Post by: mtn.goat on November 29, 2016, 10:36:05 PM
1. Why are the Razor HD basically double the in investment of the Viper HD? Are they worth it and what makes such a substantial difference? Matierials, polishing, euro glass or???
2. How does the Razor line and, for that matter the Viper line compare to the Euro glass of the Swarovski and Leica variety?
Not only is this not my forte, but I truly haven't been staying up on glass as I've had no plan to upgrade. My wife expressed a serious interest in my HD's so..... I'm on the hunt.
I much appreciate all your knowledge and foresight on this, in advance.... as well as, who have you bought from and been extremely pleased with, recommend buying from etc.
Redneck logic thus far..... (rough #'s). Vipers - $600, Razors - $1200 (or 2 PR. of Vipers). And honestly Swarovski and Leica similar screwy logic... ( 2 PR. of Razors for the same dough) :dunno:
Post by: Bean Counter on November 30, 2016, 02:12:10 AM
Basically you'll get what you pay for, with few exceptions. I haven't looked through the Razors but I've looked through the midrange stuff of Vortex and for the open country hunting I do I could never use it. It might be different if it were just an occasional glance but I look through my optics for 5-8 hours a day. I have high end Nikon optics myself and when I looked through another guys Vortex at the range next to mine it was night and day. All kinds of lateral color fringing (chromatic abberation) and the image just wasn't sharp by comparison. :(
bean counter logic.. rough #'s. How much is one of your days worth and how much will quality optics leverage your hunting days? If my high end optics can help me tag out in 3-4 days in stead of 5-7 and get back to family/work/other things much quicker then a few hundred or even $1,000+ is going to pay for itself in just a season or two. I save my money by shooting older weapons, driving older trucks, wearing older low end clothes, and drinking cheaper beer. There, did I make the cut for redneck finally? :chuckle:
HTH
Post by: Magnum_Willys on November 30, 2016, 05:52:42 AM
Post by: carlyoungs on November 30, 2016, 06:06:34 AM
Post by: Bob33 on November 30, 2016, 06:54:22 AM
Absolutely zero issues or complaints with my gold rings, clarity is spectacular etc.,One might ask why you are looking if you believe your current bino is spectacular.
Everyone's eyes are different, and everyone uses binos differently. If you only glass occasionally and are happy with your Leupolds you might stay with them. Their warranty is equal to anyone's.
I personally prefer Swarovski and high end Nikon glass, but that's meaningless because your eyes may reach different conclusions. If you can, spend a few hours looking through various binoculars at dusk or nighttime and you will notice some differences.
I have a good friend with $300 Leupold binos who can't see any difference between them and $2K Swarovskis. They give me headaches after about 15 seconds.
Post by: JDHasty on November 30, 2016, 11:33:00 AM
Anything above bargains are going to be dielectric coated and BAK 4 so although that is interesting knowledge to have, it isn't what is going to make the difference when deciding between two mid to high level binoculars.
One thing I would do is educate myself on the "spinning globe" or "rolling ball effect" and how some people are affected with it and some are not. If you are looking at binoculars in this price class some will have what are known as "field flattener" lenses in them and some will not. If you are so effected then it does not make sense to purchase a binocular that has that feature when there are other options that will serve you better.
I have spent a sum total of zero hours behind Razor binoculars and can't help ya out with what my impression of them is. I do use a Viper 6x32 a LOT and like it very well, but that is a horse of a different color. You really cannot extrapolate from my experience using that very low powered field binocular to one in the ten or above range.
Post by: JeffRaines on December 01, 2016, 12:17:35 PM
My opinion - Once you get above middle of the road prices ($500~) Vortex really lags. The Vipers aren't $400 better than the Diamondbacks, and the Razors are not $600 better than the Vipers. Through the rest of the month you can find Swaros for only a couple hundred more than the Razors new, and they're worth every penny.
Alternatively, if you don't want to spend that much, I found the conquests to have better glass than the Razors and can be found for $800-900.
