Post by: drysideshooter on October 24, 2017, 10:56:18 AM
My typical coyote rifles are 22-250 and 223, though I have also killed quite a few with 308 and 30-06, and even a 340 Weatherby Mag. I read in another thread that someone said if they even "nick" a coyote with their 180 grain bullet it dies. That's plain stupidity. There isn't enough energy transferred by a "nick" to kill a coyote. I've shot a fair number with an 06 shooting 168 grain Barnes TTSX. With a solid hit they die pretty much instantly, and a projectile with more energy can kill or incapacitate better than a lower energy rounds if it's a marginal hit. With a bad hit they can also cause plenty of suffering and a slow death.
I was raised to respect my quarry, and to make sure my skills and judgment are good enough to assure quick kills the majority of the time. I'm somewhat saddened and disgusted by some of the attitudes displayed here in the forums.
Post by: ThomMedic on October 25, 2017, 04:56:08 PM
Post by: Gringo31 on October 26, 2017, 11:55:34 AM
Don't think I have anyway.... :dunno:
Post by: Gringo31 on October 26, 2017, 01:38:07 PM
Not sure this is really a debate but yes, I do treat them a little differently. I'll shoot at a running coyote and risk a poor hit where I wouldn't take that shot on a deer or elk. I've lost deer before and it sucks real bad. Fact is, speaking for myself, I don't have those same feelings for coyotes, pigeons, starlings, mice etc. :chuckle:
Post by: Doublelunger on October 26, 2017, 01:44:49 PM
I saw the other thread. (now)
Not sure this is really a debate but yes, I do treat them a little differently. I'll shoot at a running coyote and risk a poor hit where I wouldn't take that shot on a deer or elk. I've lost deer before and it sucks real bad. Fact is, speaking for myself, I don't have those same feelings for coyotes, pigeons, starlings, mice etc. :chuckle:
:yeah: I don't try to make a habit out of wounding any animal even coyotes, but I'll take lower probablilty shots on coyotes than I would on big game and not lose as much sleep if I don't find them.
Post by: drysideshooter on October 27, 2017, 06:46:22 AM
Some of the posts in the other thread have been removed.
I'm curious as to why some look at wounding a coyote and it getting away differently than wounding something like a deer? Is it because with the deer they also don't get the meat, or is it because a deer is a beautiful, gentle herbivore and the coyote is a canine predator? In my mind, and maybe I'm in the minority, to cause any animal to suffer needlessly because I took a shot I probably shouldn't have is a bad thing. I grew up and spent 33 years of my life in Alaska. I've shot a lot of predators. I've also shot moose and caribou. To my way of thinking they all deserve quick, ethical kills. The fact that predators hunt, and kill other animals doesn't come into the equation. It's nature, and it's how they survive. Sure, a wolf or cougar taking down an Elk may look horrific to some, and the elk no doubt experiences a period of severe pain. It's how predators survive, and I don't feel that it's a hunters place to somehow judge them and deem them worthy of any less respect than any other quarry.
I've noticed for years with many folks there seems to be a direct correlation between the size of an animal and the perceived value of their life and suffering. I think that's interesting, and I'm not sure I completely understand it.
Post by: Gringo31 on October 27, 2017, 09:57:00 AM
Quote
I'm curious as to why some look at wounding a coyote and it getting away differently than wounding something like a deer?
Because as you can see from the pics I just posted, for me it's personal. I have livestock to protect, I value our natural resources, I have a kill em all attitude. Winter time forces all living things in my neck of the woods into these smaller critical habitat areas....it is the choke point in my areas carrying capacity. You'll find the deer, coyotes, pheasants, quail etc. all stacked up in these areas looking to survive. If I can put a pounding on the coyotes in the winter, more animals (that I value) survive.
