Post by: buckcanyonlodge on January 05, 2018, 07:59:15 AM
Post by: Doublelunger on January 05, 2018, 08:07:50 AM
Post by: Doublelunger on January 05, 2018, 08:09:03 AM
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on January 05, 2018, 08:13:32 AM
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 05, 2018, 08:14:18 AM
It's not the size of the dog in the fight. :IBCOOL:
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 05, 2018, 12:39:36 PM
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on January 05, 2018, 12:43:55 PM
This would be very consistent with elk and deer literature showing that at least some females will refuse to breed with yearling males through two estrus cycles before standing for a yearling male in the third and last. They are hardwired to seek males with larger antlers.
I watched an even smaller 2 point breeding at least four does during the first estrus cycle in early Nov.in my back yard. The only bigger buck disappeared from the herd on opening day in Oct.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 05, 2018, 01:32:25 PM
Yes, ecologically it is a tradeoff. Drop your fawns with the majority and have the greatest chance of swamping the predators and have your offspring survive, or hold out for a fitter breeder and drop fawns late when there are relatively few newborns and potential for predation is increased.This would be very consistent with elk and deer literature showing that at least some females will refuse to breed with yearling males through two estrus cycles before standing for a yearling male in the third and last. They are hardwired to seek males with larger antlers.
I watched an even smaller 2 point breeding at least four does during the first estrus cycle in early Nov.in my back yard. The only bigger buck disappeared from the herd on opening day in Oct.
Post by: Fishmaker57 on January 05, 2018, 01:33:09 PM
:bash: :bdid:
Post by: hunter399 on January 05, 2018, 02:01:12 PM
Another example of the fine Mule Deer management Plan from WDFW. Kill all the big mature bucks so the two points can breed all the does, perpetuating the cycle of weaker herds, and genetically eliminating bucks with eye guards!I have said so many times on here that I wish it was 4pt min for mule deer , and everybody bashes me saying ,it's not gonna help the herd.Glad to see somebody gets it. :tup:
:bash: :bdid:
I can't help but think he is gonna have one horn soon and breeding. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: bigmacc on January 05, 2018, 02:12:01 PM
Another example of the fine Mule Deer management Plan from WDFW. Kill all the big mature bucks so the two points can breed all the does, perpetuating the cycle of weaker herds, and genetically eliminating bucks with eye guards!I have said so many times on here that I wish it was 4pt min for mule deer , and everybody bashes me saying ,it's not gonna help the herd.Glad to see somebody gets it. :tup:
:bash: :bdid:
I can't help but think he is gonna have one horn soon and breeding. :chuckle: :chuckle:
This is not a "bash" because I kind of agree and disagree with both of you, yes theres a lot of big, old 2,s running around(at least in the Methow) and I,m sure they are doing some breeding but I still think the 3point rule is the way to go, what needs to be done in some muley areas is nock off the quality late hunts for awhile, give the big fellas(whats left of them) a break....just my :twocents:
Post by: hunter399 on January 05, 2018, 02:22:46 PM
Another example of the fine Mule Deer management Plan from WDFW. Kill all the big mature bucks so the two points can breed all the does, perpetuating the cycle of weaker herds, and genetically eliminating bucks with eye guards!I have said so many times on here that I wish it was 4pt min for mule deer , and everybody bashes me saying ,it's not gonna help the herd.Glad to see somebody gets it. :tup:
:bash: :bdid:
I can't help but think he is gonna have one horn soon and breeding. :chuckle: :chuckle:
This is not a "bash" because I kind of agree and disagree with both of you, yes theres a lot of big, old 2,s running around(at least in the Methow) and I,m sure they are doing some breeding but I still think the 3point rule is the way to go, what needs to be done in some muley areas is nock off the quality late hunts for awhile, give the big fellas(whats left of them) a break....just my :twocents:
In five years down the road we can all have a quality mule deer hunt :twocents:
Post by: Brute on January 05, 2018, 02:32:44 PM
Wouldn't believe it if I did not see it. The biggest buck in the local herd -a small 2x2-- was chasing and checking all the does and following a certain doe . She would stop every so often and squat and pee. He would check it out and keep right on her tail. When one of the big whitetail bucks came in to feed , the mulie cut him off and squared off with him. I thought " you stupid mulie he is going to kick your arse" . Sure enough they butted heads and the white tail pushed the much small mulie into a snow covered brush and the mulie went down on all fours. When the big whitetail let up the mulie got to his feet and CHASED the big white tail buck out of the area. Unbelievable. The 2 point mulie was still after the same doe yesterday. Here are pics of the rutting mulie (2 pics )and the whitetail he chased away.
