Post by: 7mmfan on November 17, 2016, 02:33:57 PM
1. I want to practice shooting a lot more than I have in the past, without shooting my 7 mag or 7mm-08. The round count on my 7 mag is getting up there, and I'd rather preserve it since it shoots so well, and my 7mm-08 is a very lightweight mountain rifle that gets hot fast, so I can't really shoot all that much with it.
2. Varmints. Never spent much time after them, but I hunted a piece of private ground this fall that was absolutely loaded with them, and the farmer expressed some interest in someone coming in and thinning them a bit. I'm happy to oblige.
3. Smaller lighter - weight gun to pack around in the woods during the off season for the opportunistic coyote, grouse, etc...
I haven't established a budget for this yet, but I'd like to keep the gun under about $600. I can get deals on scopes, so that's not a factor.
Any standouts that you guys would suggest right off the bat?
Post by: JDHasty on November 17, 2016, 03:03:41 PM
I use a Winchester Mod 70 Heavy Varmint in 243 and like it real well and I also shoot a Winchester Mod 70 in 300 Wby and that keeps me familiar with the model 70.
One of the best values for the money IMHO is the Howa or Howa action Vanguard
I would think a model 700 or 70 should be had in the price strata you are looking at and I have never had any trouble getting excellent accuracy out of either.
Post by: Reidus on November 17, 2016, 03:05:04 PM
I like the tikka's for an off the shelf gun. Good triggers, point nice, light and easy to pack. I have 1 in 223. 223 would also work great for what you're describing. Not going to heat up as fast as 22-250 or 243, less recoil, lots of diff ammo. You can also watch your hits with a 223 as long as your scope isn't much more than 7x-8x.
Post by: theleo on November 17, 2016, 03:18:57 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on November 17, 2016, 03:20:18 PM
What I'm also hoping for is a fairly compact gun, something that is light and easy to pack around so it doesn't get in the way when I'm not really on a "hunting" trip but want to haul the gun around just in case. The Model 70 Featherweight Compact seems to fit that bill well, but is pricey. Know of any other compact versions similar to that one?
Post by: 7mmfan on November 17, 2016, 03:20:48 PM
Tikka T3x lite for going lighter. One thing about going light with a 22-250 is that the barrel heats up pretty quick. I let my heavy barrel Remington cool after about 7 shots, could put more through it but getting heavy barrels hot means it takes them that much longer to cool down. For high volume varmints the 22-250 might not be your best friend.
Good to know, I wasn't sure how fast it would heat up, I have no experience with these calibers. I'll keep that in mind.
Post by: 7mmfan on November 17, 2016, 03:25:10 PM
Good feedback. I have no interest in another gun for deer hunting, so I'm not going to bump up to the 243. I have considered the .223, but I like the ballistics of the 22-250. I my own handloading for my other guns, and would for this one as well, so the ammo availability isn't to much of an issue. If I could be convinced that the ballistics weren't any different out to say, 300ish yards, then I might be swayed.
What I'm also hoping for is a fairly compact gun, something that is light and easy to pack around so it doesn't get in the way when I'm not really on a "hunting" trip but want to haul the gun around just in case. The Model 70 Featherweight Compact seems to fit that bill well, but is pricey. Know of any other compact versions similar to that one?
Looks like Tikka does now that I look closer.
Post by: nutntoit on November 17, 2016, 03:29:49 PM
Post by: theleo on November 17, 2016, 04:06:01 PM
Post by: cdriver on November 17, 2016, 04:20:02 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on November 17, 2016, 04:22:38 PM
Post by: b23 on November 17, 2016, 05:48:30 PM
Post by: fowl smacker on November 17, 2016, 06:40:04 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on November 18, 2016, 09:19:20 AM
This gun will serve multiple purposes for me. My wife is interested in shooting, but my 7 mag and 7mm-08 are a little rough on her. This gun will allow for longer range shooting without the recoil. She has no intentions of hunting at this point, probably never will, so I'm not worried about this being deer legal.
I want it to be compact and light so I can pack it around for opportunistic grouse/coyote/rabbit, etc...
Down the road, I want to be able to teach little ones to shoot with it as well, hence the compact/light recoil.
I know there are other options, and ballistically I am probably splitting hairs, but this is the route I've decided to go.
