Post by: Mtnwalker on February 18, 2017, 02:27:34 PM
https://untamedradio.podbean.com/e/the-demise-of-the-willapa
Post by: WSU on February 18, 2017, 03:49:47 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 18, 2017, 04:59:26 PM
Pretty widely known. Forks creek has a huge straying problem. Wdfw mismanaged that bay for the benefit of the gill nets for so long that drastic changes are really the only way to comply with the requirements for hatchery reform.
Oh do tell. Please expound on this mismanagement and how it was for the benefit of the gill nets. I can't wait to hear all of your expertise.
Post by: WSU on February 18, 2017, 05:23:39 PM
Mismanagement is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. If you want lots of hatchery fish to net then wdfw did well. If you want wild fish and compliance with state law wdfw did poorly.
What's your expert opinion?
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 18, 2017, 06:07:21 PM
Post by: WSU on February 18, 2017, 06:12:04 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 18, 2017, 09:55:22 PM
Forks creek has no real way to get hatchery fish out of the river. Wdfw released millions of fish specifically to gillnet the bay damn near constantly from August to December. All done knowing they netted the crap out of any wild fish and knowing they couldn't remove the hatchery fish that escaped the gill nets.
Mismanagement is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. If you want lots of hatchery fish to net then wdfw did well. If you want wild fish and compliance with state law wdfw did poorly.
What's your expert opinion?
So let me get this straight. First you are complaining that they produced a lot of fish for commercials to net. (and also for sporties to catch. And now you are complaining because they aren't producing those same fish?
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 18, 2017, 09:58:13 PM
Post by: WSU on February 19, 2017, 08:21:38 AM
My point was that the reduction is required due to how wdfw managed the hatchery program and commercial seasons. They had to be sued to correct what they were doing. Make no mistake, wdfw knew what it was doing and did it to provide the commercials with fish to net. Wdfw's own study told them a 'selective' hill net fishery didn't work because none of the fish released survived. Wdfw's solution was to ignore the problem and lie to the public in order to allow netting. This reduction is a result of that past management.
Post by: WSU on February 19, 2017, 08:33:32 AM
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/mb/sk/pdf/Report_8.pdf
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 19, 2017, 12:53:06 PM
Pretty widely known. Forks creek has a huge straying problem. Wdfw mismanaged that bay for the benefit of the gill nets for so long that drastic changes are really the only way to comply with the requirements for hatchery reform.
All hatcheries have a straying problem. So moving the production to another hatchery does nothing to address that problem. Now if you want to get rid of hatcheries and get serious about the real problems facing wild salmon such as logging and farming and pesticides and herbicides and dams, then we might have something to agree upon.
Post by: WSU on February 19, 2017, 03:19:18 PM
And nice dodge by the way. Don't like the facts? Just point the finger at a different group and act like your own actions aren't the problem. One of the very real problems facing salmon is that we commercially harvest damn near all of them before they can spawn.
Post by: Harbor_hunter on February 19, 2017, 03:27:12 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 19, 2017, 09:32:47 PM
Not all as bad as Forks Creek or even close. And I am definitely not anti-hatchery. Do you know why production was moved? Do you know why releases were reduced in the willipa specifically?
And nice dodge by the way. Don't like the facts? Just point the finger at a different group and act like your own actions aren't the problem. One of the very real problems facing salmon is that we commercially harvest damn near all of them before they can spawn.
No dodge. Pointing out serious problems for wild stocks. Hatcheries are near the top. Well managed wild stocks can be exploited. Washington's are not well managed. It doesn't have anything to do with harvest. It has to do with production and hatcheries have hidden the fact that once world class rivers don't have near the production that they should. Even systems that have no commercial effort have suffered. As long as hatcheries are leaned on, it will never change. Hatcheries should only be used sparingly to enhance wild runs. They should never be used as the end all.
Post by: grundy53 on February 20, 2017, 08:05:28 AM
Forks creek has no real way to get hatchery fish out of the river. Wdfw released millions of fish specifically to gillnet the bay damn near constantly from August to December. All done knowing they netted the crap out of any wild fish and knowing they couldn't remove the hatchery fish that escaped the gill nets.Have you ever been to the forks creek hatchery? It's absurd to say they don't have any real way to get hatchery fish out of the river. They definitely do.
Mismanagement is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. If you want lots of hatchery fish to net then wdfw did well. If you want wild fish and compliance with state law wdfw did poorly.
What's your expert opinion?
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: WSU on February 20, 2017, 08:59:30 AM
Forks creek has no real way to get hatchery fish out of the river. Wdfw released millions of fish specifically to gillnet the bay damn near constantly from August to December. All done knowing they netted the crap out of any wild fish and knowing they couldn't remove the hatchery fish that escaped the gill nets.Have you ever been to the forks creek hatchery? It's absurd to say they don't have any real way to get hatchery fish out of the river. They definitely do.
