Post by: grundy53 on September 28, 2016, 06:18:18 PM
Here is a link
http://www.themeateater.com/podcasts/episode-042-seattle-washington-steven-rinella-talks-with-wildlife-biologist-bart-george-along-with-ryan-callaghan-land-tawney-and-meateaters-janis-putelis/
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Post by: Special T on September 28, 2016, 06:23:53 PM
Post by: Dan-o on September 28, 2016, 07:11:45 PM
Post by: dscubame on September 28, 2016, 07:35:08 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on September 28, 2016, 07:47:56 PM
Thanks for the link, and I will listen to the podcast.
Post by: grundy53 on September 28, 2016, 08:10:52 PM
Don't mean to sound like a &^@* but WDFW has much better options to spend their dime on. Not that they choose to do so by any means. Although there has been mtn caribou there before, I've seen no sign and know some pretty knowledgable guys there that agree. However, gtizz sign is all over. My limited time in the area is far from many, but I feel it's best to leave a lost cause alone. :twocents:I understand. I pretty much thought the same thing. Until I listened to the podcast.
Thanks for the link, and I will listen to the podcast.
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Post by: tjthebest on September 28, 2016, 08:14:05 PM
Don't mean to sound like a &^@* but WDFW has much better options to spend their dime on. Not that they choose to do so by any means. Although there has been mtn caribou there before, I've seen no sign and know some pretty knowledgable guys there that agree. However, grizz sign is all over. My limited time in the area is far from many, but I feel it's best to leave a lost cause alone. :twocents:
Thanks for the link, and I will listen to the podcast.
There are only 12. That's why you haven't seen any.
Post by: jackelope on September 28, 2016, 08:20:54 PM
Don't mean to sound like a &^@* but WDFW has much better options to spend their dime on. Not that they choose to do so by any means. Although there has been mtn caribou there before, I've seen no sign and know some pretty knowledgable guys there that agree. However, grizz sign is all over. My limited time in the area is far from many, but I feel it's best to leave a lost cause alone. :twocents:
Thanks for the link, and I will listen to the podcast.
I have pictures of them.
:dunno:
Post by: MtnMuley on September 28, 2016, 08:30:12 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on September 28, 2016, 09:22:42 PM
Post by: denali on September 28, 2016, 09:52:03 PM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on September 28, 2016, 10:01:58 PM
Post by: bracer40 on September 28, 2016, 10:38:28 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on September 29, 2016, 06:16:07 AM
Very good discussion, definitely worth investing in. They are a native species, we can't just let them go extinct.
That's the way I feel about it too. The herd uses the border and spends some time in the US. If it goes away there will never be any hope of caribou in the lower 48.
Sometimes you have to do things because it's the right thing to do, despite it being really difficult
Post by: grundy53 on September 29, 2016, 06:20:17 AM
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Post by: kellama2001 on September 29, 2016, 07:22:03 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on September 29, 2016, 07:48:01 AM
Post by: superdown on September 29, 2016, 08:07:18 AM
Post by: 7mmfan on September 29, 2016, 08:22:50 AM
Just playing devils advocate here but how many saying we need to invest in this native species also thinks we need to wipe out every wolf and griz in the state? All native species. For the record, I say wipe out all the griz and wolves :chuckle:
Canadian Gray Wolves are not native to Washington State. Its not proven that they were released here but migrated naturally, that still doesn't make them native. The Caribou are actually native and deserve to be protected from the non-native wolves that prey on them. Griz are actually native as well, and as scary as they are, I'm glad to have a few of them back. They are awesome animals. Shoot the wolves.
Post by: bobcat on September 29, 2016, 08:41:29 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on September 29, 2016, 08:50:23 AM
I'll have to listen to the podcast at some point but it probably isn't going to change my mind. I'd rather not have money wasted on caribou in Washington. Someone said we can't have them go "extinct." That's not the issue. They won't be extinct, there just may not be any on the Washington side of the Canadian border. So what? Why do we need to have them? If they're going to be there, then fine, protect them, obviously don't hunt them, and don't destroy their habitat, but I see no need to spend a ton of taxpayer money on trying to "save" them.agreed. And more importantly my license dollars. Just another reason we need a game department not a wild life department. And yeah, shoot the wolves. Until we address the elephant in the room (predators) I see zero reason to waste time on stuff like this.