Post by: theleo on November 18, 2016, 10:09:08 AM
Post by: Bofire on November 18, 2016, 10:30:46 AM
Carl
Post by: 7mmfan on November 18, 2016, 10:49:29 AM
I wouldn't say your splitting hairs ballisticly. There's a definet step up between the 22-250 and 223. There's just some caveats with the cartridge and most rifles to consider. For light, compact, low recoil, and long range the 22-250 will fit the bill, just when you look at them know that the 1 in 14" twist pretty much puts you at 55gr bullets and lighter. Mine sighted in at 200 yards means I hold high on the fur of coyote at 300 yards and put a little daylight between it's back and the cross hairs at 400 yards for solid hits. For hunting small game for the table you'll have to slow it way down. Even my basic load of 38gr of H380 will render a grouse or rabbit in edible unless you stick to head shots.
That's great info, thanks for that. I'll admit I'm pretty novice when it comes to the science of reloading, still learning all the intricasies.
Post by: crabcreekhunter on November 18, 2016, 11:18:35 AM
Post by: Yondering on November 18, 2016, 01:38:17 PM
I wouldn't say your splitting hairs ballisticly. There's a definet step up between the 22-250 and 223. There's just some caveats with the cartridge and most rifles to consider. For light, compact, low recoil, and long range the 22-250 will fit the bill, just when you look at them know that the 1 in 14" twist pretty much puts you at 55gr bullets and lighter. Mine sighted in at 200 yards means I hold high on the fur of coyote at 300 yards and put a little daylight between it's back and the cross hairs at 400 yards for solid hits. For hunting small game for the table you'll have to slow it way down. Even my basic load of 38gr of H380 will render a grouse or rabbit in edible unless you stick to head shots.
Along with that, there's a lot to be said for a 223/5.56 for the uses stated in the OP. A 223 isn't really a "long range" cartridge, but with a faster twist and heavy bullets, can be more consistent at distance than a 22-250 restricted to light bullets by a slow twist.
You mention wanting to practice more without burning out your barrel; the 223 wins hands down there. Do you want to burn 23-28gr of powder per shot, or 35-40gr? The cost of brass is significant too, or just ammo cost if you don't load your own.
The 223 won't "pop" little varmints quite as hard as the 22-250, but you'll still get a lot of impressive cartwheels and pink mist, if that's what you're looking for. It'll also do fine on varmints of any size in this state, and is arguably a bit more versatile on larger stuff than the 22-250, just because of the twist rate and heavier bullet choices. If you do consider a 223, skip anything 1:9 twist or slower, go with 1:7 or 1:8; you won't give up anything with the light bullets, and gain versatility with the heavy stuff, win win.
Post by: theleo on November 18, 2016, 02:46:40 PM
Post by: b23 on November 18, 2016, 04:02:31 PM
Seems like the Ruger American has a 1 in 10" twist. It'd definitely be worth a look at as a general duty/long range rifle as you'd be looking at bullets up to 70gr, maybe 75gr, for shooting long distance.
Depending on the specific bullet, a 1-10tw 22-250, even with 70 grainers, would be pretty marginal and is pretty doubtful it'd stabilize any of the high BC 75 grainers. I don't think 1-10tw 223 would even stabilize the 70's.
I shoot 75gr VLD's out of a 1-9tw 22-6mm, which shoots considerably faster than a 22-250, and it's marginal at best.
Post by: 7mmfan on November 21, 2016, 11:02:18 AM
Post by: Yondering on November 21, 2016, 11:09:31 AM
You guys that are in the know, why are 22-250's barreled with 1:14 or 1:10 twist, while the lighter/slower .223 has the faster rate? Doesn't make sense to me but I'm not as knowledgeable either.
It's a good question. Unfortunately, the answer seems to be that "we've always done it that way". Traditionally the 22-250 was intended for varmint shooting with light high velocity bullets, before these longer heavy bullets were developed. A fast twist 22-250 would be nice to have; a guy could have one custom made pretty easily.
Post by: JJB11B on November 21, 2016, 11:20:03 AM
Post by: JDHasty on November 21, 2016, 12:43:46 PM
Look into .220 swift they generally have tighter twist barrels for running heavier slugs
Really?
I don't think so. I have seen WAY more 22-250s with a faster than 1:14 than I have seen swifts. And by that I may have seen a faster twist swift once, but I know I have seen five or six 22-250s. The rate of twist was established back when MV was king and that is why both have a standard rate of twist of 1:14.