I don't look at all animals the same. Just don't. I believe in conservation not preservation. If in my quest to remove the predatory burden, I wound one.....that's the way it goes. Ol' Mr. Yote doesn't exactly have feelings. When he chases deer across the ice or whatever he does to survive.....he does it ruthlessly. I don't blame him, just accept him for what he is, a tax on my natural resource profits. I like to limit taxes :tup:
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 27, 2017, 10:00:51 AM
I saw the other thread. (now)
Not sure this is really a debate but yes, I do treat them a little differently. I'll shoot at a running coyote and risk a poor hit where I wouldn't take that shot on a deer or elk. I've lost deer before and it sucks real bad. Fact is, speaking for myself, I don't have those same feelings for coyotes, pigeons, starlings, mice etc. :chuckle:
:yeah: Too many predators in WA. I'll take a risky shot on a coyote I wouldn't otherwise risk.
Post by: Gringo31 on October 27, 2017, 10:03:24 AM
Quote
I've noticed for years with many folks there seems to be a direct correlation between the size of an animal and the perceived value of their life and suffering. I think that's interesting, and I'm not sure I completely understand it.
Just for discussion's sake. I would venture to guess you don't go to the bug zapper and inspect that some of the flies don't just have a burnt wing, alive but unable to survive. I'd guess you've used decon for mice, sticky traps or even fly strips.
Don't mistake my statement to assume that I intend to wound or cause suffering. That's not the case AT ALL. I probably shoot around 35-70 coyotes a winter. I've killed 4 this week. I've learned to aim on the shoulder vs. behind so they never take a step. But like I said, speaking for me, I feel terrible if I loose a duck or even a dove. If I lose a coyote? Yeah, well......it happens and it doesn't bother me. He's either not long for the world (my intent anyway) or I'll get him next time.
Post by: jjaba on October 27, 2017, 10:39:28 AM
Post by: drysideshooter on October 27, 2017, 01:18:13 PM
Post by: YoungFowler on October 27, 2017, 01:30:22 PM
Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on October 27, 2017, 02:00:24 PM
Thinking back to the campaign to ban hounds and baiting, I would think it fair to say that none of those hunters who posted videos on youtube ever thought those videos would ever be used against them to help take hound hunting and baiting away.
We all have seen examples of how the anti's know they can't win an outright victory, so they settle for piecemeal victories, example bobcat trapping in California a couple years ago.
I am not saying never post anything, but maybe a little forethought in choice of images or words used, because there is always a chance they will come back in a negative way... just my :twocents:
Some will agree, some will no doubt say I am being too sensitive, we all know the saying about opinions...but doesn't change the effectivness those youtube videos had on voters.
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 27, 2017, 02:20:25 PM
One of my best friends is a cattleman, he has thousands of head of cattle in several states. He has seen coyotes eating half born calves while the cow is of course freaking out. He has lost animals to cougar. He tries to eradicate all of the predators he can because it's also his livelihood that is affected. He know that predators do what they do to survive. Cattle graze, predators hunt. He still believes, strongly, that the predators he kills deserve to die quickly. He won't pass up an opportunity to kill one, but I know for a fact that when he wounds one he dispatches it quickly if he can, or tries to locate it. Honestly, if he felt any other way we obviously wouldn't be friends. I'm still really surprised at the attitudes of so many folks. Just because an animal doing what they do naturally effects you doesn't mean it's okay if they suffer. Not in my mind anyway. I know nobody is advocating torturing animals like coyotes, but some of the attitudes about it being okay if they're caused do suffer is a bit shocking.
