Post by: TheSennett on November 28, 2017, 09:23:02 AM
Also, if anyone is out hunting in the next few weeks, and doesn't mind me tagging along to watch your dog(s) work, I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks.
Post by: Henrydog on November 28, 2017, 09:49:05 AM
Post by: Wingin it on November 28, 2017, 07:04:22 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2017, 07:13:46 PM
For your first gun dog I recommend you find a reputable kennel with reputable trainers and one that's close by, because you'll be driving there....a lot.
Post by: GoBeavs85 on November 28, 2017, 08:31:32 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: kselkhunter on November 28, 2017, 08:41:52 PM
You'd be better off picking a trainer, who's usually associated with a kennel, which is usually associated with a breed.
For your first gun dog I recommend you find a reputable kennel with reputable trainers and one that's close by, because you'll be driving there....a lot.
Outstanding advice right there.
Post by: Forks on November 29, 2017, 05:18:36 AM
Post by: T-Bone on November 29, 2017, 07:25:06 AM
Post by: TheSennett on November 29, 2017, 08:57:58 AM
You'd be better off picking a trainer, who's usually associated with a kennel, which is usually associated with a breed.
For your first gun dog I recommend you find a reputable kennel with reputable trainers and one that's close by, because you'll be driving there....a lot.
I like this idea. Has anyone had a particularly good or bad experience with a kennel? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to publicly broadcast this information.
Post by: AspenBud on November 29, 2017, 10:49:14 AM
I'm looking at getting my first gun dog and would appreciate any advice from owners of the following breeds: (1) English setter; (2) Brittany; (3) Irish red & white setter; and, (4) English springer spaniel. I'm only planning on hunting upland, no waterfowl.
Also, if anyone is out hunting in the next few weeks, and doesn't mind me tagging along to watch your dog(s) work, I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks.
If you are looking at English setters you should look at English Pointers as well. They do the same job, they are handled in the same competitions, etc.
Buy a started dog. Often times field trailers will hang onto a batch of pups to see how they develop and cut (as in sell) the ones that don't make the grade. Often those dogs are more than enough for the average hunter and they, the breeder, can make a better match between dog and future owner with such dogs since they aren't as much of a shot in the dark as an 8 week old pup.
Don't be afraid to fly a dog in from a breeder in another state. Just make sure the breeder is reputable.
Post by: 2MANY on November 29, 2017, 10:52:06 AM
I was thinking the same thing.
Both dog and owner learning together is a recipe for disaster.
Especially in the pointing breeds.
Post by: AspenBud on November 29, 2017, 10:58:26 AM
"Buy a started dog. Often times field trailers will hang onto a batch of pups to see how they develop and cut (as in sell) the ones that don't make the grade. Often those dogs are more than enough for the average hunter and they, the breeder, can make a better match between dog and future owner with such dogs since they aren't as much of a shot in the dark as an 8 week old pup."
I was thinking the same thing.
Both dog and owner learning together is a recipe for disaster.
Especially in the pointing breeds.
I've gone through four bird dogs now and I've attempted to train them all with varying levels of success. The problem I see is training takes a lot of time to be effective and you have to have land and birds. A started dog should have some birds shot over it and have some rudimentary idea of what the job is about. You also bypass some of the more annoying phases of puppyhood with one.
My next dog will most likely be started to one degree or another.
Post by: AspenBud on November 29, 2017, 11:01:49 AM
Post by: Pegasus on November 29, 2017, 11:04:53 AM
Post by: TheSennett on November 29, 2017, 01:25:13 PM
If you want primarily a hunting dog buy one that has been professionally started. If you want a family dog that also hunts buy a pup. Family dogs need conditioning to people and living indoors. Buying a pup allows for important social training with human interaction and also other dog interaction. A starter dog will rarely become your best friend but he will probably be a better hunter. Make sure you are familiar with a breed's traits such as being high-strung, aggressive, etc. Choose wisely because they will be around for the next 8 to 15 years.
I'm looking for a 50% family / 50% hunting dog. Based on what everyone is saying, I think I might actually be looking for a unicorn... I grew up with purebred GSDs so I'm relatively competent w/ training. However, I've never trained a dog for hunting and don't have much hunting experience myself (lived in CT before moving out here). I'm going to start by getting in touch with breeders and seeing where that takes me.
