Post by: syoungs on January 11, 2017, 06:26:31 PM
05 f250, 3v v10. Fuel pressure runs 39-40# at idle, but will randomly drop down to 3-5#, sometimes at idle, sometimes while driving, which causes the engine to stall. Most of the time it will not restart right away, sometimes it will. letting it sit for 5+ hours and it almost always fires right back up.
I've replaced the fuel pump, fuel pump driver module, and fuel rail pressure sensor. Still having intermittent problem though. Only code is po191, fuel rail pressure sensor .
While working and monitoring pids I noticed the voltage jumping around some, from 13.3-14.2, most times when the truck stalls, voltage is down to 12.2
New alternator is on the way, current one tested bad, new battery is installed. Running Sans alternator, with fresh, new, battery, truck will still stall, at around 12.2-12.5v.
Problem seems to be related to the weather, if it's cold and wet, it happens. Haven't had it happen on a dry day yet.
Anybody have any ideas on where I should start? Gonna start looking at wiring to see if I have a bad wire somewhere under the truck this weekend. Could it possibly just be the crappy electrical system that was causing it?
Thanks in advance!
Post by: cbond3318 on January 11, 2017, 06:29:45 PM
Mine had very similar symptoms , same code thrown , over the coarse of 2 weeks and it was the filter...I never was checking pressures and voltages though. Just figured I'd start at the easiest cheapest part....
Post by: JDHasty on January 11, 2017, 06:59:13 PM
Post by: syoungs on January 11, 2017, 07:04:09 PM
It's a gas rig JDHasty, only the one pump in the tank, which is new.
Post by: 92xj on January 11, 2017, 07:13:22 PM
Post by: syoungs on January 11, 2017, 07:15:48 PM
Post by: Zardoz on January 11, 2017, 07:47:44 PM
Check and clean all ground wire connections. I've seen bad grounds cause all sorts of weird issues. It's a real easy and cheap starting point in the chase and 75percent of the time a main cause of issues.
Kinda related. Years ago my Ford would just quit. After changing a lot of parts and not fixing the problem, I discovered by chance the problem was caused by faulty intermittent connections in the wire connection modules due to corrosion. I disconnect all connection points and cleaned them with a modified finger nail file board. Put some new electrical grease in the and problem solved. The connections all looked good because the corrosion layer was hard to see. :twocents:
Post by: cbond3318 on January 11, 2017, 07:57:18 PM
Post by: cbond3318 on January 11, 2017, 07:59:57 PM
Post by: syoungs on January 11, 2017, 08:20:41 PM
I kind of have the thought that if it is anything outside of the isolated fuel delivery system, you would be showing more than the one code.
This was my thought as well, I do randomly get a code for the evap canister not being able to bleed pressure or something along those lines, I've seen that code one time, cleared it, cleaned up the EVAP system and hasn't been back.
The driver module is new as well, if I can catch it while it's throwing low fuel pressure, I'm hoping to test the supply and ground to the pump, if those are in spec, maybe I'm fighting a bad fuel pump or bad connections in the tank. Really regretting selling my last truck!
Post by: Mark Brenckle on January 11, 2017, 08:32:55 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 11, 2017, 08:36:55 PM
Post by: syoungs on January 11, 2017, 08:43:30 PM
I had an old Nissan that had a similar issue. Never did find the cause. I wired the fuel pump to my running lights and that solved the problem, just had to remember to turn my lights on to drive it...
Did the exact same thing on a old beater Subaru that I had years ago, won't work on this though, it's a returnless fuel system., No regulator in the fuel rail, regulates pressure by turning the pump on and off basically.
Post by: yum tag soup on January 11, 2017, 09:14:34 PM
Post by: Mudman on January 11, 2017, 09:29:41 PM
Post by: syoungs on January 11, 2017, 09:35:32 PM
Post by: birdshooter1189 on January 11, 2017, 10:06:45 PM
I know it's a different engine, but I'd recommend checking that sensor. Should be a rather cheap part. Hopefully it's easy to get to on your engine.