We're not saying anything different from your cattleman friend. I'm not going to stand there and watch as they flop around and no one else is saying that either. None of us have said they'd like to see or would allow them to suffer. Not sure where you think you're going with this. :dunno:
Post by: drysideshooter on October 27, 2017, 02:26:15 PM
One of my best friends is a cattleman, he has thousands of head of cattle in several states. He has seen coyotes eating half born calves while the cow is of course freaking out. He has lost animals to cougar. He tries to eradicate all of the predators he can because it's also his livelihood that is affected. He know that predators do what they do to survive. Cattle graze, predators hunt. He still believes, strongly, that the predators he kills deserve to die quickly. He won't pass up an opportunity to kill one, but I know for a fact that when he wounds one he dispatches it quickly if he can, or tries to locate it. Honestly, if he felt any other way we obviously wouldn't be friends. I'm still really surprised at the attitudes of so many folks. Just because an animal doing what they do naturally effects you doesn't mean it's okay if they suffer. Not in my mind anyway. I know nobody is advocating torturing animals like coyotes, but some of the attitudes about it being okay if they're caused do suffer is a bit shocking.
We're not saying anything different from your cattleman friend. I'm not going to stand there and watch as they flop around and no one else is saying that either. None of us have said they'd like to see or would allow them to suffer. Not sure where you think you're going with this. :dunno:
Not really going anywhere. Folks have said they will take a more questionable shot on a coyote than a deer or elk or other animal they have personally different feelings about. Not saying it's right or wrong, just interesting how most of us obviously place different values on different forms of life. I'm wondering how many others of them have heard a man, especially a friend, die? Have they ever held someone as they take their last breath, and long enough for their muscles to relax as their bowels and bladder empty? Have they heard the screams, even of an enemy, after they've been shot? I can promise that certain life experiences can change the way folks feel about any type of suffering, and everyone has had a different journey to get to where they are, and have differing reasons for why they feel the way they do.
Post by: KFhunter on October 27, 2017, 02:32:55 PM
Sorry, went fishing and chukar hunting in the Hells Canyon area and was gone for a couple of days.
Some of the posts in the other thread have been removed.
I'm curious as to why some look at wounding a coyote and it getting away differently than wounding something like a deer? Is it because with the deer they also don't get the meat, or is it because a deer is a beautiful, gentle herbivore and the coyote is a canine predator? In my mind, and maybe I'm in the minority, to cause any animal to suffer needlessly because I took a shot I probably shouldn't have is a bad thing. I grew up and spent 33 years of my life in Alaska. I've shot a lot of predators. I've also shot moose and caribou. To my way of thinking they all deserve quick, ethical kills. The fact that predators hunt, and kill other animals doesn't come into the equation. It's nature, and it's how they survive. Sure, a wolf or cougar taking down an Elk may look horrific to some, and the elk no doubt experiences a period of severe pain. It's how predators survive, and I don't feel that it's a hunters place to somehow judge them and deem them worthy of any less respect than any other quarry.
I've noticed for years with many folks there seems to be a direct correlation between the size of an animal and the perceived value of their life and suffering. I think that's interesting, and I'm not sure I completely understand it.
I'm like gringo, I'll take a shot at a coyote that I wouldn't ever take on a deer. I'll shot a coyote on the run, shoot at a coyote way beyond the range I'd shoot a deer, I'll even guesstimate where I should hold and send a hailmary shot on a coyote just hoping to "get a piece of him", I'd never do so with a deer/elk or other valued game animal where every shot is precisely placed.
Do I want the coyote to suffer? no, I don't humanize them in that regard. In order to hate something enough to want it to suffer you have to humanize or anthropomorphize it to some degree which I don't do. coyotes are simply vermin to me, vermin that are over populated and cut into the population of valued game animals and worse depredate livestock.
If I see a coyote down and it's tail spinning circles I'll go finish it off right away.
