Post by: Pigfuz on June 01, 2016, 11:18:40 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 01, 2016, 11:51:01 PM
Killing the wet nursing mother doesn't mean all the pups die of starvation, other sub yotes can come into milk. They also wean pretty quickly late april or may.
Post by: Special T on June 02, 2016, 09:47:01 AM
Post by: JODakota on June 02, 2016, 11:04:51 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on June 02, 2016, 11:10:00 AM
Post by: SteelheadTed on June 02, 2016, 01:04:11 PM
The Meat Eater podcast is one of my favorite podcasts and on episode 33 they had Dan Flores on the show. He knows a lot about coyotes and just wrote a book about them that was recently released, Coyote America. That podcast is definitely worth a listen, it was one of the better ones they've done so far.
Post by: Special T on June 02, 2016, 01:12:00 PM
Post by: Gringo31 on June 02, 2016, 01:34:42 PM
It's possible that next year you have increased litters. It's probable that early fall, coyotes looking for new territory will move into your area if you've reduced the population.
There are those that will kill the pups and those that CHOOSE not to. If you are asking about the legality of it, the light is green but the choice is yours. I'll respect your choice either way.
Post by: grundy53 on June 02, 2016, 02:04:50 PM
That's a personal decision, and IMO one best not shared on the internet.
This
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Post by: idahohuntr on June 02, 2016, 02:35:55 PM
Post by: SteelheadTed on June 02, 2016, 02:48:37 PM
I shoot them year round on my place. The last few weeks I've watched several pregnant deer in my food plot - that's what I'm thinking of when I see coyotes hanging around. :dunno:
The data is against you with regard to that helping the deer. Not saying you shouldn't but it likely isn't helping the deer population.
Post by: Special T on June 02, 2016, 03:07:24 PM
I read a couple articles that talked about early fruiting trees/bushes in the south that fruit about the same time fawns dropp..permesian comes to mind.. that would likely help more than incidental shooting of them.
Post by: heronblu on June 02, 2016, 05:17:00 PM
I shoot them year round on my place. The last few weeks I've watched several pregnant deer in my food plot - that's what I'm thinking of when I see coyotes hanging around. :dunno:
The data is against you with regard to that helping the deer. Not saying you shouldn't but it likely isn't helping the deer population.
data also suggests that hunting pressure only succeeds in increasing coyote populations. Ive shot at a few here and there but I'm under no illusion that hunting then does anything but bolster their numbers.
Post by: SteelheadTed on June 02, 2016, 06:26:06 PM
I shoot them year round on my place. The last few weeks I've watched several pregnant deer in my food plot - that's what I'm thinking of when I see coyotes hanging around. :dunno:
The data is against you with regard to that helping the deer. Not saying you shouldn't but it likely isn't helping the deer population.
data also suggests that hunting pressure only succeeds in increasing coyote populations. Ive shot at a few here and there but I'm under no illusion that hunting then does anything but bolster their numbers.
That's what I said...
Post by: JakeLand on June 02, 2016, 07:07:26 PM
Post by: crowinghen on June 05, 2016, 06:01:28 PM
Im pretty sure a kill at this time of year is a temporary fix. Kill a couple and it may help this years crop of deer.
I read a couple articles that talked about early fruiting trees/bushes in the south that fruit about the same time fawns dropp..permesian comes to mind.. that would likely help more than incidental shooting of them.
permesian? persimmon?
Post by: KFhunter on June 05, 2016, 06:29:30 PM
Makes one think that if they shoot a few yotes all the sudden the population explodes.
I did this at my place, now I've got three packs all yapping at one another with me in the middle. See what I get for killing a few yotes :chuckle:
Heard them take a fawn the other night, it's war now
I think one of them bred my Brittany too >:(
Post by: Special T on June 05, 2016, 06:32:05 PM
Ya thatIm pretty sure a kill at this time of year is a temporary fix. Kill a couple and it may help this years crop of deer.
I read a couple articles that talked about early fruiting trees/bushes in the south that fruit about the same time fawns dropp..permesian comes to mind.. that would likely help more than incidental shooting of them.
permesian? persimmon?
Post by: ghosthunter on June 05, 2016, 06:39:37 PM
I don't think it bolsters their numbers. What it does is create a vacuum in the area needing to be filled with new resident coyotes so you hear a lot more vocalizations and get some 'strangers' coming around.
Makes one think that if they shoot a few yotes all the sudden the population explodes.