Post by: syoungs on January 11, 2017, 10:08:39 PM
Post by: hollymaster on January 11, 2017, 10:10:00 PM
The correct fix for this is to sell it and buy a dodge :IBCOOL::chuckle:
Found
On
Road
Dead
Need the diesel motor. :tup:
Post by: syoungs on January 11, 2017, 10:31:23 PM
I like the v10 platform, more truck then I'd ever need, and not a daily driver so I don't care that the diesel gets better mpg's.
This specific truck... :bash:
Post by: huntnphool on January 11, 2017, 11:22:40 PM
Sold a perfectly good 7.3 to buy this :yike:
I like the v10 platform, more truck then I'd ever need, and not a daily driver so I don't care that the diesel gets better mpg's.
This specific truck... :bash:
I would have kept the 7.3, I drive mine daily. :dunno:
I'm really hoping that the new alternator will fix it, but I'm not that lucky I don't think. Gonna chase the grounds down this weekend and give them all a cleaning, I'm almost wondering if my winch or amplifiers may be doing something funny as well... I think it's gonna be a long road till she's perfect
A bad alternator is not going to cause your fuel pressure in that truck to drop from 39-40# to 3-5# :twocents:
Post by: JDHasty on January 12, 2017, 03:30:26 AM
Just a thought.
Post by: Zardoz on January 12, 2017, 11:41:06 AM
Here's an idea. An old trick was to put a plastic bag in someone you are at war with' fuel tank. The siphon would suck it up around the intake cutting off fuel flow and killing the engine. Then after sitting for a while the bag without suction keeping it in place the bag Seoul drift free allowing the engine to start and totally frustrating the person trying to track down the issue.
Just a thought.
Is that experience speaking? :chuckle:
Post by: JDHasty on January 12, 2017, 12:27:40 PM
Here's an idea. An old trick was to put a plastic bag in someone you are at war with' fuel tank. The siphon would suck it up around the intake cutting off fuel flow and killing the engine. Then after sitting for a while the bag without suction keeping it in place the bag Seoul drift free allowing the engine to start and totally frustrating the person trying to track down the issue.
Just a thought.
Is that experience speaking? :chuckle:
Yes, it happened to my boss. When he finally found out what the problem was he was livid. The mechanic who finally fixed the problem said that it was an old trick and it was something he always checked for after first encountering it a couple decades earlier.
Post by: syoungs on January 12, 2017, 01:09:44 PM
Haven't looked into it to much yet, hopefully i can find a cheap used one, if not I'm gonna scrap the car and start over.
Post by: Evil_EdwardO on January 12, 2017, 02:04:24 PM
Post by: coachcw on January 13, 2017, 06:41:12 AM
Post by: coachcw on January 13, 2017, 06:49:06 AM
Post by: syoungs on January 13, 2017, 06:33:48 PM
Post by: syoungs on January 14, 2017, 11:30:10 AM
Post by: syoungs on January 14, 2017, 03:40:18 PM
I replaced the alternator and battery, charging system checks out perfect now, where it was very finicky before, somtimes charging at 12.x other times right at 14.0v. new alternator is putting out 13.9-14.1
replaced the crank sensor, did not have a chance to test before I replaced, no one here to crank on the engine, and not having long enough test leads, but Ive gambled more then 25$ on a lot worse. Old crank sensor did collect quite a bit of metal shavings on the magnet, and the magnet was recessed about 1/16 of an inch on one side, like it wasn't built plumb.
I also tore through the grounds that the fuel system components use, cleaned them all, they were not terrible, but there was some buildup on them.
i replaced the battery terminals with military style, and crimped new lugs onto all the battery wiring to match. the old terminals looked ok on the outside, but they were pretty hammered after they were removed and inspected closer. also cleaned main battery ground points.
started truck, started easier and faster then it has sense ive owned it. let it idle for 10 min in the shop, all sensors appeared rock steady on the monitor, so I took it outside in the cold and the snow, and let it idle for approx 45 minutes. with no issues showing, i went ahead and road tested it. runs with more power, sounds better in the high rpm band,and showed no issues.
hopefully it is fixed! Dont know if it was the electrical system or the crank sensor that did it, hopefully i am not being fooled by randomness here and it keeps running good!
