Post by: Jolten on April 21, 2018, 07:39:10 PM
Looking at Sierra's manual it says max load of varget is 43gr for 2700fps.
Hodgens reloading website States for a 165gr bullet 46gr is max for 2700fps.
3grs difference for the same speed rating seems pretty wide of a stretch.
If I worked up from 41.5gr in .5gr increments would it be safe to go above 43?
Post by: hogslayer on April 21, 2018, 08:05:09 PM
Post by: Jolten on April 21, 2018, 08:24:07 PM
Post by: hunter399 on April 21, 2018, 08:26:33 PM
Post by: jasnt on April 21, 2018, 08:56:18 PM
Your rifle will tell you when to stop
http://www.massreloading.com/reading_pressure_signs.html
Post by: bobcat on April 21, 2018, 09:14:29 PM
Having said that, the Hodgdon data I'm looking at shows 2773 with 46.0 grains of Varget (assuming you're talking about a 308 Win.)
And Nosler data shows 2820 fps with 46.0 grains of Varget, and 165 grain bullet.
Both of these sources are using a 24 inch barrel so if yours is shorter you couldn't expect to match their velocities.
I certainly wouldn't push it much further as long as you're getting good accuracy. 2700 fps is plenty for a 165 grain bullet. Gaining 50 or even 100 fps won't make any significant difference in performance.
Post by: Jolten on April 21, 2018, 09:35:22 PM
Sierra 165gr hpbt Gamekings
Winchester Brass
CCI Br2 primers.
I don't think I should be hitting 2700 as I believe a 24" barrel is used by Sierra. But 2600 maybe? I've read 25fps loss for each inch less of barrel.
Post by: blackpowderhunter on April 21, 2018, 09:38:03 PM
the load i just finished up with today was the most accurate, but slower than what the nosler manual said it should be...and less than max.
just keep an eye on the brass, and bolt lift.
every rifle is different and lots of gun powder and a primer in a confined space is not something to guess with.
Post by: hogslayer on April 21, 2018, 10:15:03 PM
Velocity is your best indicator of pressure. If your chronograph is accurate and reliable, I would go by the velocity more than anything else. If the book says 2700 is max, then stop when you get to that velocity.
Having said that, the Hodgdon data I'm looking at shows 2773 with 46.0 grains of Varget (assuming you're talking about a 308 Win.)
And Nosler data shows 2820 fps with 46.0 grains of Varget, and 165 grain bullet.
Both of these sources are using a 24 inch barrel so if yours is shorter you couldn't expect to match their velocities.
I certainly wouldn't push it much further as long as you're getting good accuracy. 2700 fps is plenty for a 165 grain bullet. Gaining 50 or even 100 fps won't make any significant difference in performance.
Not sure if I follow you when your saying velocity is pressure. Take a round with any of the Hogdon powders and see where your max velocity is. Then try it with a double base powder such as Reloader or Vhitavouri and it will be much higher. Bolt lift, flat primers, ejector marks are signs I look for pressure.
Post by: blackpowderhunter on April 21, 2018, 10:47:44 PM
i think people get too hung up on velocity.Velocity is your best indicator of pressure. If your chronograph is accurate and reliable, I would go by the velocity more than anything else. If the book says 2700 is max, then stop when you get to that velocity.
Having said that, the Hodgdon data I'm looking at shows 2773 with 46.0 grains of Varget (assuming you're talking about a 308 Win.)
And Nosler data shows 2820 fps with 46.0 grains of Varget, and 165 grain bullet.
Both of these sources are using a 24 inch barrel so if yours is shorter you couldn't expect to match their velocities.
my most recent load build up i was hoping for 3100+ fps but 3050 proved most accurate. primers looked good, bolt lift was easy, and most important of all it was accurate. i might have to adjust my zero a little bit, but id rather do that than stretch brass life and safety.
I certainly wouldn't push it much further as long as you're getting good accuracy. 2700 fps is plenty for a 165 grain bullet. Gaining 50 or even 100 fps won't make any significant difference in performance.
Not sure if I follow you when your saying velocity is pressure. Take a round with any of the Hogdon powders and see where your max velocity is. Then try it with a double base powder such as Reloader or Vhitavouri and it will be much higher. Bolt lift, flat primers, ejector marks are signs I look for pressure.
accuracy kills more than velocity. i agree. watch bolt lift and brass. i'd give up 100 fps for longer brass life and overall safer conditions.