You can find demo Swaros for $1300~ which is the route I went. Still get the warranty, and these binos had everything and you couldn't tell they were ever handled. :twocents:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 01, 2016, 12:42:49 PM
Recently stepped up from Diamondbacks to Swaros. In doing so I looked through Vipers, Razors, Zeiss Conquests and Swaro SLC(what I purchased) and ELs.When I looked it was about the opposite for me. I saw huge improvements up to the razors, and just couldn't see the cost benefits of the swaro or Leica at that time.
My opinion - Once you get above middle of the road prices ($500~) Vortex really lags. The Vipers aren't $400 better than the Diamondbacks, and the Razors are not $600 better than the Vipers. Through the rest of the month you can find Swaros for only a couple hundred more than the Razors new, and they're worth every penny.
Alternatively, if you don't want to spend that much, I found the conquests to have better glass than the Razors and can be found for $800-900.
You can find demo Swaros for $1300~ which is the route I went. Still get the warranty, and these binos had everything and you couldn't tell they were ever handled. :twocents:
Different eyes I guess
Post by: Copperwood on December 01, 2016, 12:49:23 PM
Post by: thinkingman on December 01, 2016, 12:50:48 PM
Recently stepped up from Diamondbacks to Swaros. In doing so I looked through Vipers, Razors, Zeiss Conquests and Swaro SLC(what I purchased) and ELs.I agree.
My opinion - Once you get above middle of the road prices ($500~) Vortex really lags. The Vipers aren't $400 better than the Diamondbacks, and the Razors are not $600 better than the Vipers. Through the rest of the month you can find Swaros for only a couple hundred more than the Razors new, and they're worth every penny.
Alternatively, if you don't want to spend that much, I found the conquests to have better glass than the Razors and can be found for $800-900.
You can find demo Swaros for $1300~ which is the route I went. Still get the warranty, and these binos had everything and you couldn't tell they were ever handled. :twocents:
Conquest HDs can be had all day with a US warranty for $800 and that's an easy decision to make.
Post by: JDHasty on December 01, 2016, 01:02:34 PM
I haves pair of 2016 Viper HD in 10x50. I like them better than my leupolds but I didn't think they were as good as everyone has said. I bought a pair of the Swarovski EL 10x42 and I don't think they belong in the same category. Actually I would probably sell my vipers if you are interested. I didn't think the Razors were worth the extra money. Most of this is about preference. My buddy has a cheap $100 pair of bushnells and he thinks I'm an idiot for spending $2k on my ELs. Try out a bunch of them and see which you like better. Now with it getting dark so early, you could easily try them all out in low light situations at the store.
I know people who destroy everything they get their hands on and it doesn't make sense for such an individual to purchase heirloom quality anything. If you take care of what you own I suspect that he is way off base thinking you are an idiot for spending $2K on a binocular. I suspect that he is "projecting." My guess is that he knows himself better than anyone and he knows that irrespective of what he gets his hands on it will be reduced to a pile of crap after the first month and in his case spending more than $100 on a binocular is poor economy.
I don't understand the motivation to destroy, but I don't have to understand it in order to accept it for what it is.
Post by: JeffRaines on December 01, 2016, 05:06:03 PM
Recently stepped up from Diamondbacks to Swaros. In doing so I looked through Vipers, Razors, Zeiss Conquests and Swaro SLC(what I purchased) and ELs.When I looked it was about the opposite for me. I saw huge improvements up to the razors, and just couldn't see the cost benefits of the swaro or Leica at that time.
My opinion - Once you get above middle of the road prices ($500~) Vortex really lags. The Vipers aren't $400 better than the Diamondbacks, and the Razors are not $600 better than the Vipers. Through the rest of the month you can find Swaros for only a couple hundred more than the Razors new, and they're worth every penny.
Alternatively, if you don't want to spend that much, I found the conquests to have better glass than the Razors and can be found for $800-900.