I appreciate the insight from everyone. Lots to consider!
Post by: kselkhunter on November 29, 2017, 02:12:07 PM
I'm already in discussions with their trainer/breeders to plan for their replacements in the next year or so. I'd like to have the two new ones here while I still have my current dogs.
Post by: 2MANY on November 29, 2017, 02:41:51 PM
Have the ability to acquire training birds at will.
I always raised my own by the hundred.
My dogs liked birds.
My friends dogs were good at fetching tennis balls.
Post by: tlbradford on November 29, 2017, 09:41:38 PM
Post by: pens fan on November 30, 2017, 09:54:30 AM
Post by: shootem on November 30, 2017, 07:55:47 PM
Post by: jagermiester on December 01, 2017, 08:12:18 AM
I know its not on your list but my brother just put money down on a Braque Francias because the breed is supposed to be an awesome dog at home.
I've always been a lab guy but now I have a GWP I think he may be the best house pet I've ever had. But that may be an anomaly.
Post by: Fishnfowler on December 01, 2017, 11:03:47 AM
To the OP, why no love for the short hairs and wire hairs? I've had some long hair dogs and find the weeds of the west to be devastating on their coats. I would get a short-hair just to avoid spending time with the coat after an outing. If I spend time with my dog, I want it to be hunting or training, not endlessly grooming.
I agree with 2Many. I would start with a puppy, have it be a family dog, but give it tons of bird time as a puppy.
Of the dogs listed, I'd get the brit.
Post by: TheSennett on December 01, 2017, 01:45:03 PM
I've got an English Pointer and he is completely different at home. The dude is a lover. Gentle, calm, almost sedated. Outside he is a quivering mess of running and sniffing. YMMV. I've got a Chesapeake also that points, runs well, is great with family/friends, and totally gets the game. The dog learns every lesson with 1-2 attempts at teaching it. I swear she knows the birds I'm going to hunt by which gun and vest I grab. This dog starts following me around in August giving me the eyeball. She'll sit by the gun safe, look at it, look at me, then go point at the tote with hunting gear and look at me again.
To the OP, why no love for the short hairs and wire hairs? I've had some long hair dogs and find the weeds of the west to be devastating on their coats. I would get a short-hair just to avoid spending time with the coat after an outing. If I spend time with my dog, I want it to be hunting or training, not endlessly grooming.
I agree with 2Many. I would start with a puppy, have it be a family dog, but give it tons of bird time as a puppy.
Of the dogs listed, I'd get the brit.
I'm shying away from GWP and GSP due to what I've heard about their prey drive & the wife's cat (that she may like more than me). Viszla sounded like a potential at first, but I'm reading that the cold isn't their friend.
Chesapeake was on my original list, but I haven't chatted with anyone who owns retrievers --- Golden, Labrador, or Chesapeake --- and primarily hunts upland. I guess this would be a good place to start. Any downsides of retrievers for a new bird hunter that would make it a poor choice as a first gun dog?
Also, is the breeder for your Chesapeake local?
Post by: kselkhunter on December 01, 2017, 02:17:30 PM
I run both a lab and a GSP for upland and waterfowl. Both love hunting both, but each have their strengths. Both very good breeds as house dogs and with kids. I didn't get my GSP as a puppy so don't know if exposing him to cat as a pup would have helped.
Good luck with your search.
Post by: Forks on December 01, 2017, 03:32:28 PM
I don't know Fishnfowler but know that he harvests many more than most with his Chessie and you be wise to chat with 2Many about Chessies if they are a consideration. These two members have a lifetime of info if you ask the right questions. Good luck with your search.I've got an English Pointer and he is completely different at home. The dude is a lover. Gentle, calm, almost sedated. Outside he is a quivering mess of running and sniffing. YMMV. I've got a Chesapeake also that points, runs well, is great with family/friends, and totally gets the game. The dog learns every lesson with 1-2 attempts at teaching it. I swear she knows the birds I'm going to hunt by which gun and vest I grab. This dog starts following me around in August giving me the eyeball. She'll sit by the gun safe, look at it, look at me, then go point at the tote with hunting gear and look at me again.