I did this at my place, now I've got three packs all yapping at one another with me in the middle. See what I get for killing a few yotes :chuckle:
Heard them take a fawn the other night, it's war now
I think one of them bred my Brittany too >:(
Oh no'. The pups are bound to be Democrates. :chuckle:
Post by: Thehowler on June 05, 2016, 08:48:08 PM
Post by: heronblu on June 05, 2016, 09:48:51 PM
I don't think it bolsters their numbers. What it does is create a vacuum in the area needing to be filled with new resident coyotes so you hear a lot more vocalizations and get some 'strangers' coming around.
Makes one think that if they shoot a few yotes all the sudden the population explodes.
I did this at my place, now I've got three packs all yapping at one another with me in the middle. See what I get for killing a few yotes :chuckle:
Heard them take a fawn the other night, it's war now
I think one of them bred my Brittany too >:(
Based on what I have read I do not think you are correct. Again, I have no issue with hunting coyotes, but I think people tend to believe what they want to to justify their actions and feel like they are somehow contributing to a greater good. I hunt coyotes because they have a great pelt, don't taste all that bad, and are a challenge to kill. Here is a quote from one of the many articles on the subject and a link to the article:
"Research by Bob Crabtree and Jennifer Sheldon's in and around Yellowstone National Park documented that coyotes incorporate a paradoxical survival mechanism. When heavily hunted by wolves or humans, the number of pups that survive to adulthood can significantly increase. In an unpressured population, only one or two pups in a six-pup litter will live beyond a few months; however, in pressured populations almost all pups survive. This seems to occur because adult removal leaves more food for the pups, ensuring a high survival rate for the majority of the generation to make it to reproductive maturity, resulting in unprecedented population increase."
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/smallfarms/coyote (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/smallfarms/coyote)
Post by: KFhunter on June 05, 2016, 10:07:15 PM
I don't think it bolsters their numbers. What it does is create a vacuum in the area needing to be filled with new resident coyotes so you hear a lot more vocalizations and get some 'strangers' coming around.
Makes one think that if they shoot a few yotes all the sudden the population explodes.
I did this at my place, now I've got three packs all yapping at one another with me in the middle. See what I get for killing a few yotes :chuckle:
Heard them take a fawn the other night, it's war now
I think one of them bred my Brittany too >:(
Based on what I have read I do not think you are correct. Again, I have no issue with hunting coyotes, but I think people tend to believe what they want to to justify their actions and feel like they are somehow contributing to a greater good. I hunt coyotes because they have a great pelt, don't taste all that bad, and are a challenge to kill. Here is a quote from one of the many articles on the subject and a link to the article:
"Research by Bob Crabtree and Jennifer Sheldon's in and around Yellowstone National Park documented that coyotes incorporate a paradoxical survival mechanism. When heavily hunted by wolves or humans, the number of pups that survive to adulthood can significantly increase. In an unpressured population, only one or two pups in a six-pup litter will live beyond a few months; however, in pressured populations almost all pups survive. This seems to occur because adult removal leaves more food for the pups, ensuring a high survival rate for the majority of the generation to make it to reproductive maturity, resulting in unprecedented population increase."
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/smallfarms/coyote (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/smallfarms/coyote)
meh, nothing to disagree on really. You're talking about a much bigger picture than I'm talking about, a single hunter isn't going to make an impact on the scale you're article is referring too.
If he/she could trap them though....still, it would be difficult to take enough coyotes to effect the food chain -and make bigger litters- survive.
They could upset the local hierarchy though
Post by: jasnt on June 06, 2016, 05:42:40 AM
Post by: bowhunterforever on June 06, 2016, 01:27:15 PM
where I live we have an abundance of predators, they get no brake from me, no off season.:yeah: X2
Post by: Gringo31 on June 06, 2016, 02:04:00 PM
I can't for the life of me see how hunting coyotes makes more coyotes. Granted, if you have a dominant pair in an area, they'll keep the others out. BUT, if you kill the coyotes in that area, YOU keep the coyotes out.
I've said before that I don't think it changes the overall population. BUT....that is looking from Nov-Dec of one year vs Nov-Dec of the next. I feel very strongly that pounding them over the winter will absolutely reduce the number in the area all spring and early summer. I see this as a win for fawns and chicks.
It's true, come fall, new 6 month old pups will move in....possibly some older dogs as well looking for new ground. But, they aren't as smart as the old dominant dogs you removed thus reducing their skill set and effectiveness at hunting in groups etc.
