Post by: wooltie on April 20, 2018, 11:33:14 AM
Shot 1 = lowest charge
Shot 9 = highest charge
Shots were charged in 0.5g increments, shot at 100 yards.
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 20, 2018, 11:34:41 AM
Post by: LabChamp on April 20, 2018, 11:49:11 AM
Post by: Reidus on April 20, 2018, 12:08:19 PM
I'd try loads 6, 7 and 8 again.
Post by: jasnt on April 20, 2018, 12:11:17 PM
From what I see 8-9 looks good but at 100 yards its hard to see the speed difference. May look level but could be just coincidence. If 100 yards is as far as you can shoot then do 3 shot ocw testing.
Post by: Henrydog on April 20, 2018, 12:26:47 PM
Post by: jmscon on April 20, 2018, 12:33:48 PM
I will be getting into this during the summer, once my rifle is put back together.
Post by: jasnt on April 20, 2018, 12:38:52 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 20, 2018, 12:39:42 PM
No detailed on what caliber you are shooting, but ALL the shots are low for 100 yards unless you are shooting patched round ballspoint of impact is irrelevant in this test. The target is merely a repeatable aiming point. The task is collecting data, not hitting where you are aiming.
Post by: wooltie on April 20, 2018, 12:40:02 PM
I have not zeroed the rifle for the given bullet weight, which is why all shots were low.
There was a slight cross wind, but I have not adjusted the scope horizontal.
At this point I was looking for a flat spot on three shots. 2, 3, 4 look flat. 8, 9, 6 look flat, but 7 dips down. There's always that higher charge weight that shoots lower than the previous lower charge weight e.g. shot 7 lower than 6.
Post by: jasnt on April 20, 2018, 12:42:54 PM
30-06, 165g accubond, IMR4350, 53-57g in 0.5g increments.you can do ladder testing over a chrono at 100 yards or with out a target at all. If those loads are 1 moa you won't get accurate results.
I have not zeroed the rifle for the given bullet weight, which is why all shots were low.
There was a slight cross wind, but I have not adjusted the scope horizontal.
At this point I was looking for a flat spot on three shots. 2, 3, 4 look flat. 8, 9, 6 look flat, but 7 dips down. There's always that higher charge weight that shoots lower than the previous lower charge weight e.g. shot 7 lower than 6.
Post by: Henrydog on April 20, 2018, 12:49:53 PM
No detailed on what caliber you are shooting, but ALL the shots are low for 100 yards unless you are shooting patched round ballspoint of impact is irrelevant in this test. The target is merely a repeatable aiming point. The task is collecting data, not hitting where you are aiming.
10-4 I don't think before I speak...and I guess I don't before I type either. :chuckle:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 20, 2018, 12:51:59 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on April 20, 2018, 12:59:26 PM
There are at least two approaches to "ladder testing" that seem to have merit, at least with regard to precision shooting or finding your rifle's favorite load with a particular brass/primer/powder/bullet/seating/neck tension combo.
The first one basically entails shooting at a fairly distant target (400-500 yards) on a perfectly wind free day if possible while holding point of aim at the same place on the target. (This may not be possible or realistic depending upon the attributes of the rifle system and shooter ability.) Assuming constant enviro conditions from a cool barrel, the theory is that as velocity increases so too will the printing of your impacts. You are not shooting for group with this method. You're simply looking for a "node" where impacts appear to bunch together vertically. Preferably, one should perform this two to three times in order to obtain a reasonable understanding of which ranges of powder charges your rifle likes.
The second, which can be done alone or after determining the range of powder charges to investigate, simply allocate 4-5 rounds per charge and shoot for group. Pick the tightest group and run with it.
Post by: Bushcraft on April 20, 2018, 01:05:27 PM
http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html
Bingo. There is a wealth of knowledge to be had from that website.
Post by: wooltie on April 20, 2018, 01:58:24 PM
In a nutshell, and no offense implied, those results are randomly inconclusive and should not be relied upon for determining an optimum load.
There are at least two approaches to "ladder testing" that seem to have merit, at least with regard to precision shooting or finding your rifle's favorite load with a particular brass/primer/powder/bullet/seating/neck tension combo.
The first one basically entails shooting at a fairly distant target (400-500 yards) on a perfectly wind free day if possible while holding point of aim at the same place on the target. (This may not be possible or realistic depending upon the attributes of the rifle system and shooter ability.) Assuming constant enviro conditions from a cool barrel, the theory is that as velocity increases so too will the printing of your impacts. You are not shooting for group with this method. You're simply looking for a "node" where impacts appear to bunch together vertically. Preferably, one should perform this two to three times in order to obtain a reasonable understanding of which ranges of powder charges your rifle likes.
The second, which can be done alone or after determining the range of powder charges to investigate, simply allocate 4-5 rounds per charge and shoot for group. Pick the tightest group and run with it.
This is the approach I was/intended to use. Same POA, consistent rests, 2-3 minutes between shots. Albeit I could repeat the process from 200y instead of 100. Looking for shots with close vertical, then move onto 4-5 shot groups per charges around those charge weights.
Thanks everyone for the input.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 20, 2018, 02:08:01 PM
A longer distance would yield greater separation, which should make node discovery less like guesswork.
I did get enough of an idea to let me push forward with selecting which loads to further pursue with shooting for smallest groups.
Post by: lokidog on April 20, 2018, 06:04:23 PM
30-06, 165g accubond, IMR4350, 53-57g in 0.5g increments.
I have not zeroed the rifle for the given bullet weight, which is why all shots were low.
There was a slight cross wind, but I have not adjusted the scope horizontal.
At this point I was looking for a flat spot on three shots. 2, 3, 4 look flat. 8, 9, 6 look flat, but 7 dips down. There's always that higher charge weight that shoots lower than the previous lower charge weight e.g. shot 7 lower than 6.
56.5 grains behind every 165 gr lead based bullet I have shot through three different 30-06's has been the best. Bullet seated so just off the lands, pretty much max length for the magazine as it flattens the plastic tip a little on my ballistic tips.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 21, 2018, 08:41:55 AM
Post by: aaronoto on April 21, 2018, 04:38:59 PM
Post by: wooltie on April 22, 2018, 08:54:56 AM
I'd load it again and go .2 or .3 grain increments and shoot it over a chrono. I think you're going to be hard pressed to find a velocity flat spot when taking .5 grain increments as most nodes aren't that big. I don't even shoot my ladder tests on a target, I just strap the chrono on and shoot my ladder, then look for the velocity flat spots, and load up and hit the range for accuracy testing from there.
I did this while working on another load, same rifle. Found a flat spot over the chrono, then loaded up five rounds to confirm and saw an ES of 15 and SD of 6. Took this load and adjusted the seating depth, but couldn't find a group less than 1.25-1.5" @ 100 yards. This was with a 180g bullet, so I switched bullet weights to see if the gun just doesn't like the 180gs. Shooting .020" off the lands. Haven't played the switching out powder game yet though.
This is for hunting, not target shooting, looking for MOA or less.
I had a lot of chrono data from different charge weights. Out of a five shot group there is always that 1 or 2 shots where the velocity hits 30-40 FPS higher/lower than the other four shots.
Post by: lokidog on April 22, 2018, 08:59:42 AM
Post by: wooltie on April 22, 2018, 12:19:52 PM
I've been seating the 180s .020 off the lands and cleaning using boretech eliminator. I always see some copper coming out.
I seated the 165s .100 off the lands and just cleaned the barrel...no copper whatsoever, no light blue green stuff.
Most factory rounds have a .125-.100 jump for my gun
Post by: lord grizzly on April 22, 2018, 12:59:42 PM
No detailed on what caliber you are shooting, but ALL the shots are low for 100 yards unless you are shooting patched round ballspoint of impact is irrelevant in this test. The target is merely a repeatable aiming point. The task is collecting data, not hitting where you are aiming.
And one shot of each charge tells you nothing. Load um up again and get at least three of each. I’ve actually gone away from the typical ladder test for some time. If I have 9 different loads I’ll put up 9 targets and shot one each all the way through ( never three off the same load but one each fill all are shot) tha gets you where your trying to go a lot faster. And yes, shoot through a chrono or rally your not learning anything
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 22, 2018, 08:33:48 PM
Yes accuracy is the paramount factor in precise shooting. But by playing with powders and primers and seating depth a bit, it’s rare that one can’t find a spicy load that shoots tight groups too.
Post by: jasnt on April 23, 2018, 05:18:36 AM
I stopped doing the “three rounds of each weight” thing when I realized I didn’t care about accuracy nodes at low velocity. Yes I realize that sometimes we want a light recoiling easy shooting load. That said, I believe most of us reload for high performance and consistency. In that case, why shoot all that powder for loads that wouldn’t interest the shooter ballistically regardless of accuracy.:yeah:
Yes accuracy is the paramount factor in precise shooting. But by playing with powders and primers and seating depth a bit, it’s rare that one can’t find a spicy load that shoots tight groups too.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 23, 2018, 05:42:09 AM
I stopped doing the “three rounds of each weight” thing when I realized I didn’t care about accuracy nodes at low velocity. Yes I realize that sometimes we want a light recoiling easy shooting load. That said, I believe most of us reload for high performance and consistency. In that case, why shoot all that powder for loads that wouldn’t interest the shooter ballistically regardless of accuracy.
Yes accuracy is the paramount factor in precise shooting. But by playing with powders and primers and seating depth a bit, it’s rare that one can’t find a spicy load that shoots tight groups too.
How do you fine tune around your upper end load then? I do 3 or 4 shot groups around suspected upper node suggested by ladder test and quickload and watching for velocity plateau but maybe there is an easier way ?
Post by: jasnt on April 23, 2018, 06:01:31 AM
i can't answer for the Jon but I do single shot ladder to find up node and preasure. Then group test that node. Normally have less than 30 rounds to find my load and tune it. Has worked well for me.I stopped doing the “three rounds of each weight” thing when I realized I didn’t care about accuracy nodes at low velocity. Yes I realize that sometimes we want a light recoiling easy shooting load. That said, I believe most of us reload for high performance and consistency. In that case, why shoot all that powder for loads that wouldn’t interest the shooter ballistically regardless of accuracy.
Yes accuracy is the paramount factor in precise shooting. But by playing with powders and primers and seating depth a bit, it’s rare that one can’t find a spicy load that shoots tight groups too.
How do you fine tune around your upper end load then? I do 3 or 4 shot groups around suspected upper node suggested by ladder test and quickload and watching for velocity plateau but maybe there is an easier way ?
Post by: hogslayer on April 23, 2018, 06:30:01 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 23, 2018, 07:28:06 AM
Post by: hogslayer on April 23, 2018, 08:41:11 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 23, 2018, 08:50:58 AM
I think the jon was saying that he won’t use up lots of components on lower velocity loads. I do the same. Work up to find max load and then fine tune from there. There isn’t a need to shoot a min starting load for groups imo if it’s 100-200 fps lower than the cartridge is capable of.I stopped doing the “three rounds of each weight” thing when I realized I didn’t care about accuracy nodes at low velocity. Yes I realize that sometimes we want a light recoiling easy shooting load. That said, I believe most of us reload for high performance and consistency. In that case, why shoot all that powder for loads that wouldn’t interest the shooter ballistically regardless of accuracy.
Yes accuracy is the paramount factor in precise shooting. But by playing with powders and primers and seating depth a bit, it’s rare that one can’t find a spicy load that shoots tight groups too.
How do you fine tune around your upper end load then? I do 3 or 4 shot groups around suspected upper node suggested by ladder test and quickload and watching for velocity plateau but maybe there is an easier way ?
Basically the same as you but without quickload.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 23, 2018, 10:10:27 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 23, 2018, 11:00:43 AM
Got It! I agree I just cant bring myself to search lower velocity rounds for a node either tho I know Im needlessly handicapping myself by being speed hungry.That’s because faster is always more better! :tung:
Post by: wooltie on April 23, 2018, 05:31:20 PM
I loaded up 5 charge weights in 3 shot groups and watched the rounds go from no group to group.
Still have to load up more rounds of that charge weight and play with seating depth to verify that load groups consistently, but it's a start.
165g accubond, 56.5 g IMR4350.
I understand and like the theory behind the ladder testing using a chrony to obtain data and ignore target impact. Find the flat spot, load around the flat spot to verify groups, adjust SD accordingly. I saw inconsistencies between the point of impact and the measured velocity. Some higher velocity shots actually impacted the target lower than lower velocity shots. I ran with the flat spot, but couldn't get the rounds to group at all after adjusting for seating depth. I might have messed up somewhere, or my rifle just doesn't these bullets in 180g.
Can anyone explain why a higher charge weight might produce a point of impact lower than that of a lower charge weight? I would expect the ladder to go up, up, up, flat, flat, up, etc...not up, up, flat, down, up, down, up, up.
Post by: jasnt on April 23, 2018, 07:21:05 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLJUaiRIEduNXoal2_PkBZi0vDCIcEPxUn&v=ilT_U5uHJk0
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 23, 2018, 07:34:52 PM