Post by: Bob70 on January 17, 2018, 12:27:44 PM
Post by: Seahawk12 on January 17, 2018, 12:42:52 PM
The issue is that they are living in a rain forest with an abundance of food to choose from.
Typical whitetail plots tend to be less productive in blacktail country.
I don't want to discourage you from trying it out, but I would suggest starting small and to avoid the temptation to go check it too often.
Also, use the search function to look for some more threads regarding this question. I seem to remember reading a few that had some useful tips.
Best of luck.
Post by: headshot5 on January 17, 2018, 12:48:46 PM
Quote
Just wondering if anyone has had success with planting food plots for blacktail, if so what was the best crop? I was thinking about clover & oats.
Clover and oats work fairly well. As was mentioned there is a ton of browse out there so, getting them to hit a food plot consistently is tougher. If you have room to plant 4 or 5 apple trees, it helps a bunch. Don't be discouraged if your foodplot brings in does and fawns. During the rut bucks will be there following does around.
Post by: Special T on January 17, 2018, 01:59:39 PM
If it's to hunt over? Apple trees, wild rose, and blackberries. Even then they would need a small opening otherwise they would only be visited by bucks at night.
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Post by: lokidog on January 17, 2018, 02:05:52 PM
A food play for BT depends on why you want it. To grow good deer? High protein stuff like clover will be ate up in the spring and grow health does and probably Bucks.
If it's to hunt over? Apple trees, wild rose, and blackberries. Even then they would need a small opening otherwise they would only be visited by bucks at night.
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I would disagree on the wild rose. Even here, where the deer eat anything moderately edible, they do not eat the wild roses.
Post by: Special T on January 17, 2018, 02:29:16 PM
I personally have tried a few things that didn't work so I'm not a huge fan of small food plots.
Read Boyd Iversons "Blactail Trophy tactic 2" and scouting is a better investment in time IMO
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Post by: Twispriver on January 17, 2018, 05:42:04 PM
Post by: lokidog on January 17, 2018, 05:51:11 PM
Plant something you don't want them to eat - like raspberries, ornamental trees, strawberries or rose bushes - they'll be all over it. :chuckle:
:chuckle:
Post by: Mallardmasher on January 17, 2018, 06:22:23 PM
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on January 17, 2018, 09:27:59 PM
Plant something you don't want them to eat - like raspberries, ornamental trees, strawberries or rose bushes - they'll be all over it. :chuckle::yeah:
Seriously... this WILL work! Ever seen what a couple does can do to a big row of strawberry plants in the summer... think lawnmower but with almost nothing left behind lol!
Post by: warthog on January 17, 2018, 10:47:25 PM
Plant something you don't want them to eat - like raspberries, ornamental trees, strawberries or rose bushes - they'll be all over it. :chuckle:
now heres a man who knows deer ! :chuckle:
Post by: elkfins on January 18, 2018, 10:07:06 AM
Post by: 180-GRAIN on January 18, 2018, 10:15:15 AM
Post by: headshot5 on January 18, 2018, 10:50:44 AM
Quote
Not to thread jack but I have the Apple trees already and deer are at my place about 6 months out of the year. I’m trying to keep them around year round so was thinking about starting a mineral lick. Wondering if anyone has used deer Cain and had good results for blacktail?
Just out of curiosity what 6 months are they not there?
Post by: 180-GRAIN on January 18, 2018, 10:55:39 AM
QuoteNot to thread jack but I have the Apple trees already and deer are at my place about 6 months out of the year. I’m trying to keep them around year round so was thinking about starting a mineral lick. Wondering if anyone has used deer Cain and had good results for blacktail?
Just out of curiosity what 6 months are they not there?
December until about June. One still passes through every now and then but not very frequently.
Post by: nwwanderer on January 18, 2018, 11:19:54 AM
Post by: Special T on January 18, 2018, 12:26:43 PM
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Post by: lokidog on January 18, 2018, 12:31:17 PM
QuoteNot to thread jack but I have the Apple trees already and deer are at my place about 6 months out of the year. I’m trying to keep them around year round so was thinking about starting a mineral lick. Wondering if anyone has used deer Cain and had good results for blacktail?
Just out of curiosity what 6 months are they not there?
December until about June. One still passes through every now and then but not very frequently.
Depending on the apple variety, they might not utilize it starting even earlier.
