Post by: wheels on January 13, 2017, 10:12:57 AM
thoughts ?
Post by: Tbar on January 13, 2017, 10:16:29 AM
Post by: Katmai Guy on January 13, 2017, 10:18:16 AM
Post by: Tbar on January 13, 2017, 10:24:29 AM
Post by: Tbar on January 13, 2017, 10:29:06 AM
Not sure if the harvest of nannys is due to mis identification or the fact that a person has drawn an OIL tag and has only seen nannys or cant get to the billies and decides to shoot one. It is an Any goat tag.One of the reasons is an any goat tag is because of the difficulty identifying . If you care about conservation and hope some day it will not be an oil tag, the wise thing to do is lay off of nannies whenever possible.
Post by: zoorda on January 14, 2017, 09:50:23 AM
Post by: wheels on January 14, 2017, 10:10:25 AM
Post by: blacktailer on January 16, 2017, 03:41:55 PM
Post by: Katmai Guy on January 16, 2017, 04:36:16 PM
Also goes back to to many hunters, not enough animals. :twocents:
Post by: RB on January 18, 2017, 11:12:40 PM
When I drew my Mt Goat tag in 2015 in Washington, I was given a goat gender identification pamphlet and a dvd with the test. They were labeled Alaskan Fish and Game.
:yeah:
Me too :)
Post by: RB on January 18, 2017, 11:20:39 PM
Not sure if the harvest of nannys is due to mis identification or the fact that a person has drawn an OIL tag and has only seen nannys or cant get to the billies and decides to shoot one. It is an Any goat tag.One of the reasons is an any goat tag is because of the difficulty identifying . If you care about conservation and hope some day it will not be an oil tag, the wise thing to do is lay off of nannies whenever possible.
If a guy has the time it is fairly easy to identify a Billy using a spotting scope, wait for him to turn and look for the scrotum. Look at diameter at base of horns and curvature, nannies turn slightly at the ends. In Washington there are very few tags and odds are even if there are 2-3 tags in the area not every tag holder is going to be on the same ridge at the same time, so it should be fairly easy to take your time and know 100% it is a Billy. :twocents:
Post by: blacktailer on January 19, 2017, 09:24:31 AM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on January 19, 2017, 10:37:57 AM
Another factor down here is age of the hunter and the fact someone has been throwing in their $ for 20+ years and finally draws that OIL. Most of those people are gonna shoot whatever is available because they will may never get a second chance. My observations of a small cross section of the tag holders has been they are not even really into hunting anymore, they just sent in their application every year like a lottery ticket. If they get a 3-year old nanny they are stoked!
Post by: jackelope on January 19, 2017, 11:38:06 AM
Not sure if the harvest of nannys is due to mis identification or the fact that a person has drawn an OIL tag and has only seen nannys or cant get to the billies and decides to shoot one. It is an Any goat tag.One of the reasons is an any goat tag is because of the difficulty identifying . If you care about conservation and hope some day it will not be an oil tag, the wise thing to do is lay off of nannies whenever possible.
If a guy has the time it is fairly easy to identify a Billy using a spotting scope, wait for him to turn and look for the scrotum. Look at diameter at base of horns and curvature, nannies turn slightly at the ends. In Washington there are very few tags and odds are even if there are 2-3 tags in the area not every tag holder is going to be on the same ridge at the same time, so it should be fairly easy to take your time and know 100% it is a Billy. :twocents:
Wait for them to pee is the 100% way to tell if you can't see the balls.
Well said.Not sure if the harvest of nannys is due to mis identification or the fact that a person has drawn an OIL tag and has only seen nannys or cant get to the billies and decides to shoot one. It is an Any goat tag.One of the reasons is an any goat tag is because of the difficulty identifying . If you care about conservation and hope some day it will not be an oil tag, the wise thing to do is lay off of nannies whenever possible.
If it was a billy only tag, it would be a crime if someone killed a nanny and that's the problem I guess. Proper ID is tough. Just like bears...you have to know what you're looking at in order to tell boar or sow.
Post by: jackelope on January 19, 2017, 11:39:30 AM
Agreed RB. It sure should be with minimal effort. Pretty amazing how many nannies have been killed in our region the past few years. A couple of them I know were mistakes but wonder if the others simply didn't know or didn't care... Either way it's a personal decision but definitely affects the management of a fragile species when harvest data is entered...
Someone sees a goat and has a OIL tag in their pocket and just wants to fill it. Sees a goat, sees big horns, gets excited, doesn't want to risk losing the shot opportunity, don't care if it's a nanny or a billy as long as they fill their tag, greed, etc.
Post by: RB on January 19, 2017, 09:09:24 PM
Agreed RB. It sure should be with minimal effort. Pretty amazing how many nannies have been killed in our region the past few years. A couple of them I know were mistakes but wonder if the others simply didn't know or didn't care... Either way it's a personal decision but definitely affects the management of a fragile species when harvest data is entered...
Someone sees a goat and has a OIL tag in their pocket and just wants to fill it. Sees a goat, sees big horns, gets excited, doesn't want to risk losing the shot opportunity, don't care if it's a nanny or a billy as long as they fill their tag, greed, etc.
