Hunting Washington Forum
Other Hunting => Bird Dogs => Topic started by: NOCK NOCK on July 16, 2016, 06:53:00 AM
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So I have this theory about dog(Lab) growth (body size) and how their environment effects it. I believe they grow to meet their surrounding environment.
My labs always mature with a smaller body size 50-70#. We live in a smaller home, our dogs are inside dwellers, allowed to trounce wherever they want, beds, couch, etc.
Dogs that mostly reside outdoors or in larger homes all seem to be on the larger side 80-100#+
Our yellow had pups several years back, 3 of her pups all live in larger environments and are all larger dogs.
:dunno: :dunno:
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I don't have a large home and my new pup stays in a kennel crate or his 10 x 10 kennel outside. He just turned 11 weeks old and is 29 lbs. The breeder said the larger male pups go from 85 to 95 lbs. The vet seems to think mine is going to be larger. I think food is the key, we got 2 kittens one went to Spokane w one daughter who fed cheap food the other stayed w us we fed taste of the wild food. Our cat is 3 times the size of the one fed cheap food. I'm feeding taste of the wild puppy food to my lab.
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Dogs don't follow the size of the fish tank methodology. Genetics control the size not environment.
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Our pup was that size at that age. 21lb at 8 weeks and 30lb+ at 11weeks. He is 130lb now at 10 months. Not a lab. We buy food at TSC high protein. So ya your dog is charting to be large.
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Dogs don't follow the size of the fish tank methodology. Genetics control the size not environment.
Well all 3 of our current labs are, 68#-10year old, 59#-4yr old, and 48#-11month old.
All of their parents were larger dogs, 80#+. Oldest eats Atta boy, 2nd eats taste of the wild, pup eats everything :chuckle: including the others poop if she gets to it before us.
Genetics definitely play into it, but to say environment has no effect on an animals growth....not too sure about that. :twocents:
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I agree. We did not pick the largest of litter. Fed him venison for a month and he grew an absurd (21lb) amount, Vet asked up to stop for his bones to catch up! Genetics rule the roost but nutrition allows it to run its course. Both play a role. Environment means nothing. A pig will grow big in a pen or a field. Exercise/health maybe a better choice of words?
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I have two littermates and my male is 88lbs and the female is 70lbs. Of course I overfed them a bit :chuckle: As puppies they were the same size.
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There you go, genetics, as mentioned, is the base factor in how big a dog CAN get. Females are genetically usually smaller than males so, given the same food/living conditions, they will be smaller.
Of course, environment will have some effect on the ability of genetics to reach its potential.
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I disagree. If your lab goes to a dog show it is proven it will weight more than those which do not go to a dog show.
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Genetics. You'd have to really really under feed a dog to stunt their growth.
WRL
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After having several litters of boykins, I formed a theory based on annual fact. See, many people were having over sized boykins after they got them. I always asked them, " how much do you feed them?"
" Oh, three cups a day." Now, these boykins were not fat, just large bodied.
Then, as I put fertilizer in my yard one spring, I thought of something. If I feed my grass a little fertilizer, it turns green and and grows at a manageable rate. If I over fertilizer it, it grows way to fast and it is not manageable.
I fed one of my pups 1 cup a day. She stayed at 30 # and is pretty much still there. She's fed 1-1/2 cups a day like all my full grown dogs. I tried this with another pup and she maintained a much more athletic build, though she died before she was a year old from a car accident. The next male we got I did the same. He is at 34 pounds. Very manageable. My cousin fed his one pup three cups a day. It is the size of a small lab.
My theory, they grow as much as you feed them. Once they get fill grown, they will only get fatter.
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Meet Angus at 7 weeks+. Now at 10 months he is 130lbs. Tractor Supply Retriever high protein food, 9-12 cups daily depending on his appetite. Venison burger once in a while. Genetics for sure but animal must have good nutrition to reach potential. I think people get to carried away with these $$ Dog foods. Read labels cause most have what ya need and are not 40$ a bag. Heck they eat poop and dirt and bugs etc...
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Back when I first got my pup I read it is very important to feed large breed puppy food or all age food with lower calcium. I can't think of the percent atm. It was an extensive reasearch study done on goldens. This was so that bones are allowed to grow naturally at a nice slow rate. If I understood correctly too much calcium leads to longer bones than they are meant to have and joint and other issues down the road. I was constantly adjusting my pups food so that I wasn't overfeeding and accidentally giving him more calcium etc than he needed.
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Genetics. You'd have to really really under feed a dog to stunt their growth.