Plums are also good to plant as they will get the deer into an area before the earliest of apples, and if you like crow hunting... bingo. ;)
Post by: 180-GRAIN on January 18, 2018, 01:07:31 PM
QuoteNot to thread jack but I have the Apple trees already and deer are at my place about 6 months out of the year. I’m trying to keep them around year round so was thinking about starting a mineral lick. Wondering if anyone has used deer Cain and had good results for blacktail?
Just out of curiosity what 6 months are they not there?
December until about June. One still passes through every now and then but not very frequently.
Depending on the apple variety, they might not utilize it starting even earlier.
Plums are also good to plant as they will get the deer into an area before the earliest of apples, and if you like crow hunting... bingo. ;)
Ah yes plums! I have 4 trees on my property and they did not produce fruit this last year for some reason. Year before had a bumper crop and the deer were at my place early and often.
Post by: lokidog on January 18, 2018, 01:41:30 PM
I've thought about trying to get some native oaks going as well for after the apples are eaten up. We save a lot of the apples in a second fridge so we can toss them out under the trees to keep them coming and looking regularly.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on January 18, 2018, 01:48:57 PM
Post by: elkfins on January 18, 2018, 02:01:40 PM
QuoteNot to thread jack but I have the Apple trees already and deer are at my place about 6 months out of the year. I’m trying to keep them around year round so was thinking about starting a mineral lick. Wondering if anyone has used deer Cain and had good results for blacktail?
Just out of curiosity what 6 months are they not there?
December until about June. One still passes through every now and then but not very frequently.
Depending on the apple variety, they might not utilize it starting even earlier.
Plums are also good to plant as they will get the deer into an area before the earliest of apples, and if you like crow hunting... bingo. ;)
Ah yes plums! I have 4 trees on my property and they did not produce fruit this last year for some reason. Year before had a bumper crop and the deer were at my place early and often.
Interestingly enough, my plum trees had very few last year but a bumper crop the year before as well.
Post by: lokidog on January 18, 2018, 02:02:16 PM
Italian plums, deer love them things, even green. :tup:
This is what I would plant if I wanted wine or jelly and not just deer food. :chuckle:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 18, 2018, 02:09:27 PM
If I was planting plums specifically for deer attractant, I would plant the small cherry plum type as they produce more of them and it takes the deer longer to eat all of them.The cherry plums drop fruit so early, though. I guess some of them can hold off through part of early archery, but seems like they are pretty much done by September. But the deer do love them.
I've thought about trying to get some native oaks going as well for after the apples are eaten up. We save a lot of the apples in a second fridge so we can toss them out under the trees to keep them coming and looking regularly.
Post by: Mallardmasher on January 18, 2018, 07:04:29 PM
Post by: lokidog on January 18, 2018, 10:12:29 PM
If I was planting plums specifically for deer attractant, I would plant the small cherry plum type as they produce more of them and it takes the deer longer to eat all of them.The cherry plums drop fruit so early, though. I guess some of them can hold off through part of early archery, but seems like they are pretty much done by September. But the deer do love them.
I've thought about trying to get some native oaks going as well for after the apples are eaten up. We save a lot of the apples in a second fridge so we can toss them out under the trees to keep them coming and looking regularly.
This is my idea for using these plums, it gets the deer coming in earlier in their more reliable summer cycle, then the apples take over. The Italian Plums will just be ripe the same time as many apples.
Post by: Mallardmasher on January 19, 2018, 06:31:59 AM
Post by: fishnfur on January 21, 2018, 11:19:12 AM
http://www.chestnuthilloutdoors.com/store/c/19-Deer-Candy-Persimmon-Tree-Collection.aspx
Oak trees generally take 20 plus years to produce mast, and 50 years till they reach peak production. They may go several years between major crops, so a large plantation is required to keep deer coming in year after year. Not a great choice in my mind.
Post by: lokidog on January 21, 2018, 05:44:46 PM
Apples seem to be king in the NW. Persimmons and chestnuts have been big on the lists of Mid-west and Eastern WT managers in the last few years. Big time deer candy. Persimmons seem to be an excellent choice for Western WA. They grow fast, start producing fruit at an early age. The late drop variety should bring in deer during the general/MF season.
http://www.chestnuthilloutdoors.com/store/c/19-Deer-Candy-Persimmon-Tree-Collection.aspx
Oak trees generally take 20 plus years to produce mast, and 50 years till they reach peak production. They may go several years between major crops, so a large plantation is required to keep deer coming in year after year. Not a great choice in my mind.