Post by: bobcat on April 21, 2018, 11:36:18 PM
To be safe, you shouldn't be going over the max powder charge in your manual, and also don't go over the max book velocity if you happen to hit that velocity before you get to the max book charge. That's assuming your data is using the same bullet.
Now, if you don't have a chronograph, I would suggest never going over the max charge shown in your book. Because again, the traditional pressure signs that people use just are not that reliable.
Post by: bobcat on April 22, 2018, 01:15:21 AM
Read the article beginning on page 68 here:
http://www.tulprpc.org/attachments/File/Load_Development_May_11.pdf
Or here's part of it:
Quote
Another common misconcep tion is that case separations are caused by excessive pressure. Well, no. Over the decades I’ve encountered a number of cartridge cases that were the victims of hot loads. Some had odd marks on the case head, while others had primer pockets large enough for two primers – though no trace of a primer was left in the hole. Yet none of these cases showed the shiny ring of stretching, and their bodies hadn’t cracked anywhere. Instead, case separations are caused by (you guessed it) excessive headspace. Now, often cases with a shiny ring in front of the case head, or actual cracks in the same area, also have flattened primers, supposedly a classic sign of high pressure. I hate to break the news, but flat primers aren’t necessarily an indication of high pressure, or even a very good sign.
The primer myth has been around long enough that Gen. Julian Hatcher warned against it way back in 1947, when his book Hatcher’s Notebook was first published. (This is one of the basic texts of rifles and ammunition, even today, and every serious shooter should own a copy.) Early in the chapter on headspace, Hatcher discusses wildcat cartridges: “Usually the originator of one of these cartridges had no facilities for taking pressures, and depended entirely on the notoriously unreliable [emphasis mine] method of judging pressures by the appearance of the primer.” But myths are much harder to kill than create, so some handloaders continue to believe they can divine pressure from a primer.
When a rifle cartridge goes off, the primer is pushed backward, due to powder gas pushing through the flash-hole, so it would seem to make sense that a really flat primer indicates high pressure. Not necessarily. A really flat primer can also be caused by slightly excessive headspace. When the firing pin hits the primer, it drives the case forward. If there’s a little slop between case and chamber, the expanding powder gas first pushes the primer backward in the primer pocket. If the pressure is low enough, as with the .30-30 Winchester, the primers will remain slightly backed out of the fired brass. This is common in ancient and well-worn .30-30 lever actions.
If the pressure is higher, however, as with the .30-06, the rear of the primer itself expands a little as it backs out, since it’s no longer supported by the primer pocket. In another micro-second the case itself is thrust back over the slightly expanded primer. At the same time, the case stretches a little bit, so the handloader also finds a shiny ring a half-inch in front of the case head. Our innocent handloader now sees what he thinks are two signs of high pressure, when in reality the only problem is oversizing the case. Primer cups also vary in thickness and hardness not just from brand to brand, but lot to lot. Add tiny differences in headspace, and trying to “estimate” pressures from primer appearance is like trying to make shrimp jambalaya out of tofu and spinach.
Now, the case itself can show signs of excessive pressure. One of the virtues of brass is that up to a certain pressure it remains flexible, returning near its original shape even after an instant of very high pressure. This is why brass is used in cartridge cases: The brass expands firmly against the chamber walls as the powder gas expands, sealing the chamber. But if subjected to “excessive” pressure, brass doesn’t spring back after firing. Instead it starts to flow.
The first sign of excessive pressure is a small imprint on the case head from the ejector slot hole in the bolt face. This can be misleading, however, especially in a new rifle, due to a little ridge left by machining around the
edge of the ejector hole. This ridge will eventually wear away with use, but initially it can leave a definite mark on brass even when firing factory ammunition. Today’s brass is often hard enough that signs of real distress
don’t appear until the pressure is over 70,000 psi, above the long term limit of modern rifle steels.
So even if your brass doesn’t show ejector-hole marks, it doesn’t mean the load is safe, no matter what your cousin Elrod claims.