From the American Rifleman: Early on, the .223 Rem. was considered a varmint cartridge. Accordingly, most barrels had a slow rifling twist rate of one turn in 12 inches (1 in 12). This worked fine with most common bullets weighing 55 grains or less. As new bullets emerged for the .223 Rem., shooters found the 1 in 12 twist was lacking in its ability to stabilize heavier bullets for good accuracy. In turn, faster twisted barrels for the .223 Rem. became more popular.
Post by: 7mmfan on November 21, 2016, 01:57:18 PM
Post by: JJB11B on November 21, 2016, 02:43:29 PM
look up 1/8 twist .220. varmint guys love them for shooting 75Gr. bulletsLook into .220 swift they generally have tighter twist barrels for running heavier slugs
Really?
I don't think so. I have seen WAY more 22-250s with a faster than 1:14 than I have seen swifts. And but hat I may have seen a faster twist swift once, but I know I have seen five or six 22-250s. The rate of twist was established back when MV was king and that is why both have a standard rate of twist of 1:14.
From the American Rifleman: Early on, the .223 Rem. was considered a varmint cartridge. Accordingly, most barrels had a slow rifling twist rate of one turn in 12 inches (1 in 12). This worked fine with most common bullets weighing 55 grains or less. As new bullets emerged for the .223 Rem., shooters found the 1 in 12 twist was lacking in its ability to stabilize heavier bullets for good accuracy. In turn, faster twisted barrels for the .223 Rem. became more popular.
Post by: JJB11B on November 21, 2016, 02:44:17 PM
I'm trying to think of a reason that I would need a heavier slug anyhow, and I can't really think of one. This is not a hunting rifle, but a target rifle and opportunistic varmint/grouse gun. A lighter slug is probably preferable anyway.a .220 with a heavy slug is a capable round to 800 yards for coyotes...
Post by: 7mmfan on November 21, 2016, 02:56:11 PM
Post by: JJB11B on November 21, 2016, 03:10:14 PM
Post by: jrebel on November 21, 2016, 03:13:09 PM
I shoot a heavy barreled Savage and it will absolutely outshoot me and my abilities. It is a little heavier than what you discribe you want, but savage makes amazing rifles. I would personally stay away from the axis series, though many guys like them. I would look look at the model 12 first, but any other model chambered in the 22-250 would work. It would all depend on how you want it set up, weight, etc.
Good Luck
Post by: JDHasty on November 21, 2016, 03:21:32 PM
I never have, and probably never will have a need for anything beyond 400, maybe 450. Even for fun.
When all I had was a Remington 788 in 22-250 and my buddy had a Ruger M77 V in 22-250 (the early 1980's) we would go over to Montana for a week or two and were hitting prairie dogs at north of five hundred yards fairly consistently and I was shooting a Sierra 1390 that is about as aerodynamic as a brick. He was shooting the Sierra 1365 and those were in the days before laser range finders.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 21, 2016, 03:26:24 PM
Post by: theleo on November 21, 2016, 03:27:48 PM
For really long stuff (600+ yards) the 75gr and heavier bullets are the way to go. If you want to turn squirrels into a red mist, light bullets are spectacular.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 21, 2016, 03:37:37 PM
You guys that are in the know, why are 22-250's barreled with 1:14 or 1:10 twist, while the lighter/slower .223 has the faster rate? Doesn't make sense to me but I'm not as knowledgeable either.You can get a bullet going faster if you have a slower twist. It limits you to lighter bullets, but that gives you a higher velocity. Some of the old cartridges would sell better with increased velocity, but only so much could be done with case capacity and powder of the time. Spend less energy spinning the bullet and more pushing it.
Post by: slm9s on November 21, 2016, 05:55:44 PM
Post by: b23 on November 21, 2016, 06:29:08 PM
There are Tikka T3 Superlites out there with a factory 1-8 twist. Check Sportsmans warehouse. I'd go this route if I were you.
Didn't know Tikka ever put anything but a 1-14tw barrel on their 22-250's. Which models ever had a 1-8tw barrel???
Post by: brew on November 21, 2016, 07:24:30 PM
Post by: slm9s on November 21, 2016, 08:45:40 PM
Post by: JDHasty on November 21, 2016, 08:57:06 PM
FWIW I also shoot 223 in my ARs and in a 788 and like that round just fine too. You won't go wrong with a 22-250 or a 223.
If I were making the choice I would go with a quality off the rack 22-250 and not think twice about it.
