Post by: wooltie on July 13, 2017, 04:23:16 PM
I cannot get the rifle to recoil straight back and stay on target. Typically, the rifle torques counterclockwise during recoil and sends the shots 1-4" high at 100 yards. I have shot 1 MOA groups before at 100 and 200 yards but they occur inconsistently.
Can someone give me some advice?
The rifle is a Model 70 in 30-06 w/BC stock and Leupold scope, light trigger. All components are torqued to specs. I use a caldwell front rest and leather rear bag. I shoot 150g and 180g factory interlocks, accubonds, SST.
I've tried different setups: shoulders almost square to target; pulling the stock into the pocket; letting the rifle free recoil; I've shouldered the rifle at the bench, aimed at the target, then lowered the rifle onto the rests to establish my body position relative to target; my head is always relaxed and tips forward to rest my cheek onto the stock.
So I dunno.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 13, 2017, 04:34:51 PM
Post by: wooltie on July 13, 2017, 04:47:38 PM
I have had shots where the rifle barely recoils back and stays on target.
The rifle sits fairly level in the rests but I haven't verified that.
I don't know if the issue is how the gun sits in the rests or where the pad rests against my shoulder pocket.
The recoil doesn't bother me so I don't think the issue is flinching.
Post by: Alchase on July 13, 2017, 05:28:28 PM
1-4" at 100 yards is a pretty big variation from a bench.
Is the rifle sighted in?
Try holding the fore end.
If so sounds more like a loose scope or rings.
Ammo could be another reason.
And if you still can't get it in, bedding could be the issue.
Post by: wooltie on July 13, 2017, 05:46:59 PM
When the gun recoils straight back and never really leaves the original point of aim, the bullet impacts the bullseye, right on target.
I dunno I read that rounds with more kick require you to pull the rifle into the shoulder pocket more so than letting the rifle ride the rests back.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 13, 2017, 06:00:26 PM
Light rifles I find hard to shoot without holding forend in general unless they have a brake though stocks with high pad and shooting not uphill is less of issue.
Post by: Jolten on July 13, 2017, 06:03:38 PM
Post by: wooltie on July 13, 2017, 06:08:05 PM
The right slides back on the rests during recoil but never comes off.
I keep playing with my setup re pad position and how square my shoulders are to target.
180g is about as much recoil as i like. I've shot 180g out of a 300 shot mag and that was too much.
Yes, I rest the forend 2-3" behind the sling mount.
I definitely feel more relaxed and natural when I can sit up more at the bench as opposed to leaning over. So I always sit on a stool or low chair as opposed to a taller chair.
Post by: huntnfmly on July 13, 2017, 06:28:07 PM
Post by: wooltie on July 13, 2017, 06:55:54 PM
I'm pretty relaxed at bench meaning my upper body and shoulders are relaxed and not tense.
They aren't exactly braced for the recoil whereas your entire body weight absorbs recoil when shooting prone.
Maybe I need to find a more braced position at bench.
Post by: Bill W on July 13, 2017, 07:06:08 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 13, 2017, 07:08:31 PM
Post by: Alchase on July 13, 2017, 07:25:55 PM
If 30-06 shooting 180 and 150, everything tight, floated barrel.
And both are throwing flyers 1-4 inches, try different ammo type.
30-06 is not what I would call a hard kicking caliber even with 180s.
Have someone watch you shoot, I suspect if it is not ammo, that you are flinching anticipating the recoil.
If you take all the mechanical variations and ammo out of the picture , it leaves only the shooter.
Post by: biggfish on July 13, 2017, 07:49:05 PM
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Post by: wooltie on July 13, 2017, 07:57:58 PM
Not looking for crazy groups just 1 moa consistently is fine by me.
I suspect I just need to manage the recoil better using a more firm pull of the stock onto the pocket.
I had a 308 once, heavier rifle by about 1 lb, and shot 150g factory ammo 1 moa all day. Less felt recoil with that rifle and round so I used a light grip and very little pull into the pocket.
Post by: JDHasty on July 13, 2017, 08:27:14 PM
Get it lined up and then I only hold with trigger hand and seat the rifle into my pocket firmly (I shoot 300 Wby & slug guns this way). Off hand squeezing rear bag.
Post by: Bob33 on July 13, 2017, 08:33:52 PM
Post by: hogslayer on July 13, 2017, 08:36:56 PM
Post by: Alchase on July 13, 2017, 08:46:54 PM
Take a friend with you. Have him load the rifle for you without you watching. Ask him to not load it one of the first few times but not tell you which time. He can carefully watch you shoot to see if you flinch and how you pull the trigger. If you flinch that's probably the issue. If you don't, good for you and you can rule that out. Flinching is more common than many would admit.
I agree, I have seen guys flinch bad enough to not be on paper at 100 yards.
Most can be fixed by realizing what is taking place.
Post by: wooltie on July 13, 2017, 09:03:11 PM
I would have a hard time believing that the way your holding the gun would make a 1-4" difference. Maybe 3/4 to 1/2' difference at 100 but not inches. Especially at 100 yards. I would also focus on where your cheek weld and how centered you are behind the scope.
Today for example, the first shot was 2" high and slightly left. Second shot was on target. Third shot was 2.5-3" high and right.
The rifle has grouped moa before on the target, and also off the target--I've put 5-6 shots in an inch together but like 1" high and right.
I just notice that my best shots occur when the right recoils straight back and does not torque. Coincidentally, the rifle recoils (physically moves) back very little when the straight back/no torque thing occurs. It's like on these shots my body is providing enough firm resistance to absorb the recoil but not let the rifle wander left/right/up/down or torque.
I know the rifle is solid, so it's either me, the rest/bag, the ammo, or a combination thereof.
Post by: jmscon on July 13, 2017, 09:19:18 PM
The other thing I've been thinking about lately when people are talking about their rifle used to shoot well and now it doesn't, if your bench is in the sun and you are hanging out for a while that barrel has a hard time cooling down. Left out in the sun long enough it will get pretty darn hot without firing a shot. Also the sun heating the barrel is not even where firing the rifle with heat the barrel more evenly (in the circumference not length).
Post by: JDHasty on July 13, 2017, 10:06:24 PM
I would have a hard time believing that the way your holding the gun would make a 1-4" difference. Maybe 3/4 to 1/2' difference at 100 but not inches. Especially at 100 yards. I would also focus on where your cheek weld and how centered you are behind the scope.
Today for example, the first shot was 2" high and slightly left. Second shot was on target. Third shot was 2.5-3" high and right.
The rifle has grouped moa before on the target, and also off the target--I've put 5-6 shots in an inch together but like 1" high and right.
I just notice that my best shots occur when the right recoils straight back and does not torque. Coincidentally, the rifle recoils (physically moves) back very little when the straight back/no torque thing occurs. It's like on these shots my body is providing enough firm resistance to absorb the recoil but not let the rifle wander left/right/up/down or torque.
I know the rifle is solid, so it's either me, the rest/bag, the ammo, or a combination thereof.
Is the barrel clean? My 300 Wby shoots about 7/10ths clean, but with copper buildup it goes south real fast.
Post by: kentrek on July 14, 2017, 12:19:29 AM
I'd upgrade the trigger beings it's a light rifle.....if you have 6 pound trigger pull on a 7 pound gun....well you get my point
Also practice alil dry firing
Invest in a led sled
Solid bench ??
Your prolly a better shot then you realize, something is wrong with the rifle/ammo/scope/bench
Hope this helps
Post by: yorketransport on July 14, 2017, 06:51:20 AM
Try shooting it off of a bipod too. This will take away some of the problems you can get when your front rest is either too hard or too soft. A bipod with a good rear bag is my preferred method for shooting groups with a spotter style rifle.
Post by: wooltie on July 14, 2017, 07:43:39 AM
Shooting a relatively light weight rifle free recoil is more difficult than you'd think. Part of what you're seeing could be the forend bouncing off of the front test. I usually get better accuracy from hunting rifles when I grip the forend to control the bounce off of the front rest. Also, make sure that the contour of the front bag matches the forend. Using a 2" front bag on a standard spotter forend won't offer much help.
Try shooting it off of a bipod too. This will take away some of the problems you can get when your front rest is either too hard or too soft. A bipod with a good rear bag is my preferred method for shooting groups with a spotter style rifle.
Thanks. I use a Caldwell Rock Deluxe w/the factory bag and a leather bunny ears rear bag. The benches are solid wood or concrete which require a pallet jack to move.
The trigger is the factory MOA turned almost all the way down to where I'm comfortable. All the way down is pretty darn light. The rifle+scope weighs about 7.5 lbs I believe--it weighs under 8 lbs for sure. Shooting 180g factory accubonds for a hunting load right now.