That's interesting.
Yesterday I went out looking for some Columbian Whitetails towards Astoria.
One of them had already shed it's antlers.
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on January 05, 2018, 03:04:20 PM
Wouldn't believe it if I did not see it. The biggest buck in the local herd -a small 2x2-- was chasing and checking all the does and following a certain doe . She would stop every so often and squat and pee. He would check it out and keep right on her tail. When one of the big whitetail bucks came in to feed , the mulie cut him off and squared off with him. I thought " you stupid mulie he is going to kick your arse" . Sure enough they butted heads and the white tail pushed the much small mulie into a snow covered brush and the mulie went down on all fours. When the big whitetail let up the mulie got to his feet and CHASED the big white tail buck out of the area. Unbelievable. The 2 point mulie was still after the same doe yesterday. Here are pics of the rutting mulie (2 pics )and the whitetail he chased away.
That's interesting.
Yesterday I went out looking for some Columbian Whitetails towards Astoria.
One of them had already shed it's antlers.
Two other large bucks and one small buck ( whitetail ) have shed already. The earliest I have seen a shed is Dec. 10th!! I got the shed and a got a pic of the buck the next day with one antler. The mulies around here usually shed in late Feb. to mid-March.
Post by: fishnfur on January 06, 2018, 12:23:03 AM
Another example of the fine Mule Deer management Plan from WDFW. Kill all the big mature bucks so the two points can breed all the does, perpetuating the cycle of weaker herds, and genetically eliminating bucks with eye guards!
:bash: :bdid:
I'm not sure the buck in question is one of genetically "inferior" two-point. The one I'm looking at in the photo is likely a yearling. He might be a massive four-point in three or four years. If that was the case, then there's no harm at all in him breeding a doe when he just a young buck. The genetics are still there.
In the case of those bucks which we (silly) humans consider genetically inferior because they don't carry massive racks, the evolution of the species has kept the genetic trait for two-point racks well represented in the deer population as a whole, and not just since the introduction of point-based hunting restrictions. Certainly, once a buck's body mass and overall rack size attain enough size, be it in either a two-point or four-point version, the animal becomes big enough to kick most smaller buck's butts and thus satisfy a doe's requirements for a dominant buck to breed her. I doubt a doe cares too much if the buck is missing a point here or there if he's a massive mature stud. :twocents:
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on January 06, 2018, 08:05:46 AM
Another example of the fine Mule Deer management Plan from WDFW. Kill all the big mature bucks so the two points can breed all the does, perpetuating the cycle of weaker herds, and genetically eliminating bucks with eye guards!
:bash: :bdid:
I'm not sure the buck in question is one of genetically "inferior" two-point. The one I'm looking at in the photo is likely a yearling. He might be a massive four-point in three or four years. If that was the case, then there's no harm at all in him breeding a doe when he just a young buck. The genetics are still there.
In the case of those bucks which we (silly) humans consider genetically inferior because they don't carry massive racks, the evolution of the species has kept the genetic trait for two-point racks well represented in the deer population as a whole, and not just since the introduction of point-based hunting restrictions. Certainly, once a buck's body mass and overall rack size attain enough size, be it in either a two-point or four-point version, the animal becomes big enough to kick most smaller buck's butts and thus satisfy a doe's requirements for a dominant buck to breed her. I doubt a doe cares too much if the buck is missing a point here or there if he's a massive mature stud. :twocents:
The buck is just a yearling --his first set of antlers. Here is a pic of his likely father. He was the dominant buck in the local herd for two years until he disappeared in April 2017. Probably a cougar took him. The little buck has his genetics.
Post by: hunter399 on January 06, 2018, 08:33:51 AM
Another example of the fine Mule Deer management Plan from WDFW. Kill all the big mature bucks so the two points can breed all the does, perpetuating the cycle of weaker herds, and genetically eliminating bucks with eye guards!
:bash: :bdid:
I'm not sure the buck in question is one of genetically "inferior" two-point. The one I'm looking at in the photo is likely a yearling. He might be a massive four-point in three or four years. If that was the case, then there's no harm at all in him breeding a doe when he just a young buck. The genetics are still there.
