Post by: northwesthunter84 on August 30, 2016, 08:47:11 PM
Bow 2016 Elite Impulse 31
Draw 75# / 30"
300 arrows through it.
Arrows Easton fmj 300/ 125 grain tips
29.5"/ 571 grain finish weight blazers with nocturnals and brass inserts.
Issue1- Sight is max left and still have left impact specifically with broadhead.
2nd and 3rd axis set with bright site jig bubbles all good. Arrows are grouping just extremely left by 6 inches. Verticals remains good
Issue2- Arrows are knuckling with broadheads, with no visible contact. HDx at 13/16" with visible clearance on riser and cables.
Overhead view shows weird alignment, shooting open hand low grip so little to know torque. Bow was shooting bullet holes out the gate.
Things I have tried with no change.
Rotating the cable guard from 6 to 3 position and test firing in between at 5 and 4.
Adjusting rest slightly had a small change repeatable by 1" back right or left depending on adjustment direction.
Rechecked 2nd and 3rd axis on sight with little or no change in settings required.
Also checked nock pinch, none apparent.
On going battle for 3 weeks now.
Pics are where I am at now.
Any ideas, need shims or limbs torqued? These are options I have come across in searches.
Any ideas appreciated.thank you in advance.
Post by: DVET253 on August 31, 2016, 06:50:53 AM
First off let me apologize up front as I can get long winded, secondly by no means am I a guru tuner but would like to help as best as I can to help narrow down and or help solve your issues. I welcome correction from any other HuntWA members as I know there are others here with superior knowledge.
Some issues that come to mind here are:
Underspined:
Based on the numbers you've provided the setup on my OnTarget2 software shows that you're underspined, using any of the programs filters (target, hunting, & both). But first a few more questions to further clarify, are you running the HIT brass inserts and if so are you running them at 50gr. or 75gr.?
Secondly, Is that arrow length measurement of 29.5" from nock groove to end of shaft or raw shaft length? I ask because although OT2 is showing "weak" it’s not by much and even the smallest details, arrow length, insert weight, might be enough to show off or on "ideal spine.” When I plugged your info in, I built the arrow to get as close to your stated total arrow weight of 571gr. using the nocturnal x nocks @20gr and the HIT brass @ 50gr.
Disclaimer: I understand archery programs are not a solid “go-to” to determine how your in particular bow will perform but merely an aid to getting the ideal setup. With that said it doesn't mean that if the bow is all good setup wise (nock height, cam lean, cam sync etc…) that you could not effectively and accurately shoot an arrow that shows a little on the weak side.
My personal experience with FMJ’s is that they, for me, tend to be very sensitive to the “ideal spine”. I’ve had bows that max at 70lbs. and coupled with my draw length (30-30.5”) I’ve had to, after all possible tuning corrections, back the DW off a pound or two and it brought the BH and FP groups together (I BH and FP tune @ 40yds).
Cam lean:
This could also be an issue affecting your horizontal impact. If you have the means to check cam lean at full draw by using a draw board, I would recommend checking that. If any or both cams have lean at full draw this could cause impact issues as well. If any are off, you're looking at a possible re-shim to align, and as fun as it is to perform your own bow tuning, being that it is a new bow, I’d recommend having a reputable Elite dealer perform such work (wouldn’t want the possibility of the warranty to be voided).
Centershot:
Although the HDx shows that the rest is at 13/16”, have you verified by measurement from inside of riser from berger holes to the centerline of the shaft? Not questioning the quality of QAD, but somethings I consider are what bow was that rest built around, is there the possibility of a difference between your Impulse 31’s riser thickness that might not accurately reflect the HDx’s centershot markings??? Based off the picture from “above” it looks and though the rest is set a little right.
Nock Point:
I personally don’t feel that this is an issue here. Stating that you are only experiencing horizontal impact issues and that your vertical impact is ok, it would appear that your nock point is ok. As you're not witnessing vertical issues, it tells me the you're getting level “vertical” nock travel which is not causing porpoising of the arrow.
2nd & 3rd Axis:
Although important, again I don’t feel this could be the main issue. However, I am curious as to how exactly you've set this. Do you have the bench mounted leveler from Brite Site, or the riser/string mounted versions?
Again this is just my personal preference, but when I set my 2nd and 3rd axis, I use the riser mounted level with my bow in my bow vise. Once I have a level bubble indicated off the riser (string level also shows vertical and horizontal level) I then set the 2nd axis bubble. Once set, i rotate the bow downward (forward) and recheck the riser and string bubbles before adjusting the 3rd axis.
In summation I would check/verify the easiest (cost wise) first, Cam lean & Centershot then look at arrow spine.
DVET253
Post by: JKEEN33 on August 31, 2016, 07:44:08 AM
Update:
I looked at your other picture and you can deffinately move the spacer. move the circled spacer to the right. It will now be between the sight and the mount.