Post by: Jrzbullelk on November 21, 2016, 09:22:49 PM
Post by: RadSav on November 21, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
Post by: Reidus on November 21, 2016, 09:59:06 PM
When I was active in competitive varmint hunting we started off with a Sako 222 and Remington 22-250 as team guns. Wasn't long before we realized our long range gun was lacking in windy conditions. What we thought was a gun that would give us another 200-300 yard gain really wasn't getting us much more than 100. We made the switch to 6mm and our world changed in a big way! I would not be so quick to discard the .243. Don't think of it as another deer rifle - Think of it as a kick arse big dog rifle that loves dang near every single bullet you put in the tube!
:yeah:
Post by: 7mmfan on November 22, 2016, 09:24:09 AM
I suspect the trajectory of your 7mm big game loads are about the same as those that I shoot out of my 300 Wby and that matches up very nicely with the trajectory of the 22-250. I have always liked that.
FWIW I also shoot 223 in my ARs and in a 788 and like that round just fine too. You won't go wrong with a 22-250 or a 223.
If I were making the choice I would go with a quality off the rack 22-250 and not think twice about it.
This is a big part of it. The practice practice practice part. I missed a couple of shots this year that I had no business missing, and I realized I really need to up my game. I've gotten a much better feel for the limitations of this round now though, thanks to you guys, and I'll keep it in mind.
When I was active in competitive varmint hunting we started off with a Sako 222 and Remington 22-250 as team guns. Wasn't long before we realized our long range gun was lacking in windy conditions. What we thought was a gun that would give us another 200-300 yard gain really wasn't getting us much more than 100. We made the switch to 6mm and our world changed in a big way! I would not be so quick to discard the .243. Don't think of it as another deer rifle - Think of it as a kick arse big dog rifle that loves dang near every single bullet you put in the tube!
I've considered this as well, I just haven't convinced myself its what I'm looking for since my primary use isn't hunting, just shooting with an opportunistic kill every once in a while. No reason that I can't buy one of these later on too :chuckle:
Post by: b23 on November 22, 2016, 10:35:50 AM
Post by: 7mmfan on November 22, 2016, 11:10:06 AM
Post by: RGB on November 23, 2016, 10:45:17 AM
Post by: 7mmfan on November 23, 2016, 11:02:04 AM
Post by: JDHasty on November 23, 2016, 11:11:52 AM
If money wasn't an object, I would totally have a custom rifle done. Unfortunately that's not the case. I don't need anything fancy, I want a gun that's fun to shoot, that can reach out a ways, and doesn't break the bank. From the research I've done, the 22-250 will satisfy that requirement. I can't own every caliber on the planet, so I have to find a happy medium somewhere, and I feel like that's the one. Thanks for the input though, I've learned a lot through this discussion.
Sounds to me as though you have done a great job of assessing what your needs are.
I have four plus decades experience shooting the 22-250 and that also by default means that I have forty years experience and then some of people trying to educate me on why something else is better.
Post by: 7mmfan on November 23, 2016, 11:15:27 AM
If money wasn't an object, I would totally have a custom rifle done. Unfortunately that's not the case. I don't need anything fancy, I want a gun that's fun to shoot, that can reach out a ways, and doesn't break the bank. From the research I've done, the 22-250 will satisfy that requirement. I can't own every caliber on the planet, so I have to find a happy medium somewhere, and I feel like that's the one. Thanks for the input though, I've learned a lot through this discussion.
Sounds to me as though you have done a great job of assessing what your needs are.
I have four plus decades experience shooting the 22-250 and that also by default means that I have forty years experience and then some of people trying to educate me on why something else is better.
:chuckle: The grass is always greener right?
Don't get me wrong, I love tinkering with guns as much as the next guy, but I don't have the time or the money to play with them all. Maybe one day I'll own some land, and have more free time and a bunch of money and I can bring home fancy calibers to shoot at pine cones with. Until then, I'll have to make due.
Post by: theleo on November 23, 2016, 11:27:13 AM
Jeez, you must have started out loading for it with black powder that long ago!
I have four plus decades experience shooting the 22-250 and that also by default means that I have forty years experience and then some of people trying to educate me on why something else is better.
Post by: JDHasty on November 23, 2016, 11:29:38 AM
Jeez, you must have started out loading for it with black powder that long ago!
I have four plus decades experience shooting the 22-250 and that also by default means that I have forty years experience and then some of people trying to educate me on why something else is better.
Tain't funny McGee!
Post by: 7mmfan on November 23, 2016, 11:38:02 AM
Jeez, you must have started out loading for it with black powder that long ago!
