Post by: Moose Master on September 17, 2016, 06:58:05 AM
Post by: Moose Master on September 17, 2016, 07:10:53 AM
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2016, 09:10:58 AM
195 grain bullets out of a muzzleloader seem awful light, especially for elk.
:twocents:
Post by: boneaddict on September 17, 2016, 09:13:51 AM
Post by: jjhunter on September 17, 2016, 09:18:37 AM
Don't worry about how much powder you are shoving down the tube. I'd start with 90 grains/loose and look for accuracy.
Post by: cougforester on September 17, 2016, 09:20:57 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on September 17, 2016, 11:30:07 AM
Chasing Mr. bull and looking for comments whether to shot 195 or 225 in my knight. Plan on not reaching out beyond 100 yds. Also looking for broad side not necessarily a frontal shot. Not being picky and will shot a first legal bull that's within range. Good luck to all and aim small for this season.
I really would suggest for elk that you bump that bullet weight up a bunch! I just wrote this as an answer to about the same question for another member...
You do not mention which model of Knight you might be shooting - but I really do not think it will make a difference...
OK the information that I am going to share with you is just my personal preferences and I am totally biased - please remember that as you read through this....
Another thing I am not a fan of pointy bullets in a ML @ normal ML ranges. I much prefer a blunt type nose or hollow point.
In general I would recommend the Knight .458x300 grain Bloodline (built by Lehigh)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FCompositeBloodline.jpg&hash=f0771c8199c9548be7959c5a8dda18f2766ba1ed)
Here is some reading information
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBloodlineBullets.png&hash=9b21d28da321776fcfe678eb258dd5d93e070499)
As an alternative - Lehigh Defense builds a 45-70 rifle bullet - the .458x305 gr. 45-70 Gov.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2F458-305.jpg&hash=ed23af00ee24ea555cd266b7bac7ff6ebbfd8e22)
This is an awesome bullet in itself - but it is a long bullet designed for a 1-20 twit rifle. For you to shoot correctly from a 1/28 twist ML - you would need to shoot it with a lot of velocity - using 110-120 grains of either T7-2f powder.
Another thing that will seem odd - but because this bullet is a centerfire rifle bullet it is built to much tighter specs than a ML bullet. The bullet can sometime SLIP inside a Orange MMP 458/458x50 sabot. If you look at the bullet there is no knurling on the bullet to grip the sabot. I would suggest you use a MMP Black HPH-24 sabot to get the grip on the bore and the bullet so no slippage in the bore occurs.
mike
Post by: usmc74 on September 17, 2016, 11:43:25 AM
AWESOME mushroom from that bullet. (there are lots of pix of mushroomed Barnes bullets on the internet)
Post by: Moose Master on September 19, 2016, 06:08:36 AM
Post by: floatinghat on September 19, 2016, 07:51:31 AM
This is timely as I look for my Elk load for my .52cal. At the range .458 Hornady 350gr round nose Interbond group well at 100yd (3MOA ish with my peep) I was considering using them but am not sure of the expansion I'll get at the terminal velocity. I have Bloodline 300 and 275 gr that I have used in my Disk 50 cal to take deer and elk. But I was looking at the KE of the Bloodlines down range and it pretty light (knight recommended loads). Does the structure of the bullet make up for the lower KE. I always lived by the close to 1,500 ftlb at the target, pretty much can't get there with the Bloodlines.
The Red Hot 375's also shoot well but Knight is smoking crack at $38 for 18, plus their shipping charges. If they wanted .52 to sell just make it a little more reasonable. I haven't been able to find this bullet or something close direct from Barnes, guessing it's an expander or something in the 45/70 line.
I know I am stuck with the Knight sabot and either a .458 or .475 now, unless I go to full conicals. I have some concials but the way they load after the crown I don't feel like I get a good gas seal. I am new to conicals so I don't know how they should feel loading?
To the OP be picky on your shot so you don't lose an animal, get a good load with a heavier bullet.