One of the classic examples is the 7mm STW, originally developed as a wildcat. Many early users of the STW claimedthey could push 140-grain bullets3,500 to 3,600 fps without any traditional sign of excessive pressure – and they were right. But when the folks at Remington tested their loads, they found pressures of 70,000+ psi, the reason factory 7mm STW ballistics were toned down considerably.
Post by: TVHunts on April 22, 2018, 05:44:42 AM
John Barsness explains it better than I do.
Read the article beginning on page 68 here:
http://www.tulprpc.org/attachments/File/Load_Development_May_11.pdf
Or here's part of it:QuoteAnother common misconcep tion is that case separations are caused by excessive pressure. Well, no. Over the decades I’ve encountered a number of cartridge cases that were the victims of hot loads. Some had odd marks on the case head, while others had primer pockets large enough for two primers – though no trace of a primer was left in the hole. Yet none of these cases showed the shiny ring of stretching, and their bodies hadn’t cracked anywhere. Instead, case separations are caused by (you guessed it) excessive headspace. Now, often cases with a shiny ring in front of the case head, or actual cracks in the same area, also have flattened primers, supposedly a classic sign of high pressure. I hate to break the news, but flat primers aren’t necessarily an indication of high pressure, or even a very good sign.
The primer myth has been around long enough that Gen. Julian Hatcher warned against it way back in 1947, when his book Hatcher’s Notebook was first published. (This is one of the basic texts of rifles and ammunition, even today, and every serious shooter should own a copy.) Early in the chapter on headspace, Hatcher discusses wildcat cartridges: “Usually the originator of one of these cartridges had no facilities for taking pressures, and depended entirely on the notoriously unreliable [emphasis mine] method of judging pressures by the appearance of the primer.” But myths are much harder to kill than create, so some handloaders continue to believe they can divine pressure from a primer.
When a rifle cartridge goes off, the primer is pushed backward, due to powder gas pushing through the flash-hole, so it would seem to make sense that a really flat primer indicates high pressure. Not necessarily. A really flat primer can also be caused by slightly excessive headspace. When the firing pin hits the primer, it drives the case forward. If there’s a little slop between case and chamber, the expanding powder gas first
pushes the primer backward in the primer pocket. If the pressure is low enough, as with the .30-30
Winchester, the primers will remain slightly backed out of the fired brass. This is common in ancient and well-worn .30-30 lever actions.
If the pressure is higher, however, as with the .30-06, the rear of the primer itself expands a little as it backs out, since it’s no longer supported by the primer pocket. In another micro-second the case itself is thrust back over the slightly expanded primer. At the same time, the case stretches a little bit, so the handloader also finds a shiny ring a half-inch in front of the case head. Our innocent handloader now sees what he thinks are two signs of high pressure, when in reality the only problem is oversizing the case. Primer cups also vary in thickness and hardness not just from brand to brand, but lot to lot. Add tiny differences in headspace, and trying to “estimate” pressures from primer appearance is like trying to make shrimp jambalaya out of tofu and spinach.
Now, the case itself can show signs of excessive pressure. One of the virtues of brass is that up to a certain pressure it remains flexible, returning near its original shape even after an instant of very high pressure. This is why brass is used in cartridge cases: The brass expands firmly against the chamber walls as the powder gas expands, sealing the chamber. But if subjected to “excessive” pressure, brass doesn’t spring back after firing. Instead it starts to flow.
The first sign of excessive pressure is a small imprint on the case head from the ejector slot hole in the bolt face. This can be misleading, however, especially in a new rifle, due to a little ridge left by machining around the
edge of the ejector hole. This ridge will eventually wear away with use, but initially it can leave a definite mark on brass even when firing factory ammunition. Today’s brass is often hard enough that signs of real distress
don’t appear until the pressure is over 70,000 psi, above the long term limit of modern rifle steels.
So even if your brass doesn’t show ejector-hole marks, it doesn’t mean the load is safe, no matter what your cousin Elrod claims.
One of the classic examples is the 7mm STW, originally developed as a wildcat. Many early users of the STW claimedthey could push 140-grain bullets3,500 to 3,600 fps without any traditional sign of excessive pressure – and they were right. But when the folks at Remington tested their loads, they found pressures of 70,000+ psi, the reason factory 7mm STW ballistics were toned down considerably.
