Post by: Goex2Fwithroundball on September 30, 2016, 08:45:25 PM
My 13 year old son has been shooting competitive archery for 2 years. Last year he told me he wanted to try deer hunting. For the past year he has been shooting 3d targets and competitions to prepare. I felt very confident in his ability to consistantly hit the kill zone/vitals on targets.
A couple of weeks ago we were out hunting. Right before dark he got within 40 yards of a big whitetail doe. He stuck it right behind the front shoulder, exactly where he has been taught. It ran off.
We waited about 30 minutes and went to get it. We looked for about an hour but could not find any sign. We went back out at first light the next morning. 3 of us spent 5 hours combing about a 2 mile area. Not ANY sign of that deer. Not One drop of blood not anything. I feel sick knowing that deer is wasted. I am trying to keep my son positive but he is very frustrated.
I will take him back out in November for his late season and try again.
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
He currently shoots a Hoyt Ignite compound , 50 pound draw, 500 grain carbons with 100 grain Muzzy 4 blade broadheads.
Post by: elkhunter1977 on September 30, 2016, 08:52:00 PM
Post by: Goex2Fwithroundball on September 30, 2016, 08:59:36 PM
We did not find any signs at all.
Post by: Lucky1 on September 30, 2016, 09:02:16 PM
Post by: High Climber on September 30, 2016, 09:44:44 PM
Post by: h2ofowlr on September 30, 2016, 10:00:41 PM
Post by: greenhead_killer on September 30, 2016, 11:04:13 PM
Post by: Goex2Fwithroundball on October 01, 2016, 05:16:06 AM
No offense to you but if that deer was broadside and hit behind the shoulder at a proper height we would be looking at pictures and congratulating you guys. My thought is either the deer was quartered towards him and entered the guts or possibly a clean miss under the deers belly and the arrow is buried in the dirt. Did you see the arrow in the deer as it ran off? Thick country at all? If it was indeed a double lung hit that deer is most likely dead within 100yards of the shot. Probably preaching to the choir but quartering angles are a much bigger deal with a bow than with either a rifle or muzzy.
No offense taken.
The deer was standing direct broadside. The arrow stuck behind the front shoulder. I saw the lighted knock as it ran off.
After very much thought I am guessing the shot was high. It obviously did not hit vitals.
The area was thick brush and open grass. We looked high and low for signs. Crawling under brush and logs. Looking for any clue of the arrow scratching as it ran by, a track, blood. We found nothing.
Post by: D-Rock425 on October 01, 2016, 09:16:48 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on October 01, 2016, 09:18:12 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 01, 2016, 09:31:28 AM
Post by: waoutdoorsman on October 01, 2016, 09:55:38 AM
It sucks but it happens with every style of hunting eventually. Best thing to do is get him back on the horse as soon as you can.
It sucks when it happens but it does happen. I lost a deer hit solidly with 180 grains from a 30-06 once. Its a frustrating gut wrenching feeling but as d rock said get him back on that horse.
Post by: BLDtraLR on October 01, 2016, 10:10:22 AM
Post by: Special T on October 01, 2016, 05:54:07 PM
Post by: mburrows on October 01, 2016, 06:25:13 PM
Did u ever find the arrow?
Post by: copasj on October 01, 2016, 10:51:29 PM
All that said, the best he can do is try again. Trying to get closer would be his best bet also. There is a whole lot more variables to account for with a bow than a rifle, and a lot less energy to damage tissue. But that is what made it rewarding for me, definitely not for the faint of heart.
Also, look at the entry and exit holes on lucky1's pictures. That's too low on my 3d target, about the bottom of the insert. But I'm guessing he hit the heart.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Post by: Lucky1 on October 01, 2016, 11:05:47 PM
My limited experience was that there is huge amount of difference between trailing an archery and rifle shot deer. Much less blood, and the deer snuck off after a few short bounds vs running like a bat out of hades. I was also on an even plane with the deer and both holes were mid chest. I was able to find very little blood comparatively, and that dried up completely about 20 yards before the deer died. There was a LOT of blood still in the chest cavity.Yep. Hit the heart.
All that said, the best he can do is try again. Trying to get closer would be his best bet also. There is a whole lot more variables to account for with a bow than a rifle, and a lot less energy to damage tissue. But that is what made it rewarding for me, definitely not for the faint of heart.