Post by: Timberstalker on January 14, 2017, 03:48:54 PM
Post by: cbond3318 on January 14, 2017, 03:54:29 PM
Grabbed a short term replacement at P.A.W and then the cold snap killed my battery. Think I got it all worked out but kind of strange chain of events the way it showed itself. If not, your shop heated? :chuckle:
It's been about 6 months since I replaced a COP so, that should be coming soon. :chuckle:
Post by: cooltimber on January 14, 2017, 03:57:42 PM
well all the wiring for the fuel pump checks out, couldnt get the truck to exhibit the same symptoms that it was showing before.good job.thats how its done..now go get some yotes lol
I replaced the alternator and battery, charging system checks out perfect now, where it was very finicky before, somtimes charging at 12.x other times right at 14.0v. new alternator is putting out 13.9-14.1
replaced the crank sensor, did not have a chance to test before I replaced, no one here to crank on the engine, and not having long enough test leads, but Ive gambled more then 25$ on a lot worse. Old crank sensor did collect quite a bit of metal shavings on the magnet, and the magnet was recessed about 1/16 of an inch on one side, like it wasn't built plumb.
I also tore through the grounds that the fuel system components use, cleaned them all, they were not terrible, but there was some buildup on them.
i replaced the battery terminals with military style, and crimped new lugs onto all the battery wiring to match. the old terminals looked ok on the outside, but they were pretty hammered after they were removed and inspected closer. also cleaned main battery ground points.
started truck, started easier and faster then it has sense ive owned it. let it idle for 10 min in the shop, all sensors appeared rock steady on the monitor, so I took it outside in the cold and the snow, and let it idle for approx 45 minutes. with no issues showing, i went ahead and road tested it. runs with more power, sounds better in the high rpm band,and showed no issues.
hopefully it is fixed! Dont know if it was the electrical system or the crank sensor that did it, hopefully i am not being fooled by randomness here and it keeps running good!
Post by: huntnphool on January 14, 2017, 07:17:52 PM
well all the wiring for the fuel pump checks out, couldnt get the truck to exhibit the same symptoms that it was showing before.
I replaced the alternator and battery, charging system checks out perfect now, where it was very finicky before, somtimes charging at 12.x other times right at 14.0v. new alternator is putting out 13.9-14.1
replaced the crank sensor, did not have a chance to test before I replaced, no one here to crank on the engine, and not having long enough test leads, but Ive gambled more then 25$ on a lot worse. Old crank sensor did collect quite a bit of metal shavings on the magnet, and the magnet was recessed about 1/16 of an inch on one side, like it wasn't built plumb.
I also tore through the grounds that the fuel system components use, cleaned them all, they were not terrible, but there was some buildup on them.
i replaced the battery terminals with military style, and crimped new lugs onto all the battery wiring to match. the old terminals looked ok on the outside, but they were pretty hammered after they were removed and inspected closer. also cleaned main battery ground points.
started truck, started easier and faster then it has sense ive owned it. let it idle for 10 min in the shop, all sensors appeared rock steady on the monitor, so I took it outside in the cold and the snow, and let it idle for approx 45 minutes. with no issues showing, i went ahead and road tested it. runs with more power, sounds better in the high rpm band,and showed no issues.
hopefully it is fixed! Dont know if it was the electrical system or the crank sensor that did it, hopefully i am not being fooled by randomness here and it keeps running good!
Crank sensor or cam position sensor?
Hope you got it fixed. :tup:
Post by: syoungs on January 14, 2017, 07:56:57 PM
Nice, hope you got it. Just the other day I fought a toast alternator in my 03' 350 V10,
Grabbed a short term replacement at P.A.W and then the cold snap killed my battery. Think I got it all worked out but kind of strange chain of events the way it showed itself. If not, your shop heated? :chuckle:
It's been about 6 months since I replaced a COP so, that should be coming soon. :chuckle:
Shop is heated, and getting to be well equiped, your welcome to come over anytime :tup:
It was crankshaft sensor phool.
Post by: Night goat on January 14, 2017, 08:03:46 PM
Post by: syoungs on January 15, 2017, 12:35:30 AM
yall know what "Ford" stands for right?
