Post by: MadMooner on April 26, 2017, 02:25:02 PM
I plan on picking up a CVA Optima NW. I like the Williams peep mounted on the rail, Ace in the Hole I believe they call it. Stock front site.
Was going to get some RWS musket caps and a pound of loose Triple Seven to start.
Bullets........Not sure here. Sounds like the Barnes and Bloodlines get a lot of good press, but damn, they're proud of them. Are they available in bulk and purchase sabots separately? Do some sabots work better with certain bullets and bores than others?
My other thought was to buy a box of 300gr .452 WFN bullets from Beartooth -
https://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/details.php?id=98
and some sabots. Anyone use sabot'd hardcast WFN out of their ML?
Any thoughts? Am I on the right track?
Post by: TriggerMike on April 26, 2017, 02:28:48 PM
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Post by: MadMooner on April 26, 2017, 02:43:49 PM
Which Bloodline do you use? They load and shoot well? You buy them in the 20 packs with sabot? I haven't seen 50 or 100ct bulk packs anywhere?
Post by: TheHunt on April 26, 2017, 02:43:56 PM
Put black electrical tap on the end of the barrel to keep the water out.
Post by: TriggerMike on April 26, 2017, 02:49:14 PM
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Post by: MadMooner on April 26, 2017, 02:52:57 PM
Mike - Thanks for the tip!
Post by: Mfowl on April 26, 2017, 03:37:52 PM
Post by: TriggerMike on April 26, 2017, 06:16:46 PM
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Post by: mp.hunter on April 26, 2017, 09:27:58 PM
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Post by: MadMooner on April 27, 2017, 02:50:26 PM
Post by: Mfowl on April 27, 2017, 03:27:27 PM
Do I want T7 FFG or FFFG?
I use T7 ffg but that is also what is available where I buy my ML supplies outside of pellets or pyrodex. No complaints about it. Has always burned when I pull the trigger.
Post by: Sabotloader on April 29, 2017, 07:41:45 AM
Post by: bearpaw on April 29, 2017, 08:03:50 AM
Post by: cougforester on April 29, 2017, 10:24:34 AM
Whatever you do, stay away from powerbelt bullets.
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Just a question, what issues do you have with Powerbelts? I've killed a cow and bull the last two years that have run a combined 45-50 yards before expiring. My gun loves them and I've had pretty good terminal results.
Post by: Sabotloader on April 29, 2017, 11:21:05 AM
Whatever you do, stay away from powerbelt bullets.
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Just a question, what issues do you have with Powerbelts? I've killed a cow and bull the last two years that have run a combined 45-50 yards before expiring. My gun loves them and I've had pretty good terminal results.
This from my stand point only... PBelts are accurate no getting around that one. Really all they are is an elongated round ball made from very soft lead.
If you want to shoot a PBelt and you are in Washington - check out the Platinum edition they are a little stronger...
As long as you shoot them with moderate velocities they seem to function - it is when you elevate their velocity that the problems occur. At the higher velocities they tend to blow up on solid target such as a bone or even the thicker skin of an elk - especially if it happens to wet or wet and muddy.
I would suggest if you must use PBelts on elk you need to shoot a 348 grain bullet or better yet even heavier.
Post by: reelamin on April 29, 2017, 07:28:48 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on April 29, 2017, 07:31:09 PM
I am also new to muzzle loading and need a lot (or little) input on my load development. I don't want to take over the thread, so should I post in this or another place?
Welcome. :hello:
Start your own thread, introduce yourself and tell us a little about your experience and ask away.
Lots of good information and folks here!!
Post by: MadMooner on April 30, 2017, 11:53:58 AM
Going to order some of those cast bullets and sabots to play with as well. Just have to figure out which sabot?
Welcome reelamin - Post anything ya like on this thread. I'll post how my efforts turn out!
Post by: TriggerMike on April 30, 2017, 01:02:03 PM
I've killed elk and deer with them as well. I've also found a ton of fragments in the hides and organs of the elk that I've seen killed by them. There are many other bullets out on the market that retain their weight on impact much more efficiently and kill more effectively. I won't use and wont recommend something when I know that there are many other better options out there. The one thing they have going for them is how widely available they are but planning ahead solves that.Whatever you do, stay away from powerbelt bullets.
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Just a question, what issues do you have with Powerbelts? I've killed a cow and bull the last two years that have run a combined 45-50 yards before expiring. My gun loves them and I've had pretty good terminal results.
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Post by: TriggerMike on April 30, 2017, 01:03:48 PM
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Post by: Sabotloader on April 30, 2017, 01:22:48 PM
Thanks for the advice all. I picked up a pound of T7 FFFG and some RWS 1081 caps. Have a measure, peep, and some Barnes MZ's coming in the mail!
Going to order some of those cast bullets and sabots to play with as well. Just have to figure out which sabot?