By free recoil I mean (1) the rifle sits on the rests at the target, (2) I bring my body and shoulder to the rifle, (3) I lightly grip/shoulder the stock not to disrupt the point of aim, and apply pressure to the trigger. The gun comes off target considerably when it recoils, typically going up and torquing right or left. I can see where the point of aim moves to during the shot, and where it goes is where my shots always end up. That's why I'm trying to find the right combination to get consistent recoil of just straight back--neither up/down/left/right.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 14, 2017, 07:53:29 AM
Post by: poopooheaddad on July 14, 2017, 07:59:19 AM
Post by: JDHasty on July 14, 2017, 08:05:02 AM
Shooting a relatively light weight rifle free recoil is more difficult than you'd think. Part of what you're seeing could be the forend bouncing off of the front test. I usually get better accuracy from hunting rifles when I grip the forend to control the bounce off of the front rest. Also, make sure that the contour of the front bag matches the forend. Using a 2" front bag on a standard spotter forend won't offer much help.[/b]
Try shooting it off of a bipod too. This will take away some of the problems you can get when your front rest is either too hard or too soft. A bipod with a good rear bag is my preferred method for shooting groups with a spotter style rifle.
Trrue
Post by: kentrek on July 14, 2017, 08:30:04 AM
Post by: wooltie on July 14, 2017, 08:39:33 AM
I mean, I know you don't need a death grip but I could certainly use a firmer grip and also pull the rifle into my shoulder--which is fine by me, I'm not trying to shoot any particular style e.g. free recoil, I just want to improve my marksmanship and group moa consistently.
When I shot my .308, which weighed a pound more, using 150g factory loads, I didn't run into this issue of "the gun flying all over the place", probably because of less recoil.
Post by: Alchase on July 14, 2017, 08:57:31 AM
When I shot my .308, which weighed a pound more, using 150g factory loads, I didn't run into this issue of "the gun flying all over the place", probably because of less recoil.
The .308 and the 30-06 are almost identical ballistically.
The rifle would make more of a difference in recoil, then difference between a .308 and 30-06 would.
Have you tried shooting offhand while standing?
This would take the "bench out of the equation.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 14, 2017, 09:24:35 AM
Post by: Bill W on July 14, 2017, 11:07:34 AM
Proper alignment of your front and back rests is also another little aspect that should be heeded.
If you're ever over in the Moses Lake area camping bring your gear along and we can go up to the local range for a short session. A person learns more when being shown rather than reading about it or trying to meld together various methods.
I shoot free recoil with a .30 BR. Some people don't like even that little bit of recoil. One thing I did learn about free recoil was to make sure the scope didn't hit my hea or nose. :yike: That sorta makes a person jumpy for the next couple of shots.
you also need to ensure that parallex is minimized or removed for the distance you are shooting. It's hard to get it all out. With some parallex a person might think everything they are doing is the same but it's not.
Post by: wooltie on July 14, 2017, 11:57:03 AM
I've seen a lot of interesting methods on here and most are part there. The key to good shooting is to do everything consistently the same every shot. One thing I'd like to know is how did shooting free recoil work for you? I bet that turned into a real eye opener.
Proper alignment of your front and back rests is also another little aspect that should be heeded.
If you're ever over in the Moses Lake area camping bring your gear along and we can go up to the local range for a short session. A person learns more when being shown rather than reading about it or trying to meld together various methods.
I shoot free recoil with a .30 BR. Some people don't like even that little bit of recoil. One thing I did learn about free recoil was to make sure the scope didn't hit my hea or nose. :yike: That sorta makes a person jumpy for the next couple of shots.
you also need to ensure that parallex is minimized or removed for the distance you are shooting. It's hard to get it all out. With some parallex a person might think everything they are doing is the same but it's not.
Free recoil worked fine when I shot heavier rifles and lighter loads relative to 180g .30 cal @ 2750 fps out of a 7.5 lb rifle. 150g .30 cal @ 2910 out of a 8.5-9 lb rifle delivered much less felt recoil, muzzle flip.
I think I just need to manage the recoil more with this gun by holding the forend, or pulling firmly into shoulder pocket, checking bag setup, trying bipod, etc. as others have suggested and figure out what works. Free recoiling this gun, with the rest and bag setup, sends the gun wandering all over the place. I can observe the crosshairs move off target during recoil and where the crosshairs go is where the bullet impacts the target (e.g. up left, up, up right etc.) This tells me that the gun is not staying on target during recoil. My goal is to find the setup variables that get the gun recoiling back, with less flip, and comes to rest more on target.
thanks everyone!
Post by: JLS on July 14, 2017, 12:22:42 PM
Shooting a relatively light weight rifle free recoil is more difficult than you'd think. Part of what you're seeing could be the forend bouncing off of the front test. I usually get better accuracy from hunting rifles when I grip the forend to control the bounce off of the front rest. Also, make sure that the contour of the front bag matches the forend. Using a 2" front bag on a standard spotter forend won't offer much help.
Try shooting it off of a bipod too. This will take away some of the problems you can get when your front rest is either too hard or too soft. A bipod with a good rear bag is my preferred method for shooting groups with a spotter style rifle.
Thanks. I use a Caldwell Rock Deluxe w/the factory bag and a leather bunny ears rear bag. The benches are solid wood or concrete which require a pallet jack to move.
The trigger is the factory MOA turned almost all the way down to where I'm comfortable. All the way down is pretty darn light. The rifle+scope weighs about 7.5 lbs I believe--it weighs under 8 lbs for sure. Shooting 180g factory accubonds for a hunting load right now.
By free recoil I mean (1) the rifle sits on the rests at the target, (2) I bring my body and shoulder to the rifle, (3) I lightly grip/shoulder the stock not to disrupt the point of aim, and apply pressure to the trigger. The gun comes off target considerably when it recoils, typically going up and torquing right or left. I can see where the point of aim moves to during the shot, and where it goes is where my shots always end up. That's why I'm trying to find the right combination to get consistent recoil of just straight back--neither up/down/left/right.
I agree with what Yorker and Magnum Willy's are saying. When shooting my Kimber Hunter, my groups will open up to 2-3" shooting off of sandbags and foreend support. As soon as I grip the foreend I can immediately reduce them to 0.75 MOA. This is with a 5.5 pound rifle.
Try some different methods using the same ammo, just make sure you are consistent with the method during the entirety of the group.
Post by: hogslayer on July 14, 2017, 12:24:10 PM
Post by: JDHasty on July 14, 2017, 09:11:56 PM
Shooting a relatively light weight rifle free recoil is more difficult than you'd think. Part of what you're seeing could be the forend bouncing off of the front test. I usually get better accuracy from hunting rifles when I grip the forend to control the bounce off of the front rest. Also, make sure that the contour of the front bag matches the forend. Using a 2" front bag on a standard spotter forend won't offer much help.
Try shooting it off of a bipod too. This will take away some of the problems you can get when your front rest is either too hard or too soft. A bipod with a good rear bag is my preferred method for shooting groups with a spotter style rifle.
Thanks. I use a Caldwell Rock Deluxe w/the factory bag and a leather bunny ears rear bag. The benches are solid wood or concrete which require a pallet jack to move.
The trigger is the factory MOA turned almost all the way down to where I'm comfortable. All the way down is pretty darn light. The rifle+scope weighs about 7.5 lbs I believe--it weighs under 8 lbs for sure. Shooting 180g factory accubonds for a hunting load right now.
By free recoil I mean (1) the rifle sits on the rests at the target, (2) I bring my body and shoulder to the rifle, (3) I lightly grip/shoulder the stock not to disrupt the point of aim, and apply pressure to the trigger. The gun comes off target considerably when it recoils, typically going up and torquing right or left. I can see where the point of aim moves to during the shot, and where it goes is where my shots always end up. That's why I'm trying to find the right combination to get consistent recoil of just straight back--neither up/down/left/right.
I agree with what Yorker and Magnum Willy's are saying. When shooting my Kimber Hunter, my groups will open up to 2-3" shooting off of sandbags and foreend support. As soon as I grip the foreend I can immediately reduce them to 0.75 MOA. This is with a 5.5 pound rifle.
Try some different methods using the same ammo, just make sure you are consistent with the method during the entirety of the group.
I have not found that to be the case, but I powder my bags and watch the sling swivels. I will say that a bipod/rear bag can give me about the same result usually as bags though.
I have shot off bags so much for so long it is my preference.
I even shoot my Deerslayers w/out holding the fore end, but caution against it unless you know how to get and hold the butt pad well into the shoulder socket.
Post by: Alchase on July 14, 2017, 09:19:29 PM
I makes me feel like I am not in control of the rifle. I also always grip the foreend when not shooting of a bi-pod.
Just to clarify, I shoot from a bench often, but I am not a "bench rest shooter".
Bench rest shooters are in their own world, and they have very accurate rifles, but damn! Their rifles are ugly!
:chuckle:
Post by: EmeraldBullet on July 14, 2017, 09:20:01 PM
When I shot my .308, which weighed a pound more, using 150g factory loads, I didn't run into this issue of "the gun flying all over the place", probably because of less recoil.
The .308 and the 30-06 are almost identical ballistically.
The rifle would make more of a difference in recoil, then difference between a .308 and 30-06 would.
Have you tried shooting offhand while standing?
This would take the "bench out of the equation.
I know for me personally, it's a lot easier for me to shoot my .308 standing than using a sand bag. I'm sure every model and person is different though in this regard.
Post by: Alchase on July 14, 2017, 09:35:14 PM
When I shot my .308, which weighed a pound more, using 150g factory loads, I didn't run into this issue of "the gun flying all over the place", probably because of less recoil.
The .308 and the 30-06 are almost identical ballistically.
The rifle would make more of a difference in recoil, then difference between a .308 and 30-06 would.
Have you tried shooting offhand while standing?
This would take the "bench out of the equation.