That was a good read Bobcat, thanks for posting that.
I agree with Blackpowderhunter, velocity is great if thats an accuracy node for your rifle. I don’t concern myself with velocity especially when a load is shooting well under MOA. I don’t believe I’ve ever ran a ladder test beyond max book load, I’ve never needed to so far without finding accuracy first.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 22, 2018, 07:45:16 AM
I was shooting a Ruger M77 MkII All Weather with milsurp brass.. IIRC, there were also people that were saying they were having similar success at 44 grains with the 165s.
Post by: Jolten on April 22, 2018, 09:11:37 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 23, 2018, 11:43:57 AM
Bolt lift, brass mark or over expansion, primer appearance etc. seem pretty reliable.
Post by: jasnt on April 23, 2018, 12:22:06 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 23, 2018, 12:57:27 PM
What you will find is that John Barsness recommends not relying on all the traditional signs of excessive pressure, as those things are not reliable indicators. If you see those pressure signs, you've often already gone way too far into dangerous territory.
According to him the best tool for a handloader in working up a load is a chronograph, and as I already said, you stop when you reach the max book charge, OR when you reach the max book velocity, whichever comes first.
Post by: hogslayer on April 23, 2018, 02:46:29 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 23, 2018, 03:09:38 PM
On my first facotry rifle I found best accuracy at 3 grains over book max. 1.5 grains under actual max. Brass lasted 8 firings before pockets got loose. My custom chamber is 7 grains over book max. Found pressure at 8.5 grains over book. I have also had tight barrels that hit pressure sooner. Some barrel companies such as Broughton are known for making faster barrels with there canted lands. Not trying to be a jerk, but you can believe what you have read, and I’ll believe what I have done.:yeah: spot on
Post by: theleo on April 23, 2018, 03:34:44 PM
On my first facotry rifle I found best accuracy at 3 grains over book max. 1.5 grains under actual max. Brass lasted 8 firings before pockets got loose. My custom chamber is 7 grains over book max. Found pressure at 8.5 grains over book. I have also had tight barrels that hit pressure sooner. Some barrel companies such as Broughton are known for making faster barrels with there canted lands. Not trying to be a jerk, but you can believe what you have read, and I’ll believe what I have done.And if you run them through a chrono you'd see velocity spiking as you approach max. PO Ackley also noted case design plays a large part in traditional pressure signs. Cartridges with a steep shoulder and minimal body taper start showing pressure signs later than rounds like the 30-06. Waiting for the traditional pressure signs is what leads guys to say their 280ai is just as fast as any 7mm Rem mag, they're not. They are just loading the 280ai to significantly higher pressures. The fact they're running loads to the same velocity as that of a cartridge with 13gr of additional powder capacity, is a good indicator of high pressures.
Post by: bobcat on April 23, 2018, 03:35:22 PM
Post by: theleo on April 23, 2018, 03:41:30 PM
More pressure equals more velocity. I'm no expert, I only go by what I read from people who have more experience and knowledge than I do. In this case, John Barsness. If you're interested do a search for something like "pressure and velocity Barsness."I agree relying on traditional signs usually means you're well beyond safe when they emerge, but more pressure does not always equal higher velocity. I can safely load a black powder vintage 45-90 with a 350gr bullets to around 1,400 fps without issue or I could easily load it to around 1,000fps and split the barrel using the same bullet.
What you will find is that John Barsness recommends not relying on all the traditional signs of excessive pressure, as those things are not reliable indicators. If you see those pressure signs, you've often already gone way too far into dangerous territory.
Post by: Curly on April 23, 2018, 03:45:08 PM
The problem with published load data is it rarely matches up with your particular OAL you may want or other particulars. So, it is hard to go by what a book may call max. But the books are good points of reference.
The bullet and powder manufacturers have tested the loads and published the info. If Alliant says they reached max SAAMI pressure and got X velocity at that pressure, then it really doesn't matter a whole lot what powder charge they got that velocity at, but you can be pretty sure that if you are exceeding that velocity with your loads then you are probably over SAAMI max pressure. A reloader would use the data as a starting point and work up loads over a chronograph. If no chronograph, then it probably would be prudent to stop at book max even if you aren't seeing the signs of over pressure like flattened primers and sticky bolt lift. :twocents: (Or you could just slowly work up until you get signs like flattened primers and sticky bolt, but just know by then you could be around 70,000 psi).