Yep. First on race day :IBCOOL:
Post by: coachcw on January 15, 2017, 07:17:22 AM
Post by: syoungs on January 15, 2017, 03:05:16 PM
I hope you got it. The crank sensor won't cause the fuel pressure drop though?
Yeah I agree it wouldn't cause pressure drop, I think cleaning up the electrical system is what fixed the fuel pressure issue. My experience with other Ford modulars has shown a bad charging system plays havoc with these things.
I forgot to mention I also took apart and cleaned every electrical sensor connection that I could find. Maybe that did it...
Or maybe I'm fooled by randomness, and it's just running good at this point, and will fail again. Unfortunately until something else fails, all testing shows everything working as it should be. :dunno:
I did buy AAA, cause I don't trust the thing yet! I parked it outside last night, haven't got to the shop today to see how it will react when fully cold. Fingers crossed.
Post by: coachcw on January 15, 2017, 07:47:27 PM
Post by: 92xj on January 15, 2017, 08:18:44 PM
I'm sticking with the grounds. :chuckle:
Post by: syoungs on January 15, 2017, 08:46:52 PM
Still don't trust it enough to drive it out to work, gonna put some more miles on it around town first.
Now on to the Subaru, and the Ford 6.0 repairs... Gonna be a busy few weeks it seems!
Post by: syoungs on January 23, 2017, 09:20:53 AM
Trucks on the side of the road with a po191 code....
Guess it's time to drop the $$ on autoenginuity so I can start looking more in depth, I've got a gut feeling that the fuel pump relay may have issues, which is integrated I to the fuse box :bash:
Post by: coachcw on January 23, 2017, 09:36:09 AM
Post by: cbond3318 on January 23, 2017, 09:37:30 AM
Cory
509 947 3363
Post by: Woodchuck on January 23, 2017, 09:37:47 AM
go back and look at my reply # 27 and follow it :tup::yeah:
Post by: syoungs on January 23, 2017, 09:40:54 AM
go back and look at my reply # 27 and follow it :tup:
Now that it's in a failed mode I will be able to :tup:
Post by: syoungs on January 23, 2017, 09:42:14 AM
That sucks man. Let me know if you need a ride or a tow. I'm around town today with nothing going on....
Cory
509 947 3363
I appreciate that, truck will come home via AAA, luckily a friend was on the way to work right behind me and picked me up.
Post by: syoungs on January 23, 2017, 09:58:10 AM
go back and look at my reply # 27 and follow it :tup:
Now that it's in a failed mode I will be able to :tup:
With the fuel pump relay being integral to the fuse panel, how would I go about jumping it?
Post by: coachcw on January 23, 2017, 12:42:27 PM
Post by: C-Money on January 23, 2017, 12:57:05 PM
Post by: syoungs on January 24, 2017, 10:00:10 PM
Once again it fired right up after the tow truck ride, good voltage all the way back to the fpdm, when running.
I did poke and prod around the central junction box, tapping it with a mallet affected fuel pressure, wiggling wires also affected fuel pressure.
I think I'm starting to narrow it down. Truck died and wouldn't restart, tossed the towel for the night.
I might bypass the entire electrical system by providing batt voltage straight to fpdm to see how it reacts, and start inspecting wire harnesses, I've got a hunch the selenoids may be weak, if so I'll mcgyver a aftermarket selenoid, bypassing the cjb.
Post by: Timberstalker on January 31, 2017, 04:21:21 PM
Post by: JJB11B on January 31, 2017, 05:10:14 PM
you wouldn't be having these issues had you sold the last one to me, Its KARMA. I'm kidding. Everything I could think of had already been said here, Hope you get it sorted out man. Sorry to hear thisI kind of have the thought that if it is anything outside of the isolated fuel delivery system, you would be showing more than the one code.
This was my thought as well, I do randomly get a code for the evap canister not being able to bleed pressure or something along those lines, I've seen that code one time, cleared it, cleaned up the EVAP system and hasn't been back.
The driver module is new as well, if I can catch it while it's throwing low fuel pressure, I'm hoping to test the supply and ground to the pump, if those are in spec, maybe I'm fighting a bad fuel pump or bad connections in the tank. Really regretting selling my last truck!