You can find demo Swaros for $1300~ which is the route I went. Still get the warranty, and these binos had everything and you couldn't tell they were ever handled. :twocents:
Different eyes I guess
I mean there were definite improvements, i just couldn't personally justify spending the coin they wanted on the improvements I seen. The way I explained it was looking through a nice pair of binoculars(viper), looking through a really nice pair(razor), and actually being there(swaros)
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 01, 2016, 05:21:57 PM
Post by: JeffRaines on December 01, 2016, 08:57:11 PM
:yeah: I could see enough improvement to justify the added cost of razor. But that jump to sharp wassnt there to me to just off the added cost. Had they been price they could be today I would have made the jump I think.
Yeah, had they not been on sale/demo I probably would've thought twice. I didn't think the ELs were worth the jump in price from the SLCs, either. Nice glass for sure, though.
Post by: JDHasty on December 02, 2016, 08:33:42 AM
:yeah: I could see enough improvement to justify the added cost of razor. But that jump to sharp wassnt there to me to just off the added cost. Had they been price they could be today I would have made the jump I think.
Yeah, had they not been on sale/demo I probably would've thought twice. I didn't think the ELs were worth the jump in price from the SLCs, either. Nice glass for sure, though.
The EL vs SLC choice is exactly the scenario in which I posted this above: One thing I would do is educate myself on the "spinning globe" or "rolling ball effect" and how some people are affected with it and some are not. If you are looking at binoculars in this price class some will have what are known as "field flattener" lenses in them and some will not. If you are so effected then it does not make sense to purchase a binocular that has that feature when there are other options that will serve you better.
There are definitely people out there in which a lower cost SLC is going to perform better for than will the EL or another binocular such as the Nikon EDG that costs more. Most, if not all, of the cost differential is due to the latter incorporating a "field flatterer" lens group that the former lacks. If you are affected by "globe effect" then in "buying up" just because you want the best may actually leave you using an inferior choice for your situation.
Post by: JeffRaines on December 02, 2016, 08:46:22 AM
Post by: mtn.goat on December 02, 2016, 10:33:43 PM
Thank you all once again! Hopefully a great info./ learning thread for others as well.
Post by: JoeE on December 02, 2016, 10:56:54 PM
Post by: JeffRaines on December 03, 2016, 05:28:19 AM
Well, holy crap Thank You ALL for a wealth of great info. thus far!!! I've got a S-ton to learn for sure. I'm watching this thread daily. Jeff would you post or PM me who/ where you got the demo Swaros'?
Thank you all once again! Hopefully a great info./ learning thread for others as well.
Clear out your PMs!
As for general demo deals - Natchez Shooter Supply, Samplelist.com, cameralandny and Red Hawk Rifles are a few to check out. Anytime you need optics take a look - all demo items are sold as new so you still get the factory warranty, you just save money.
Post by: JDHasty on December 03, 2016, 05:36:30 AM
I had a new set of Viper 12x50s and I was not impressed. Sold them in favor of some Leupold binos.
Always remember that most all of the bigger players are happy to have a look at your binocular and will return it to you AT THEIR EXPENSE. It doesn't get much better than that. if you have a binocular that you think is not delivering up to expectations, it can be something being a bit out of whack with it, particularly columation (alignment), and that is easy for them to correct.
Post by: Mtnwalker on December 03, 2016, 07:19:19 AM
Post by: JeffRaines on December 04, 2016, 08:17:31 AM
If you're on a budget don't forget to check out the Zeiss conquest HD's. Bought a pair for my ol man for $1000 and was more than happy with them, now they're on sale for $699, hell of a deal! Spent a week going back and forth between those and my Leica ultravid's on an elk hunt, the differences were almost too small to notice
I found the glass in the Conquests to be better than the Razors, to my eyes at least.
Post by: JPhelps on December 04, 2016, 08:37:20 AM
Multiple times we tested them throughout the hunt. We would switch glass for an entire day to make sure that fatigue was accounted for. Looking at the same exact group of deer or shed horn someone spotted. In the sun in the shade. Into the sun and with the sun at our back. First few minutes of visible light and the last couple minutes at night.
