Post by: Ridgeratt on December 19, 2016, 05:51:56 AM
Posted: Dec 18, 2016 12:58 PM PST
Updated: Dec 18, 2016 12:58 PM PST
OLYMPIA, Wash. -
A state firearms database relied upon by law enforcement officers lacks information on the sale of thousands of handguns in Washington in the past two years.
The state Department of Licensing ended September with a backlog of 327,753 pistol transfers to enter into the database used daily by city, county, state and federal authorities for a variety of investigative purposes.
Last week agency employees were inputting make, model, serial number and caliber of weapon on purchases made in 2014, as well as information on those who bought the guns.
Agency leaders predict the backlog, which stood at 106,000 records in November 2013, will reach 385,000 records by June 2017. They are seeking $382,000 in the next state budget to hire a private data entry firm to catch up. Gov. Jay Inslee included the sum in his proposed budget released Dec. 14.
If the department secures the money, the goal is to hire a vendor and erase the backlog by the end of 2017, said agency spokesman Brad Benfield.
"What we need to do is get caught up and make sure it is useful for the purpose outlined in law," he said.
In Washington, the Department of Licensing is tasked with collecting data from sales of handguns by licensed firearms dealers and getting those details into the database.
It also inputs information on people obtaining or renewing a concealed pistol license and those who cannot legally possess a gun, either due to a court order or because they are deemed mentally unfit. Agency officials say this specific information is current.
It's not been easy for the state agency to keep up with gun sales because the number of those keeps climbing.
Licensed firearm dealers sold 67,739 pistols in 2006 and all but 315 of the records got into the database, according to agency documents. In 2012, handgun sales totaled 170,792 and agency staff managed to enter 66,528 into the system.
In its budget request, the department said it receives 240,000 records per year of firearm sales and licenses, 85 percent of which are submitted on paper. In those instances, data must be entered manually, Benfield said.
What concerns agency leaders about the backlog is the potential safety risk of a law enforcement officer not getting "a complete picture of what firearms (a person) may have purchased," Benfield said.
For example, a person who is not supposed to possess a firearm could have bought one at some point in the recent past. The database would be the place to find out but not if the record of the sale is stuck in the backlog, he explained.
"We want our database to be accurate," Benfield said.
And for good reason - it's used a lot.
Officers from city, county, state and federal law enforcement agencies will check the database more than 2 million times this year alone. Agency records show they tapped into it 691,193 times between July 1 and Sept. 30, an average of 7,679 times a day.
"It is an essential need for law enforcement. We wish it was up-to-date because we've got to have that information," said Mitch Barker, executive director of the Washington Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs.
It's a tremendous tool for investigating the history and ownership of a gun, he said.
And in situations where officers recover a weapon that's been stolen, they can check serial numbers in the database to find the legal owner but only if the information is current, he said.
The state agency's firearms database isn't the only available to law enforcement. The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives manages the National Tracing Center which law enforcement officers can use for investigating the source of weapons made in the United States or overseas.
The importance of ensuring timely and accurate information in databases became evident in the conviction of Raymond Fryberg for illegally possessing firearms, including the gun that his son used in the deadly Marysville Pilchuck High School shootings in 2014.
Raymond Fryberg was the subject of a 2002 domestic violence protection order in Tulalip Tribal Court that forbade him from owning guns. But he continued to buy guns without a problem because the order was not entered into any state or federal database that can be checked during firearm purchases and during contacts with police.
In October, Attorney General Bob Ferguson issued a report on access to firearms in Washington in response to a request from the governor. In it, Ferguson wrote the effectiveness of the department of licensing's database "depends on the agency's ability to keep up with the workload of inputting data, and the ability of the agency to communicate that information to those who need it."
Ferguson recommended the governor "determine the best way to ensure that the Washington Department of Licensing's firearms system contains accurate and timely records of pistol transfer applications, alien firearms licenses, and concealed pistol licenses, and that the information is available to those who need it."
Agency leaders' request for funding to deal with the problem has gone unmet for several years. Meanwhile, changes have been made to get data uploaded more efficiently though there is still a need for money to tackle the backlog, Benfield said.
He said lawmakers' reluctance is probably a result of too much demand for a limited supply of dollars after the Great Recession when every agency cut back.
"We feel it is important, but the Legislature has to make a lot of tough decisions each year and hasn't gotten to this one yet," Benfield said.