In the case of those bucks which we (silly) humans consider genetically inferior because they don't carry massive racks, the evolution of the species has kept the genetic trait for two-point racks well represented in the deer population as a whole, and not just since the introduction of point-based hunting restrictions. Certainly, once a buck's body mass and overall rack size attain enough size, be it in either a two-point or four-point version, the animal becomes big enough to kick most smaller buck's butts and thus satisfy a doe's requirements for a dominant buck to breed her. I doubt a doe cares too much if the buck is missing a point here or there if he's a massive mature stud. :twocents:
Don't wanna be disrespectful, but if does in January still breeding ,does not tell you the buck:doe ratio is off then nothing will. :twocents:
Not leaving enough surplus animals,let's say buck gets hit by car,fawn born late doesn't make next winter ,genetics gone.
It's a good thing that they have a safe place to winter.
Post by: h20hunter on January 06, 2018, 08:59:06 AM
Post by: fishnfur on January 06, 2018, 11:35:42 AM
Another example of the fine Mule Deer management Plan from WDFW. Kill all the big mature bucks so the two points can breed all the does, perpetuating the cycle of weaker herds, and genetically eliminating bucks with eye guards!
:bash: :bdid:
I'm not sure the buck in question is one of genetically "inferior" two-point. The one I'm looking at in the photo is likely a yearling. He might be a massive four-point in three or four years. If that was the case, then there's no harm at all in him breeding a doe when he just a young buck. The genetics are still there.
In the case of those bucks which we (silly) humans consider genetically inferior because they don't carry massive racks, the evolution of the species has kept the genetic trait for two-point racks well represented in the deer population as a whole, and not just since the introduction of point-based hunting restrictions. Certainly, once a buck's body mass and overall rack size attain enough size, be it in either a two-point or four-point version, the animal becomes big enough to kick most smaller buck's butts and thus satisfy a doe's requirements for a dominant buck to breed her. I doubt a doe cares too much if the buck is missing a point here or there if he's a massive mature stud. :twocents:
Don't wanna be disrespectful, but if does in January still breeding ,does not tell you the buck:doe ratio is off then nothing will. :twocents:
Possibly true. It may also be that the doe in question has physiologic issues getting and staying pregnant - just like in the rest of the mammalian world, not all females of any species get pregnant the first time they are mated. Some may never carry. A doe will continue to go through estrus cycles until they conceive, or till some magic time when there are no longer bucks available to mate them - sometimes into March.
Post by: hunter399 on January 06, 2018, 05:09:20 PM
Another example of the fine Mule Deer management Plan from WDFW. Kill all the big mature bucks so the two points can breed all the does, perpetuating the cycle of weaker herds, and genetically eliminating bucks with eye guards!
:bash: :bdid:
I'm not sure the buck in question is one of genetically "inferior" two-point. The one I'm looking at in the photo is likely a yearling. He might be a massive four-point in three or four years. If that was the case, then there's no harm at all in him breeding a doe when he just a young buck. The genetics are still there.
In the case of those bucks which we (silly) humans consider genetically inferior because they don't carry massive racks, the evolution of the species has kept the genetic trait for two-point racks well represented in the deer population as a whole, and not just since the introduction of point-based hunting restrictions. Certainly, once a buck's body mass and overall rack size attain enough size, be it in either a two-point or four-point version, the animal becomes big enough to kick most smaller buck's butts and thus satisfy a doe's requirements for a dominant buck to breed her. I doubt a doe cares too much if the buck is missing a point here or there if he's a massive mature stud. :twocents:
Don't wanna be disrespectful, but if does in January still breeding ,does not tell you the buck:doe ratio is off then nothing will. :twocents:
Possibly true. It may also be that the doe in question has physiologic issues getting and staying pregnant - just like in the rest of the mammalian world, not all females of any species get pregnant the first time they are mated. Some may never carry. A doe will continue to go through estrus cycles until they conceive, or till some magic time when there are no longer bucks available to mate them - sometimes into March.
I will just agree, I don't wanna drag this topic down the mule deer rabbit hole anymore,the pics are very cool of the op to post :tup:,Hope these young mule deer can carry on the herd of mule deer. :twocents:
Post by: dvolmer on January 06, 2018, 05:56:54 PM