Post by: jasnt on April 23, 2018, 03:48:29 PM
While I disagree that speed is the best indicator of over preasure I do believe a chrono is a must have tool for reloading. Advanced reloading is not for everyone.....
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 23, 2018, 05:57:31 PM
Post by: yorketransport on April 24, 2018, 01:10:32 PM
My point is that a beginner with a 20-22” barrel shouldn’t be referencing book velocity taken with 26” custom barrels. And yeah ackley cases hide pressure signs but reloading ackley cases isn’t exactly beginner reloading
That's the most important part right there. Just because you don't see the pressure doesn't mean it's not there. :twocents:
Remember that max PSI specs have a lot to do with what the brass is rated to handle and not necessarily the firearm. Every manufacturer has a slightly different max yield strength which they'll use in their case head. One manufacturer's case may show traditional pressure signs at 120% of listed max PSI for the round while another may not show similar signs until 140% max PSI. This is why people will say that Hornady brass is "soft" or Lapua brass is "hard". If you load 120% max PSI in a Hornady case you may end up with ejector marks and a visibly flattened case head. The same 120% load in a Lapua case may not show the same signs, but it's still a 20% overload.
I don't have a problem with folks loading up beyond published max loads as long as they know what they're doing. I've spent a lot of time walking the line between over the top and reckless while working with a couple of wildcats. I've never damaged a gun or myself though because I'm very aware of actual pressure signs beyond primers and bolt lift. There's always a smarter way to do a stupid thing. :chuckle:
Post by: Jolten on April 24, 2018, 01:20:45 PM
My point is that a beginner with a 20-22” barrel shouldn’t be referencing book velocity taken with 26” custom barrels. And yeah ackley cases hide pressure signs but reloading ackley cases isn’t exactly beginner reloading
That's the most important part right there. Just because you don't see the pressure doesn't mean it's not there. :twocents:
Remember that max PSI specs have a lot to do with what the brass is rated to handle and not necessarily the firearm. Every manufacturer has a slightly different max yield strength which they'll use in their case head. One manufacturer's case may show traditional pressure signs at 120% of listed max PSI for the round while another may not show similar signs until 140% max PSI. This is why people will say that Hornady brass is "soft" or Lapua brass is "hard". If you load 120% max PSI in a Hornady case you may end up with ejector marks and a visibly flattened case head. The same 120% load in a Lapua case may not show the same signs, but it's still a 20% overload.
I don't have a problem with folks loading up beyond published max loads as long as they know what they're doing. I've spent a lot of time walking the line between over the top and reckless while working with a couple of wildcats. I've never damaged a gun or myself though because I'm very aware of actual pressure signs beyond primers and bolt lift. There's always a smarter way to do a stupid thing. :chuckle:
Which is why as a newbie I reached out to experts.
If I ever get around to having a badger build I'd love to have a learning session with you and bigger hammer
Post by: hunterofelk on April 25, 2018, 06:10:42 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 27, 2018, 12:59:09 AM
Post by: wooltie on April 27, 2018, 01:07:58 PM
I think, like people here have said, you have to watch for the pressure signs but also check your velocity to correlate pressure. I'm still problem solving this too. Gets frustrating at times.
Earlier this week I shot a load that grouped well (for four shots at least) and was running at 2800 FPS, which is near the top of book max. So I loaded up ten rounds and went to the range yesterday to further confirm the group. The results were frustrating--would group at all. So I used the chrono for the last five rounds and, while the extreme spread was only 16 fps, these five rounds were traveling 75-90 fps faster, which put the velocity higher than book.
Post by: Curly on April 27, 2018, 02:02:38 PM
Well then there's that whole idea about seating a bullet long e.g. closer to the lands to allow for a higher powder charge / velocity with less pressure. I'm referring to the Berger articles.
I think, like people here have said, you have to watch for the pressure signs but also check your velocity to correlate pressure. I'm still problem solving this too. Gets frustrating at times.