Mismanagement is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. If you want lots of hatchery fish to net then wdfw did well. If you want wild fish and compliance with state law wdfw did poorly.
What's your expert opinion?
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Yes. And I agree my statement may be poorly worded. My understanding is that the straying problem is created by the fish, especially chinook, not going up the tiny creek and instead spawning in the main river.
Post by: WSU on February 20, 2017, 09:16:19 AM
Not all as bad as Forks Creek or even close. And I am definitely not anti-hatchery. Do you know why production was moved? Do you know why releases were reduced in the willipa specifically?
And nice dodge by the way. Don't like the facts? Just point the finger at a different group and act like your own actions aren't the problem. One of the very real problems facing salmon is that we commercially harvest damn near all of them before they can spawn.
No dodge. Pointing out serious problems for wild stocks. Hatcheries are near the top. Well managed wild stocks can be exploited. Washington's are not well managed. It doesn't have anything to do with harvest. It has to do with production and hatcheries have hidden the fact that once world class rivers don't have near the production that they should. Even systems that have no commercial effort have suffered. As long as hatcheries are leaned on, it will never change. Hatcheries should only be used sparingly to enhance wild runs. They should never be used as the end all.
I agree that hatcheries are at times part of the problem. So is habitat. But saying harvest isn't part of the problem is simply dead wrong. This is especially true in willipa. Even rivers without a gillnet fishery are heavily harvest in Alaska troll fisheries and in Canada. Often a huge percent of our fish are harvested commercially north of washington's boarder. Lots are also harvested commercially here in troll fisheries.
Post by: grundy53 on February 20, 2017, 09:24:14 AM
That makes more sense.Forks creek has no real way to get hatchery fish out of the river. Wdfw released millions of fish specifically to gillnet the bay damn near constantly from August to December. All done knowing they netted the crap out of any wild fish and knowing they couldn't remove the hatchery fish that escaped the gill nets.Have you ever been to the forks creek hatchery? It's absurd to say they don't have any real way to get hatchery fish out of the river. They definitely do.
Mismanagement is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. If you want lots of hatchery fish to net then wdfw did well. If you want wild fish and compliance with state law wdfw did poorly.
What's your expert opinion?
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Yes. And I agree my statement may be poorly worded. My understanding is that the straying problem is created by the fish, especially chinook, not going up the tiny creek and instead spawning in the main river.
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: WAPatriot on February 20, 2017, 09:29:09 AM
Post by: WSU on February 20, 2017, 09:46:46 AM
Last year for the derby my buddy and I caught 6 wilds over two days. I think the Willipa hatcheries aren't clipping a very high percent of fish.
Probably dip ins, as the locals call them. Lots of fish bound for the Columbia and elsewhere enter the bay, especially when there is a lot of bait in the bay.
Post by: WSU on February 21, 2017, 07:59:15 AM
http://www.thedailyworld.com/news/grays-harbor-willapa-bay-salmon-discussed-at-feb-11-commission-meeting/
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 21, 2017, 08:07:37 AM
But straying isn't a problem biologically. It is completely natural to those species and keeps them healthy. A certain percentage will stray to seek out new places to colonize. The mixing of the genes gives all of them increased immune protection. If it wasn't for the straying, there would be tens of thousands of different types of salmon.Forks creek has no real way to get hatchery fish out of the river. Wdfw released millions of fish specifically to gillnet the bay damn near constantly from August to December. All done knowing they netted the crap out of any wild fish and knowing they couldn't remove the hatchery fish that escaped the gill nets.Have you ever been to the forks creek hatchery? It's absurd to say they don't have any real way to get hatchery fish out of the river. They definitely do.
Mismanagement is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. If you want lots of hatchery fish to net then wdfw did well. If you want wild fish and compliance with state law wdfw did poorly.
What's your expert opinion?
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Yes. And I agree my statement may be poorly worded. My understanding is that the straying problem is created by the fish, especially chinook, not going up the tiny creek and instead spawning in the main river.
Post by: WSU on February 21, 2017, 08:52:11 AM
Post by: WAPatriot on February 21, 2017, 09:41:01 AM
Last year for the derby my buddy and I caught 6 wilds over two days. I think the Willipa hatcheries aren't clipping a very high percent of fish.
Probably dip ins, as the locals call them. Lots of fish bound for the Columbia and elsewhere enter the bay, especially when there is a lot of bait in the bay.
We caught two slightly colored up fish in the mud hole stretch aka the Willipa river don't think these were dip ins and also we weren't the only ones having a problems with high finners. Haveing a four fish limit is nice but when you have to release 75% of the fish you catch it will drive you nuts. Especially when it's the most labor intense fishery in the world. Seems like every year it's more wilds and more weeds.