Interesting, anyone here ever tried them?
Post by: Seahawk12 on January 21, 2018, 06:33:18 PM
7-10 years. And it alternately produces fruit and blooms every other year.
Post by: lokidog on January 21, 2018, 08:15:22 PM
From what I've read the persimmon take years to become fruit bearing.
7-10 years. And it alternately produces fruit and blooms every other year.
Hmmm, they have to bloom to produce fruit....
Apples are not a get deer rich quick scheme either.
Post by: Mallardmasher on January 21, 2018, 08:53:59 PM
Post by: fishnfur on January 23, 2018, 12:26:33 AM
When you can not control the menu, you create nocturnal deer. Now if your food source coincides with the rut, and you can draw in the ladies, the Bucks will follow, Problem is you need more then a few trees, or they will eat you out fast.
I tend to think the reverse is true. When you control the timing of the (daily) feeding, you can train them to come out in daylight, otherwise they stick to their natural diurnal patterns or worse, nocturnal. Whatever you're doing though Mallardmasher seems to work awfully well.
Apple trees have to rank up near blackberries as a BT's favorite food. They're on mine from bud break until late in the season when the last leaves fall. Browse lines are evident at the beginning of June. Only does and young bucks seem to partake up until the rut. Once fruit starts falling, the action increases but the big bucks don't come in till the does get hot, and stop coming at all around the 12th of November. (suburban setting)
Last note on Persimmons: found this article on the QDMA website, which is only mildly interesting. There are some links at the bottom of the article regarding other plantings for attracting deer, which may be worth a read. https://www.qdma.com/sex-among-persimmons/
Post by: Mallardmasher on January 23, 2018, 08:01:42 AM
All stands we have been supplementing since Oct, the bucks have dropped their horns and started new growth, the two new properties we just started at Christmas, all bucks still have their horns, but body weight is increasing. Every day/year is a learning process. To much fun.
Post by: lokidog on January 23, 2018, 08:37:08 AM
Fishnfur, I think I did not state my position very well, it is same as yours basically. Any planted source, they eat when they choose, does frequent it more then big bucks, as rut approaches, big bucks show more during daylight hours. Looking for the concentrated ladies. When supplementing, I can get them to come in first hour of morning light and last hour of light pretty easy. Only natural planting I partake of is fertilizing the natural browse. To increase it’s value.
All stands we have been supplementing since Oct, the bucks have dropped their horns and started new growth, the two new properties we just started at Christmas, all bucks still have their horns, but body weight is increasing. Every day/year is a learning process. To much fun.
What do you use for fertilizing and how?
When I am putting apples out, I try to only put them out in the morning and afternoon to try to get them looking in daylight. I've started hanging a few apples up out of reach so there is a scent attractant there all the time.
Post by: Mallardmasher on January 23, 2018, 08:56:35 AM
Post by: lokidog on January 23, 2018, 09:01:01 AM
I definitely prefer archery season when they are still green and more predictable.
Post by: Thehowler on January 23, 2018, 09:04:15 AM
Post by: The scout on January 23, 2018, 09:37:06 AM
Post by: lokidog on January 23, 2018, 10:20:06 AM
But nothing very recent pops up, unfortunately.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 23, 2018, 10:42:57 AM
Post by: fishnfur on January 24, 2018, 07:03:44 PM
Mallardmasher - sounds like a good setup you've got going. Perhaps I should stop by and inspect it more closely! :chuckle:
Post by: Mallardmasher on January 24, 2018, 07:49:34 PM
Post by: fishnfur on January 24, 2018, 11:43:55 PM
I was just thinking some more about fertilization of woodlands. It makes good sense on the Peninsula, where the soils are composed primarily of glacial tills (gravel) and have a relatively small organic component to them. Down here on the Columbia, the deep soils have so much nitrogen in them, adding fertilizer would certainly have a less obvious effect. The amount of sunlight reaching the forest floor is the limiting factor in what can grow.
Interesting ideas for sure though. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and practices.
Post by: Mallardmasher on January 25, 2018, 01:22:25 AM
Post by: jamesfromseattle on January 25, 2018, 08:38:38 AM
I’m up near Marblemount in a relatively dark river bottom. Found some critters up in the hills above us, but haven’t seen a single deer on the property yet. Dumped some apples, various commercial deer supplements, and mineral blocks in a few spots just to see what’s out there. So far, nothing but a coyotes on the apples.