I know for me personally, it's a lot easier for me to shoot my .308 standing than using a sand bag. I'm sure every model and person is different though in this regard.
Good for you to practice shooting offhand.
Before every hunting season, there is a mad rush of people to sight in or check scopes at the local range.
The part I always found interesting, it is actually pretty rare to see people practicing shooting from offhand.
I never understood this.
They will never have a bench to shoot from while hunting.
They could have a rifle that shoots MOA from a bench all day long, if they do not practice real shooting situations they might not hit a paper plate at 100 yards.
Post by: Bill W on July 15, 2017, 08:51:34 AM
Funny, how everyone has their own preferences. I hate shooting with a rear rest.
I makes me feel like I am not in control of the rifle. I also always grip the foreend when not shooting of a bi-pod.
Just to clarify, I shoot from a bench often, but I am not a "bench rest shooter".
Bench rest shooters are in their own world, and they have very accurate rifles, but damn! Their rifles are ugly!
:chuckle:
When I first started shooting BR I told the guy (who was working on getting me to try it) that if my rifle didn't look like a rifle I wasn't going to do it. 10 years later I tried it and got hooked. With jacketed bullets it's possible to shoot flies at 300 yards when they land on a target.
Post by: Alchase on July 15, 2017, 09:26:37 AM
Funny, how everyone has their own preferences. I hate shooting with a rear rest.
I makes me feel like I am not in control of the rifle. I also always grip the foreend when not shooting of a bi-pod.
Just to clarify, I shoot from a bench often, but I am not a "bench rest shooter".
Bench rest shooters are in their own world, and they have very accurate rifles, but damn! Their rifles are ugly!
:chuckle:
When I first started shooting BR I told the guy (who was working on getting me to try it) that if my rifle didn't look like a rifle I wasn't going to do it. 10 years later I tried it and got hooked. With jacketed bullets it's possible to shoot flies at 300 yards when they land on a target.
You bench rest guys take accuracy to a whole new level.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 15, 2017, 10:22:22 AM
Post by: browney5er on July 15, 2017, 12:00:34 PM
Just a guess, but I'm leaning a more and more towards the stock. Something I'm kind of going through, and noticed a number of other sites discussing as well. Bell and Carlson stocks have a little bit of flex in them (more than many shooters like), especially the further out on the fore end. You can usually grab the barrel and the fore end and apply different pressure and see the stock deflecting--with the more solid stocks (wood included) it is usually just the barrel springing over. The softer composites transfer the flex down to the bedding blocks and action, so even the free floated barrels get affected. Just have to put the gun in the rests exactly the same way for each shot. A half inch further forward or back flexes the stock enough to change the point of impact. May or may not be the issue, but might explore.
I agree 100% with the flex in a bell and Carlson stock. I have a .223 that will shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yards off sand bags but if I use my bipod my groups can open up to over an inch. I grabbed the butt of my rifle that was resting on the bipod on a shooting bench and twisted it left to right and was surprised how much it moved. When I was shooting it off of the bipod I would get on target then move the butt of the rifle around
to get perfect before the shot, that was torquing my stock and giving me poor performance. This is a bell and Carlson medalist stock. I'm not saying you can't shoot effectively off of a bipod just that there are variables. My hunting rifle is a .280 and has a much stiffer stock, I know this because I tried the same thing with it and found no twist. I shoot my .280 from a bipod free recoil 1" or less at 100yrds. That being said it sounds like you're shooting off of a stand so that isn't an issue. Recoil would have nothing to do with your groupings other than flinching at trigger pull anticipating recoil. Since your shooting off a stand recoil shouldn't be an issue. I agree with a previous post of shooting free recoil and like he said be aware of proper technique or you'll get bit by the scope. I only shoot free recoil when developing loads or sighting in a rifle because my rifle jumps all over the place during the shot, not good practice in a hunting situation but I've never needed a quick follow up shot while sighting in a rifle. Your rifle if properly bedded will never shoot better than sitting on a stand with nothing touching the barrel or torquing the stock. The only thing we can do is make it worse by touching it you can't make it better with your grip. If you've ever seen high speed slow motion footage of a bullet leaving the muzzle the bullet is way out of the picture before any muzzle jump happens. It doesn't matter if it is a pistol or high powered rifle. You might want to look at the crown of your barrel.
Post by: wooltie on July 16, 2017, 09:30:28 AM
Groups improved yesterday, though I used my backpack instead of the Caldwell as a front rest. I stuffed my hunting jackets into a small osprey pack to create a rest similar to something I'd use in the field. The rest was stable and cupped the forend but still allowing the rifle to recoil back freely. I also used the same bunny ear rear rest.
I applied more grip pressure to pull the rifle into the pocket, which was the one thing I wanted to do differently this session. I leaned more forward initially, as opposed to sitting more upright, because the bench @ the 50 yard range was lower than the 100 yard benches. I rifle was still flipping, but much less, and no torque.
I began shooting at 50 yards, using 150g factory interlocks since I'm low on 180g. First 6 shots were 1-2.5" high of center, except for one shot which was on center/target. All 6 shots were spread left/right 0.5" or less of each other. Some where touching. The groupings were decent; they were just high of center. I took next shot at a new target and hit 2" high of center. At this point I turned my scope down 8 clicks. Next three shots were moa on center, one of which was 180g. So I moved to the 100 yard range.
I used the same setup at the 100 yard range except that I was sitting more upright because the bench was taller. Muzzle flip seemed to increase somewhat, but I also noticed that the gun was moving more left or right of target -- which didn't happen at the 50 yard range.
Groups were not groups at 100 yards. I put one shot in the center, but the remaining 10 shots were spread 1.5-2" high of center, and 1-2" right of center, in that general quadrant.
Interestingly, the rifle flipped less and recoiled more straight and on target back when I used my left fist as a rear rest instead of my bunny ears. I can't remember where those two shots landed, but I thought that was interesting.
I'll return next week to try again, probably bring the Caldwell and try that.
Post by: wooltie on July 16, 2017, 09:39:47 AM
Just a guess, but I'm leaning a more and more towards the stock. Something I'm kind of going through, and noticed a number of other sites discussing as well. Bell and Carlson stocks have a little bit of flex in them (more than many shooters like), especially the further out on the fore end. You can usually grab the barrel and the fore end and apply different pressure and see the stock deflecting--with the more solid stocks (wood included) it is usually just the barrel springing over. The softer composites transfer the flex down to the bedding blocks and action, so even the free floated barrels get affected. Just have to put the gun in the rests exactly the same way for each shot. A half inch further forward or back flexes the stock enough to change the point of impact. May or may not be the issue, but might explore.
I agree 100% with the flex in a bell and Carlson stock. I have a .223 that will shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yards off sand bags but if I use my bipod my groups can open up to over an inch. I grabbed the butt of my rifle that was resting on the bipod on a shooting bench and twisted it left to right and was surprised how much it moved. When I was shooting it off of the bipod I would get on target then move the butt of the rifle around
to get perfect before the shot, that was torquing my stock and giving me poor performance. This is a bell and Carlson medalist stock. I'm not saying you can't shoot effectively off of a bipod just that there are variables. My hunting rifle is a .280 and has a much stiffer stock, I know this because I tried the same thing with it and found no twist. I shoot my .280 from a bipod free recoil 1" or less at 100yrds. That being said it sounds like you're shooting off of a stand so that isn't an issue. Recoil would have nothing to do with your groupings other than flinching at trigger pull anticipating recoil. Since your shooting off a stand recoil shouldn't be an issue. I agree with a previous post of shooting free recoil and like he said be aware of proper technique or you'll get bit by the scope. I only shoot free recoil when developing loads or sighting in a rifle because my rifle jumps all over the place during the shot, not good practice in a hunting situation but I've never needed a quick follow up shot while sighting in a rifle. Your rifle if properly bedded will never shoot better than sitting on a stand with nothing touching the barrel or torquing the stock. The only thing we can do is make it worse by touching it you can't make it better with your grip. If you've ever seen high speed slow motion footage of a bullet leaving the muzzle the bullet is way out of the picture before any muzzle jump happens. It doesn't matter if it is a pistol or high powered rifle. You might want to look at the crown of your barrel.
That's interesting. Throws the whole 'managing recoil' thing out the window. I'm using a medalist, torqued to 65 in lbs. The barrel does not tough the stock.
When shooting free recoil, I would setup the gun on rests so that it was on the target, then shoulder/grip the stock. Then take your hand off the grip just to check that shouldering/gripping didn't affect the point of aim.
Here's a thought --
If the bullet exist the barrel before muzzle flip occurs, then why do some shooters improve their groups by placing their lead hand on the forend to basically add weight to the stock?
Not trying to argue w/you because what you are saying makes sense.
Post by: bearpaw on July 16, 2017, 09:51:31 AM
Post by: KFhunter on July 16, 2017, 10:44:11 AM
Post by: wooltie on July 16, 2017, 01:05:44 PM
Have you ever used a good copper cleaner when cleaning your gun? If you have copper fouling you can clean your gun with regular solvents and it won't get it out, you have to use a copper cleaner. I had a gun that was shooting all over and it took a couple good copper scrubbings to clean it up, it shot a lot better afterward.
I have once with this rifle.
Today I used hoppes 9 for an hour, wet and dry until the wet and dry patches were clear.