Post by: syoungs on February 13, 2017, 12:36:17 PM
Still haven't fixed it, but this time its just from a lack of trying, my Subaru DD spit a tranny right after this one broke, so I concentrated on getting that back on the road.
got my buddies 6.0 tore apart right now, soon as that's done this weekend im going to start on my ford again.
where I am at with it though;
Last time it broke down, I was able to check voltage from the central junction box, to the fuel pressure driver module. all was perfect. before I could get to check the fuel pump connection everything started working good again :bash:
This weekend while towing my buddies 6.0 around the property and getting it staged in the shop for repairs, the damn truck broke again, this is the first time it has done it with another body there, I tried restarting, cranking while playing with the under dash harness ( at one point it seemed wiggling that harness effected fuel pressure like there was a short), and finally, the ol tap on the gas tank while its turning over. had my buddy crank on it, as soon as I tapped the fuel tank, it fired right up. Did this twice in a 10 minute period.
SOOO.... back to square one. It needs a fuel pump. I used a replacement pump from shucks, im guessing it was not the proper pump to be used on the ford returnless fuel system, browsing mustang forums (same fuel system design), people talk about a pump that when cycled constantly, will burn out in very short order.
Im gonna order a full replacement setup, probably a motorcraft one, even though the 450$ price tag is hard to swallow, unless someone can offer some first hand experience with a certain brand they have total faith in...
Good news is I have finally struck a deal with my buddy, after his truck is running, we are going to exchange lift kits, I have a 6" kit, and 38" tires, he has a small leveling kit and 35s, gonna order some 295/70r18 to get closer to stock size, hopefully improving the 8.6 mpg :yike:
Post by: syoungs on March 24, 2017, 06:23:39 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi901.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac212%2Fwadeyoungs%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FFB_IMG_1490388380596.jpg&hash=58a1b0deefd928b554ca2778d2b5e862bae1d78a) (http://s901.photobucket.com/user/wadeyoungs/media/Mobile%20Uploads/FB_IMG_1490388380596.jpg.html)
So after triple testing circuits, and load testing the circuit for the fuel pump, I succumbed and bought a new pump assembly. Was going to buy motorcraft, but couldn't justify the 200$+ difference from bosch.
Think the fuel pump was the problem. With the tank on the bench the old pump would appear to flow a decent amount of fuel (don't have a flow gauge or wayy to check pressure), but was rattling and sounded like it was cavatating bad. It would draw 3.5 amps with the tank over 1/2 full. After the tank would drop below the level of the fuel module, it would fall on its face, pump out the module capacity and barely flow any fuel, drawing 2.8 amps.
Put the new Bosch unit it. Draws 5.7 amps, I'm gonna guess at twice the flow, and better pressure. The new pump is dead quiet as well. It'll still pump out the module and flow less amount, but not nearly as bad as the old pump, and sense this system pulses the fuel pump to control pressure, I think it is operating within it's designed limitations.
So, with any luck, the truck will be fixed! Also have a light bar I'm going to mount, possibly put my CB in, though not sure if this truck will get one or not, and apply my new tailgate cover :tup:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi901.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac212%2Fwadeyoungs%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F_3-1.jpg&hash=f631b1cc2f541e7928d9d8199916422cadde4f9c) (http://s901.photobucket.com/user/wadeyoungs/media/Mobile%20Uploads/_3-1.jpg.html)
Next few weeks is getting new, smaller, tires, and hopefully a reduction from 6" lift to just a leveling kit.
Post by: 2labs on March 24, 2017, 06:27:42 PM
Post by: syoungs on March 24, 2017, 07:08:16 PM
And I still don't fully regret it :yike:
I loved the 7.3, but I like cheap oil changes, getting gas everywhere, no smelly fuel.... The list goes on lol. The truck is in way better shape than the 7.3 was, wife wanted me to get something nice. Happy wife, happy life.
Post by: 2labs on March 24, 2017, 07:17:00 PM
Post by: follow maggie on March 24, 2017, 10:45:20 PM
Post by: syoungs on March 25, 2017, 10:17:36 AM
Understood, carry on! :tup:
In the first 2 months you better believe I almost begged him to sell it back though, sounds like he's enjoying it, gonna be a solid truck for a long while yet.