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 27, 2017, 03:35:14 PM
I've never been in combat but as a medic, I've held the hands of a few as they took their last breath. That doesn't change the fact that killing coyotes saves lives and that's why I'd take a running shot at a coyote and not at an elk or deer. If I didn't kill it with the first shot, I would shortly thereafter. I don't want to see animals suffer either. You get exactly what I'm saying. Saying any more is redundant. Thanks for the discussion.One of my best friends is a cattleman, he has thousands of head of cattle in several states. He has seen coyotes eating half born calves while the cow is of course freaking out. He has lost animals to cougar. He tries to eradicate all of the predators he can because it's also his livelihood that is affected. He know that predators do what they do to survive. Cattle graze, predators hunt. He still believes, strongly, that the predators he kills deserve to die quickly. He won't pass up an opportunity to kill one, but I know for a fact that when he wounds one he dispatches it quickly if he can, or tries to locate it. Honestly, if he felt any other way we obviously wouldn't be friends. I'm still really surprised at the attitudes of so many folks. Just because an animal doing what they do naturally effects you doesn't mean it's okay if they suffer. Not in my mind anyway. I know nobody is advocating torturing animals like coyotes, but some of the attitudes about it being okay if they're caused do suffer is a bit shocking.
We're not saying anything different from your cattleman friend. I'm not going to stand there and watch as they flop around and no one else is saying that either. None of us have said they'd like to see or would allow them to suffer. Not sure where you think you're going with this. :dunno:
Not really going anywhere. Folks have said they will take a more questionable shot on a coyote than a deer or elk or other animal they have personally different feelings about. Not saying it's right or wrong, just interesting how most of us obviously place different values on different forms of life. I'm wondering how many others of them have heard a man, especially a friend, die? Have they ever held someone as they take their last breath, and long enough for their muscles to relax as their bowels and bladder empty? Have they heard the screams, even of an enemy, after they've been shot? I can promise that certain life experiences can change the way folks feel about any type of suffering, and everyone has had a different journey to get to where they are, and have differing reasons for why they feel the way they do.
Post by: Gringo31 on October 27, 2017, 04:23:33 PM
Has nothing to do with "anti's"
Ok
Gringo out
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on October 27, 2017, 05:14:32 PM
I'm a little lost on how pics of a cow a group of coyotes killed is in poor taste. It's what we try to prevent???
Has nothing to do with "anti's"
Ok
Gringo out
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nothing to do with those pictures, it was in regards to the post about keeping the pictures in "Good taste," and hopefully giving some perspective for future consideration.
Sorry if you thought it was about those particular pictures, it was not in any way related to them. I agree, there needs to more like them to show exactly why hunting is a necessary and needed tool.
EDIT: Just to be perfectly clear, so hopefully not to get any other backs up, I was talking about dead animals like coyotes and such, and statements such as not caring if they suffer, not as important as a deer, etc. Again, just General zation, not calling any particular person out!!
But to think there is no risk from the anti's grabbing onto things like that is foolish, again, refer back to the commercials with the youtube videos of hounds with bears and cats treed during the campagian to ban hounds and baiting.
Believe it or not, like it or not, there is real possibility that things like that could be used against hunting on many levels.
Will it stop it? I don't know, probably not, but why freely give them things that makes us look bad?
Show the chewed up and uneatten calf, then show the dead coyote in a manner that looks presentable to someone who may never have seen such things, because that is the person who will ultimatly be deciding what happens when it comes time to vote.
And again, make no mistake, they are and will use the ballot method simply because it is a game of numbers...way more non-hunters (both anti and possibly netrual, but uninformed) than hunters when it is time to vote.
Post by: JakeLand on October 27, 2017, 09:47:31 PM
Post by: ELKBURGER on November 12, 2017, 06:24:01 AM
You speak with any Game warden and they will stress on you to shoot every coyote you see . I personally will take every opportunity to shoot every yote I see and if it's a bad shot which I never intend but if it does happen I won't lose no sleep over it . My only :twocents:Washington obviously has an issue with predators. Coyotes are a yearound, unlimited, resource. There is no weapon or baiting restriction. They are prolific as hell, too. But respecting them as Gods creation important. Intentionally wounding for thrill is criminal.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 12, 2017, 06:55:33 AM
Post by: Gringo31 on November 13, 2017, 07:20:59 AM
Quote
Intentionally wounding for thrill is criminal.
Talk about getting me wound up... No one intentionally wounds coyotes. No one intentionally wounds for thrill.
What's your point and why even say it?