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on September 29, 2016, 08:55:14 AM
I'll have to listen to the podcast at some point but it probably isn't going to change my mind. I'd rather not have money wasted on caribou in Washington. Someone said we can't have them go "extinct." That's not the issue. They won't be extinct, there just may not be any on the Washington side of the Canadian border. So what? Why do we need to have them? If they're going to be there, then fine, protect them, obviously don't hunt them, and don't destroy their habitat, but I see no need to spend a ton of taxpayer money on trying to "save" them.
Listen to the podcast I think your position would change. There isnt a lot of money being spent on them. One of the biggest proponents is the tribe. The population is low in other areas as well, so actually rebuilding the herd here is becoming more and more difficult. If they can, then they can be used to help out the other herds north of the border.
What if our ancestors had said the same thing about elk? We wouldn't be enjoying the populations we have today if they had just given up on them and not saved the species.
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on September 29, 2016, 08:58:44 AM
Post by: bobcat on September 29, 2016, 08:59:02 AM
Post by: bobcat on September 29, 2016, 09:05:13 AM
Post by: jackelope on September 29, 2016, 09:05:39 AM
so by some people logic on here, if moose, elk, deer populations took a huge dive and we had very few here in WA we should just say screw it and give up. sound logic there. moose used to be pretty dismal here and no one here is complaining that fish and wildlife spent some of your money assisting bringing them back also look at wild turkeys across the nation :dunno:
Moose populations are taking a huge hit from the wolves.
I'll have to listen to the podcast at some point but it probably isn't going to change my mind. I'd rather not have money wasted on caribou in Washington. Someone said we can't have them go "extinct." That's not the issue. They won't be extinct, there just may not be any on the Washington side of the Canadian border. So what? Why do we need to have them? If they're going to be there, then fine, protect them, obviously don't hunt them, and don't destroy their habitat, but I see no need to spend a ton of taxpayer money on trying to "save" them.
Listen to the podcast I think your position would change. There isnt a lot of money being spent on them. One of the biggest proponents is the tribe. The population is low in other areas as well, so actually rebuilding the herd here is becoming more and more difficult. If they can, then they can be used to help out the other herds north of the border.
What if our ancestors had said the same thing about elk? We wouldn't be enjoying the populations we have today if they had just given up on them and not saved the species.
Pretty sure the majority of effort to save the caribou is coming from the Kalispell tribe. Maybe @WAcoyotehunter can clarify that.
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on September 29, 2016, 09:08:03 AM
so by some people logic on here, if moose, elk, deer populations took a huge dive and we had very few here in WA we should just say screw it and give up. sound logic there. moose used to be pretty dismal here and no one here is complaining that fish and wildlife spent some of your money assisting bringing them back also look at wild turkeys across the nation :dunno:
Moose populations are taking a huge hit from the wolves.
exactly, so if they get down to dismal numbers we will see how many people here want to just let them go, they wont be extinct in other places right? lol
Post by: bobcat on September 29, 2016, 09:09:34 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on September 29, 2016, 09:21:01 AM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on September 29, 2016, 09:24:58 AM
As hunters we should be leading the push to save species like this, not for the sake of potentially getting to hunt them, but because its the right thing to do. I think the biggest reward would be to just see them in the wild, but that could even be a long shot. There are other species that are not in as much danger of disappearing receiving way more help, the money is out there, whether private or public, and some funds could be diverted.
I know a lot of guys on this forum love the bighorn sheep, what if no effort had been made to save them? They were in pretty rough shape in the early 20th century, now look what we have!
Post by: bobcat on September 29, 2016, 09:30:15 AM
And they were all over eastern Washington until we came and destroyed much of their habitat with our farms, and domestic livestock, orchards, housing developments, etc.
Caribou were never abundant and widespread over the state like bighorn sheep were.
Post by: Special T on September 29, 2016, 09:34:39 AM
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on September 29, 2016, 09:36:12 AM
Bighorn sheep are different. This state, and probably all of the western states, historically had bighorn sheep in large numbers.
And they were all over eastern Washington until we came and destroyed much of their habitat with our farms, and domestic livestock, orchards, housing developments, etc.
Caribou were never abundant and widespread over the state like bighorn sheep were.
so how much of the state historically, does a species need to range to receive some assistance (time and money) in your opinion?
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on September 29, 2016, 09:39:21 AM
Bighorn sheep are different. This state, and probably all of the western states, historically had bighorn sheep in large numbers.