Also, look at the entry and exit holes on lucky1's pictures. That's too low on my 3d target, about the bottom of the insert. But I'm guessing he hit the heart.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Post by: coachcw on October 13, 2016, 07:27:25 AM
Post by: rtspring on October 13, 2016, 07:36:26 AM
It happens to the best of us.
I stuck a spike elk at 15 feet last year. That lived to see another day, All we can do is ensure we take a lethal shot. Sometimes it works and sometimes it just dont. Thats hunting.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on October 13, 2016, 08:01:06 AM
Post by: Sneaky on October 13, 2016, 09:27:47 AM
If you do the math, shooting that heavy arrow is not giving you any significant increase in kinetic energy because of adverse effect to speed. My calculations on lighter arrows vs. heavier arrows for your son's setup are hovering within 2-3lbs of eachother, so you might as well go with a lighter arrow and pick up some speed.
There is a great deal on goldtip hunter pro (.001") straightness arrows on amazon right now in 500 spine. I would cut them to 27", or shorter if his draw can afford it, and get a lighter arrow with higher front of center. This will travel faster and hit just as hard as what he has going right now. I would also get rid of the lighted nocks and go to a standard nock as the heavy tail of those arrows is robbing you of FOC. :twocents:
https://www.amazon.com/Gold-Tip-Hunter-Arrows-1-Dozen/dp/B00UTJIT0U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476242151&sr=8-1&keywords=goldtip+hunter+pro
37.95 a dozen for these arrows is a steal! Good luck.
Post by: Sneaky on October 13, 2016, 09:29:16 AM
https://goldtip.com/newsdetail.aspx?id=93&type=1
Post by: npaull on December 12, 2016, 12:17:07 PM
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If he hit "no mans land" above the lungs and below the spine, the deer is probably ok. It happens often and people blame broadheads, archery itself as the reason they didn't get the animal. I have killed more than 30 deer with a bow and arrow. Some kills were ugly, but most are quick and clean. Don't let him get discouraged. It will happen and there is nothing more exciting and satisfying than getting one with a bow. Pictures of this years deer. He went about 40 yards and piled up. Used a schwacker mechanical head.
The "no man's land" is an utter myth. It just doesn't exist. Period. End of discussion.
There are muscles ABOVE the spine, then the spinal column, then immediately below that is the aorta/vena cava, and then you're in the chest. THERE IS NO EMPTY SPACE. Most people who think they've hit this "void" area are actually ABOVE the spine in the backstraps.
Also, most archers shoot WAY, WAY too far back. Shooting "right behind the crease of the shoulder" generally means you're way back in the chest, often in guts. You want to crowd the front of the animal, way up IN the meat of the shoulder. The scapula and the humerus create a "V" shape, opening with the top of the V pointing back to the tail of the deer. Your shot should be at the vertex of the V, WAY in the front of the animal. A shot placed there will kill them in sight. Every. Single. Time.
Post by: 2MANY on December 12, 2016, 12:24:49 PM
Poke a hole in the bottom of a water balloon then poke a hole in the top of a different one.
Which one bleeds out better?
Post by: npaull on December 12, 2016, 12:28:39 PM
Post by: Mudman on December 12, 2016, 12:30:07 PM
Post by: Buzz2401 on December 12, 2016, 12:40:15 PM
Post by: npaull on December 12, 2016, 12:51:32 PM
Post by: Buzz2401 on December 12, 2016, 07:21:23 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on December 12, 2016, 09:01:07 PM
" Losing game is part or archery hunting." Actually losing game can be part of ALL hunting. I have killed 2 bucks with my bow in late archery a week after gun season that had been shot presumably during late buck. I have found dead bucks during gun season that were unrecovered. To be fair I have shot a bull with an arrow in it. And have plenty of stories of healed over broadheads and even full arrows.
If there is reason to suspect a likely fatal hit, I cut a tag whether it was a bow or gun. But, I dont believe for one second that a blood draw equals a dead animal, so I will be leaving the judgement call up to the individual pulling the trigger and tracking.
Post by: Buzz2401 on December 12, 2016, 10:10:10 PM
Post by: northwesthunter84 on December 12, 2016, 10:15:00 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on December 12, 2016, 11:23:48 PM
There is for sure a larger margin of error. Not by any means saying rifle hunters are more elite or better or anything like that. Put a arrow in the right place animals die with a quickness. But like you said the margin is smaller with a arrow then a large caliber rifle. As far as wounded game living. I know from personal experience that wounded game can live on but I don't feel it should be an excuse to keep hunting, because plenty of wounded animals don't make it.