In short, kill em, there will always be more and your own micro-climate will be better temporarily. You will however need to rinse and repeat to make any long lasting impact.
Post by: jasnt on June 06, 2016, 02:18:11 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 06, 2016, 02:27:51 PM
:yeah:That's a personal decision, and IMO one best not shared on the internet.
This
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Post by: Gringo31 on June 06, 2016, 03:01:50 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you and remember that study. I believe the largest litter count was 18 if I remember correctly.
So...let's think this through. If you pound the coyotes, you have reduced the population from say Feb-May 1st? At that point the pups on the ground are from big litters, there is lots of food and many more survivors from bigger litters.
I don't think anyone disagrees with the scenario above. It's one I've seen play out over and over personally.
Now, come fall, these pups are on their own as well as pups from the outside looking to move in as they are looking for territory of their own.
Pups are dumber than adults and make the next season's removal easier.
In the end, you very well may have the same starting point in population! They will be younger which will decrease their chance at survival and you will have given our other wild game a break during their most critical time.
.............................
Granted, shooting one coyote won't do much. For example, last winter on one day in a mile and a half - 2 mile stretch, I counted 15 coyotes. In a 24 hour period, I had killed 12 of them...and that was that. Yes, they will be back, but that population got nuked. Our deer/pheasants live day to day. A 2 week or 2 month rest is quite a gift :twocents:
Post by: Cougartail on June 06, 2016, 03:11:40 PM
There used to be an artical in the archives of predator masters forum that was a study done in Utah if my memory serves me right. At the time the state was trying to wipe the coyotes out. They used every method imagineable to eradicate them. The bio doing the research was a coyote hunter and what he saw was the more they killed the bigger the litters where and the survival rate increased. He recorded litters of over 20 pups in some areas where they had wiped out almost every coyote the season before. His idea was that when the coyote population takes a huge crash the females dropped more eggs and the males more sperm. He thought the survival rate increased due to increased food available. I wish I could find the link that works for it as the one I saved no longer works.
I read that study also. What year round hunting does however is drop the average age of coyotes in the area. This leads to more young dumb ones out there which leads to more on my stretchers in the fall. This in turn keeps numbers of 2nd year (and older) adults low through late winter and spring when deer are most vulnerable to coyotes.
I call that a win-win. Anybody who has hunted coyotes much knows just how hard it is to kill a old veteran coyote. If I get the shot, I take it even in the spring.
Post by: biggfish on June 06, 2016, 03:22:26 PM
Post by: jasnt on June 06, 2016, 05:16:33 PM
Sounds like the real solution is to use sterilization drugs on the females, the vocalization will indicate good pack size but breeding will yield no results. But that's a big stretch in probability.only troubles with that is how do you administer that and get it in enough to do something? Let alone keeping it from causing troubles for other scavengers. And who pays the cost of such.leghold Trapping and hunting can lower populations temporarily as gringo pointed out. As cougarbart said it also lowers avg age which makes it that much better come fall. I personally hunt them year round and no age group gets a pass but as I stated my area needs all the help it can get. I know several people who believe coyotes don't predate on deer much but in my area they do. This spring a doe was killed in my back yard by coyotes and I find fawn legs all summer long.
Post by: grundy53 on June 06, 2016, 05:21:46 PM
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Post by: jasnt on June 06, 2016, 05:29:59 PM
Another possible benefit to having a younger age class is that they are probably more likely to stick to mice and other small animals as opposed to deer.i have read a few study's supporting that aswell
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Post by: KFhunter on June 06, 2016, 05:37:18 PM
Post by: jasnt on June 06, 2016, 05:42:48 PM
Post by: JakeLand on June 07, 2016, 01:12:03 PM
Another reason I hunt year round. Those old dogs are a little less Leary in the summer months, much less pressure in the "off season"Whack and stack 24/7/365
Post by: Bennick16 on June 16, 2016, 09:08:43 PM
where I live we have an abundance of predators, they get no brake from me, no off season.
When I did flight training up in deer park we had a quite a few close calls at dusk with coyotes on the runway. The more you Wack the better!
Post by: jasnt on June 16, 2016, 09:16:38 PM
where I live we have an abundance of predators, they get no brake from me, no off season.
When I did flight training up in deer park we had a quite a few close calls at dusk with coyotes on the runway. The more you Wack the better!
I live about one mile north of the runway
Post by: Fl0und3rz on June 16, 2016, 09:23:27 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_and_moose_on_Isle_Royale