And they were all over eastern Washington until we came and destroyed much of their habitat with our farms, and domestic livestock, orchards, housing developments, etc.
Caribou were never abundant and widespread over the state like bighorn sheep were.
Well if you listen to the podcast, you will find they had a pretty large area in the northern portion of the states, from Washington to Montana, with reports as far south as the St. Joe here in Idaho. That's a pretty large area.
Post by: bobcat on September 29, 2016, 09:41:43 AM
Bighorn sheep are different. This state, and probably all of the western states, historically had bighorn sheep in large numbers.
And they were all over eastern Washington until we came and destroyed much of their habitat with our farms, and domestic livestock, orchards, housing developments, etc.
Caribou were never abundant and widespread over the state like bighorn sheep were.
Well if you listen to the podcast, you will find they had a pretty large area in the northern portion of the states, from Washington to Montana, with reports as far south as the St. Joe here in Idaho. That's a pretty large area.
Okay, I will when I get a chance. But if that's the case, what's it take to bring them back? I'd guess burning down much of the forest and killing all the wolves?
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on September 29, 2016, 09:51:11 AM
Heck no, well, the wolves do need to be put in check, but not burning the forests. He talks a bit about the history of them and how changes in the ecosystem (habitat and predators) have affected the herd. They are actually quite a tough animal, they live above the snow line during the winters and thrive in old growth forests and eat tree moss. They need to borrow some from the Canadian herds and get them breeding. Ideally they would create a secure pen, 10 acres, up high where they live and give the calves a chance to grow up a bit before releasing them. It is really a very informative listen. The bio knows his stuff and is a cougar hunter in the Panhandle as well.Bighorn sheep are different. This state, and probably all of the western states, historically had bighorn sheep in large numbers.
And they were all over eastern Washington until we came and destroyed much of their habitat with our farms, and domestic livestock, orchards, housing developments, etc.
Caribou were never abundant and widespread over the state like bighorn sheep were.
Well if you listen to the podcast, you will find they had a pretty large area in the northern portion of the states, from Washington to Montana, with reports as far south as the St. Joe here in Idaho. That's a pretty large area.
Okay, I will when I get a chance. But if that's the case, what's it take to bring them back? I'd guess burning down much of the forest and killing all the wolves?
Post by: boneaddict on September 29, 2016, 10:00:34 AM
I'm happy to have known the caribou and the country they exist in. Too many wolves now. Heck they don't even have signs on the trail heads anymore.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on September 29, 2016, 10:08:21 AM
Canadian Gray Wolves are not native to Washington State. Its not proven that they were released here but migrated naturally, that still doesn't make them native. The Caribou are actually native and deserve to be protected from the non-native wolves that prey on them. Griz are actually native as well, and as scary as they are, I'm glad to have a few of them back. They are awesome animals. Shoot the wolves.
Caribou migrated here from Canada same as the wolves. More of them live in Canada where the same wolves are more established.
I don't see the point in spending money to try to "save" a few animals at the fringe edge of their habitat.
Post by: Jonathan_S on September 29, 2016, 10:16:38 AM
If there were only 15 grizzly left in the entire US, or 15 bighorn sheep left think of the uproar. There would be multiple state, local and federal agencies moving heaven and earth to save them.
Let's just eradicate the Columbian White tailed Deer since there are so few.
Post by: dwils233 on September 29, 2016, 10:17:41 AM
As far as their historic numbers, Apparently they used to be healthy enough that Teddy Roosevelt went on a hunt for the herd out of Priest Lake, so they have had a footprint in the states before. If we took a dismissive attitude about all our extirpated animals I think most of us wouldn't be hunting today. Most of our current game species had to be saved from dangerously low numbers.
I think it's one of the best podcasts Rinella has done yet, especially for washingtonians. The biologist is a smart guy, I would love to pick his brain. Definitely worth everyone's time to listen
Post by: boneaddict on September 29, 2016, 10:18:41 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on September 29, 2016, 10:22:43 AM
Another wolf was collared last week at Salmo pass and will be used as a Judas animal to locate that pack. So far ~21 have been removed.