Welcome reelamin - Post anything ya like on this thread. I'll post how my efforts turn out!
you might take a hard look at these also
(https://s26.postimg.org/pjkwvjkxl/265_Misc_Pics.jpg)
https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/452-controlled-fracturing-muzzleloader-265gr-bullet?variant=28146206856
This bullet is the one that I use for elk - it is a little much for a deer but it works there also...
https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/458-controlled-fracturing-305gr-bullet?variant=1073755480
(https://s26.postimg.org/mvige583d/458-305.jpg)
Both of these might fit your rifle better the Barnes may be really tight going down. The 305 is a 458 - 45-70 rifle bullet the 265 is a .452 and you can get several different thicknesses of sabot to change the loading pressure. These are very accurate
This target was shot with the 265's but it was shot with a scope. It still gives you and idea how accurate the 265 can be.
(https://s26.postimg.org/t7do2p0vt/265_-16-10-6_Tgt_Composite.jpg)
Post by: MadMooner on April 30, 2017, 02:05:53 PM
The cast I want to try can be ordered sized from .451-.453.
Just have to wait for the rifle and accouterments now!
I dig the shield on the chrono! I dig the es/sd on the numbers as well.
Post by: reelamin on April 30, 2017, 02:21:15 PM
Starter Rifle is a Bighorn 50cal, installed a #11 Breech Plug, scope mounted for load development, and then will install a Williams FP rear sight. Ordered a Spin Jag loader, Spin Jag hunting ram rod, and use a Knight Ultimate bench rod. Cleaning with 50/50 Balistol and water, and finishing with Butches Bore shine to get it all out.
Sabots- MMP12, MMP24, Harvester, and Hornady sabots in 44 and 45. Bullets- 300gr XTP's in 44 and 45, and now have all the Barnes 290-300gr bullets. I also have Badman HC in 44 and 45 to use as practice loads.
Powder/Caps- 777 3f and BH209 I have used and have come Pyrodex 2-3f in the wings. I only have chronographed the BH209 with the following results 100=1820fps, 110=1960fps, 120=2029fps, 130=2100fps. Accuracy with the 44's was not good at all and stopped even trying. The Barnes TMZ and the 45XTP were in the 2.5" average range using 100-130gr of BH209 and 5gr of 777 as a kicker. Barnes being more accurate by about .5" but was super hard to load. I even tried the Barnes in my other Sabots...but the Yellow factory were the most accurate.
Tried some 777 only for my practice loads (Badman HC Lead is same Sabots) and was swabbing/cleaning between shots. Needless to say it went to heck super fast...as in terrible and now I'm here. The 44's were hitting 3-4' away from a 4x4' target at 100. The 45's were all over between 7"-1.5' at 100.
So open to suggestions to try.
thanks
Post by: reelamin on May 04, 2017, 05:00:03 PM
The Teflon tape on Breech plug and tightening it down. AMAZING!!! I did not break it loose like I was going to every 10....I just shot the crap out of it....I would guess with all the Velocity, practice load, and hunting load development....easily shot it 60+ times. It was so built up around the plug I had to pick and soak with 50/50 Ballistol to get the build up out to get the socket on it. Came out like it had not been shot....100 times better than grease!!
So here is what I ended up with. Using T7-3F and CCI Mag Caps for everything and 3 shot groups at 100 using 5x scope Windex patch after every group. Please offer up any input you think may help.
Velocity 300gr: 100gr/1560fps 110gr/1760fps 120gr/1902fps 130gr/1958 140gr/2085fps 150gr/2065fps 160gr/2140fps
Practice: 250gr Badman HC .452 I shot these a lot with different powder charges up to 130 and accuracy was the same....trying to get them to group smaller....no luck at all....they just shot all over the place.
100gr Load Harvester/13" HPH24/9" HPH12/12"
Practice .458/300gr Sierra Pistol
120 gr Load HPH24 shot two groups 4" average. Best was 3.5" with 2 into .5"
Barnes TMZ 290 Yellow Sabot
120gr 2.5"
150gr 2.5"
Barnes MZ 300 Black Sabot
120gr 3"
Barnes 290 TEZ
120gr 3"
Traditions 300 Smack Down Yellow Sabot
120 gr 7" 2 into 2" Only had 3 to try.
Lehigh 458/305
120gr HPH Orange 8"
Lehigh 458/305 MZ
120gr HPH 24 13" 2 into 4"
120gr HPH Orange 2.5" 2 into 1"
Lehigh 265/.452
120gr HPH24 4.5"
Post by: MadMooner on May 07, 2017, 11:47:00 AM
Thanks for the advice all. I picked up a pound of T7 FFFG and some RWS 1081 caps. Have a measure, peep, and some Barnes MZ's coming in the mail!
Going to order some of those cast bullets and sabots to play with as well. Just have to figure out which sabot?