Is it possible that someone out there does? I suppose. Do little kids pull wings off of house flies to see what happens? Probably. NOT THE POINT.
Post by: ELKBURGER on November 13, 2017, 01:20:35 PM
I am just reiterating everyones stance. Not wound up.... Not accusing anyone....QuoteIntentionally wounding for thrill is criminal.
Talk about getting me wound up... No one intentionally wounds coyotes. No one intentionally wounds for thrill.
What's your point and why even say it?
Is it possible that someone out there does? I suppose. Do little kids pull wings off of house flies to see what happens? Probably. NOT THE POINT.
Post by: KFhunter on November 14, 2017, 12:37:05 PM
truth is we have far too many coyotes, I used to have 50 to 100 deer in my field every night back in the 90's (I used to trap coyotes with leg holds) but now I've only got a few resident does who are lucky to raise a fawn. This year I have zero fawns in the resident herd of deer and only about 4 does left. I don't even fence off my hay pile anymore, they get their fill each night.
4 does and a nice buck isn't a lot of hay anyways. They have their choice of horse grass hay or premium alfalfa they don't touch the horse hay :chuckle:
Post by: drysideshooter on November 16, 2017, 09:08:20 AM
Coyotes aren't ethical.....
That's one of the most idiotic things I've read in a while. They are a predator, no different than a cougar or other predators. The fact that so many obviously don't give a darn about a fast, ethical kill with regard to animals like coyotes is just disgusting and doesn't speak well of our sport. I have a relative that is a big cattle rancher. He has seen coyotes eating half born calves as the cow giving birth helplessly freaks out. It's nature at work. It's not always pretty, but a coyote will try to survive. "Ethics" don't play a roll in how a coyote survives and to try to say that any animal doesn't deserve an ethical kill is pretty crappy. I understand that some folks may take a more iffy shot on a coyote and not feel as bad if it ends up being a bad shot. I certainly hope anyone that does that would dispatch the animal as quickly as possible after such a shot though.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 16, 2017, 09:14:12 AM
Post by: JakeLand on November 16, 2017, 09:29:00 AM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 16, 2017, 08:38:24 PM
Coyotes aren't ethical.....
That's one of the most idiotic things I've read in a while. They are a predator, no different than a cougar or other predators. The fact that so many obviously don't give a darn about a fast, ethical kill with regard to animals like coyotes is just disgusting and doesn't speak well of our sport. I have a relative that is a big cattle rancher. He has seen coyotes eating half born calves as the cow giving birth helplessly freaks out. It's nature at work. It's not always pretty, but a coyote will try to survive. "Ethics" don't play a roll in how a coyote survives and to try to say that any animal doesn't deserve an ethical kill is pretty crappy. I understand that some folks may take a more iffy shot on a coyote and not feel as bad if it ends up being a bad shot. I certainly hope anyone that does that would dispatch the animal as quickly as possible after such a shot though.
Did I hurt your liberal view on an ethical coyote ? Too me, coyotes are worthless vermin that need to be shot and killed, period. I lived in eastern Washington for nearly 17 years and have seen my fair share of what coyotes do to any and all animals. You're preaching' to the wrong guy. I hate coyotes....Coyotes aren't ethical.
Post by: Romulus1297 on November 16, 2017, 10:22:44 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 17, 2017, 05:35:14 AM
Post by: Cougartail on November 17, 2017, 03:42:12 PM
Coyotes aren't ethical.....
The fact that so many obviously don't give a darn about a fast, ethical kill with regard to animals like coyotes is just disgusting and doesn't speak well of our sport.
Who said coyote hunting is a sport? It's like spraying for bugs to me.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 17, 2017, 04:53:48 PM
Coyotes aren't ethical.....
The fact that so many obviously don't give a darn about a fast, ethical kill with regard to animals like coyotes is just disgusting and doesn't speak well of our sport.