Post by: Jonathan_S on September 29, 2016, 10:28:50 AM
The biologist is a smart guy, I would love to pick his brain. Definitely worth everyone's time to listen
:peep:
Post by: Jonathan_S on September 29, 2016, 10:50:03 AM
Post by: JLS on September 29, 2016, 11:14:09 AM
Many of our elk herds are actually not native and didn't exist in certain areas until we decided to bring them here on a train from Yellowstone. Yes, elk on the east side of the Cascades are an invasive species. :tup:
https://www.fws.gov/refuge/Cold_Springs/Wildlife_Habitat/Elk.html
Quote
Rocky Mountain elk are native to the Columbia Basin; the elk on Cold Springs National Wildlife Refuge are Rocky Mountain elk..
Prior to the 1800s, elk lived in every state and province except Alaska and Florida. Today, their range has been reduced to 24 states and seven provinces
Post by: JLS on September 29, 2016, 11:18:56 AM
Quote
As settlements grew, so did the hunting pressure. By the turn of the
century, big game numbers had dwindled alarmingly. By 1909, elk were so
scarce that the Oregon State Legislature put a ban on hunting elk that lasted until
1932 (Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife 1992). In 1912 and 1913, 30
elk from Jackson Hole, Wyoming, were brought in to supplement the herd
(Bailey 1936). These elk were placed in a protective enclosure known as “Billy
Meadows” on the Imnaha National Forest where they thrived and grew in
number.
Post by: dwils233 on September 29, 2016, 11:33:18 AM
Dwils, maybe post a question you have for the biologist and somebody who thinks like him will answer your question :chuckle:
my main questions are:
1. What other agencies (public/private/education) are interested in working with the tribe/ how active or aggresive is the tribe in finding new partner agencies or institutions?
2. From a wildlife management perspective, what does the wdfw need to do in order to protect the extant population?
3. Does the tribe (and other stakeholders) have a long-term management plan prepared? is it available to read?
4. What can the general public do to help at this point?
and finally
5. would he consider a "ride along" volunteer when he does a herd visit? :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on September 29, 2016, 12:03:43 PM
Dwils, maybe post a question you have for the biologist and somebody who thinks like him will answer your question :chuckle:
This is an extremely likely scenario. Go for it. You might like the outcome. Lots of solid thinkers here.
Post by: jackelope on September 29, 2016, 12:08:19 PM
Dwils, maybe post a question you have for the biologist and somebody who thinks like him will answer your question :chuckle:
my main questions are:
1. What other agencies (public/private/education) are interested in working with the tribe/ how active or aggresive is the tribe in finding new partner agencies or institutions?
2. From a wildlife management perspective, what does the wdfw need to do in order to protect the extant population?
3. Does the tribe (and other stakeholders) have a long-term management plan prepared? is it available to read?
4. What can the general public do to help at this point?
and finally
5. would he consider a "ride along" volunteer when he does a herd visit? :chuckle:
WDFW is not involved in this project as far as I've heard. I think there was something eluded to in this regard earlier in the thread.
I've heard they were trying to boost the herd with animals from an outside source to eliminate genetic screw ups through inbreeding. I've also heard some maternal penning was on the table in order to better ensure survival of the newborns. Haven't heard in a while if any of this was going to be able to happen.
Post by: dwils233 on September 29, 2016, 12:31:01 PM
WDFW is not involved in this project as far as I've heard. I think there was something eluded to in this regard earlier in the thread.
I've heard they were trying to boost the herd with animals from an outside source to eliminate genetic screw ups through inbreeding. I've also heard some maternal penning was on the table in order to better ensure survival of the newborns. Haven't heard in a while if any of this was going to be able to happen.
That was what I meant about the WDFW, I gather they are not involved, but in some capacity they should be (predator management authorization for example). I'm curious what a wildlife biologist has to say about WDFW essentially just ignoring an animal population and what they should or could do to help
Post by: grundy53 on September 29, 2016, 12:39:11 PM
The maternal pens were approved.Dwils, maybe post a question you have for the biologist and somebody who thinks like him will answer your question :chuckle:
my main questions are:
1. What other agencies (public/private/education) are interested in working with the tribe/ how active or aggresive is the tribe in finding new partner agencies or institutions?
2. From a wildlife management perspective, what does the wdfw need to do in order to protect the extant population?
3. Does the tribe (and other stakeholders) have a long-term management plan prepared? is it available to read?
4. What can the general public do to help at this point?
and finally
5. would he consider a "ride along" volunteer when he does a herd visit? :chuckle:
WDFW is not involved in this project as far as I've heard. I think there was something eluded to in this regard earlier in the thread.