What we found was that two out of three of us preferred to be behind the Razor glass over any other and one preferred the Swaro EL. The Razor glass may give up a little at the edge (which I don't ever look at anyways) but the resolution in the center seemed to be better. The Swaro glass had an advantage all the way to the edge but no one thought that was of great importance and it didn't effect fatigue. The Vipers are good glass for the money but in big country when glassing all day they aren't as good as the Razor or Swaro.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy the "new" razor binos and feel like I was giving anything up to the other glass. My :twocents:
Post by: JDHasty on December 04, 2016, 12:54:25 PM
Just got back from a 9 day trip where we had 10x42 Viper HD, 10x42 Razor HD, 10x42 Swarovski EL and 15x56 Swarovski SLC binoculars that we sat behind for 10 hours a day.
Multiple times we tested them throughout the hunt. We would switch glass for an entire day to make sure that fatigue was accounted for. Looking at the same exact group of deer or shed horn someone spotted. In the sun in the shade. Into the sun and with the sun at our back. First few minutes of visible light and the last couple minutes at night.
What we found was that two out of three of us preferred to be behind the Razor glass over any other and one preferred the Swaro EL. The Razor glass may give up a little at the edge (which I don't ever look at anyways) but the resolution in the center seemed to be better. The Swaro glass had an advantage all the way to the edge but no one thought that was of great importance and it didn't effect fatigue. The Vipers are good glass for the money but in big country when glassing all day they aren't as good as the Razor or Swaro.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy the "new" razor binos and feel like I was giving anything up to the other glass. My :twocents:
Having everything in focus all the way to the edge of the FOV is what field flattener lens group is for.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 06, 2016, 02:54:52 PM
Dang... I was hoping it would flatten the hills for easier walking!Just got back from a 9 day trip where we had 10x42 Viper HD, 10x42 Razor HD, 10x42 Swarovski EL and 15x56 Swarovski SLC binoculars that we sat behind for 10 hours a day.
Multiple times we tested them throughout the hunt. We would switch glass for an entire day to make sure that fatigue was accounted for. Looking at the same exact group of deer or shed horn someone spotted. In the sun in the shade. Into the sun and with the sun at our back. First few minutes of visible light and the last couple minutes at night.
What we found was that two out of three of us preferred to be behind the Razor glass over any other and one preferred the Swaro EL. The Razor glass may give up a little at the edge (which I don't ever look at anyways) but the resolution in the center seemed to be better. The Swaro glass had an advantage all the way to the edge but no one thought that was of great importance and it didn't effect fatigue. The Vipers are good glass for the money but in big country when glassing all day they aren't as good as the Razor or Swaro.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy the "new" razor binos and feel like I was giving anything up to the other glass. My :twocents:
Having everything in focus all the way to the edge of the FOV is what field flattener lens group is for.
Post by: JeffRaines on December 07, 2016, 11:40:20 AM
Dang... I was hoping it would flatten the hills for easier walking!Just got back from a 9 day trip where we had 10x42 Viper HD, 10x42 Razor HD, 10x42 Swarovski EL and 15x56 Swarovski SLC binoculars that we sat behind for 10 hours a day.
Multiple times we tested them throughout the hunt. We would switch glass for an entire day to make sure that fatigue was accounted for. Looking at the same exact group of deer or shed horn someone spotted. In the sun in the shade. Into the sun and with the sun at our back. First few minutes of visible light and the last couple minutes at night.
What we found was that two out of three of us preferred to be behind the Razor glass over any other and one preferred the Swaro EL. The Razor glass may give up a little at the edge (which I don't ever look at anyways) but the resolution in the center seemed to be better. The Swaro glass had an advantage all the way to the edge but no one thought that was of great importance and it didn't effect fatigue. The Vipers are good glass for the money but in big country when glassing all day they aren't as good as the Razor or Swaro.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy the "new" razor binos and feel like I was giving anything up to the other glass. My :twocents:
Having everything in focus all the way to the edge of the FOV is what field flattener lens group is for.
It is called field flattener... thats false advertising, man!