This Nanny I believe was actually bigger than the Billy I shot, both in horn length and body size, but even if this was the only goat seen I would not shoot it even though by the book I can. It is a personal choice even after waiting over 20 years to get the tag. Yes I understand there are times a guy just does not have the time to set up a scope and watch to make 100% due to terrain and other factors, but it is better for the overall good of the herd to do the best to identify a Billy/Nanny.
Post by: jackelope on January 20, 2017, 09:52:43 AM
Might be wrong there. There have been some nanny pics posted on here with some real long horns.
Post by: j_h_nimrod on January 20, 2017, 04:34:33 PM
I think it's not too uncommon for mature nanny goats to have longer horns than some billies. The mass is where the difference is.
Might be wrong there. There have been some nanny pics posted on here with some real long horns.
It is fairly common, I have seen (put tape on ) a few nannies with horns over 11" and heard of some in the 12" range.
Post by: Buzz2401 on January 20, 2017, 04:40:32 PM
Post by: Tbar on January 20, 2017, 07:59:27 PM
Make it Billy only but if you do actually shoot a nanny you just lose a certain amount of points towards other tags you have been putting in for. Say maybe you lose 4 points across the spectrum. That way there is incentive to not shoot nannies yet you aren't crucifying a guy who makes a mistake or just can't find a billy.It's just not that easy. A Billy only season is not feasible for a number of reasons. In some cases the shooting of a nanny is (and should) be celebrated. Taking points or punishing someone would not change things. In a perfect world one would train accordingly (some do), educate themselves (some do), and pay close attention to conservation (again some do). Many do none of the above however! The quota with assigned points is loosely in play, that model makes sense.
The reality is goats live in the most brutal environment in our region. This is not for everyone but anyone can draw a tag. To me sharing the air with these majestic creatures is always worth the price of admission. That said with the reality of likelihood of drawing, actually the likelihood of not drawing is the reality. When many people draw they are well past their prime and have paid their dues many times over. Should we discount or punish someone a generation or two older? There are many factors that would be wrong to generalize or judge (that is just one example).
All that said, far too many nannies are being harvested unnecessarily! Although it may not ever be something besides an oil tag, people are losing opportunity. This thread is an excellent example of what we need. Education of tag holders on both conservation and identification will more than likely have the desired effect of expanded opportunity. If tag holders are aware of the residual effects of nanny harvest I really feel the majority would do their due diligence to target Billy's. This still would not eliminate nanny harvest but something more than a permit packet with literature would be nice.
Post by: Buzz2401 on January 20, 2017, 08:10:03 PM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on January 20, 2017, 08:20:04 PM
Make it Billy only but if you do actually shoot a nanny you just lose a certain amount of points towards other tags you have been putting in for. Say maybe you lose 4 points across the spectrum. That way there is incentive to not shoot nannies yet you aren't crucifying a guy who makes a mistake or just can't find a billy.It's just not that easy. A Billy only season is not feasible for a number of reasons. In some cases the shooting of a nanny is (and should) be celebrated. Taking points or punishing someone would not change things. In a perfect world one would train accordingly (some do), educate themselves (some do), and pay close attention to conservation (again some do). Many do none of the above however! The quota with assigned points is loosely in play, that model makes sense.
The reality is goats live in the most brutal environment in our region. This is not for everyone but anyone can draw a tag. To me sharing the air with these majestic creatures is always worth the price of admission. That said with the reality of likelihood of drawing, actually the likelihood of not drawing is the reality. When many people draw they are well past their prime and have paid their dues many times over. Should we discount or punish someone a generation or two older? There are many factors that would be wrong to generalize or judge (that is just one example).
All that said, far too many nannies are being harvested unnecessarily! Although it may not ever be something besides an oil tag, people are losing opportunity. This thread is an excellent example of what we need. Education of tag holders on both conservation and identification will more than likely have the desired effect of expanded opportunity. If tag holders are eaware of the residual effects of nanny harvest I really feel the majority would do their due diligence to target Billy's. This still would not eliminate nanny harvest but something more than a permit packet with literature would be nice.
This is just not so, there is no incentive other than moral superiority to not harvest a nanny. Especially when nannys taste so much better than most Billy's!
Also consider that there is an annual total number of tags less than 1% of the total population. Regardless of what the statisticians say, the minuscule nanny harvest is not a real factor in the population growth and dynamics of the species in WA state. There are much more crucial considerations for population growth in goat populations.
Post by: Tbar on January 20, 2017, 08:32:44 PM
JH I'm not trying to argue. There is no intended moral superiority either from me. The reality is nanny harvest is a factor in tag allocations, period. If, and I emphasize if, there is a push for a higher harvest rate (4% is sustainable) there has to be a heavily weighted history of responsible billy harvest.
Post by: shanevg on February 06, 2017, 12:23:33 PM
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=goatidentification.harvestmales
JH I'm not trying to argue. There is no intended moral superiority either from me. The reality is nanny harvest is a factor in tag allocations, period. If, and I emphasize if, there is a push for a higher harvest rate (4% is sustainable) there has to be a heavily weighted history of responsible billy harvest.
:yeah:
One thing a lot of people aren't aware of is that nannies have higher reproductive rates the older they get. Most nannies are not reproducing until age 4 or 5 and can and do successfully reproduce until age 12-14. I see posts of hunters who shoot nannies saying they shot a "dry nanny" when in reality that more than likely means they shot a young nanny which is even worse for the population.
Post by: White Pass Outfitters on March 17, 2017, 08:38:13 AM