Post by: BUTTER on August 31, 2016, 08:02:02 AM
Post by: JKEEN33 on August 31, 2016, 08:09:26 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 31, 2016, 08:09:33 AM
Hard to see in your picture, but it looks like you need to move your spacer. This will move your sight further left and give you additional adjustment the direction you need to move.yep,that should get you hitting the target but things still seem off center.
Update:
I looked at your other picture and you can deffinately move the spacer. move the circled spacer to the right. It will now be between the sight and the mount.
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 31, 2016, 08:12:59 AM
Post by: JKEEN33 on August 31, 2016, 08:23:10 AM
Hard to see in your picture, but it looks like you need to move your spacer. This will move your sight further left and give you additional adjustment the direction you need to move.yep,that should get you hitting the target but things still seem off center.
Update:
I looked at your other picture and you can deffinately move the spacer. move the circled spacer to the right. It will now be between the sight and the mount.
Yes, reading closer and looking at the pics again, there is more to this. First pic looks like arrow is to the far right in the site. How did you adjust the axis? Like to help more, but heading out myself to set up camp.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 31, 2016, 08:43:24 AM
Post by: DaveMonti on August 31, 2016, 09:52:24 AM
Post by: northwesthunter84 on August 31, 2016, 11:32:28 AM
I can switch the spacer for the desired result just seems weird that the difference in angles from at rest to POI. Most tests are at 50 yards. .
As far as spine is concerned my only option is to try and shoot 100's, 300 spine in the fmj's is the final before going even stiffer with the dangerous game.
Broadheads group but 5" left of field points. Broadheads are Shuttle T's 125 gr.
I used a similar method to walk back tuning with single arrow, and shooting in groups of targets IE 10-20-30,adjust; 20-30-40, adjust; 30-40-50, adjust (with field points) broadhead issues started and sight adjustment seemed excessive so I have not done that with them.
HIIT brass inserts are at 50 gr. Arrow length is from nock groove to end of shaft. I already backed draw weight off from 82-75#'s.
I may pick up some 100's and test them, probably going to hunt with my Z7 again this year unless I have a major breakthrough.
Thank you all for the help.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 31, 2016, 11:37:56 AM
Post by: DVET253 on August 31, 2016, 11:57:05 AM
Try 100 grainers and possibly drop draw weight more. I think you would actually be better off with the 250 spine dangerous game arrows. I'm still saying spine more than anything else. High draw weight and long draw equals need for stiff arrows. Good luck:yeah: SOOOO true! Currently working with my buddy who's a 33" draw and shooting 70lbs, we're about one step shy of cutting raw timber and glueing points and vanes on for his arrows..... :chuckle: :chuckle:
You could try the DG FMJ's however you will be up over 700gr total arrow weight with the DG .250 which IIRC is 17.7 GPI and thats just using the standard HIT insert. Heavy arrow....Yes, but you'd have one hell of a trajectory.
You can also try the Axis in the .260 which is 11.5GPI and still remain around the same total arrow weight. Which when using the standard 16gr HIT insert & 125gr point/BH gives you 10.6% FOC, approx. 290FPS, and according to your setup on OT2, is money using the "hunting" filter on the spine matching tab weighing in at approx 518gr total arrow weight.
Or with 125's and 50gr HIT brass: 13% FOC, approx. 281FPS, total arrow weight ~ 552gr and is still within limits.
P.S. Yeah I'm a little biased with Easton's, just out of lack of experience with other branded arrows! :sry:
Post by: demontang on August 31, 2016, 12:31:52 PM
Post by: Jellymon on August 31, 2016, 12:49:02 PM
Post by: CallMeBigPapa on August 31, 2016, 01:02:45 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on August 31, 2016, 01:44:36 PM
I'm saying under spined as well. Do the broadheads group with the field tips? What broadheads?
Definitely under spined.
I would decrease poundage and see what happens..
Post by: northwesthunter84 on August 31, 2016, 03:24:22 PM
Definitely right eye dominant, been shooting for 27 yrs.
Paper tuning was perfect bullet hole, cable slide was at the 6 position, was checking cam lean so that's why it is a 3 postion. Really just max vs. min vane clearance, with plenty of discussion on Archery talk about this as fix to minor cam lean issues, to Jelly you don't necessarily want min. clearance on the cables.
I agree with the spine issue as the likely culprit, if that's not it, might be a manufacturing issue. That was also noted on this series of bows but I will be going with the low hanging fruit.
Also as a side note I shoot 29 1/2" 340's for my 70# Mathews and they shoot straight with everything broadhead and field point. But I have a little less on the front end by 34 grains. Aluminum vs brass insert. Kind of funny that 5#'s and 34 grains put me through the .300 spines. Also Easton's chart puts me right in the middle of 300 series or between .280 and .320 for arrows.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 31, 2016, 03:32:11 PM
Post by: northwesthunter84 on August 31, 2016, 07:13:36 PM
Sean
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 31, 2016, 09:14:43 PM
Post by: coachcw on September 02, 2016, 06:43:44 AM
Post by: blmathis12 on September 11, 2016, 11:23:18 AM