Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: GBoyd on May 29, 2016, 12:12:59 PM

Title: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: GBoyd on May 29, 2016, 12:12:59 PM: I know there's a ton of threads comparing different cartridges and bullets, but I have a very specific technical questions that I'm hoping some elk rifle gurus can help me with.

I've been using a bullet chart to help select a bullet. There's a description and link in this thread here:
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,196202.0.html

Most of these bullets would be fine on elk with the perfect heart/lung hit, but I'm wondering if I accidentally hit bone. Assuming I choose one of the bullets that hold together well, what sort of velocities are needed to break through shoulder bones on a large elk? These are all 180 grain, 30 caliber bullets.

Is there somebody here that has seen enough shoulder hits on elk to have a reasonable idea of the speed required?
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: MR5x5 on May 29, 2016, 03:22:59 PM: 280 fps, 425 gr, Montech G5 - Through the scapula into the spine.
Can't imagine any "elk sized" rifle round having a problem breaking down a shoulder.
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: Bean Counter on May 29, 2016, 04:10:52 PM: Quote
I've only chronoed my bow once. It shot 257fps. I believe 340 grain arrows and 100 grain bh. Arrow had 9-10" of penetration on my 2014 bull.

Close eyes + slam trigger! :IBCOOL:

Full disclosure: I also shot one that year, in the vitals area, and it walked off with my arrow :bash: :bash: :bash:

Four of us searched in vain for a day and a half for a blood trail. I'm pretty sure the bull that was getting field dressed 1/4 mile away by some other hunters was the same :dunno:
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: RadSav on May 29, 2016, 04:16:47 PM: I agree. Breaking the shoulder of an elk with a 180 grain 30 cal bullet is not that difficult. If the cartridge is large enough to house the 180 then it's got enough velocity and energy to break the shoulder. Depending on the weight put on that shoulder at impact can effect how much energy is needed and how easily it is broken. But, 30-30 on up should have no real problem breaking the shoulder at reasonable range and with reasonable bullet design.

The problem arises when we try to determine what happens after the shoulder is broken. Penetration, hydrostatic shock, hydraulic shock, blood vessel destruction...all vastly more important than simply breaking the shoulder. Velocity and bullet design does make a difference in this regard. In my experience the more velocity = the more critical the bullet design becomes after breaking a shoulder.
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: Magnum_Willys on May 29, 2016, 05:42:35 PM: I know guys that use .270's and just shoot the shoulder - doesn't blow it up like the magnums they say. They aren't shooting 500+ yards tho....
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: coachcw on May 29, 2016, 08:49:21 PM: I use vlds. They don't break anything just turn lungs to jelly. Use what shoots outta your gun
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: Dan-o on May 29, 2016, 08:56:01 PM: Two years ago, my son shot a cow.

When we cleaned her, we found a solid copper bullet (30 caliber, I guess 180 grain) neatly buried part way into her shoulder. It was healed over.

I found that surprising.

I'd like to know if it was from very long range and just didn't have enough velocity/energy left........?

That is my sample of 1.

But I've shot several elk in the shoulder that were effectively broken down that way...... I don't shoot the shoulder on purpose, but have it too far forward a few times......
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: jdb on May 29, 2016, 09:20:48 PM: I shot a very large old cow last fall at a ranged 200 yards. My first shot hit her square in the shoulder as she stood broadside, I was using a .270 140 grain accubond. She bucked like a horse out of the chute at the shot so I hit her again about 3" from the first shot. Bother bullets were recovered just under the hide on the far side. Both shoulders were completely wrecked, and there was actually lung material protruding for the exit wound.
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: JDHasty on May 29, 2016, 11:14:44 PM: My buddy tracked out and killed a bull elk hit broadside @ 400 yards w/a 270 in the liver and the bullet penetrated 8" before stopping. It had a perfect mushroom and the guy that shot it initially gave up on it.

I shoot a 300 Wby w/180 Nosler Partitions and my buddy shoots the same w/200s. They will penetrate heavy bone and muscle at range after going through the big part and end up under the hide. So with an onside shoulder hit I think any 300 magnum w/Partitions will be good medicine.
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: scoutdog346 on May 30, 2016, 09:21:59 AM: A 243cal i. The smallest gr. will go at least 6" past a shoulder at 150yrds. Don't worry. Back when i hunted with a MF i would go for the double shoulder shot. Drop them in their tracks every time. U might loose it with a lung shot at 300yrd because you're so far away and the bullet is traveling so fast right to the animal it doesn't leave much of a Blood Trail. And ur so far away its hard to see where ut went. Things look a lot different from 300yrd away.
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: grundy53 on May 30, 2016, 12:43:25 PM: Shot my bull last year right through the shoulders. Punched through both shoulders and recovered under the hide on far side. .300 win mag 200 grain Accubond.

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160530%2Fd27b809a801da799534a91a351d29a98.jpg&hash=a6f87d0d85abaf16cd07ccb004224fa0e3d06cab)

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160530%2F7e648aaa4dc64648fb5fe98f887bbca4.jpg&hash=67b1a04f9428cf58fff6b1da215c3df0af6f4b1f)

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160530%2Fedb964b9c026a149daf793b4dd401a95.jpg&hash=c1489935f2545c31cdea7a33bce53703c70b9be1)

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Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: deerslyr on May 30, 2016, 03:31:17 PM: Gotta love when a bullet mushrooms like that grundy..
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: coachcw on May 30, 2016, 04:11:50 PM: Good performance grundy
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: jdb on May 30, 2016, 04:37:07 PM: Coach I know you shoot the vlds, have you ever recovered one?
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: GBoyd on May 30, 2016, 04:41:06 PM: So I'm going to be hunting this year with my .308. My thinking is that it should be fine with elk, but I'll need to determine my max distance based on the speed the bullet will be travelling.

Do you think that anything north of 2000 fps will be acceptable?
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: RadSav on May 30, 2016, 05:04:59 PM: Quote from: GBoyd on May 30, 2016, 04:41:06 PM
Do you think that anything north of 2000 fps will be acceptable?

Depends on bullet and shot placement. We have had very good luck with the .308 on elk. Was my loaner rifle when guiding. Anyone could shoot it well and it never failed.
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: Billy Fudd on May 31, 2016, 05:00:54 PM: I believe in the front shoulder shot for elk. If you get both shoulders they stop in their tracks. I typically hunt general season units on special permit boundaries. Tracking/following blood can be difficult in Western Wa. I shoot a 300 win mag with a barnes bullet. Yes you lose some hamburger meat.
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: Greg Mullins on May 31, 2016, 05:51:30 PM: A spyder turbo a 300 spine FMJ and 125 grain T.
Title: Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
Post by: kevinlisa06 on June 06, 2016, 05:13:47 PM: My first Spike was taken with my 300 win mag using 150 grn Barnes X bullets the shoulder was completely crushed on him. Have never recovered a bullet yet using Barnes bullets.