There is a political element too as some lawmakers and gun rights groups want to see databases collecting information on firearm owners go away, Barker said.
"Funding is a big issue," Barker said. "But there's some political will to not make this work properly. Combine that with the funding concerns and this makes it an easy request to kill."
http://www.khq.com/story/34083570/state-gun-database-lacks-info-on-thousands-of-handgun-sales
Post by: timberfaller on December 19, 2016, 06:57:23 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 19, 2016, 07:11:36 AM
Post by: boneaddict on December 19, 2016, 07:19:07 AM
Post by: CP on December 19, 2016, 07:20:58 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 19, 2016, 07:23:49 AM
I'm sure that the state could find a better use for that $382,000.
Not as far as Insley's concerned. :bash:
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 19, 2016, 07:46:55 AM
I'm sure that the state could find a better use for that $382,000.
I'll do it for $200K.
Oops. Sorry. Lost them in a canoeing accident.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 19, 2016, 07:51:50 AM
$199K, I'll save the taxpayers even more.I'm sure that the state could find a better use for that $382,000.
I'll do it for $200K.
Oops. Sorry. Lost them in a canoeing accident.
"Oh, I can't quite make out that writing or that signature....I think it says 'Paul Allen' or 'Mike Bloomberg'. Man those guys have a lot of guns!" 8)
Post by: 81husky on December 19, 2016, 07:53:22 AM
Post by: cardinalguns on December 19, 2016, 07:54:08 AM
With dealers now entering the records electronically, what is left to do? Unless they have complete idiots working in IT in WA state government, there is no reason they cannot transition dealer entries into their database automatically.
I have been in contact with one of the managers of the firearms licensing system, and he cannot even answer regulatory questions pertaining to I-594 implementation. Not surprising they are struggling to simply enter records.
Post by: Humptulips on December 19, 2016, 08:04:44 AM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 19, 2016, 08:06:54 AM
I was under the impression (apparently false) that the State and Federal government was not allowed to keep a data base. That the 4473 form was used to do the background check, but no specific firearm information was conveyed to the NICS. The 4473 stays at the FFL, and would only be looked at if a gun was used in a crime and info was needed to try and track down an owner. This article proves that wrong, and that data bases are being made to keep track of us all. My fears have been confirmed.
The article is discussing the WA DOL required pistol transfer application forms.
http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firearms/fadealerformfaq.html
But yes, your fears have been confirmed as regards pistol sales, for quite a while, unless you had pre-I-594 transfer that weren't lost in a canoeing accident.
Post by: cardinalguns on December 19, 2016, 08:07:09 AM
I was under the impression (apparently false) that the State and Federal government was not allowed to keep a data base. That the 4473 form was used to do the background check, but no specific firearm information was conveyed to the NICS. The 4473 stays at the FFL, and would only be looked at if a gun was used in a crime and info was needed to try and track down an owner. This article proves that wrong, and that data bases are being made to keep track of us all. My fears have been confirmed.
You need not fear anything except ineptitude at the state level. It is important to separate 4473 forms (federal) from Pistol Transfer Applications (WA state) and long guns from handguns.
You are correct, there is a federal law prohibiting the federal government from establishing a searchable database using names or addresses. This is why ATF is having so much fun storing and sorting 4473 forms in WV: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/10/27/firearms-national-tracing-center-atf/74401060/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/10/27/firearms-national-tracing-center-atf/74401060/)
4473 Forms contain information specific to the buyer and firearm. During a NICS check, only the buyer's data is transmitted and type of transfer (long gun, handgun, sale, or private transfer). The ATF does not see the 4473 until and unless they conduct a trace, 20 years passes and the dealer sends the records in, or the dealer goes out of business. Potentially, the ATF or federal government does not know WHAT you own, only that at one point in time you possessed a firearm.
The states can enact whichever laws they wish to impose on the people- witness Kalifornia and its plethora of firearms laws. In their great liberal wisdom, the legislators in WA have decided we need a handgun database- hence the system mentioned in the article, and the attendant form filled out for handgun purchases (WA State Pistol Transfer Application).
As you may have read, there is so much confusion and backlog of entries that no one knows who owns what, when, and where. Here is a little known fact for you: When local law enforcement conducts a background check on you for a CPL, they conduct a NICS check (federal) and pretty much rely on it as a major basis. Other databases may be looked into, but there are many other priorities that get in the way.