Who said coyote hunting is a sport? It's like spraying for bugs to me.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Post by: Romulus1297 on November 17, 2017, 04:55:22 PM
Post by: drysideshooter on November 20, 2017, 08:39:35 AM
Coyotes aren't ethical.....
That's one of the most idiotic things I've read in a while. They are a predator, no different than a cougar or other predators. The fact that so many obviously don't give a darn about a fast, ethical kill with regard to animals like coyotes is just disgusting and doesn't speak well of our sport. I have a relative that is a big cattle rancher. He has seen coyotes eating half born calves as the cow giving birth helplessly freaks out. It's nature at work. It's not always pretty, but a coyote will try to survive. "Ethics" don't play a roll in how a coyote survives and to try to say that any animal doesn't deserve an ethical kill is pretty crappy. I understand that some folks may take a more iffy shot on a coyote and not feel as bad if it ends up being a bad shot. I certainly hope anyone that does that would dispatch the animal as quickly as possible after such a shot though.
Did I hurt your liberal view on an ethical coyote ? Too me, coyotes are worthless vermin that need to be shot and killed, period. I lived in eastern Washington for nearly 17 years and have seen my fair share of what coyotes do to any and all animals. You're preaching' to the wrong guy. I hate coyotes....Coyotes aren't ethical.
Thinking there is anything liberal about me is laughable. I STILL live in eastern WA and shoot coyotes on a regular basis. I'm the CEO of a decent sized company, a self made multi-millionaire and probably one of the most conservative people you could ever meet. I just happen to believe that if you are hunting anything, whether you call it a sport or vermin control, every animal deserves as fast and ethical of a kill as you can deliver. I can guarantee the next time the bunny huggers want to wage a campaign you will see copies of posts from forums like this where "hunters" are bragging about how they like to "whack em and stack em" and not worry about clean, ethical kills.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 20, 2017, 08:49:01 AM
Post by: lokidog on November 20, 2017, 09:19:09 AM
Your post is inappropriate. If you can't have a conversation with other hunters without attacking them, then don't post. Also your language is inappropriate.
I do not see any problems with language here, but am more tolerant than some other moderators. IMO saying something is idiotic is not a personal attack. I might be overruled.
However, I actually agree with dryside that any animal we kill deserves a quick death, animals don't have a choice to follow human "ethics", we do. When I squish a spider, I don't pull its legs off first.... This may cloud my judgement here.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 20, 2017, 09:23:01 AM
Post by: 2MANY on November 20, 2017, 09:30:52 AM
Post by: lokidog on November 20, 2017, 09:33:58 AM
He changed his post.
I've seen that since posting, the moderator report was not open when I looked. I'm always a little behind on these. ;)
Did Charles Manson deserve an ethical death?
We should always strive to do the "right" thing, some situations might not matter so much if we don't get it done..... :rolleyes:
Post by: bracer40 on November 20, 2017, 09:44:47 AM
Found this interview with him in a more easily consumed media...
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/08/coyote-america-dan-flores-history-science/
Post by: boneaddict on November 20, 2017, 09:59:40 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 20, 2017, 10:02:48 AM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 20, 2017, 10:57:25 AM
What a person does for a living means zilch to me. Having lots of money means zilch to me. Being a CEO means zilch to me. I guess that means you know more, than most on this site, because of your statement. Good Luck on that one.
Post by: boneaddict on November 20, 2017, 11:25:24 AM
What about that coyote you dispatched a few years back with your bow, wasn't that a 1 shot kill?Oh ya, 99% are. I just know I’d take a shot on a yote I wouldn’t on a deer or other big game species. Basically I’m protecting my own....
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 20, 2017, 11:26:57 AM
Post by: Cougartail on November 20, 2017, 01:22:04 PM
Post by: JDHasty on November 20, 2017, 01:48:27 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 20, 2017, 03:34:13 PM
Post by: Gringo31 on November 21, 2017, 09:40:46 AM
My recommendation would be to have folks quit arguing a point that is best left agreeing to disagree.