Your post states that an Archers motto should be 60 percent of the time it works everytime. I am not offended thats your opinion. :tup: Mine is, that saying that about archery is very one dimensional and I apply that motto to any irresponsible hunter regardless of whether they are throwing a spear or using a 338 ultra mag.
I guess when it comes to wounding i use a scenario based equation and let that guide my consciounsce. For example say, I shoot a buck At the shot there is no impact noise and no real reaction to the hit from the animal, no dropping, lunging etc. Upon examining where the animal was standing I find a large spray of hair that appears consistent with main body. Light snow on the ground shows a small spray of blood behind him. No other indication of a hit, bone fragment or meat. I take up the trail and the animal slows down after a hundred yards still in light snow. I have cut a half a dozen small drop of blood, usually slightly off the trail on the opposite side of the shot where tracks show he "bounced". He has slowed to a trot then steady walk and I continue on the tracks in the snow with no more blood after the initial hundred yard dash. I finally run out of snow and lose his track in some rocky cliffs 5-6 hundred yards from the initial shot location. He was mainly side hilling then climbed sharply as he entered the rocks prior to losing tracks all together. Obviously every one has to make their own choice and there is no way to say with 100 percent certainty that this would be a wound the buck died from, but myself I would say a prayer to wish him luck, sorry for the inconvenience and continue to hunt.
Post by: npaull on December 14, 2016, 11:12:50 AM
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Npaull I have had the luck to have taken many deer and an elk with multiple weapon types. Your comment about the anatomy makes no sense unless a quartering too shot is taken. I have shot animals 6" back from the shoulder with a firearm broadside. 40 yard pile up double lung. My guess is you tend to high shoulder shoot. Sucks to loose that much meat, also neck shots in my book are lower percentage, your just using shock. Seen a few of those animals get up and keep trucking.
Nope, my comment and advice about the anatomy is dead-on, although it sounds like it may be getting misinterpreted. I'm not talking about the neck, I'm talking about how to shoot an animal in the chest such that it dies almost immediately. You need to crowd the "V" of the humerus and scapula, way forward of "the crease." If you put a shot right at the vertex there, you'll go just OVER the top of the heart and take out the great vessels right as they leave the heart. The result is the most devastating injury a vertebrate can sustain short of decapitation. It's just an anatomical and physiological fact.
Post by: huntingbaldguy on December 14, 2016, 11:32:16 AM
I talked to a lot of people about it, that know far more than i about arrow building. They all said the same thing. Too front heavy, and too heavy period. She now shoots a 380 grain arrow at 10% FOC but we haven't gotten to test them on an animal yet. I can tell you they fly better and penetrate our targets better but the true test has yet to come. She did kill a deer last year with the same arrows at 7 yards. Perfect broadside shot, double lunged, but i still was less than impressed with the penetration she got, so thus the new lighter arrows were built.
Post by: Browndawg on March 08, 2017, 04:12:06 PM
Post by: Sneaky on March 08, 2017, 04:24:34 PM
We had an issue last season. My wife has a 22" draw and was shooting 45 lbs. I built her some 480 grain arrows with an 18% FOC, because i read on the internet that they deliver more energy and penetrate better. Long story short she took a shot at 11 yards on a spike last season. It's dead, i know it is. We never found it. The blood trail was incredible, followed it through a patch of thick brush, easy to follow. Followed it all the way out into a clear cut... where the blood disappeared. We searched for 4 hrs in the dark. We then searched for 3 hrs the next day with extra help. Never found it. Found her arrow and it only got about 5 inches of penetration with a 2 blade cut on contact broadhead.
I talked to a lot of people about it, that know far more than i about arrow building. They all said the same thing. Too front heavy, and too heavy period. She now shoots a 380 grain arrow at 10% FOC but we haven't gotten to test them on an animal yet. I can tell you they fly better and penetrate our targets better but the true test has yet to come. She did kill a deer last year with the same arrows at 7 yards. Perfect broadside shot, double lunged, but i still was less than impressed with the penetration she got, so thus the new lighter arrows were built.
FOC is a crucial aspect in terms of penetration, but must also be used in conjunction with a realistic arrow weight. Seeing as she is limited by her equipment, I would be looking for that extra advantage. In a 380gr arrow you can still achieve 15-18% FOC if you select the right arrow shaft. I would look at black eagle rampages for that setup in 400 spine. You could build these at 380 or less grains.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 08, 2017, 04:58:02 PM
Game can be lost with bow or rifle, its just more likely to happen to the bow hunter - on average. Its part of the process.