Then I ran sweets through the barrel using a wad of 3 patches to form a tight fit.
The wad came out with medium blue lines on it from where the wad rode the lands.
Guess I gotta go back later and repeat the process with Sweets until the blue goes away, right?
Post by: bearpaw on July 16, 2017, 01:56:45 PM
Have you ever used a good copper cleaner when cleaning your gun? If you have copper fouling you can clean your gun with regular solvents and it won't get it out, you have to use a copper cleaner. I had a gun that was shooting all over and it took a couple good copper scrubbings to clean it up, it shot a lot better afterward.
I have once with this rifle.
Today I used hoppes 9 for an hour, wet and dry until the wet and dry patches were clear.
Then I ran sweets through the barrel using a wad of 3 patches to form a tight fit.
The wad came out with medium blue lines on it from where the wad rode the lands.
Guess I gotta go back later and repeat the process with Sweets until the blue goes away, right?
Yes, do it again until you get no blue/green color. Sweets is good, Hoppes is not really that good for getting out copper.
Post by: KFhunter on July 16, 2017, 02:03:45 PM
Post by: JDHasty on July 16, 2017, 09:01:42 PM
Now here is a trick, Quick Silver Top Engine Cleaner will get rid of the carbon that is built up between the layers of copper faster than anything I know of and make the process go faster if you have a gun that has never really been cleaned down to steel.
Once the blue is gone, you may have a layer of carbon that Sweets won't do much for. You need to get that carbon out and then try Sweets again. Then repeat until you are all the way down to the surface of the bore.
I use a little JB too.
My 300 Wby copper fouls w/the fourty year old Nosler Partitions I am still using. It shoots about .7 inch groups when clean, but only for about five shots.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 16, 2017, 09:45:00 PM
Post by: wooltie on July 28, 2017, 08:44:22 AM
To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches. So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets. I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.
Then to the range--
Groups improved, but still not where I want them. I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot.
So, I ordered and installed a Timney. Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups. Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.
Post by: JDHasty on July 28, 2017, 08:56:12 AM
Update--
To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches. So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets. I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.
Then to the range--
Groups improved, but still not where I want them. I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot.
So, I ordered and installed a Timney. Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups. Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.
Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets. Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.
Post by: wooltie on July 28, 2017, 12:53:47 PM
Update--
To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches. So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets. I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.
Then to the range--
Groups improved, but still not where I want them. I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot.
So, I ordered and installed a Timney. Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups. Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.
Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets. Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.
So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?
Post by: JDHasty on July 28, 2017, 01:13:58 PM
Update--
To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches. So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets. I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.
Then to the range--
Groups improved, but still not where I want them. I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot.
So, I ordered and installed a Timney. Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups. Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.
Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets. Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.
So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?
Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean. Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean. It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up. You are using a good bore guide while going through this process. Right?
Post by: wooltie on July 28, 2017, 01:22:29 PM
Update--
To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches. So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets. I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.
Then to the range--
Groups improved, but still not where I want them. I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot.
So, I ordered and installed a Timney. Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups. Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.
Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets. Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.
So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?
Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean. Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean. It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up. You are using a good bore guide while going through this process. Right?
I am using one of those four piece rods with a T hand at the end. I take my time and am not reckless when scrubbing to prevent the rod from touching the bore. I insert at the chamber.
Yes, I can still see copper on the lands located at the muzzle. There is less than when I first began this process, but some copper remains. I'm using hoppes 9 bore solvent and sweet's copper solvent.
So, let me get this straight -- the idea is to remove the copper from the lands and prevent copper from building up on the lands?
Post by: JDHasty on July 28, 2017, 01:29:38 PM
Update--
To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches. So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets. I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.
Then to the range--
Groups improved, but still not where I want them. I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot.
So, I ordered and installed a Timney. Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups. Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.
Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets. Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.
So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?
Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean. Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean. It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up. You are using a good bore guide while going through this process. Right?
I am using one of those four piece rods with a T hand at the end. I take my time and am not reckless when scrubbing to prevent the rod from touching the bore. I insert at the chamber.
Yes, I can still see copper on the lands located at the muzzle. There is less than when I first began this process, but some copper remains.
I'm using hoppes 9 bore solvent and sweet's copper solvent.
OK stop right there.
Invest in - and it is an investment:
1) a good one piece cleaning rod - either stainless or a coated rod.
2) a bore guide
I think the Hoppes will be fine for removing the carbon
And yes the idea is to get the copper out and that means out of the grooves as well. Then keep it clean. This will be easier, or maybe even easy, if once it is clean you go through a break in procedure like used for a new barrel.
Post by: wooltie on July 28, 2017, 01:46:36 PM
Update--
To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches. So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets. I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.
Then to the range--
Groups improved, but still not where I want them. I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot.
So, I ordered and installed a Timney. Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups. Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.
Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets. Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.
So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?
Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean. Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean. It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up. You are using a good bore guide while going through this process. Right?
I am using one of those four piece rods with a T hand at the end. I take my time and am not reckless when scrubbing to prevent the rod from touching the bore. I insert at the chamber.
Yes, I can still see copper on the lands located at the muzzle. There is less than when I first began this process, but some copper remains.
I'm using hoppes 9 bore solvent and sweet's copper solvent.
OK stop right there.
Invest in - and it is an investment:
1) a good one piece cleaning rod - either stainless or a coated rod.
2) a bore guide
I think the Hoppes will be fine for removing the carbon
And yes the idea is to get the copper out and that means out of the grooves as well. Then keep it clean. This will be easier, or maybe even easy, if once it is clean you go through a break in procedure like used for a new barrel.
Thanks. I'll do just that. I see there are carbon fiber rods as well.
Post by: JDHasty on July 28, 2017, 01:48:59 PM
Update--
To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches. So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets. I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.
Then to the range--
Groups improved, but still not where I want them. I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot.
So, I ordered and installed a Timney. Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups. Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.
Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets. Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.
So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?
Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean. Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean. It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up. You are using a good bore guide while going through this process. Right?
I am using one of those four piece rods with a T hand at the end. I take my time and am not reckless when scrubbing to prevent the rod from touching the bore. I insert at the chamber.
Yes, I can still see copper on the lands located at the muzzle. There is less than when I first began this process, but some copper remains.
I'm using hoppes 9 bore solvent and sweet's copper solvent.
OK stop right there.
Invest in - and it is an investment:
1) a good one piece cleaning rod - either stainless or a coated rod.
2) a bore guide
I think the Hoppes will be fine for removing the carbon
And yes the idea is to get the copper out and that means out of the grooves as well. Then keep it clean. This will be easier, or maybe even easy, if once it is clean you go through a break in procedure like used for a new barrel.
Thanks. I'll do just that. I see there are carbon fiber rods as well.
I use Dewey coated rods. I think Bore Tech makes good coated rods too. I have used Kleen Bore stainless one piece rods and like them too. Perhaps someone with experience/knowledge of the carbon fiber rods can help out here. I don't have an opinion on them.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 28, 2017, 04:41:44 PM
1. Parallax - If you do not adjust this properly you are setting yourself up for endless and unnecessary frustrations, particularly if you don't have perfect form to begin with. So-called parallax free scopes aren't. They're crap. Always get your parallax perfect as that alone can represent inches of POA sweep over the intended target at 100 yards.
2. Flinch - It happens to everyone. Period. It's a perfectly natural reaction to having something pound on your shoulder and/or have a loud noise occur. Get some snap caps. Do a lot of PERFECTLY executed trigger presses. Do not have your trigger set too light as that can create target panic. 2-2.5 lbs on a hunting rifle is plenty low. Be sure and leave plenty of over travel. The important thing is that it breaks very cleanly. Have a friend load your rifle with random live and snap-cap rounds. Set your iPhone and video yourself on slow-mo.
Post by: JDHasty on July 28, 2017, 06:09:55 PM
Other than the inherent accuracy of the rifle system (or lack thereof) - which can be ascertained by allowing a very competent shooter punch a few groups, I've found that erratic groups are usually a result of two primary factors.
1. Parallax - If you do not adjust this properly you are setting yourself up for endless and unnecessary frustrations, particularly if you don't have perfect form to begin with. So-called parallax free scopes aren't. They're crap. Always get your parallax perfect as that alone can represent inches of POA sweep over the intended target at 100 yards.
2. Flinch - It happens to everyone. Period. It's a perfectly natural reaction to having something pound on your shoulder and/or have a loud noise occur. Get some snap caps. Do a lot of PERFECTLY executed trigger presses. Do not have your trigger set too light as that can create target panic. 2-2.5 lbs on a hunting rifle is plenty low. Be sure and leave plenty of over travel. The important thing is that it breaks very cleanly. Have a friend load your rifle with random live and snap-cap rounds. Set your iPhone and video yourself on slow-mo.
Yes, I agree
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 28, 2017, 06:47:18 PM
Post by: JDHasty on July 28, 2017, 06:56:00 PM
I've found a stiff trigger is hard to overcome for many shooters regardless of rifle and loads inherent accuracy.
I'll take a good trigger on a mediocre gun above the opposite situation any day.
Post by: wooltie on July 31, 2017, 05:41:59 PM
Post by: Jolten on July 31, 2017, 06:21:08 PM
Post by: JDHasty on July 31, 2017, 06:47:21 PM
Here's the muzzle.
