, but there are worse. I think there are a lot of good suggestions here.
Post by: robodad on January 29, 2009, 01:10:57 PM
Post by: shanevg on January 29, 2009, 01:14:13 PM
I just say do away with points completely!
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 29, 2009, 01:16:59 PM
Post by: hogsniper on January 29, 2009, 01:25:39 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 29, 2009, 01:32:22 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 29, 2009, 01:35:31 PM
Post by: stumprat on January 29, 2009, 01:41:34 PM
I don't see anything wrong with building points for your kids. It still takes them just as long as it take anyone else and it is still just as hard to draw. Why put kids at anymore of a disadvantage then they are already at by starting to accumulate points 10+ years after the rest of us.
I just say do away with points completely!
:yeah:
Post by: boneaddict on January 29, 2009, 01:46:21 PM
Post by: 270Shooter on January 29, 2009, 08:29:16 PM
Want an easy draw? Put in for a cow tag. It's the same way in every state. . . Premier tags take many years to draw.Whats sad is even cow tags are getting tough to draw here.
Post by: bobcat on January 29, 2009, 09:28:05 PM
Post by: shanevg on January 29, 2009, 09:32:53 PM
I think we have one of the best draw systems anywhere. Ours is modeled after Nevada's. I would agree with the idea of limiting the number of choices. Two choices is enough, one would be better, but I could live with two. Increasing the cost at least for the moose, sheep, and goat permits would help as well. AND, limiting the number of non-residents. The main problem with the draw in this state is there are too many hunters and not enough animals.
:yeah: Perfect!
Post by: Huntbear on January 29, 2009, 10:19:12 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 29, 2009, 10:24:45 PM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on January 29, 2009, 10:29:14 PM
Utah gave up on that(limiting it) They figured they could get more funds by opening it up. It also has a preference system so you'll probably have a hard time catching up to the species you haven't been banking points for. They just figured out another way to get $10 of your money without you being able to draw. LOL
Ain't that the truth...those little weazels. Even sent out an email to all the NRs touting how we now have the "opportunity" to apply for all the species! Hence why I dropped Utah this year...figure there's no way I can catch up with the limited number of tags and all the people in front of me.
I like our current system. Squaring points gives long time applicants a huge advantage, but everyone's still in the draw. At least you've got a chance...can't say that for a lot of the hunts in other states.
Post by: dbllunger on January 29, 2009, 10:29:20 PM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on January 29, 2009, 10:32:48 PM
"These changes will generate funding to expand the hunter access program into priority areas of the state"
This is the interesting part to me...maybe they're going to raise the OIL application fees, or require us to front the $$ so they can get the interest? Maybe they'll require you to buy a hunting license to apply for OIL tags? All good changes IMHO. Raise some extra $$ for hunting purposes, and keep out the part-timers who shoot yearling sheep.
Post by: WAcoueshunter on January 29, 2009, 10:41:12 PM
Post by: SHANE(WA) on January 30, 2009, 02:41:12 AM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on January 30, 2009, 05:35:42 AM
If they change the preference point system i will be very upset. Yes i put in for tough to draw hunts and i have 11 points and i can't waste them on an easy to draw tag now.
If i wanted to shoot a cow i woul dgo hunt the either sex units, and i have been putting in for the same units for 10 years, why woul di change now... I might not buy a ML elk tag this year, i might just put in for one of those rifel rut hunts and buy a modern rifle tag...
I would like to see them say reduce it to 2 choices per animal, and pay up front. I hope they don't change it to deer/elk or OIL. Already have been putting in for to many years to eat all those points.
I also think it works the way it is i just have bad luck. I did get drawn once, then the WDFW said "Psyche", redraw time...
Post by: Up a Creek on January 30, 2009, 11:29:23 PM
Post by: RC3 on January 30, 2009, 11:45:39 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 30, 2009, 11:50:57 PM
Post by: RC3 on January 31, 2009, 12:42:08 AM
Post by: Elkstuffer on January 31, 2009, 09:18:15 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 31, 2009, 09:21:57 PM
Post by: Elkstuffer on February 01, 2009, 09:31:38 AM
I think as long as they have a Wild I.D. number they can purchase a hunting license and the tags necessary to apply for the special permits. So, there is no minimum age, they just need to pass a hunter's ed. class in order to be eligible to buy a license and tags.
To put in for the OIL draws you do not have to have a wild id #. That is one of the things flawed with this system. A nonresident can put in for these tags for $50 and the do not have to buy a nonresident hunting license.