To the OP, why no love for the short hairs and wire hairs? I've had some long hair dogs and find the weeds of the west to be devastating on their coats. I would get a short-hair just to avoid spending time with the coat after an outing. If I spend time with my dog, I want it to be hunting or training, not endlessly grooming.
I agree with 2Many. I would start with a puppy, have it be a family dog, but give it tons of bird time as a puppy.
Of the dogs listed, I'd get the brit.
I'm shying away from GWP and GSP due to what I've heard about their prey drive & the wife's cat (that she may like more than me). Viszla sounded like a potential at first, but I'm reading that the cold isn't their friend.
Chesapeake was on my original list, but I haven't chatted with anyone who owns retrievers --- Golden, Labrador, or Chesapeake --- and primarily hunts upland. I guess this would be a good place to start. Any downsides of retrievers for a new bird hunter that would make it a poor choice as a first gun dog?
Also, is the breeder for your Chesapeake local?
Post by: jagermiester on December 01, 2017, 03:36:18 PM
Truth is most of the time if the cat is worth owning the dog is the one you gotta worry about.
I have hunted behind more great labs than any other breed. Its like a super reliable car that you love to own. If you are new to bird hunting this is probably the dog you want to get. Train him or her to mind and you will have an awesome companion in the field.
Now if you want to drive a Ferrari get yourself a pointer just understand there is a lot more you need to do to train and to own a dog like that.
Now that I've owned a Ferrari (GWP) Ill never go back.
Post by: tlbradford on December 01, 2017, 10:23:12 PM
Post by: jagermiester on December 02, 2017, 08:09:35 AM
Good job for being a good dog owner before you even own a dog :tup:
Post by: pens fan on December 07, 2017, 11:21:14 PM
Or be outstanding.
Post by: SpringerFan on December 08, 2017, 04:53:46 PM
Second is a female field bred ESS. Lots of drive. Lots of love. Very loyal. Smart.
So, if you want a dog that is a great family dog as well I vote ESS. But do your research. That was the fun part. And I trained with some great teachers on Fort Lewis. WWESSC. The club dynamics have changed since I was part of them. But I learned a lot!
Have fun with the process!
Post by: jimmy z on December 19, 2017, 07:44:16 PM
Post by: jetjockey on December 21, 2017, 05:53:19 AM
If you want primarily a hunting dog buy one that has been professionally started. If you want a family dog that also hunts buy a pup. Family dogs need conditioning to people and living indoors. Buying a pup allows for important social training with human interaction and also other dog interaction. A starter dog will rarely become your best friend but he will probably be a better hunter. Make sure you are familiar with a breed's traits such as being high-strung, aggressive, etc. Choose wisely because they will be around for the next 8 to 15 years.
I'm looking for a 50% family / 50% hunting dog. Based on what everyone is saying, I think I might actually be looking for a unicorn... I grew up with purebred GSDs so I'm relatively competent w/ training. However, I've never trained a dog for hunting and don't have much hunting experience myself (lived in CT before moving out here). I'm going to start by getting in touch with breeders and seeing where that takes me.
I appreciate the insight from everyone. Lots to consider!
Why do you say that? It should be very easy to find what your looking for. Here’s a picture of the winningest 1hr female in Brittany history, hangin out with her new buddy. Does she look like a unicorn?
Post by: fethrduster on December 21, 2017, 09:26:50 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Mhx8x5d.jpg)
Post by: constructeur on December 21, 2017, 01:50:36 PM
Post by: jetjockey on December 21, 2017, 03:57:54 PM
Post by: constructeur on December 25, 2017, 10:10:02 PM
...kind of like how you'd never admit those runts you run are hard as hell to see in any wild/tall cover.
Deception.
Post by: jetjockey on December 26, 2017, 04:20:33 AM
No, it's because they are deliberately deceptive, and don't want to admit that out of all the dogs in pointerdom they are stuck feeding a dog that does 2/3 of it's job for the next decade plus.
...kind of like how you'd never admit those runts you run are hard as hell to see in any wild/tall cover.
Deception.
You must have the wrong guy, because I’ve never said my dogs are easy to see. It’s just the opposite especially in trials. But it’s not the size, it’s the color! I talk about how hard they are to see all the time. EVERYONE DOES, and it’s a running joke. But when hunting, why do I need to see my runts? That’s what GPS was created for! I assure you I kill a hell of a lot more birds knowing exactly where my runts are on GPS and not having to hack at them, then guys like you who scream the birds out of the country while needing to hack at your dog to know where they are...... Oh and BTW, you probably don’t ever want to put your dog on the ground against my runts. At 9 1/2, my oldest still gets better as the hour progresses.