Post by: Sabotloader on September 19, 2016, 05:05:07 PM
Sabot,
This is timely as I look for my Elk load for my .52cal. At the range .458 Hornady 350gr round nose Interbond group well at 100yd (3MOA ish with my peep) I was considering using them but am not sure of the expansion I'll get at the terminal velocity. I have Bloodline 300 and 275 gr that I have used in my Disk 50 cal to take deer and elk. But I was looking at the KE of the Bloodlines down range and it pretty light (knight recommended loads). Does the structure of the bullet make up for the lower KE. I always lived by the close to 1,500 ftlb at the target, pretty much can't get there with the Bloodlines.
Again these are just my thoughts certainly does not make them the 'rule'. Your thoughts of down range energy of 1500 pounds is an awesome number and rule a good rule to work by, 1500 pounds of energy with about any bullet should get the job done! It is my thought that with a ML that energy at extended ranges will be very hard to achieve. As you know energy is achieved with the combination of the velocity and weight of the bullet. With a ML we are so limited by the amount of powder and pressure that we can safely use. I personally think the 1500 pound of energy is not the low end of the spectrum.
As an example I will post a couple of ballistic sheets computed from the velocities that I have collected shooting across my chrono...
This first sheet is an example of a heavy lead conical bullet. The bullet is .503x460 grain Bull Shop and the powder load was 90 grains of T7 which by most standards is to much for a lead conical of this weight.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBallistic%2520Sheets%2F90460MTNEx.jpg&hash=bb24503b1986317019174bff6f94f9fabc18ba78) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Ballistic%20Sheets/90460MTNEx.jpg.html)
If you look at the 200 yard energy computation is 1200+ ft.Lbs. I will tell you many people have used this bullet and have harvested elk at longer ranges than 200... Using the load I used will create near 1500 FPS up the bore - problem - leading it is going to happen.
If you look at these two sheets you can see with the load and the velocity I am creating - I am getting greater energy than the 40 with a much lighter bullet. And the plus of all of this - it is my belief and experience these two bullets have a much higher Terminal Performance than does the suggested lead conical. There is not no doubt given bullet placement all three bullets are going to harvest. The plus margin is the Lehighs/bloodlines are going to create a bigger wound channel with the petals and also have same effect of big conical when the core, after losing its petals, of the bullet continues on through the animal as the big conical does.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBallistic%2520Sheets%2FLehigh275-300Comp.jpg&hash=c8622f14e22a9cc11405aca321417f477e5f37db) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Ballistic%20Sheets/Lehigh275-300Comp.jpg.html)
I am confident of 950 to 1000 pounds of energy... unfortunately at this level the big lead conical because of the soft lead really has a great chance of working, while the Brass Lehigh/Bloodlines will operate down to a velocity of about 1200 fps.
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The Red Hot 375's also shoot well but Knight is smoking crack at $38 for 18, plus their shipping charges. If they wanted .52 to sell just make it a little more reasonable. I haven't been able to find this bullet or something close direct from Barnes, guessing it's an expander or something in the 45/70 line.
I believe you are correct in the Expander thought...
Quote
I know I am stuck with the Knight sabot and either a .458 or .475 now, unless I go to full conicals. I have some concials but the way they load after the crown I don't feel like I get a good gas seal. I am new to conicals so I don't know how they should feel loading?
I would suggest you load a shot card/veggie wad under the lead conical to act as a gas check... Personally I am using a MMP Sub-base as the gas check.
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To the OP be picky on your shot so you don't lose an animal, get a good load with a heavier bullet.
Or shoot it with a lot more velocity than can be safely achieved in a ML...
Hope some of this information is useable.... mike
Post by: dscubame on September 19, 2016, 08:36:43 PM
I'd shoot the bigger bullets and I wouldn't jump to more powder without shooting it first. I'd also suggest trying loose powder. Work up a load that shoots best in your rifle. I think there are a lot of folks that shoot ~100 grains of loose powder for that reason. It gives you the ability to fine tune your load and it burns a lot more efficiently than pellets.
195 grain bullets out of a muzzleloader seem awful light, especially for elk.
:twocents:
Everything Jackelope said.
Post by: floatinghat on September 20, 2016, 06:09:57 AM