I've heard they were trying to boost the herd with animals from an outside source to eliminate genetic screw ups through inbreeding. I've also heard some maternal penning was on the table in order to better ensure survival of the newborns. Haven't heard in a while if any of this was going to be able to happen.
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Post by: whacker1 on September 29, 2016, 12:41:45 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on September 29, 2016, 01:35:03 PM
my main questions are:
1. What other agencies (public/private/education) are interested in working with the tribe/ how active or aggresive is the tribe in finding new partner agencies or institutions? The tribes are scratching up somw money and have enough to construct the pen now. We will need somw volunteers to help with that effort though. Grant applications are pending for more substantial funding for long term projects.
2. From a wildlife management perspective, what does the wdfw need to do in order to protect the extant population? The population needs a number of things 1) continued habitat protection 2) predator control 3) genetic augmentation and time.
3. Does the tribe (and other stakeholders) have a long-term management plan prepared? is it available to read? We have a draft management plan in the works. The Kootenai tribe has contracted with USFWS and there is a group called SCITWG drafting that document
Not available yet though. Hopefully this winter
4. What can the general public do to help at this point? Not much unfortunately. Support any efforts we can get started (maternal pen this fall) through volunteerism
and finally
5. would he consider a "ride along" volunteer when he does a herd visit? :chuckle:. Come on anytime. The caribou are tough to find, but we can see some great country up there
Post by: Humptulips on September 29, 2016, 07:07:41 PM
All that is needed is a little predator control and maybe a politician with some pull to beg BC for a dozen caribou.
Doesn't really sound that expensive to me and I can't imagine anyone here arguing to hard against a little predator control.
Great press for a hunting group to get behind this and a little push back against the wolf, cougar lovers.
Post by: fish vacuum on October 01, 2016, 05:47:14 PM
Post by: Humptulips on October 02, 2016, 07:32:59 PM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01852/
Does not look very promising, few tidbits I saw that makes me wonder if they will ever come back:
Overall abundance of southern mountain caribou has declined 45% since the late 1980s and was estimated at 1,544 animals during 2008-2014. Eleven of the 17 subpopulations show declining trends, nine hold fewer than 50 animals, and two have become extirpated since 2003. The South Selkirk subpopulation was considered abundant and possibly numbered in the hundreds in the late 1800s, but decreased to an estimated 25-100 caribou between 1925 and the mid-1980s. Numbers ranged between 33 and 51 animals from 1991 to 2009 despite being supplemented with 103 caribou in two separate multi-year translocations in the late 1980s and 1990s. Most recently, the subpopulation declined rapidly from 46 to 12 caribou between 2009 and 2016. The percent of calves in the subpopulation during late winter surveys averaged 9.9% per year from 2004 to 2016, which is below the estimated 12-15% needed to maintain a stable population having high adult survival. Additionally, the South Selkirk subpopulation is isolated from neighboring subpopulations, with probably no immigration occurring in recent decades.
Post by: CGDucksandDeer on October 03, 2016, 02:31:14 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/04/science/endangered-caribou-idaho-british-columbia.html?_r=1
(http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/04/science/endangered-caribou-idaho-british-columbia.html?_r=1)
A Methow Valley-based biologist and author is also working on a project to help bring more publicity to this endangered species. Hopefully it can point some attention in the direction of reintroduction programs and predator removals before it's too late.
http://davidmoskowitz.net/mci/ (http://davidmoskowitz.net/mci/)
Post by: timberfaller on October 31, 2016, 10:36:04 AM
Wonder when/why he "transplanted" himself to the Methow?? Probably to join the MVCC!! Never heard of him after living there 35 years
Post by: idaho guy on January 17, 2017, 11:55:18 AM
Canadian Gray Wolves are not native to Washington State. Its not proven that they were released here but migrated naturally, that still doesn't make them native. The Caribou are actually native and deserve to be protected from the non-native wolves that prey on them. Griz are actually native as well, and as scary as they are, I'm glad to have a few of them back. They are awesome animals. Shoot the wolves.
Caribou migrated here from Canada same as the wolves. More of them live in Canada where the same wolves are more established.
I don't see the point in spending money to try to "save" a few animals at the fringe edge of their habitat.