Post by: bobcat on February 01, 2009, 09:36:07 AM
Post by: MountainMan7640 on February 01, 2009, 12:59:46 PM
I have been applying for more than 14 years now for a Big Bull and Moose tag with no sucess. My luck is normal if there was a drawing with 100 tickets and I owned 99 of them I could not even win second place. It is also my choice to put in for any of these special permit drawings. I know the odds are pretty high in the areas I muzzleload for elk in and somehow it does seem a little strange and here is why. My son and I have put in so many years without being drawn, yet a friend has put in 3 years and drawn two big bull permits in this time. Now somehow this does not add up.
I could go into alot of flaws in the system, and some pros but until someone can come up with a better system I think it is better than the old one.
Just my 2cents worth
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on February 01, 2009, 02:46:06 PM
I think that our current point system is pointless. I mean one point per year that means jack chit. They should go to what Montana does which is mulitiples of 10. If you don't get drawn this year then next year your name gets put into the hat ten times. If somehow you still dont get drawn then next year your name goes in the hat 100 times etc. It is rare over there for people not to get drawn at least every three years. Except for in high draw areas like the Missouri Breaks. Instead in WA we have people like me and my brother who are going on like year six and still havn't been drawn."
I hear you, I have 8 points this year myself and have never been drawn. I am considering tossing all my points and not buying a license in this damn State anymore and giving my money to Idaho, Montana and Oregon, where it is understood hunting is OK and part of life. I am about fed up with the politics in this State. We have the highest resident license fees in the Western States and by far the least opportunity, where does the money go?????? I know where it goes, but I wonder how many other's do.
Post by: Up a Creek on March 16, 2009, 09:42:56 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 17, 2009, 05:42:06 AM
One thing that would greatly increase the odds of drawing a special permit is to do away with the general seasons and go to permit only, for deer and elk. People wouldn't be able to hunt each species every single year, but you'd have a heck of a lot better chance of drawing a permit.
Post by: boneaddict on March 17, 2009, 05:58:20 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 17, 2009, 06:14:20 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 17, 2009, 06:30:44 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 17, 2009, 06:39:19 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 17, 2009, 06:40:13 AM
Post by: UBA on March 17, 2009, 07:31:37 AM
Post by: HuntingFanatic on March 17, 2009, 07:49:20 AM
I wish they would make deer tags like elk, you choose what side of the mountains you will hunt and apply for it would really cut out pressure from coasties. Its not like alot of normal eastsiders go get little black tails but they love our mulies and elk. Also they should make it so you can only choose 2 GMUs per app/species. my nickels worthHa!This coastie would be comin over peeing in your woods still! LOL.
I think that they should limit the selections to 1 or 2 as well. I only have 5 deer points. I am thinking about adding a second choice this year.
I like the pay ahead deal for non residents. Ive shelled out 800 dollars so far on tags...money i could have spent elsewhere....but I WANT TO HUNT. So I paid. And I wait! And if it doesnt work out. I get my money back....minus a fee of coarse.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 17, 2009, 08:27:42 AM
Post by: ramslam on March 17, 2009, 05:49:07 PM
I have not seen the moose list but would expect it to be similar. Given the expense of applying for elk and deer (must buy a license and tag) I can't see there being many non-residents that apply for those species.
I've been told choices will be cut to two but I have not seen that anywhere in writing.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on March 17, 2009, 05:50:36 PM
Quote
I've been told choices will be cut to two but I have not seen that anywhere in writing
For this year?
Post by: bowhuntin on March 17, 2009, 06:27:45 PM
QuoteI've been told choices will be cut to two but I have not seen that anywhere in writing
For this year?
I thought that I heard someone say they were changing the amount of choices you were allowed also, but I went back and checked the survey results and more people wanted to keep the four choices. So, if they listen to what the people have to say in the survey we are stuck with four choices again.
Post by: chukarchaser on March 17, 2009, 10:28:00 PM
Post by: steeleywhopper on March 19, 2009, 10:55:21 PM
POints are the Scourge of ****. This has been discussed a bunch but I feel folks don't get it. For systems like Colorado, there is a true preference point system. If you don't have the points, you don't draw. That means that your kids and if you ever draw, you basically will never hunt. Your wifes 15 points can be a drop in the bucket. If there is no random chance and even the %25 that Wyoming teases you with, you are looking at the same problem. In point systems that are squared (like Washington) you have a weighted chance but it is still random. I would bet your wife is putting in for the elite units. A true system that really works is NO POINTSIdaho and NM are the only two states that do it. I put in one year in Idaho and drew moose, and one year and drew an elite bull tag in NM. Gee wonder if that system works. If you REALLY want to re-structure our draw, make it one choice instead of 4. It will make people start thinking REAL HARD where they want to bank their points. Then make it one choice for species of OIL. If you REALLY want to improve the odds, make it you can either choose deer or elk or OIL like Idaho does. Thats why Idaho has the best draw odds in the Union.