Post by: 81husky on December 19, 2016, 08:33:58 AM
Post by: lamrith on December 19, 2016, 09:38:14 AM
Post by: cardinalguns on December 19, 2016, 09:41:21 AM
Post by: huntnfmly on December 19, 2016, 10:20:34 AM
That's registration and is bs
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 19, 2016, 10:41:16 AM
Post by: Igor on December 19, 2016, 12:15:58 PM
http://www.columbian.com/news/2016/dec/18/state-gun-database-lacks-info-on-thousands-of-handgun-sales/
Post by: csaaphill on December 20, 2016, 04:26:00 AM
I was under the impression (apparently false) that the State and Federal government was not allowed to keep a data base. That the 4473 form was used to do the background check, but no specific firearm information was conveyed to the NICS. The 4473 stays at the FFL, and would only be looked at if a gun was used in a crime and info was needed to try and track down an owner. This article proves that wrong, and that data bases are being made to keep track of us all. My fears have been confirmed.yeah they're not supposed to have a data base but guess they do. >:(
Post by: csaaphill on December 20, 2016, 04:31:44 AM
Post by: cardinalguns on December 21, 2016, 12:52:47 PM
Seems like someone on here last year or so said that the ATF periodically does collect those 4473's before they can be destroyed so....
Technically, on a very narrow basis, there are instances wherein ATF would collect a 4473. In the case of an audit that has numerous serious violations of federal law by the dealer, yes, they might copy the 4473. In the case of a firearms trace, they might also ask for a copy. As for routine collection- no.
Post by: cardinalguns on December 21, 2016, 12:53:51 PM
I was under the impression (apparently false) that the State and Federal government was not allowed to keep a data base. That the 4473 form was used to do the background check, but no specific firearm information was conveyed to the NICS. The 4473 stays at the FFL, and would only be looked at if a gun was used in a crime and info was needed to try and track down an owner. This article proves that wrong, and that data bases are being made to keep track of us all. My fears have been confirmed.yeah they're not supposed to have a data base but guess they do. >:(
We need to remember to keep federal and state issues separate. A state registration database can be established by the state lawmaking apparatus, hence WA state's handgun registration database. The federal government is prohibited from establishing a name/ address searchable database. I won't do the research for everyone, but you can go here: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=The+Firearm+Owners%27+Protection+Act+of+1986 (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=The+Firearm+Owners%27+Protection+Act+of+1986)
Post by: huntnfmly on December 21, 2016, 02:32:23 PM
And tell me when Elvis gets here.
Beldar conehead
Post by: cardinalguns on December 22, 2016, 09:53:21 AM
Uh huh.
And tell me when Elvis gets here.
Beldar conehead
No one is forcing you to believe it- I am merely outlining public law. Lest you think I am drinking Obama Kool-Aid, there is this report out:
http://libertyparkpress.com/atf-illegally-stockpiling-gun-owners-personal-data-judge-blasts-obama-admin-for-reprehensible-lawless/ (http://libertyparkpress.com/atf-illegally-stockpiling-gun-owners-personal-data-judge-blasts-obama-admin-for-reprehensible-lawless/)
If the above report is accurate, it is incumbent upon all gun owners to contact the Office of Inspector General and ask them to take action. Here is the
Waste, Fraud, and Abuse Hotline information: https://oig.justice.gov/hotline/ (https://oig.justice.gov/hotline/)
Post by: huntnfmly on December 22, 2016, 10:16:18 AM
They're not suppose to but they do.
Post by: huntnfmly on December 22, 2016, 10:33:31 AM
Srry couldn't help it
Post by: Special T on December 22, 2016, 11:08:41 AM
Ya I wouldn't be surprised either.
Post by: csaaphill on December 23, 2016, 12:54:28 AM
Uh huh.:chuckle:
And tell me when Elvis gets here.
Beldar conehead
Post by: cardinalguns on December 23, 2016, 09:21:27 AM
Or, to say it so y'all can understand: If some of ya'll were a little smarter, you wouldn't need a gun dealer to show you how to Google up them gubmint rules on that there internet thingy.
Post by: huntnfmly on December 23, 2016, 09:29:30 AM
Post by: csaaphill on December 24, 2016, 12:20:03 AM