I’m thinking that I’ll need a pretty radical change to make a difference because there is just not much naturally on my property that deer seem to like. Thinking about doing a couple cherry trees, a couple plum trees. and then a couple each of two types of apple trees (an early and late fruiting variety). The theory is that if one of these things are fruiting at all times between late June and October, they will have something to munch on the whole time and stick around.
Major problem with this plan is that my place is pretty dark. Pretty certain it doesn’t get enough sun for the fruit to taste good to humans. Any insight on whether deer will still be interested in fruit that never really gets ripe?
Post by: lokidog on January 25, 2018, 11:08:10 AM
If there are no natural travel routes through your property, especially with little natural feed, it will be take longer to get anything coming in even after your food sources are established. :twocents:
Post by: fishnfur on January 25, 2018, 02:01:07 PM
Dark river/creek bottoms are perfect for growing shade tolerant species that deer love, such as Salmonberry and Elderberry. Those plants need at least medium amounts of light. Alder bottoms areas like this allow enough light to the forest floor to keep those edibles growing, and deer will hit them hard in the fall after many other plants have flowered and withered. If it is really dark, you're probably stuck making a clearing first and then replanting, or just finding a better spot that gets more light. If it is a noisy watercourse, then the deer may avoid it because they'll have problems hearing potential predators.
My guess on fruit trees in a shaded site is that you'd be lucky to get much if any fruit production at all. Most (possibly all) require full sun. Probably something like six hours of full sun per day is minimum. Mr. Google probably knows for sure.
In my experience, winter is a tough time to attract animals with salt and bait. They are in energy conservation mode and feeding close to home. They're not travelling to find food. Once the buds start breaking in March/April, the deer will be out looking for higher quality forage and will find your apples and salt. Down here, salt licks are not very effective past mid-spring. The deer stop hitting it and let the other critters go at it.
Post by: jamesfromseattle on January 25, 2018, 02:27:32 PM
When I bought the place I fully understood that we may not have many deer right on it (fortunately we have Sierra Pacific land nearby), but once we had it I couldn't resist the urge to try to attract some deer.
Post by: fishnfur on January 25, 2018, 02:34:18 PM
Post by: fishnfur on January 25, 2018, 11:56:09 PM
Rumors are correct, but the pics are closer to HC cabin
Interesting.... Evergreen Huck dominates, right? I hate that stuff to death.
Post by: cougforester on January 26, 2018, 08:23:07 AM
JamesfromSeattle - Loki is right on the mark with his comments. You'll need cover to hide deer movement and provide escape routes back to safety if you want them to linger in there during dawn and dusk hours. Close conifer plantings provide thermal cover once they get some size to them, but you can never bet that they will hold deer with any regularity. Western Hemlock or possibly Pacific Silver Fir are the best bets in very low light areas
Dark river/creek bottoms are perfect for growing shade tolerant species that deer love, such as Salmonberry and Elderberry. Those plants need at least medium amounts of light. Alder bottoms areas like this allow enough light to the forest floor to keep those edibles growing, and deer will hit them hard in the fall after many other plants have flowered and withered. If it is really dark, you're probably stuck making a clearing first and then replanting, or just finding a better spot that gets more light. If it is a noisy watercourse, then the deer may avoid it because they'll have problems hearing potential predators.
My guess on fruit trees in a shaded site is that you'd be lucky to get much if any fruit production at all. Most (possibly all) require full sun. Probably something like six hours of full sun per day is minimum. Mr. Google probably knows for sure.
In my experience, winter is a tough time to attract animals with salt and bait. They are in energy conservation mode and feeding close to home. They're not travelling to find food. Once the buds start breaking in March/April, the deer will be out looking for higher quality forage and will find your apples and salt. Down here, salt licks are not very effective past mid-spring. The deer stop hitting it and let the other critters go at it.
Could also consider some western red cedar. If you plant and cover them with plastic tubes for a couple years, they will be tall enough to sustain pretty heavy browse. Elk and blacktail love them. Plus they're extremely shade tolerant.