Amen Brotha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go back to one choice. You sure won't see this post anymore.. "Hey I drew a cow tag for gmu %$# on my 4th choice and I don't know anything about it. Please direct me to the elk." "Oh well, I decided not to go so the tag went to waste". Meanwhile some poor SOB that hunts that area year in and year out who has been trying to draw said cow tag does'nt draw. I guess it would not piss me off as much, but it happend to our family in the area we hunted for years.
Post by: SHANE(WA) on March 19, 2009, 11:45:25 PM
Post by: funkster on March 20, 2009, 08:39:51 AM
Post by: BENCHLEG on March 20, 2009, 10:22:21 PM
Post by: InsideWDFW on March 21, 2009, 08:26:22 AM
If the wdfw is trying to raise money(which I feel they desperately need) how about instead of $5 apps raise it to $20 with no refund. I think this would cut down on hunters not using their tags. When looking at harvest reports that is one thing I can't stand seeing 70 tags issued and only 30 hunters went in to hunt :'(. How about the option to purchase points? $50 per point with a limit of 4 points per year to keep it fair for the average hunter. I 100% agree with limiting hunt choices to 2 would also increase chances of pulling.
One thing that we have to be careful of is to make that hunting in Washington is not based on how wealthy you are. For some, the 45 dollars for a license and application is a major purchase. Hunting in Washington has to stay as accessible as possible.
Regarding the permits, quota is setup based on a 30% harvest rate. If the harvest rate increased, you would see less permits available. This is where people quoted permit numbers as "They increased the permits by 100, they want to slaughter 100 animals!!" is amusing. History has shown that the average harvest rate will remain the same, if not decline, as you increase the available permits. So when we bump a hunt by hundred, we are looking at harvesting an additional 30 animals.
Obviously this the quick example, we know that some units have a higher harvest and some lower.
Post by: billythekidrock on March 21, 2009, 08:33:30 AM
One thing that we have to be careful of is to make that hunting in Washington is not based on how wealthy you are. For some, the 45 dollars for a license and application is a major purchase. Hunting in Washington has to stay as accessible as possible.
+1
Post by: Alan K on March 21, 2009, 09:57:31 AM
I don't like the idea of having to choose species. I like having my name in the hat for every species every year.
One thing I'd like to see in the hunting regs is another column by the number of applicants one. One that shows the total number of names in the hat. When you see the number of applicants that person could have 0 points or 12 points, 1 name in the hat or 144 in the hat. It really doesn't give you much of a feel for hwo good your odds are when you only see the number of applicants.
I wouldn't mind seeing the deer be east or west side. That is, only if the guys that put in for east side tags still do. Help thin out the crowds over on my side of the mountains. :chuckle:
I'd like to think the draws are run honestly, but I smell something fishy when I hear about WDFW employees drawing premier buck and bull tags every other year. :dunno:
Post by: redjeepgirl on March 21, 2009, 10:05:31 AM
One thing that we have to be careful of is to make that hunting in Washington is not based on how wealthy you are. For some, the 45 dollars for a license and application is a major purchase. Hunting in Washington has to stay as accessible as possible.
+1 for that. I hunted in college to feed my friends and family. This also keeps people from getting involved in our sport and further makes it a game for the elite, like "hunting" in Africa.
+1
Post by: Up a Creek on March 22, 2009, 09:52:14 PM
Of course we put in for elite units, if you want a great tag you have to be disciplined. With out a weighted system you might not draw a premium tag in your life time, that was one of the reasons the system was adopted. With the point system at least you know you have a chance of scoring an oil tag compared to possibly never drawing at all. You probably drew good under the no point system (I've been around long enough to have used both) I new a lot of people who took years just to draw a cow tag under that system.
Post by: funkster on March 23, 2009, 08:35:57 AM
One thing that we have to be careful of is to make that hunting in Washington is not based on how wealthy you are. For some, the 45 dollars for a license and application is a major purchase. Hunting in Washington has to stay as accessible as possible.
+1 for that. I hunted in college to feed my friends and family. This also keeps people from getting involved in our sport and further makes it a game for the elite, like "hunting" in Africa.
+1
I hear what you are saying but what's wrong with supporting the sport you love. The wdfw is loosing fundage and if we as hunters don't support them no one will be able to hunt. I thought it might kill two birds with one stone!
I feel that the majority of fishermen and hunters do not hunt or fish to feed their family and friends anymore,the meat harvested is a added bonus. If you where to buy a fishing lic and a hunting tag you are well over $300, 1 person couldn't harvest enough fish or game to make up for $300 of meat you could buy at Costco. Add in gas,weapon and time off work and you are better off going to the store just my :twocents: