Post by: GBoyd on March 05, 2018, 04:46:50 PM
I mounted a decent 3-9x40 and took a shot at 30 yards to make sure I was on paper. When I started shooting at 150 yards, I was really disappointed. I shot a few three round groups and they were all about 20 inches across. I've never encountered a gun this bad and I don't know what to do about it. I've only tried it with Core-Lokts and I haven't tried a copper cleaner, but I can't imagine those things would make enough of a difference.
Any advice for things to try to get hunting accuracy out of this rifle? I really like how handy it is, so I'd be willing to put a bit of money into it.
And if nothing works, what do I do with it? I can't sell a guy a rifle that won't shoot.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on March 05, 2018, 04:48:38 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 05, 2018, 04:50:09 PM
Post by: Bill W on March 05, 2018, 04:53:21 PM
Post by: Bofire on March 05, 2018, 04:55:20 PM
just let it go
Carl
Post by: jasnt on March 05, 2018, 05:18:26 PM
Post by: 762Armo on March 05, 2018, 05:24:21 PM
Are you sure the scope isn't the issue?
I'm willing to bet the issue is scope related.
Post by: Alchase on March 05, 2018, 06:06:03 PM
Post by: brew on March 05, 2018, 06:28:19 PM
Post by: lewy on March 05, 2018, 07:13:17 PM
Post by: buglebuster on March 05, 2018, 07:19:08 PM
Post by: Bill W on March 05, 2018, 07:21:34 PM
Post by: ellensburgpo on March 05, 2018, 07:22:11 PM
Post by: opdinkslayer on March 05, 2018, 07:35:06 PM
maybe he's shooting offhand.:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: was thinking that myself when i read the op
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 05, 2018, 08:00:12 PM
if your base and rings are solid then there is no way its the ammo....any crappy factory ammo wont "group" at 20" at 100 yards....scope problemI don't know. I have done a scope swap and had one rifle shoot great with both scopes at any range and the other wouldn't stay on the 2'x2' cardboard at 50 yds.
Post by: hunter399 on March 05, 2018, 08:01:21 PM
Try a different scope off another rifle if you have too.
Post by: Alchase on March 05, 2018, 08:13:19 PM
if your base and rings are solid then there is no way its the ammo....any crappy factory ammo wont "group" at 20" at 100 yards....scope problemI don't know. I have done a scope swap and had one rifle shoot great with both scopes at any range and the other wouldn't stay on the 2'x2' cardboard at 50 yds.
He said he was shooting at 150 yds.
I prefer to be methodical about troubleshooting issues like this. If the scope had no issues in the past, rings and mounts would be my first check. Ammo would be the next cheapest to check and would narrow it down to either the "decent scope" he used or the rifle, not likely, but can happen.
I have had way more issues where a rifle does not like certain ammo then a bad scope.
Just never 20 inches at 150 yds kind of problems, LOL
Assuming he is shooting from a rest, not offhand as Bill W asked. If he is shooting offhand, that would be consistent with about 90% of all range shooters I have seen over the years. :chuckle:
Post by: Dan-o on March 05, 2018, 08:47:01 PM
Tough to believe a rifle would group like that.
I would check the crown.
Post by: GBoyd on March 05, 2018, 09:33:52 PM
Yeah, I was shooting off sandbags.
So the scope: it's a Leupold VX-2 3-9x40. I had it on my main hunting rifle for a few years and it worked fine. I took it off when I upgraded and have had it in storage until now. I doubt there's anything wrong with it. I have it mounted with Vortex rings that came with the gun. I don't see any problems with them. I skipped the Loktite, but used a torque wrench to get the right pressure on all the screws. It seems most people think the problem is in this area, so I'll definitely experiment here before writing the gun off entirely.
The crown and bore: looks fine to me. You can probably tell I don't know a ton about rifles, but I don't see any problems. The rifling is strong and easy to see. There are no weird marks or damage around the crown. Is there something else specific I should be looking for here?
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 05, 2018, 09:43:06 PM
Do you know if the rifle was broken in properly?
:fishin:
Sounds like an absolute piece of junk if the break action is locking up tight and the scope is good. Only other thing possibly worth trying is a few shots from a fresh box of ammunition just on the off chance there is something weird there. Doesn’t really make sense
Post by: Biggerhammer on March 05, 2018, 09:56:51 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on March 06, 2018, 12:52:39 AM
How are you resting the rifle on the sandbags, forearm or barrel?
What grain bullet are you shooting?
Found this, sounds like a lot of what you are experiencing:
http://ammosmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=6597.0
Post by: jasnt on March 06, 2018, 06:04:42 AM
Post by: Bill W on March 06, 2018, 08:00:38 AM
Post by: GBoyd on March 06, 2018, 08:13:16 PM
Did you check the base screws and make sure they were tight before installing the rings?
How are you resting the rifle on the sandbags, forearm or barrel?
What grain bullet are you shooting?
Found this, sounds like a lot of what you are experiencing:
http://ammosmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=6597.0
Thanks for that link! I was shooting 100 grain Core-Lokts. I'm hopeful now that switching to a lighter bullet might do the trick.
Post by: Calvin Rayborn on March 06, 2018, 08:15:54 PM
:yeah:Are you sure the scope isn't the issue?
I'm willing to bet the issue is scope related.
Post by: GBoyd on March 19, 2018, 08:56:02 PM
So, I went to the gun store with another scope I had lying around and bought a new set of rings. I even had the owner there mount it for me to be sure that the problem wasn't with how I mounted it. I took it out again this afternoon and shot group sizes identical to the first day- more than 12 inches at 100 yards.
Any suggestions for other things I can try? There's a lot of talk about these on other forums, but they're mainly focused on taking them from 4 inch groups down to 2 inch groups. It doesn't seem that there's many that do this poorly.
Post by: Bob33 on March 19, 2018, 09:03:58 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 19, 2018, 09:11:37 PM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on March 19, 2018, 09:25:57 PM
Another thought, how are you shooting this? In a lead sled, vise, off a rest. Are you resting back by the action or out toward the barrel?
Post by: Hemlock on March 20, 2018, 06:25:42 AM
Post by: lord grizzly on March 20, 2018, 06:29:21 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 20, 2018, 06:33:29 AM
Post by: Slenk on March 20, 2018, 08:14:45 AM
I have a few things that may help that are not guesses.
First of all just a little history on me. I am 77 years old .
I have been shooting break action single shot rifles for a lot of years.
H&R, NEF, Savage & Rossi.
You can not get good groups resting the forearm or barrel on sandbags or a rest.
You need to rest behind the hinge point ,or action.
Also remove the forearm and put a O-ring around the stud that the screw goes into then replace forearm. hope some of this helps someone.
Post by: jackelope on March 20, 2018, 08:22:30 AM
If you have definitively ruled out the scope and the ammunition and the shooter, then it's time to move on and sell it.
Sounds like a cull to me. Not sure I'd want to sell it in good faith.
My buddy's kid has one and it shoots reasonably well. He's killed a few bucks with it.
Post by: bobcat on March 20, 2018, 08:30:03 AM
I couldn't sell a gun that shoots 12 inch "groups." Give it away, maybe.
Post by: hunter399 on March 20, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
:yeah:I called it first ,reply 15, :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
I couldn't sell a gun that shoots 12 inch "groups." Give it away, maybe.
My offer still stands on pm me anytime.
Post by: bearpaw on March 20, 2018, 08:47:35 AM
Quote
For the first trip, all I did was defoul the barrel and buy some 80 grain ammo. Neither of those seemed to make a difference.
If you have ruled everything else out mounts, scope, hinge pin, and barrel twist, and you have other guns that shoot well by shooting them the same way you are shooting this gun then it sounds like either the rifling is worn out or fouled. If it's fouled with copper then defouling can be tough to do. For a couple years I had a gun that I thought I had defouled but I wasn't really getting the job done, I took it to a gunsmith and he pointed out that he could see copper fouling, I bought some copper cleaner and used it aggressively over a couple day period until I could let the gun sit wet with cleaner in the barrel for several hours and when I ran a patch through it came out perfectly clean with no blue discoloration. The group that gun shoots tighened up to 30% of what it had been shooting.
Post by: N7XW on March 20, 2018, 08:58:24 AM
:yeah:QuoteFor the first trip, all I did was defoul the barrel and buy some 80 grain ammo. Neither of those seemed to make a difference.
If you have ruled everything else out mounts, scope, hinge pin, and barrel twist, and you have other guns that shoot well by shooting them the same way you are shooting this gun then it sounds like either the rifling is worn out or fouled. If it's fouled with copper then defouling can be tough to do. For a couple years I had a gun that I thought I had defouled but I wasn't really getting the job done, I took it to a gunsmith and he pointed out that he could see copper fouling, I bought some copper cleaner and used it aggressively over a couple day period until I could let the gun sit wet with cleaner in the barrel for several hours and when I ran a patch through it came out perfectly clean with no blue discoloration. The group that gun shoots tighened up to 30% of what it had been shooting.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on March 20, 2018, 09:02:22 AM
Well I have read all the guesses on this thread.
I have a few things that may help that are not guesses.
First of all just a little history on me. I am 77 years old .
I have been shooting break action single shot rifles for a lot of years.
H&R, NEF, Savage & Rossi.
You can not get good groups resting the forearm or barrel on sandbags or a rest.
You need to rest behind the hinge point ,or action.
Also remove the forearm and put a O-ring around the stud that the screw goes into then replace forearm. hope some of this helps someone.
Seems like sage advice here. I wouldn't give up on it yet, until after the above is tried.
Post by: Alchase on March 20, 2018, 09:56:18 AM
Break action rifles and shotguns look great up on the wall with the breach open!
Post by: jackelope on March 20, 2018, 12:06:15 PM
:yeah:
Break action rifles and shotguns look great up on the wall with the breach open!
I've got a couple that say they're good for uses other than that.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on March 20, 2018, 12:24:59 PM
You see the same thing with people saying a spring piston air rifle won't shoot well. Other shooters, applying different skills and knowledge, get different results.
Post by: Alchase on March 20, 2018, 01:52:04 PM
:yeah:
Break action rifles and shotguns look great up on the wall with the breach open!
I've got a couple that say they're good for uses other than that.
Did not mean to imply breaks actions can't shoot, just that they really do look great as wall art.
:tup:
Post by: Special T on March 20, 2018, 02:14:35 PM
I had a well loved firearm that jammed, didn't shoot well, and I didn't have much invested in. I learned a bunch by watching as many FYI videos as I could. Time, sandpaper and cleaning did a bunch to improve the weapon AND my understanding of how firearms work...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: GBoyd on March 20, 2018, 08:01:23 PM
Slenk, I was shooting using shooting sticks on the forearm. I'll definitely try again with the rest behind the hinge. It's also easy enough to add the O-ring like you suggest. I'm not going to turn down any possible fixes that are that cheap. If single shots are fussy about rests, I can also try a few groups offhand to see if that helps things.
Bearpaw, thanks for the suggestion to do a more thorough defouling. I'll admit that I still had blue on the patches after my first attempt. I'll get it clean before going back out to the range.
If none of those things get the rifle Minute of Deer, I'll probably call it quits. Working on the crown, hinge, or other real gunsmithing just doesn't seem worth it for this quality of rifle. I'd be too embarrassed to sell it to anyone, but maybe I'll contact the store I bought it from. If I'd be too embarrassed to sell it, maybe they'll feel the same way.
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on March 20, 2018, 09:17:59 PM