That could be the issue right there. It doesn't take long, with the old Nosler Partitions I use in it, in my 300 Wby before accuracy goes from about .5 - .7 inch at 100 yards to no less than three inches. If the barrel looks like that it just won't shoot well.
Your rifle may be different, but that is some serious fouling there and it is probably worse in other spots. I would get it clean then shoot, clean, shoot, clean, shoot, clean for ten to twenty rounds. It has done wonders for my barrels to do a breakin procedure such as that.
Post by: wooltie on July 31, 2017, 07:35:25 PM
Here's the muzzle.
That could be the issue right there. It doesn't take long, with the old Nosler Partitions I use in it, in my 300 Wby before accuracy goes from about .5 - .7 inch at 100 yards to no less than three inches. If the barrel looks like that it just won't shoot well.
Your rifle may be different, but that is some serious fouling there and it is probably worse in other spots. I would get it clean then shoot, clean, shoot, clean, shoot, clean for ten to twenty rounds. It has done wonders for my barrels to do a breakin procedure such as that. The
Thanks. Right now I'm going back and forth between scrubbing with hoppes 9 and a bronze brush, then dry patches, then scrubbing with sweets and a nylon brush, then dry patches. Repeat.
Post by: wooltie on August 01, 2017, 07:15:58 AM
Here's the muzzle.
That could be the issue right there. It doesn't take long, with the old Nosler Partitions I use in it, in my 300 Wby before accuracy goes from about .5 - .7 inch at 100 yards to no less than three inches. If the barrel looks like that it just won't shoot well.
Your rifle may be different, but that is some serious fouling there and it is probably worse in other spots. I would get it clean then shoot, clean, shoot, clean, shoot, clean for ten to twenty rounds. It has done wonders for my barrels to do a breakin procedure such as that.
I scrubbed it once last night using Sweets and a bronze brush. This nasty, goopy blue stuff just came out like I had not seen before. Must be a lot of copper in there.
Interestingly, I have not had this problem with other rifles -- say a .308, different manufacturer -- and I've used the same cleaning methods.
Post by: Bill W on August 01, 2017, 07:25:34 AM
Post by: JDHasty on August 01, 2017, 08:25:39 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 01, 2017, 08:30:22 AM
Post by: wooltie on August 01, 2017, 09:42:58 AM
Rod makers still use bronze ferrules - even with their carbon fiber rods - stupid. I cover them with heatshrink so they don't contaminate my patches otherwise its hard to tell when the copper is gone. Nylon brushes, no bronze anywhere brush ten strokes with a copper remover follow with a couple wet patches repeat until no more blue.
Thanks. I just did two sessions of hoppes, then Sweets -- one to remove the carbon, the other to remove the copper. I used a nylon brush to scrub the Sweets, and let the Sweets soak in the barrel for like five minutes, then scrub, then wet patch, then scrub, etc., then dry patch.
I can still see trace amounts of copper on the lands at the muzzle, which look like streaks of copper as opposed to like, flat, wide layered sections of copper. But I see no blue coloring on the wet and dry patches when using Sweets.
I suppose I could keep repeat the hoppes, then sweets routine, but I guess that's all I can get out if the wet patches show no signs of bluing.
Post by: JDHasty on August 01, 2017, 09:47:01 AM
Rod makers still use bronze ferrules - even with their carbon fiber rods - stupid. I cover them with heatshrink so they don't contaminate my patches otherwise its hard to tell when the copper is gone. Nylon brushes, no bronze anywhere brush ten strokes with a copper remover follow with a couple wet patches repeat until no more blue.
Thanks. I just did two sessions of hoppes, then Sweets -- one to remove the carbon, the other to remove the copper. I used a nylon brush to scrub the Sweets, and let the Sweets soak in the barrel for like five minutes, then scrub, then wet patch, then scrub, etc., then dry patch.
I can still see trace amounts of copper on the lands at the muzzle, which look like streaks of copper as opposed to like, flat, wide layered sections of copper. But I see no blue coloring on the wet and dry patches when using Sweets.
I suppose I could keep repeat the hoppes, then sweets routine, but I guess that's all I can get out if the wet patches show no signs of bluing.
How fresh is that Sweets? Patches should come out slightly blue if you can see copper in the barrel.
Post by: wooltie on August 01, 2017, 09:48:34 AM
Rod makers still use bronze ferrules - even with their carbon fiber rods - stupid. I cover them with heatshrink so they don't contaminate my patches otherwise its hard to tell when the copper is gone. Nylon brushes, no bronze anywhere brush ten strokes with a copper remover follow with a couple wet patches repeat until no more blue.
Thanks. I just did two sessions of hoppes, then Sweets -- one to remove the carbon, the other to remove the copper. I used a nylon brush to scrub the Sweets, and let the Sweets soak in the barrel for like five minutes, then scrub, then wet patch, then scrub, etc., then dry patch.
I can still see trace amounts of copper on the lands at the muzzle, which look like streaks of copper as opposed to like, flat, wide layered sections of copper. But I see no blue coloring on the wet and dry patches when using Sweets.
I suppose I could keep repeat the hoppes, then sweets routine, but I guess that's all I can get out if the wet patches show no signs of bluing.
How fresh is that Sweets? Patches should come out slightly blue if you can see copper in the barrel.
Oh it's old -- like early 2000's.
Post by: JDHasty on August 01, 2017, 09:51:13 AM
Rod makers still use bronze ferrules - even with their carbon fiber rods - stupid. I cover them with heatshrink so they don't contaminate my patches otherwise its hard to tell when the copper is gone. Nylon brushes, no bronze anywhere brush ten strokes with a copper remover follow with a couple wet patches repeat until no more blue.
Thanks. I just did two sessions of hoppes, then Sweets -- one to remove the carbon, the other to remove the copper. I used a nylon brush to scrub the Sweets, and let the Sweets soak in the barrel for like five minutes, then scrub, then wet patch, then scrub, etc., then dry patch.
I can still see trace amounts of copper on the lands at the muzzle, which look like streaks of copper as opposed to like, flat, wide layered sections of copper. But I see no blue coloring on the wet and dry patches when using Sweets.
I suppose I could keep repeat the hoppes, then sweets routine, but I guess that's all I can get out if the wet patches show no signs of bluing.
How fresh is that Sweets? Patches should come out slightly blue if you can see copper in the barrel.
Oh it's old -- like early 2000's.
You need some fresh stuff. Luckily it isn't as hard to come by as it was for a while.
Post by: wooltie on August 02, 2017, 01:14:32 PM
Went to the range today. I fired one shot, then wet patch, scrub, wet patch, dry patch, etc., to clean the bore after each shot. I repeated this for about 15 shots, at 100 yards. Still no improvement after installing a Timney and thoroughly cleaning the barrel.
Using 150g factory Interlocks, the first two shots were 5" directly high of center. Each shot about 1" apart. Third shot was 4-4.5" high of center, about 1" right. So, I dialed the scope down for 5". Fourth shot was touching center. Okay good. Fifth shot was 2" low, 1" left of center. Sixth shot was 4" low and 1.5" right of center. I grabbed a different box of 150g factory interlocks, but saw no change in performance.
So I switched to 180g factory accubonds.
I had to laugh because the first shot was 5" directly LOW of center. I wasted no time and dialed the scope back up for 5", and the next shot was less than 1" from center, so good enough. The next three shots were 1" high of center, 1" high and 1" left of center, and 1" high and 1" right of center. I ended the day on that.
The scope on the rifle is a leup VX-3i, 3-10. I almost want to swap scopes to see if that's contributing to the issue.
I never properly broke in the barrel, and I've 2-300 rounds through the barrel and never cleaned with a copper removing agent, so so that's on me.
At the range today, the brown/copper initially appeared more in the grooves than in the lands, then moved to building up onto the lands. I'm no scholar at this so I have no idea what this means. But now the lands look like they looked a few days ago, before I deep cleaned them. And I just finished using Sweets and hoppes 9, cleaning here at home. Might need a new bronze brush.
Post by: cboom on August 02, 2017, 05:01:22 PM
I used fresh Sweets yesterday but it was ineffective -- no blue patches. Instead, I continued scrubbing using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush which seemed to remove a lot of carbon and the brown/copper was noticeably less on the lands at the muzzle. I couldn't remove all of it but I could certainly see the steel on the lands. Never saw bluing on the wet or dry patches.
Went to the range today. I fired one shot, then wet patch, scrub, wet patch, dry patch, etc., to clean the bore after each shot. I repeated this for about 15 shots, at 100 yards. Still no improvement after installing a Timney and thoroughly cleaning the barrel.
Using 150g factory Interlocks, the first two shots were 5" directly high of center. Each shot about 1" apart. Third shot was 4-4.5" high of center, about 1" right. So, I dialed the scope down for 5". Fourth shot was touching center. Okay good. Fifth shot was 2" low, 1" left of center. Sixth shot was 4" low and 1.5" right of center. I grabbed a different box of 150g factory interlocks, but saw no change in performance.
So I switched to 180g factory accubonds.
I had to laugh because the first shot was 5" directly LOW of center. I wasted no time and dialed the scope back up for 5", and the next shot was less than 1" from center, so good enough. The next three shots were 1" high of center, 1" high and 1" left of center, and 1" high and 1" right of center. I ended the day on that.
The scope on the rifle is a leup VX-3i, 3-10. I almost want to swap scopes to see if that's contributing to the issue.
I never properly broke in the barrel, and I've 2-300 rounds through the barrel and never cleaned with a copper removing agent, so so that's on me.
At the range today, the brown/copper initially appeared more in the grooves than in the lands, then moved to building up onto the lands. I'm no scholar at this so I have no idea what this means. But now the lands look like they looked a few days ago, before I deep cleaned them. And I just finished using Sweets and hoppes 9, cleaning here at home. Might need a new bronze brush.
That's a lot of copper in that barrel! Do your self a favor and get a bottle of the Barnes stuff and follow the instructions. It will eventually clean it up. That Sweets stuff is garbage.
Post by: Jolten on August 02, 2017, 05:19:59 PM
Post by: JLS on August 02, 2017, 05:49:46 PM
I have barrels I've never done a break in procedure on and they shoot about .75 MOA. I typically shoot 100 or so rounds between cleaning.
Post by: JDHasty on August 02, 2017, 07:07:55 PM
I used fresh Sweets yesterday but it was ineffective -- no blue patches. Instead, I continued scrubbing using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush which seemed to remove a lot of carbon and the brown/copper was noticeably less on the lands at the muzzle. I couldn't remove all of it but I could certainly see the steel on the lands. Never saw bluing on the wet or dry patches.
Went to the range today. I fired one shot, then wet patch, scrub, wet patch, dry patch, etc., to clean the bore after each shot. I repeated this for about 15 shots, at 100 yards. Still no improvement after installing a Timney and thoroughly cleaning the barrel.
Using 150g factory Interlocks, the first two shots were 5" directly high of center. Each shot about 1" apart. Third shot was 4-4.5" high of center, about 1" right. So, I dialed the scope down for 5". Fourth shot was touching center. Okay good. Fifth shot was 2" low, 1" left of center. Sixth shot was 4" low and 1.5" right of center. I grabbed a different box of 150g factory interlocks, but saw no change in performance.
So I switched to 180g factory accubonds.
I had to laugh because the first shot was 5" directly LOW of center. I wasted no time and dialed the scope back up for 5", and the next shot was less than 1" from center, so good enough. The next three shots were 1" high of center, 1" high and 1" left of center, and 1" high and 1" right of center. I ended the day on that.
The scope on the rifle is a leup VX-3i, 3-10. I almost want to swap scopes to see if that's contributing to the issue.
I never properly broke in the barrel, and I've 2-300 rounds through the barrel and never cleaned with a copper removing agent, so so that's on me.
At the range today, the brown/copper initially appeared more in the grooves than in the lands, then moved to building up onto the lands. I'm no scholar at this so I have no idea what this means. But now the lands look like they looked a few days ago, before I deep cleaned them. And I just finished using Sweets and hoppes 9, cleaning here at home. Might need a new bronze brush.
That's a heck of a lot of copper. It is going to be a lot of work getting it out. The Sweets should come out blue and if it isn't something is not right with it
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 02, 2017, 07:49:01 PM
Post by: wooltie on August 02, 2017, 07:54:15 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 02, 2017, 09:15:07 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,216085.msg2879072/topicseen.html#msg2879072
you sure your bases are tight ? Letting barrel cool to similar temps between shots?
Post by: wooltie on August 03, 2017, 06:20:45 AM
Looks like a candidate for firelapping...........
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,216085.msg2879072/topicseen.html#msg2879072
you sure your bases are tight ? Letting barrel cool to similar temps between shots?
Yes, I use a FAT wrench to torque everything to spec -- stock, bases, rings. Nothing moves. I would take a shot, then clean the barrel. So there was like 3-5 min between shots. After 3-4 shots I observed all the copper in the barrel and took that picture. Subsequent shots and cleaning seemed to remove the copper and there was less copper in the barrel by the end. Unless the interlock bullets just foul the barrel like crazy.
Using Sweets and running wet patches seemed to work somewhat -- there was some bluing on the patches. It's funny I'd run a wet Sweet patch through and it'd come out with some blue, then I'd scrub the bore using a nylon brush, then I'd run a dry patch through, which would come out rather clean and no blue. That Sweet stuff is pretty thick compared to solvent, which makes me think that the nylon brush actually removes some of the chemicals from the bore -- as opposed to using wet patches and letting the chemicals suck up the copper.
I'll go back at it today. Spent probably an hour yesterday going back and forth between Sweets and solvent.
Post by: JDHasty on August 03, 2017, 08:24:03 AM
Post by: wooltie on August 03, 2017, 09:00:10 AM
I have spent hours w/my 300 Wby once when I shot it w/o cleaning it for about thirty shots. I learned my lesson.
Should a barrel copper up after only a few shots? I was surprised and also really pissed off when I saw all that bronze in the bore after only a few shots, and after hours of cleaning it the day before.
Post by: JDHasty on August 03, 2017, 09:16:24 AM
I have spent hours w/my 300 Wby once when I shot it w/o cleaning it for about thirty shots. I learned my lesson.
Should a barrel copper up after only a few shots? I was surprised and also really pissed off when I saw all that bronze in the bore after only a few shots, and after hours of cleaning it the day before.
No. But my 300 Wby does and it especially does with the old Partitions that I use. However that rifle will shoot three - five shots out of a clean barrel into well under an inch group. So I still like it just fine. I don't know what it is about that rifle, I don't have any others that copper foul like that one does, but I treasure that barrel and hope to never have to replace it.
Post by: wooltie on August 03, 2017, 09:32:36 AM
I have spent hours w/my 300 Wby once when I shot it w/o cleaning it for about thirty shots. I learned my lesson.
Should a barrel copper up after only a few shots? I was surprised and also really pissed off when I saw all that bronze in the bore after only a few shots, and after hours of cleaning it the day before.
No. But my 300 Wby does and it especially does with the old Partitions that I use. However that rifle will shoot three - five shots out of a clean barrel into well under an inch group. So I still like it just fine. I don't know what it is about that rifle, I don't have any others that copper foul like that one does, but I treasure that barrel and hope to never have to replace it.
Thanks JD. I had a .308 vanguard s2 once, which just about never copper'd up. i mean, I don't recall seeing bronze in the barrel, ever.
I'll get this bore super clean, then return to the range and monitor the bore after each shot -- clean, take picture, shoot, clean, take picture, etc. Just to see what the bore looks like. Maybe that'll tell me something.
That sucks though if your shots open up considerably after only 3-5 shots.
Post by: JDHasty on August 03, 2017, 09:58:36 AM
I have spent hours w/my 300 Wby once when I shot it w/o cleaning it for about thirty shots. I learned my lesson.
Should a barrel copper up after only a few shots? I was surprised and also really pissed off when I saw all that bronze in the bore after only a few shots, and after hours of cleaning it the day before.
No. But my 300 Wby does and it especially does with the old Partitions that I use. However that rifle will shoot three - five shots out of a clean barrel into well under an inch group. So I still like it just fine. I don't know what it is about that rifle, I don't have any others that copper foul like that one does, but I treasure that barrel and hope to never have to replace it.
Thanks JD. I had a .308 vanguard s2 once, which just about never copper'd up. i mean, I don't recall seeing bronze in the barrel, ever.
I'll get this bore super clean, then return to the range and monitor the bore after each shot -- clean, take picture, shoot, clean, take picture, etc. Just to see what the bore looks like. Maybe that'll tell me something.
That sucks though if your shots open up considerably after only 3-5 shots.
I shoot big game with that rifle and it serves me well. I take it over to the range every year and shoot two or three shots and go hunting. It's basicly the same platform as my Model 70 SA Heavy Varmint in 243 that I shoot chucks with so I get lots and lots of practice with a model 70 every year w/o using the 300 barrel up.
My buddy bought the same exact factory McMillan stocked model 70 Winlite 300 Wby back in about 1991 and proceed to go out prairie dog shooting with it. Needless to say the throat was soon burned out and the barrel had to be replaced.
Post by: Bill W on August 03, 2017, 10:19:37 AM
If your gun is coppering up as much as it seems in the pictures you may need to polish out some rough edges. You can either hand lap the barrel, firelap it which is easier but harder to control, or burnish out the barrel via the shoot one, clean, shoot one, clean.... method. All three will get you there but firelapping also affects the throating area.
Post by: JDHasty on August 03, 2017, 10:39:09 AM
looks like this discussion has changed from "bench rest shooting techniques" to "bench rest CLEANING techniques". Also another good bit of info.
If your gun is coppering up as much as it seems in the pictures you may need to polish out some rough edges. You can either hand lap the barrel, firelap it which is easier but harder to control, or burnish out the barrel via the shoot one, clean, shoot one, clean.... method. All three will get you there but firelapping also affects the throating area.
I would be highly reluctant to attempt to lap any barrel with anything more abrasive than JB. It is far easier (exponentially so) to ruin a barrel by amateur lapping than to improve it in any way. Lapping a barrel is a job best left to an experienced professional.
Post by: wooltie on August 03, 2017, 10:42:28 AM
After, I will shoot one, clean one, picture; repeat to monitor what happens once I get the dang thing clean. Then I'll evaluate. I mean, if groups go south after 5-10 shots, then at least I know the limit and can stop chasing groups.