WRL
Amen...I'm a little partial since I have one of your dogs...size just as advertised :tup:
Mike... Cedar's dad
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There you go, genetics, as mentioned, is the base factor in how big a dog CAN get. Females are genetically usually smaller than males so, given the same food/living conditions, they will be smaller.
Of course, environment will have some effect on the ability of genetics to reach its potential.
Agree. Genetics are a big part of it.......but not all of it. ie: a seed from a Fuji apple will not grow into a Fuji producing tree. Offspring are a mix of the parentals, but they also have/develop some of their own characteristics
100% genetics does not explain why my last 5 labs have all turned out smaller than the parents. :dunno:
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There you go, genetics, as mentioned, is the base factor in how big a dog CAN get. Females are genetically usually smaller than males so, given the same food/living conditions, they will be smaller.
Of course, environment will have some effect on the ability of genetics to reach its potential.
Agree. Genetics are a big part of it.......but not all of it. ie: a seed from a Fuji apple will not grow into a Fuji producing tree. Offspring are a mix of the parentals, but they also have/develop some of their own characteristics
100% genetics does not explain why my last 5 labs have all turned out smaller than the parents. :dunno:
I am sorry, but genetically, that is a worthless comparison. Dogs have two sets of chromosomes, apples can have three or even four sets with many copies of genes that may or may not be expressed. Apples will rarely, if ever, breed true, not so for dogs. :twocents:
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yea not the best analogy. :chuckle: but you get my point I think :dunno:
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There's phenomenon in genetics called drag of the race, offspring lean to the average or mediocre of parents each subsequent generation compounds it, however some of the specimens in a litter will lend themselves to the above average. It's a small small percentage most of the time say one pup out of 10. It's the same in horses,cattle,sheep goats and even humans, I myself had 2 grandpa's that were tall, one at 6 foot 4, the other at 6 foot 8 I'm a regular 5 10, but in the next generation of kids theres a 13 year old who is 6 foot 4, there's a 17 year old at 6 2 and their dad is 5 11, consequently there cousins are a 17 year old who is 5 8 from and a 13 year old at 5 foot from a 6 5 father. All those kids eat red meat like great white sharks and live in small houses. It really has zero to do with environment size or feed quality provided they are being fed normally.
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So is evolution genetics driven? or did species convert from water to land or vice/versa as a result of their need to adapt to the changing environment?
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Yes evolution was the process of selective breeding by nature over the course of millions of years. If you took the smallest pups from a litter and bred them and then took the smallest pup and bred to another small pup and then did it again you'd essentially be replicating what you are talking about. Environment effected evolution by killing those that were not able to adapt, i.e. wolves with a thin coat didn't propogate their genes because they died in the cold winters. It wasn't that the wolves with the genetics for thin coats evolved and started to grow thicker coats it's simply that the stronger more adapted wolves bred more and survived more.
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Evolution happens over a few million years not a few litters
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First you have to believe in evolution.
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Evolution is a result of natural selection. The fittest survive and pass their superior genetics to the next generation. Dogs are bred due to our selections in the traits we want to see shown in the next generation. Wolves are a product of evolution and are still evolving. Labs are creation of man selective breeding animals of a certain size, coat, build, and personality that were wanted for a retriever. Evolution takes millions of years, selective breeding to obtain an animal the size, build you want just a few litters. New breeds can be created in a few decades like the Dogo Argentino, that are created to fill specific wants.
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First you have to believe in evolution.
Lol
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If you want to look at how genetics and highly selective breeding can lead to consistent results, look at English Pointers from trial lines. There is no other breed of bird dog that throws as consistent a set of traits and it's largely thanks to extensive line breeding and inbreeding in the breed.
Labs, setters, shorthairs, etc...they are all over the map because as breeds they have never had the degree of selectivity applied in breeding them that Pointers have in this country.
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It's all about genetics, however the combination of both parents isn't necessarily going to produce pups exactly their size. A lot of breeders want size in their male, but he might be the exception to the other males produced by the same parents. It doesn't mean his pups are going to be bigger. Have you found out how much all your dogs siblings weigh?
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If you know more than the neighbors dogs brother and know the sire and dams siblings, what they have produced and followed other breedings in the line you will have a pretty good idea. If you breed a dog because you've seen them hunt once or, they do something impressive to you, you wont predict much accurately.
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Vet shot visit yesterday my 18 week old male lab weighted in at 52 lbs. A male litter mate weighted in at 33 lbs the same day. Mine spends most of his time in his kennel. He is in great shape I work him and walk him everyday, I feed his Taste of the wild.