There is another angle on this. An old timer told me about a guy high up in the forest service who fell in love with the Selkirks and started the whole native caribou thing to basically try and create another wilderness area and limit a lot of use in that part of North Idaho. They have already in the past limited places you can snowmobile in the priest lake area to protect the "native caribou". Also I have read where they want them or they already have classified them as a sub-species of caribou. I agree 100% that the few they have been documented are migratory Canadian caribuou. I would love to have caribou all over Idaho but I can see this as another environmental move to limit access by man to a large area. I have not listened to the podcast but I will. I don't want to argue either just another viewpoint. Think spotted owl
Post by: idelkslayer on January 23, 2017, 03:03:28 PM
The USFS tried to set aside a large swath of the Idaho selkirk crest as designated caribou habitat and restrict snowmobile access. The locals threw a fit and got the designated area reduced to an area so small it doesn't matter anymore.
I agree with the comments that if we treated deer and elk like everyone is so willing to forget about the caribou we would have nothing left to hunt but rabbits. Some early reports have sightings of caribou as far south as Moscow.
When I was in high school I used to dream that caribou would recover enough that a controlled hunt might open for them in my lifetime. After a decade I hoped that I might at least see and photograph one in my lifetime. Another decade and now I have little hope of that.
Post by: idaho guy on January 24, 2017, 06:17:02 PM
The caribou are native, it's not made up by some "high up" forest service employee. Hell even Theodore Roosevelt went on a hunting trip to the Idaho Selkirks to hunt caribou back in the day as has been mentioned previously on this thread.
The USFS tried to set aside a large swath of the Idaho selkirk crest as designated caribou habitat and restrict snowmobile access. The locals threw a fit and got the designated area reduced to an area so small it doesn't matter anymore.
I agree with the comments that if we treated deer and elk like everyone is so willing to forget about the caribou we would have nothing left to hunt but rabbits. Some early reports have sightings of caribou as far south as Moscow.
When I was in high school I used to dream that caribou would recover enough that a controlled hunt might open for them in my lifetime. After a decade I hoped that I might at least see and photograph one in my lifetime. Another decade and now I have little hope of that.
Me too elkslayer, I also got excited and dreamed that we could have a controlled hunt for caribou. Just seeing a caribou in Idaho would be worth the effort. I agree with all that. This is all I want other hunters to consider- extreme environmentalist have never met an "endangered species" they didn't love and have never let a good endangered species crisis go to waste. Whether it is the spotted owl or some unique subspecies of tadpole they have locked up tons of land and did everything they can to keep man out. I am a conservationist as are almost all hunters I know. I know that man is part of nature and we belong there hunting,logging,fishing whatever but we need to be good stewards of it. Extreme environmentalist don't believe man should be in the woods doing anything other than a short nature hike making sure no one leaves approved trails. Everything I have read about the Selkirk caribou herd suggest they spend 90% of their time in Canada. The herd in Canada was in the thousands upon thousands and is something like 1500? now and they have been wiped out by guess what? Predators-wolves mainly and mountain lions. Wolves, of course, another endangered species that we had to re introduce Good luck with that and any of the herd that wanders into ne Washington. I have seen this movie before-Uh oh endangered species! lets carve out 600,000 acres with no snowmobiles. That didn't work lets not do any more logging and reclaim all roads. That didn't work will make it a wilderness area. That didn't work maybe we should close this down to hunting?I don't know? The herd spends 90% of their time in Canada and what was the last count that crossed the border? 4 I think is what I read maybe as high as 11? The work needs to be done in Canada where the Caribou live most of their lives and I think we should help in Canada if possible. What is the work? We need to kill some predators not restrict 600000 acres from some dude riding a snowmobile. By the way Teddy Roosevelt went to the Idaho territory in 1881 or 82 and what is now Sandpoint to get a pack string to take the Wild Horse trail north into British Columbia to spike camp and hunt caribou out of Kootenay Lake in CANADA!Its by Nelson a little over 2 hours drive north of Sandpoint . I also appreciate wilderness and have packed into the Frank Church with my own horses so I am not against that we just cant lock and tie up the majority of our public land. I lion hunt a lot and if you cant use your snowmobile to check tracks etc it makes the job of controlling predators signifigantly more difficult. Ironic but if they would have been successful in closing all that acreage to snowmobiles they could have actually HURT the caribou since most of what the decline has been is predator related. I also am not a rabid Preist lake snowmobiler I haven't snowmobiled up there for over 15 years but have done it quite a bit before that. Just think about it may be another side to all this and it aint pretty!