Post by: Bill W on August 03, 2017, 10:58:20 AM
I intended to clean the bore until all the copper is gone. The copper is going away, albeit slowly, but going away. Just takes time. Running wet patches of Sweets, then drying out and running solvent and brush seems to be working.
After, I will shoot one, clean one, picture; repeat to monitor what happens once I get the dang thing clean. Then I'll evaluate. I mean, if groups go south after 5-10 shots, then at least I know the limit and can stop chasing groups.
I've shot score competition in the past and at one time shot a bunch of shots at a target just to note the POI. With this one powder the shots hit in one group until about the 6th shot, then drop down to the center of the bullseye and after about the 22nd or so shot then drop down one bullet hole for each subsequent shot. A good thing to know.
Post by: wooltie on August 03, 2017, 11:10:37 AM
So, I got serious last year by buying better rests, focusing on consistent setup, setting up the rifle well (stock, trigger, torqued, good optics) and shooting more often just to practice. I never thought this copper thing could be the issue, so we'll see what happens. But I really appreciate everyone's input and being willing to help me out.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on August 03, 2017, 11:42:12 AM
Post by: JLS on August 03, 2017, 02:26:25 PM
I would try the spray in foam copper remover. Keep repeating it until the color of the cleaning rag patch is clean.
Yep, you are making your job much harder than it needs to be.
Post by: wooltie on August 04, 2017, 03:41:26 PM
Post by: JDHasty on August 04, 2017, 09:43:16 PM
I make no guarantees as to the stupid thing ever shooting, but it will not with copper like that in the barrel. In my experience.
Get it clean and we will go from there. I have provided advice I am comfortable with, but however it is actually down to the raw barrel, once it is there I have a few suggestions and one may be that you have put a lot of effort into a bad barrel.
But you will not know until it is actually clean.
Just my :twocents:, for what that is worth, and it may have nothing to do with the fouling issue.
I've been to that fire and it sometimes becomes an issue of how much "good money you want to throw after bad." And then sometimes it becomes a matter of pride and: By God as my witness I will get this POS to shoot. Just sell it and move on. I've been there too. It is a fully capable big game rifle and you have nothing to regret from selling it as such. A varmint rifle... not so much.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 04, 2017, 09:59:16 PM
Post by: wooltie on August 04, 2017, 11:01:47 PM
Wootie,
I make no guarantees as to the stupid thing ever shooting, but it will not with copper like that in the barrel. In my experience.
Get it clean and we will go from there. I have provided advice I am comfortable with, but however it is actually down to the raw barrel, once it is there I have a few suggestions and one may be that you have put a lot of effort into a bad barrel.
But you will not know until it is actually clean.
Just my :twocents:, for what that is worth, and it may have nothing to do with the fouling issue.
I've been to that fire and it sometimes becomes an issue of how much "good money you want to throw after bad." And then sometimes it becomes a matter of pride and: By God as my witness I will get this POS to shoot. Just sell it and move on. I've been there too. It is a fully capable big game rifle and you have nothing to regret from selling it as such. A varmint rifle... not so much.
Oh I can keep working on it I just don't know the point where I'd say it's clean. I mean should the lands be shiny with bright reflection? If so then I'll keep at it until it's there.
If it gets to that clean point and still fails to perform for me and others, then it's time to swap barrels or something.
Post by: Bill W on August 05, 2017, 08:42:10 AM
Post by: wooltie on August 08, 2017, 01:07:19 AM
Mine looks a lil like yours on the right after 20 rounds when its ready to be cleaned. Wish I was close I'd like to hit it with a brush soaked with Bore Tech Copper Remover followed by a few dozen strokes of Isso just to see how stubborn that copper is.....
I'll probably pick up some of that remover. I spent a few hours tonight using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush. Still seeing a lot of wet, black patches after 20 strokes w/the brush. The lands are looking better in that I can see some silver on them instead of brown.
Do you ever get your lands to return silver once your rifles are clean?
Post by: JDHasty on August 08, 2017, 08:59:34 AM
Mine looks a lil like yours on the right after 20 rounds when its ready to be cleaned. Wish I was close I'd like to hit it with a brush soaked with Bore Tech Copper Remover followed by a few dozen strokes of Isso just to see how stubborn that copper is.....
I'll probably pick up some of that remover. I spent a few hours tonight using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush. Still seeing a lot of wet, black patches after 20 strokes w/the brush. The lands are looking better in that I can see some silver on them instead of brown.
Do you ever get your lands to return silver once your rifles are clean?
That is the copper remover I am currently using and it is aggressive on copper and seems to be easy on barrels. I have worked on guns belonging to others that took forever to get clean down to the bore and once clean they were bright and shiny. On older guns that were used before non-corrosive ammo bores will frequently never get to a shiny state. They look dark even though clean, but it is surprising how well a lot of dark bores have shot once clean.
Post by: wooltie on August 08, 2017, 10:57:24 AM
Mine looks a lil like yours on the right after 20 rounds when its ready to be cleaned. Wish I was close I'd like to hit it with a brush soaked with Bore Tech Copper Remover followed by a few dozen strokes of Isso just to see how stubborn that copper is.....
I'll probably pick up some of that remover. I spent a few hours tonight using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush. Still seeing a lot of wet, black patches after 20 strokes w/the brush. The lands are looking better in that I can see some silver on them instead of brown.
Do you ever get your lands to return silver once your rifles are clean?
That is the copper remover I am currently using and it is aggressive on copper and seems to be easy on barrels. I have worked on guns belonging to others that took forever to get clean down to the bore and once clean they were bright and shiny. On older guns that were used before non-corrosive ammo bores will frequently never get to a shiny state. They look dark even though clean, but it is surprising how well a lot of dark bores have shot once clean.
I ordered that cleaner. Went to the range today. Stopped shooting after 6 rounds of hornady ELD-X because only 2 rounds made it on the paper at 100 yards. This was the shoot, clean, shoot, clean approach. The lands coppered up of course, and the grooves were a little brown.
I won't shoot it again until the bore is shiny clean. This rifle was manufactured about 3 years ago, so it's newer and has seen modern ammo.
It's weird how all of the sudden the dang thing had a hard time keeping on paper. Nothing else has changed in my setup.
Post by: JDHasty on August 08, 2017, 12:16:39 PM
Mine looks a lil like yours on the right after 20 rounds when its ready to be cleaned. Wish I was close I'd like to hit it with a brush soaked with Bore Tech Copper Remover followed by a few dozen strokes of Isso just to see how stubborn that copper is.....
I'll probably pick up some of that remover. I spent a few hours tonight using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush. Still seeing a lot of wet, black patches after 20 strokes w/the brush. The lands are looking better in that I can see some silver on them instead of brown.
Do you ever get your lands to return silver once your rifles are clean?
That is the copper remover I am currently using and it is aggressive on copper and seems to be easy on barrels. I have worked on guns belonging to others that took forever to get clean down to the bore and once clean they were bright and shiny. On older guns that were used before non-corrosive ammo bores will frequently never get to a shiny state. They look dark even though clean, but it is surprising how well a lot of dark bores have shot once clean.
I ordered that cleaner. Went to the range today. Stopped shooting after 6 rounds of hornady ELD-X because only 2 rounds made it on the paper at 100 yards. This was the shoot, clean, shoot, clean approach. The lands coppered up of course, and the grooves were a little brown.
I won't shoot it again until the bore is shiny clean. This rifle was manufactured about 3 years ago, so it's newer and has seen modern ammo.
It's weird how all of the sudden the dang thing had a hard time keeping on paper. Nothing else has changed in my setup.
I have seen this happen with solid copper bullets more than any others. But it happens with the really old Partitions too and when it starts to copper up it is only a couple shots before it will start to strip the jackets and at that point it is hard to hit a paper plate at 100 yards.
Post by: wooltie on August 08, 2017, 12:29:31 PM
Mine looks a lil like yours on the right after 20 rounds when its ready to be cleaned. Wish I was close I'd like to hit it with a brush soaked with Bore Tech Copper Remover followed by a few dozen strokes of Isso just to see how stubborn that copper is.....
I'll probably pick up some of that remover. I spent a few hours tonight using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush. Still seeing a lot of wet, black patches after 20 strokes w/the brush. The lands are looking better in that I can see some silver on them instead of brown.
Do you ever get your lands to return silver once your rifles are clean?
That is the copper remover I am currently using and it is aggressive on copper and seems to be easy on barrels. I have worked on guns belonging to others that took forever to get clean down to the bore and once clean they were bright and shiny. On older guns that were used before non-corrosive ammo bores will frequently never get to a shiny state. They look dark even though clean, but it is surprising how well a lot of dark bores have shot once clean.
I ordered that cleaner. Went to the range today. Stopped shooting after 6 rounds of hornady ELD-X because only 2 rounds made it on the paper at 100 yards. This was the shoot, clean, shoot, clean approach. The lands coppered up of course, and the grooves were a little brown.
I won't shoot it again until the bore is shiny clean. This rifle was manufactured about 3 years ago, so it's newer and has seen modern ammo.
It's weird how all of the sudden the dang thing had a hard time keeping on paper. Nothing else has changed in my setup.