As far as retrieving, most people who own setters and Pointers want a dog to hunt, find,and point birds, that’s it. Retrieving and flushing duties are often left to the cockers and Springers who dont have the motors to keep up with Setters and Pointers. But, if you do want an ES or EP to retrieve, it’s not really rocket science. You just work on a trained retrieve or FF them, like they do every decent lab out there. Go to any NSTRA trial out there, and you will see boat loads of ES’s and EP’s that retrieve to hand. Retrieve can easily be trained, huge motors with cannons for noses is something that’s bred. I’ll take the things that have to be bred, all day every day, over something that can be trained into to any dog.
Post by: addicted2hunting on December 26, 2017, 09:40:20 AM
No, it's because they are deliberately deceptive, and don't want to admit that out of all the dogs in pointerdom they are stuck feeding a dog that does 2/3 of it's job for the next decade plus.
...kind of like how you'd never admit those runts you run are hard as hell to see in any wild/tall cover.
Deception.
You must have the wrong guy, because I’ve never said my dogs are easy to see. It’s just the opposite especially in trials. But it’s not the size, it’s the color! I talk about how hard they are to see all the time. EVERYONE DOES, and it’s a running joke. But when hunting, why do I need to see my runts? That’s what GPS was created for! I assure you I kill a hell of a lot more birds knowing exactly where my runts are on GPS and not having to hack at them, then guys like you who scream the birds out of the country while needing to hack at your dog to know where they are...... Oh and BTW, you probably don’t ever want to put your dog on the ground against my runts. At 9 1/2, my oldest still gets better as the hour progresses.
As far as retrieving, most people who own setters and Pointers want a dog to hunt, find,and point birds, that’s it. Retrieving and flushing duties are often left to the cockers and Springers who dont have the motors to keep up with Setters and Pointers. But, if you do want an ES or EP to retrieve, it’s not really rocket science. You just work on a trained retrieve or FF them, like they do every decent lab out there. Go to any NSTRA trial out there, and you will see boat loads of ES’s and EP’s that retrieve to hand. Retrieve can easily be trained, huge motors with cannons for noses is something that’s bred. I’ll take the things that have to be bred, all day every day, over something that can be trained into to any dog.
I'd be careful about asking to run against his shorthair....
Post by: addicted2hunting on December 26, 2017, 09:42:33 AM
Post by: jetjockey on December 26, 2017, 09:58:19 AM
No, it's because they are deliberately deceptive, and don't want to admit that out of all the dogs in pointerdom they are stuck feeding a dog that does 2/3 of it's job for the next decade plus.
...kind of like how you'd never admit those runts you run are hard as hell to see in any wild/tall cover.
Deception.
You must have the wrong guy, because I’ve never said my dogs are easy to see. It’s just the opposite especially in trials. But it’s not the size, it’s the color! I talk about how hard they are to see all the time. EVERYONE DOES, and it’s a running joke. But when hunting, why do I need to see my runts? That’s what GPS was created for! I assure you I kill a hell of a lot more birds knowing exactly where my runts are on GPS and not having to hack at them, then guys like you who scream the birds out of the country while needing to hack at your dog to know where they are...... Oh and BTW, you probably don’t ever want to put your dog on the ground against my runts. At 9 1/2, my oldest still gets better as the hour progresses.
As far as retrieving, most people who own setters and Pointers want a dog to hunt, find,and point birds, that’s it. Retrieving and flushing duties are often left to the cockers and Springers who dont have the motors to keep up with Setters and Pointers. But, if you do want an ES or EP to retrieve, it’s not really rocket science. You just work on a trained retrieve or FF them, like they do every decent lab out there. Go to any NSTRA trial out there, and you will see boat loads of ES’s and EP’s that retrieve to hand. Retrieve can easily be trained, huge motors with cannons for noses is something that’s bred. I’ll take the things that have to be bred, all day every day, over something that can be trained into to any dog.
I'd be careful about asking to run against his shorthair....