Post by: fishnfur on January 26, 2018, 09:24:28 AM
If there's not much animal traffic though, and you can get some decent sun in there, you can add WRC and Grand Fir to the list.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 26, 2018, 09:35:59 AM
Post by: jamesfromseattle on January 26, 2018, 03:07:00 PM
Post by: Mallardmasher on January 26, 2018, 08:41:04 PM
Post by: fishnfur on January 26, 2018, 11:45:47 PM
If you thin those alders to 12 - 13 foot spacing and/or open the canopy to 30 - 50%, you'll get massive succulent regrowth of the understory brush layer. Creating small clearings might be a great idea too ( - maybe with a few fruit trees). Sadly the salal and Evergreen Huck will grow into impenetrable masses in the increased light, if that is the predominant brush. Cut 'em down to the ground and spray with herbicide, if you hate them as I do. Replant with something more delicious and nutritious. Picking Thimble Berries, Trailing Blackberries, and perhaps Salmon Berries (for moist areas) and burying the seeds in desired areas might be worth a shot in trying to establish better browse. These three plants are wonderful BT attractants, though the Thimbles seem to need full sun.
When thinning, I cut alders at waist to shoulder level leaving high stumps in hopes that deer might feel hidden by them and be more willing to linger in low light. I found that opening things up too much can turn a great spot into a night use only spot pretty quickly, though the understory often responds quickly and fills in the missing cover. I don't prune low tree branches anymore for this very reason. I also tried hinge cutting Cascara trees on hillsides in attempts to improve bedding areas. Some worked, some didn't. The trees always died, which was not intended. They are not as shade tolerant as I believed. Vine Maples would certainly work better for this purpose.
Good luck MM. Look forward to hearing about your progress.
Post by: Mallardmasher on January 27, 2018, 01:14:43 PM
With a swampy pond on one corner, and the old skids, where cut lower and seem to be damper.
We plan to trim in random patches of huck and salal, to waist height, thin alders along old skid roads, plant salmon berries, and loads of fire weed in bright areas, and in the damp alder bottoms plant some skunk cabbage. And randomly, plant dull Oregon grape.
Along with our Supplementation and broad fertilization with an evergreen shrub and bush fertilizer by Scott’s
Post by: fishnfur on January 27, 2018, 02:10:25 PM
1) Do you have a feeling for how much the deer browse the Huckleberry? I've got 10 acres of reprod near Vaughn. I get no indication that they are hitting the stuff at all. They seem to prefer young scotch broom. Many deer on the Peninsula seem to prefer the tips of sword fern to many other items available.
2). Do you have a source for fireweed seed? I've been thinking that is a good choice as well, but gone no further in pursuing it.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 27, 2018, 02:38:30 PM
Sidenote, there is an old report on blacktails from British Columbia and the biologists claim fireweed to probably be the most important browse species for blacktails. It's also one of the first to go when herbicide is sprayed...
Here's the research stuff from BC.
https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/pubs/docs/srs/srs05/Srs05_Chapter2.pdf (https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/pubs/docs/srs/srs05/Srs05_Chapter2.pdf)
Post by: fishnfur on January 27, 2018, 04:23:05 PM
Good article too. I'll spend some time with that one. Most scientific studies I've read on BT forage place Blackberries at/near the top of the list; sometimes up to 65% of the diet, though Fireweed is always on that list as well. Geographic variance in browse species available seems to dictate what they eat during each season. Your article points out the importance of ensuring the abundance of highly digestible/high protein winter browse, as it is key in maintaining a healthy thriving deer population throughout the year. Good stuff!
Post by: Mallardmasher on January 27, 2018, 06:27:26 PM
Post by: fishnfur on January 28, 2018, 10:31:30 AM
Post by: Greg Mullins on March 10, 2018, 07:58:33 PM
Post by: Dr. Death on March 10, 2018, 10:13:39 PM
Post by: jamesfromseattle on March 15, 2018, 09:39:57 PM
I moved all my cameras back off the river to quieter places—either behind something to obstruct the sound or just far enough away that is wasn’t loud. Saw WAY more deer. I think the noise must have been the problem. Thanks again for that suggestion.
Post by: fishnfur on March 15, 2018, 10:07:23 PM
BTW, since we were talking about planting deer food, and after re-evaluating my (poor) success in growing cedar in partial sun and shade, I'd reiterate that if you want to grow something well and quickly, full sun is the only way to go.
Post by: Calvin Rayborn on March 19, 2018, 10:21:59 AM
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on March 20, 2018, 08:56:57 PM
Deer cocaine legal these days?For you or the deer?
Post by: Huntingtony on March 29, 2018, 05:11:09 AM
Post by: fishnfur on March 29, 2018, 11:06:13 PM