Welcome reelamin - Post anything ya like on this thread. I'll post how my efforts turn out!
you might take a hard look at these also
(https://s26.postimg.org/pjkwvjkxl/265_Misc_Pics.jpg)
https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/452-controlled-fracturing-muzzleloader-265gr-bullet?variant=28146206856
This bullet is the one that I use for elk - it is a little much for a deer but it works there also...
https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/458-controlled-fracturing-305gr-bullet?variant=1073755480
(https://s26.postimg.org/mvige583d/458-305.jpg)
Both of these might fit your rifle better the Barnes may be really tight going down. The 305 is a 458 - 45-70 rifle bullet the 265 is a .452 and you can get several different thicknesses of sabot to change the loading pressure. These are very accurate
This target was shot with the 265's but it was shot with a scope. It still gives you and idea how accurate the 265 can be.
(https://s26.postimg.org/t7do2p0vt/265_-16-10-6_Tgt_Composite.jpg)
SL - Was just looking at the 305 Lehigh. They call out a minimum twist of 1-20"? Does your rifle stabilize them? What distance?
Post by: Sabotloader on May 07, 2017, 12:09:44 PM
Quote from: MadMooner
SL - Was just looking at the 305 Lehigh. They call out a minimum twist of 1-20"? Does your rifle stabilize them? What distance?
[/quote]
They do list it as a 1-20 because of length and the fact that it is a 45-70 bullet. But I have found it will shoot fine from a 1-28 if you shoot it with a hot load. 110 - 120 grains of powder either T7 or BH.
Also an important item is the bullet is held to tighter specs because it is a rifle bullet so the diameter is a little smaller than a corresponding .458 ML bullet. In my case shooting the bullet from a Knight - I need to use a MMP HPH 24 sabot rather than the normal HPH 457/458 Orange sabot. The problem is in the large sabot the bullet can sometime loose grip with the sabot and not get the rotation it needs. In a HPH-24 the sabot gets a much tighter grip on the bullet and their is no slippage.
I have shot them to 200 yards at paper or physical targets. The longest shot on an animal has been 170 yards - worked great.
Post by: reelamin on May 10, 2017, 10:56:13 PM
Edit: I have not forgotten about this....lots of OT at work and no decent blocks of time....I have not made it to the bench yet...maybe Friday unless work calls for more OT.
Post by: reelamin on May 19, 2017, 05:18:17 PM
I have decided on a bullet to hunt with and will do some tweaking and adjusting as I go to see if I can get it better. I am going to use the 290gr Barnes TMZ as it shoots the best at the higher velocities and equal at lower. The Barnes 300MZ is almost a perfect replacement. I will have to find some kind of process for loading when hunting as they are a SOB to get started unless I wipe the muzzle with windex about 1" down. I will keep trying things when I go to the range, but will be using my peep sight from here on out. I found my rifle prefers to have a windex swab between shots. It shoots consistent with no fliers. If I shoot 3-4 without cleaning it usually will have a flier.
My 45/250gr HC practice went from a 4' group to a 4" group....super happy with this. Only a 100gr load but it is very consistent....fully within what I can live with for practice shooting. The best part was it had almost the exact same POI as the heavier hunting loads. Not enough to even have a hold adjustment to hit close to where sights will be set for the hunting load.
Open to any suggestions or input anyone has as total newbie to Muzzle Loaders. I will say if you ever use the Teflon Tape on your Breech Plug you will never go back to using grease. So many shots and built up again where I could not fit the socket on it. Soaked and cleaned to get socket on and it came right out...way easier than any grease I tried with easily 3 times the shots.
I fouled with one shot then shot 3 shot groups with no windex swab. Windex swabbed twice between groups. Still using a scope set on 5X.
Lehigh 305/.458
120gr HPH Orange 7" 2 into 1.25".
120gr HPH24 9" 2 into .5"
Lehigh 265/.452
120gr HPH24 1.25"
150gr HPH24 6" 2 into 2"
Barnes 290gr TMZ
120gr 2.5"
Barnes 300 MZ
120gr 2.75"
150gr 2"
Hornady 300/45 XTP
120gr HPH24 3"
150gr HPH24 3"
Swabbed Each Shot with windex.
Lehigh 305/.458
120gr HPH24 1.5"
150gr HPH24 3.5"
RWS1075
Lehigh 305/.458
120gr HPH24 3"
140gr HPH24 3"
Barnes 290 TMZ
140gr 1.5"
Thanks again for any help and I will have more help questions in the future. I have until end of June to get it worked in...then it is Salmon season and very little shooting other than a practice session just to get trigger time.
Post by: reelamin on May 25, 2017, 04:54:02 PM
Does anyone use the larger aperture and or the low light one? Daylight the stock size is good, but more worried about the low light sight picture.
Post by: Sabotloader on May 25, 2017, 05:00:59 PM
I put my Williams FP sight on today. Its hitting a little high, but only shooting practice loads for now. I was shooting just about the same size groups as with the scope. POI was very close to each other with 80,90, and 100gr of powder.
Does anyone use the larger aperture and or the low light one? Daylight the stock size is good, but more worried about the low light sight picture.
For low light - I take the aperture out and use the FP as a Ghost ring sight - works real well. When the light improves I put the aperture back in...