I have seen this happen with solid copper bullets more than any others. But it happens with the really old Partitions too and when it starts to copper up it is only a couple shots before it will start to strip the jackets and at that point it is hard to hit a paper plate at 100 yards.
I've never shot all copper bullets. Always interlocks or a bonded bullet. Before shooting the lands looked kinda brown but you could see silver starting to poke through. This picture was taken after the first shot, after cleaning. The copper is quite evident whereas before the lands just had a shade of brown to them.
Post by: Jolten on August 08, 2017, 03:02:29 PM
Post by: wooltie on August 10, 2017, 07:55:50 PM
Bore tech cu2 copper remover is amazing stuff.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 10, 2017, 08:45:02 PM
Copper is gone.
Bore tech cu2 copper remover is amazing stuff.
:tup: Glad its working for you. I just use the regular Boretech Eliminator now but for tough stuff its a great goto.
Now see if groups are any better ??? Gotta shoot at least one fouling shot to clear barrel otherwise first shot will be 30-40 fps slower with the lube in there usually.
Post by: wooltie on August 11, 2017, 04:25:52 PM
Copper is gone.
Bore tech cu2 copper remover is amazing stuff.
:tup: Glad its working for you. I just use the regular Boretech Eliminator now but for tough stuff its a great goto.
Now see if groups are any better ??? Gotta shoot at least one fouling shot to clear barrel otherwise first shot will be 30-40 fps slower with the lube in there usually.
Well glad to know it was ME so far...
First 5 shots grouped larger than MOA, though 3 of the 5 were touching. Shots 9-11 were MOA close enough, and shots 10-11 were touching.
I would shoot, clean with Butch's/wet patches/then dry. After 5 shots I cleaned with the Boretech CU2. Next four shots same as the first 5. Then, last three were back to back, amount 2-3 mins between shots.
I noted that Butch's was removing copper as evident by the blue patches. I never got the blue patches to go away after a shot -- the blue would just minimize to light traces created from the patches tracing the lands. Dunno what that means, other than there was still copper in the barrel.
I read somewhere that the idea is to break in the barrel so that carbon gets on the lands and prevents the copper from accumulating on the lands.
I don't -- each shooter seems to have an idea of what works well for them. But I do suspect that an aftermarket SS barrel vs a factory barrel behave differently.
For now I'm just going to keep the thing clean and continue shooting, and just monitor performance.
Thanks everyone.
Post by: JDHasty on August 12, 2017, 07:28:49 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 12, 2017, 08:33:37 AM
Post by: wooltie on August 13, 2017, 07:51:36 AM
The lands have a smooth, uniform layer of copper on them now, after the dozen or so rounds from a few days ago. The copper covers the entire land--top, side, and a small section of the bore adjacent to the side of the land.
I don't know what that means -- if copper should accumulate like that, or if that's the barrel, of if there's still copper on the lands and keep accumulating more each time I shoot it.
I'm looking into getting the barrel hand lapped. My buddy had his done and says the smith time is rather inexpensive.
Post by: wooltie on August 24, 2017, 11:09:15 AM
On a positive note, I shot my other rifle today--same caliber, same ammo, same benchrest setup, same brand stock, same brand lapped rings, same cleaning routine.
This barrel has maybe 20-30 rounds down it, so I did a proper break in. All shots were MOA or less, some were touching. After 8 shots I had walked the scope over to center. 8th shot was dead center.
So I don't think it's me; I think the barrel is just jacked up and that's why it won't group at all. If I can get it clean, and it won't stop coppering up fast, then I'll just replace the barrel.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 24, 2017, 06:48:32 PM
Post by: wooltie on August 29, 2017, 08:38:13 PM
I shot the rifle, cleaning w/Butch's after each shot, but the lands developed a sheen of copper after only a few shots--like the entire land is covered in orange.
My A-Bolt II has seen at most 50 rounds and the lands and grooves are still silver. I see next to no copper on the lands after shooting this rifle.
I guess I can work the JB in this rifle to see if I can get the lands to return to silver, but I don't know if that will happen. I use an old bore brush covered in a patch w/JB, going back and for 50-100 times.
I think the bore just has issues.
Post by: JLS on August 30, 2017, 07:43:01 AM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on August 30, 2017, 08:26:00 AM
Post by: Bill W on August 30, 2017, 09:25:48 AM
Your scope might been having issues inside that you can't see. Who made the scope ? Try another scope. Mine did the same exact thing as you're describing.
good advice to verify with a different scope. I've had a couple over the years that have had the innards knocked loose.
Post by: wooltie on August 30, 2017, 09:26:02 AM
Your scope might been having issues inside that you can't see. Who made the scope ? Try another scope. Mine did the same exact thing as you're describing.
I never considered the scope as the cause of the issues because it is a loop VX-3i I purchased new last year. Figured the risk was low. But I could always swap scopes real quick to verify that the bore is the cause, not the scope. I haven't adjusted the scope when I've shot the rifle the last few times. It shoots onto paper, but doesn't group.
Using JB to clean the bore removed all the brown coloring from the lands and grooves, so I figured I would be re-breaking in the barrel. So I cleaned the bore after each shot, letting the shots land where they would. Shots 2-4 groupded decently, but off target. Shot 5 was dead center. Then shots started going 3" high, 4" low, 2" high etc., all while I watched copper accumulate on the lands. I mean, the lands are covered in a sheet of copper after only 2 shots.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on August 30, 2017, 11:10:36 AM
Your scope might been having issues inside that you can't see. Who made the scope ? Try another scope. Mine did the same exact thing as you're describing.
I never considered the scope as the cause of the issues because it is a loop VX-3i I purchased new last year. Figured the risk was low. But I could always swap scopes real quick to verify that the bore is the cause, not the scope. I haven't adjusted the scope when I've shot the rifle the last few times. It shoots onto paper, but doesn't group.
Using JB to clean the bore removed all the brown coloring from the lands and grooves, so I figured I would be re-breaking in the barrel.
So I cleaned the bore after each shot, letting the shots land where they would. Shots 2-4 groupded decently, but off target. Shot 5 was dead center. Then shots started going 3" high, 4" low, 2" high etc., all while I watched copper accumulate on the lands. I mean, the lands are covered in a sheet of copper after only 2 shots.
Try calling Leupold and describe your problem. Could very well be the reason. I don't know why it would be all over the place when you've done your part. I bet it's a scope problem.
Post by: Bill W on August 30, 2017, 12:17:19 PM
Post by: wooltie on August 30, 2017, 12:25:46 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on August 30, 2017, 12:48:39 PM
Yeah I have a Nikon I can pop on in lieu of the Loop. I'm going to laugh if the gun shoots just fine with all that copper in it, and sadly conclude that the scope was actually the problem.
Hopefully I'm right and problem solved. Leupold will fix it and carry on...
Post by: JimmyHoffa on August 30, 2017, 10:13:41 PM
put it on a gun you've shot before and know how it shoots. If the scope has issues it will show up.Yeah, sage advice. I was convinced one year that the scope must have been the issue. Put the suspect scope on the back up rifle and a back up scope on the primary rifle. The rifle with the back up scope was still shooting poorly, and the back up rifle was shooting great. Good way to eliminate variables.
Post by: wooltie on September 21, 2017, 08:44:59 AM
Four shots later from a clean bore, and man you should see how much copper is on the lands and in the grooves.
Gun is still under warranty from Winchester so I'm sending it in for evaluation. Hopefully Winchester will install a new barrel.
Post by: wooltie on November 03, 2017, 10:04:23 AM
Shot the gun, verified POI and supposedly will send me the target and ammo used along with the gun.
Haven't received it yet, but hopefully this resolves the issue.
Post by: JDHasty on November 03, 2017, 10:41:41 AM
Sent the gun to winchester. Their best smith looked at it and determined that the end of the barrel was rough, so he hand lapped the barrel.
Shot the gun, verified POI and supposedly will send me the target and ammo used along with the gun.
Haven't received it yet, but hopefully this resolves the issue.
It will be great to hear how it works out.
Post by: wooltie on November 20, 2017, 02:13:54 PM
Sent the gun to winchester. Their best smith looked at it and determined that the end of the barrel was rough, so he hand lapped the barrel.
Shot the gun, verified POI and supposedly will send me the target and ammo used along with the gun.
Haven't received it yet, but hopefully this resolves the issue.
It will be great to hear how it works out.
Well, it didn't/hasn't worked out so far.
I shot 13 rounds from a clean bore, waiting 2 minutes between shots and not cleaning the bore between shots. I used fresh, factory hornady interlock ammo.
Shots 1-4 fouled the barrel. Shots 5-8 were on target. Shots 9-13 alternated between on target and 2" high/2" to the right.
All together-- 4 were foulers, 6 were on target, and 3 were high and right.
And the lands at the muzzle are coated in copper, just like before I sent the gun off to Winchester for service. Conversely, I shot my A-bolt this season (and hunted with it) used the same bench setup and ammo (same caliber) and put .5 MOA groups at 200 yards. After 10-15 rounds down down the pipe, the barrel on that gun shows almost no signs of copper.
I think I'll just have a new barrel installed in the Winchester. Tired of messing around with it.
Post by: KFhunter on November 20, 2017, 10:14:34 PM
Post by: wooltie on February 21, 2018, 10:27:40 AM