I have four plus decades experience shooting the 22-250 and that also by default means that I have forty years experience and then some of people trying to educate me on why something else is better.
Tain't funny McGee!
Kind of is, a little. :chuckle:
Post by: theleo on November 23, 2016, 01:10:39 PM
How about,Jeez, you must have started out loading for it with black powder that long ago!
I have four plus decades experience shooting the 22-250 and that also by default means that I have forty years experience and then some of people trying to educate me on why something else is better.
Tain't funny McGee!
Shooting varmints back then had have been like Quigley and the bucket! It must have been a real game changer for you when scopes started coming out.
Any better?
Post by: JDHasty on November 23, 2016, 01:14:53 PM
How about,Jeez, you must have started out loading for it with black powder that long ago!
I have four plus decades experience shooting the 22-250 and that also by default means that I have forty years experience and then some of people trying to educate me on why something else is better.
Tain't funny McGee!
Shooting varmints back then had have been like Quigley and the bucket! It must have been a real game changer for you when scopes started coming out.
Any better?
What really made a difference is when Henry Ford finally made a car for the masses and I no longer had to walk ten miles (both ways) through snow drifts up past my knees just to get to and from home to the gun club to sight in.
Post by: Bango skank on November 23, 2016, 01:51:25 PM
Post by: theleo on November 23, 2016, 02:08:48 PM
That line is so old that I'm not surprised you used it, but that you messed it up. :o
What really made a difference is when Henry Ford finally made a car for the masses and I no longer had to walk ten miles (both ways) through snow drifts up past my knees just to get to and from home to the gun club to sight in.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 23, 2016, 02:15:30 PM
It's probably changed a few times since he first started using it, I think wagons once had that honor.That line is so old that I'm not surprised you used it, but that you messed it up. :o
What really made a difference is when Henry Ford finally made a car for the masses and I no longer had to walk ten miles (both ways) through snow drifts up past my knees just to get to and from home to the gun club to sight in.
Post by: theleo on November 23, 2016, 02:36:37 PM
Just thought id mention something. Several posts are suggesting .204 or .22mag. Theyre not cougar legal. .22-250 is. Something to consider.So is a 22 hornet but it's no where near the 22-250 in performance.
Post by: theleo on November 23, 2016, 02:44:24 PM
JD is so old that when he said he was going to jump in the Studebaker to go to town he still had to hitch the horses up to it first! :chuckle:It's probably changed a few times since he first started using it, I think wagons once had that honor.That line is so old that I'm not surprised you used it, but that you messed it up. :o
What really made a difference is when Henry Ford finally made a car for the masses and I no longer had to walk ten miles (both ways) through snow drifts up past my knees just to get to and from home to the gun club to sight in.
Post by: Rainpaddle on November 23, 2016, 04:18:57 PM
I'm playing with the idea of buying a 22-250 for a couple of reasons.
1. I want to practice shooting a lot more than I have in the past, without shooting my 7 mag or 7mm-08. The round count on my 7 mag is getting up there, and I'd rather preserve it since it shoots so well, and my 7mm-08 is a very lightweight mountain rifle that gets hot fast, so I can't really shoot all that much with it.
2. Varmints. Never spent much time after them, but I hunted a piece of private ground this fall that was absolutely loaded with them, and the farmer expressed some interest in someone coming in and thinning them a bit. I'm happy to oblige.
3. Smaller lighter - weight gun to pack around in the woods during the off season for the opportunistic coyote, grouse, etc...
I haven't established a budget for this yet, but I'd like to keep the gun under about $600. I can get deals on scopes, so that's not a factor.
Any standouts that you guys would suggest right off the bat?
I had a Browning BLR in 22-250 once. It isn't the tack driver like some bolts are but it was close. Fun to shoot a lever gun in varmint caliber and pack around while scouting or hiking. The caliber and BLR platform seem like an odd pairing but it worked for me for general rifle shooting and the occasional varmint session.
Rob
Post by: JDHasty on November 23, 2016, 06:34:43 PM
JD is so old that when he said he was going to jump in the Studebaker to go to town he still had to hitch the horses up to it first! :chuckle:It's probably changed a few times since he first started using it, I think wagons once had that honor.That line is so old that I'm not surprised you used it, but that you messed it up. :o
What really made a difference is when Henry Ford finally made a car for the masses and I no longer had to walk ten miles (both ways) through snow drifts up past my knees just to get to and from home to the gun club to sight in.
Had to take the wheels off and soak them for a couple days to tighten 'em up first.