Why? I’ve run against many of the best shorthairs in the country, and several of their NFC’s. I’ve also had the enjoyment of watching several GSP Pros at summer camp. I’ve beat both, and lost to both, and I knew exactly why every time.
Post by: addicted2hunting on December 26, 2017, 10:14:07 AM
Post by: jetjockey on December 26, 2017, 10:17:39 AM
Because you will be humbled...
Maybe. But I’ve run against some of the best GSP’s in the country, including NFC’s. I know exactly what to expect. Can you say the same?
Post by: addicted2hunting on December 26, 2017, 10:22:13 AM
Post by: jetjockey on December 26, 2017, 10:41:10 AM
Post by: addicted2hunting on December 26, 2017, 12:07:43 PM
Post by: jetjockey on December 26, 2017, 02:24:36 PM
This one is balls out for multiple days non stop... doesn't get tired. It's rough trying to even keep up with the dog. The dog also damn near swam to anacortes from bayview chasing a raft of ducks.
Balls out until you put a GPS on it. You win though. Obviously we are talking about a GSP that is far superior to the best GSP’s in the country.
Post by: jagermiester on December 26, 2017, 03:42:18 PM
Done?
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: addicted2hunting on December 26, 2017, 05:09:11 PM
Post by: merkelman on December 26, 2017, 06:16:40 PM
Yes and No! The best GSP’s in the country often slow in an all out hour. Hunting is a paced sport, while 1hr trialing is balls to the walls, lay it all on the line or get picked up sport. I’ve seen dogs that could “hunt all day”, and I wouldn’t own one. Why? Because there’s not a dog in the country that can hunt all day at the pace that I want. They ALL get tired!!!I get 6.5-7 hours out of my GSP. HE paces himself after the first few hours, then get’s methodical. We also hunt primarily Chukar and there is no need for a fast paced dog hunting wild Chukar. I am more concerned about his pads over that time. Most real Chukar dogs will figure out the pace thing after a few good years on the hill.
Post by: jetjockey on December 26, 2017, 07:00:07 PM
Post by: merkelman on December 26, 2017, 07:15:44 PM
the stamina card. Hunting flat terrain also makes a huge difference as I am sure you would agree. Field trial dogs are obviously a different breed and from what I have seen could not hack a full 6-8 hour hunt at the same speed. One thing is for certain, with out boots their pads will be shot for the next day.
Post by: jetjockey on December 26, 2017, 07:35:24 PM
The reason I ask about a GPS, is because GPS’s become truth tellers. Kind of like the invention of laser range finders when big game hunting. It’s amazing how those 500 yard shots quickly become 250-300 yard shots. The same thing happens with those huge running dogs that range out to 600-800 yards. Put a GPS on the dogs and suddenly they become 250-350 yard dogs. When someone tells me their dog can go balls to the walls all day, I always ask what their GPS says. Because suddenly “balls to the wall” becomes a slow trot.
Post by: merkelman on December 26, 2017, 07:45:48 PM
Post by: addicted2hunting on December 26, 2017, 08:36:48 PM
Post by: jetjockey on December 26, 2017, 09:04:52 PM
Well when I look at my Gps most chukar hunts I personally cover close to 15 miles. The dogs easily by common sense cover atleast 20. That's in basalt cliffs and lots of elevation gain and loss. Like merkelman said, you better boot your dog cause the pads will be hamburger after day 1. From frozen ground with snow to blistering hot days. Much different than a field trial.
Not really much different, especially since many of the Western trial grounds are in chucker country. But that’s neither here nore there..... So again I ask, what is a “field trial” dog? I’ve foot hunted over All Age National Champions that all get guided over. Are those “field trial” dogs or hunting dogs? How does hunting on frozen ground and snow to blistering hot days differ from trialing in those exact same conditions? Btw. Booting dogs in trials is pretty common. But toughening up dogs pads is even more common yet, especially when running on the grounds that have shale and cactus.
Post by: jagermiester on December 27, 2017, 03:36:47 PM
I'm looking at getting my first gun dog and would appreciate any advice from owners of the following breeds: (1) English setter; (2) Brittany; (3) Irish red & white setter; and, (4) English springer spaniel. I'm only planning on hunting upland, no waterfowl.
Also, if anyone is out hunting in the next few weeks, and doesn't mind me tagging along to watch your dog(s) work, I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks.
;)