Post by: idaho guy on January 24, 2017, 06:41:17 PM
It's frustrating to hear how they are well on their way to extirpation and that no agency seems to care at all about it. I wish I could shove all the dead carcasses from the last caribou herd in the lower 48 in front of every wolf lover in this state and force them to realize what a garbage policy is doing to our wildlife. :bash: end rant
As far as their historic numbers, Apparently they used to be healthy enough that Teddy Roosevelt went on a hunt for the herd out of Priest Lake, so they have had a footprint in the states before. If we took a dismissive attitude about all our extirpated animals I think most of us wouldn't be hunting today. Most of our current game species had to be saved from dangerously low numbers.
I think it's one of the best podcasts Rinella has done yet, especially for washingtonians. The biologist is a smart guy, I would love to pick his brain. Definitely worth everyone's time to listen
Teddy Roosevelt came to Idaho territory and what is now Sandpoint to hire a pack string to take the Wild Horse trail to spike camp and hunt caribou out of Kootenay lake in CANADA!
Post by: idelkslayer on January 26, 2017, 09:02:48 AM
Yes most of the work will have to be done in Canada because the few caribou that are counted in Idaho only spend a portion of their time here. But the habitat needs of caribou include old growth forest. So while most of the work in Canada goes on killing wolves setting aside some areas from logging we would need to set aside some places from logging also so that the habitat base is there when caribou begin to recover. Since these caribou have a survival strategy of going up in elevation during winter and feeding on lichens in old growth forests only the higher portions of the mountain need be protected and we can log to our hearts content in the lower elevations. I don't think it will be necessary to ban snowmobiles at all if we can provide enough habitat for the caribou.
Post by: idaho guy on January 26, 2017, 10:58:19 AM
Fully aware of everything you said Idaho guy, I'm actually from the same area as you although a little further north, Sandpoint. I also disagree with the extreme environmentalist attitude of completely removing man from nature. The fact is that man is and always has been a part of nature. I don't want to stop all logging to save the caribou nor do I want to end snowmobiling. Yes the majority of the caribou have always been in CANADA (thanks for the caps) but the US side of the border used to support them in the hundreds.
Yes most of the work will have to be done in Canada because the few caribou that are counted in Idaho only spend a portion of their time here. But the habitat needs of caribou include old growth forest. So while most of the work in Canada goes on killing wolves setting aside some areas from logging we would need to set aside some places from logging also so that the habitat base is there when caribou begin to recover. Since these caribou have a survival strategy of going up in elevation during winter and feeding on lichens in old growth forests only the higher portions of the mountain need be protected and we can log to our hearts content in the lower elevations. I don't think it will be necessary to ban snowmobiles at all if we can provide enough habitat for the caribou.
Sound like we agree for the most part. I knew with a name like idelkslayer we would agree on a few things. I finally listened to the podcast and it does get you excited to try and do what we can. From the podcast sounds like the habitat is already there in sufficient amounts there just isn't the animals. I do like the bio on there he had some good information and is trying his best on a tough job he has been given. I have seen them use the endangered species act to screw up so many things in the past I get real suspicious when they find a new one. I lived in northwest Montana in high school and they stopped the grizzly bear hunt we had at that time because of the endangered species act(and the bison hunt out of the park for a while). They even shut down shooting ground squirrels and prairie dogs in parts of eastern Montana because of a black footed ferret or some kind of rodent I had never seen out there ever. They need that grizzly hunt back, anyone could buy a griz tag for I think 50 bucks but they closed the season down as soon as I think 3 were killed by any means(hit by the train coming out of the park etc). It was perfect and kept the bears afraid of man and the problem bears coming to town were the first to be taken. Now over 30 years later they are having lots of bear problems and will probably never be able to have that kind of hunt again. I would hate to have Idaho hunters jump all in on a cause the extremist could use as a weapon against us especially for an animal that spends most of their life in another country. I would love to see them back but still believe its a problem that needs to be solved in Canada and I think Idaho does serve as basically fringe habitat. We could transport 100 down here and maybe they would just go back to Canada? I don't know. I just did the caps because the hunt thing out of Priest Lake was not true and I hate when people spread bullcrap information as if it were true. Everything I know about Teddy Rooselvelts caribou hunt is what I said,maybe there was another hunt but I really doubt it. Thanks for not turning this into a fight I really want Idaho hunters to at least think about the other side of this and the potential risk