Earlier this week I shot a load that grouped well (for four shots at least) and was running at 2800 FPS, which is near the top of book max. So I loaded up ten rounds and went to the range yesterday to further confirm the group. The results were frustrating--would group at all. So I used the chrono for the last five rounds and, while the extreme spread was only 16 fps, these five rounds were traveling 75-90 fps faster, which put the velocity higher than book.
Yesterday was pretty warm out too......over 80 degrees here. That could explain higher velocity yesterday and change in your groups. :twocents:
Post by: h20hunter on April 27, 2018, 02:11:53 PM
Post by: jasnt on April 27, 2018, 02:21:11 PM
Post by: Jolten on April 27, 2018, 03:18:49 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 27, 2018, 03:50:16 PM
Is there a certain brand of chronograph I should be looking for? Seems like there's a lot more options than I anticipated.2 Choices - Magneto Speed very accurate attaches to your barrel. $179. Or new Labradar - accurate sits on your bench. $599 ( ouch)
Only problem with magneto speed is it can and will effect shots due to its tuning effect on barrel - especially if it slips around. But works fine up to the very last little tweaks when you might want to remove it.
The LabRadar is great but pricey.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 27, 2018, 03:55:11 PM
with so many good powders, great bullets, and nice brass why bother with getting that 50 fps more and pushing it.
This is good advice - shouldn't ignore it - I do but shouldn't.
Post by: wooltie on April 27, 2018, 04:06:09 PM
Is it obvious when a particular brass, powder, primer, bullet and charge weight isn't working with your rifle?
Suppose you shoot and chrono a ladder, spread over 2 grains in 0.3g increments e.g. 50-52 or 54-56. And you see a flat spot in velocity among three charge weights based upon the chrono data. So you repeat the test around those charges, perhaps several times, to confirm that velocities are relatively stable around those charges. Then you move onto shooting three shot groups at those 3, 4 or 5 charges. Suppose none of the charges group at all, or suppose that the smallest group you get at 100 yards measures 2"-3".
Is a 2"-3" group sufficiently 'tight' enough to start adjusting seating depth to shrink the group down to MOA (1" @ 100yds")?
Or, would you conclude that something needs to change e.g. type of powder, type of bullet, bullet weight?
Post by: jasnt on April 27, 2018, 04:38:03 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 27, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 27, 2018, 07:17:07 PM
FYI Here's Eric Cortina blogpost thats commonly followed. Its an awful lot of shooting but shows the extent that some goto to get their best load. I prefer a shorter process but I may be leaving the perfect load still on the bench.
Update: 9/17/14
Some of you have asked for more detailed instructions on how I do this. Here they are:
1. Find Jam by seating a bullet long on a dummy piece of brass (no primer nor powder) and apply die wax to the bullet ogive and record it's base to ogive length.
2. Chamber the round and close the bolt.
3. Snap the bolt open and measure the base to ogive measurement. If it is shorter than previous measurement, this is your jam. Do it a few times with different cases to make sure.
4. Load a known powder/primer/bullet combination. I load 4 of each powder charge in 0.5 gr. increments and seat bullets at jam - .020". I use one shot of each to get barrel fouled up and also keep an eye for max pressure at the same time. You can also use these rounds to break in a barrel if you are inclined to. If I encounter pressure on the hotter rounds, I will not shoot groups with the other loaded rounds and will pull bullets when I get back home. Do not shoot in round robin style because position and natural point of aim will be compromised.
5. Shoot 3 shot groups starting from lowest to highest. All groups are shot over a chronograph.
6. Examine target and find the place where consecutive groups line up vertically and ES is the lowest and speed increases the least from one group to the next.
7. Load to the middle of the powder node and do a seating depth test.
8. Load 3 shot groups starting from Jam - 0.005" all the way out to Jam - .040" in .003" increments.
9. When you find the seating depth test that shoots the best, load towards the longest side of the node to allow more room for throat erosion.
10. Final step is to load the new seating depth and load 5 shot groups in 0.1 gr. increments 0.5 gr. on each side of node (if pressure limits are not reached). This will cover an entire grain of powder and you will be able to pinpoint where the powder node starts and ends. In the summer, load towards the low end of the node, and do the opposite in the winter.
Post by: Jolten on April 27, 2018, 08:52:37 PM
Not to thread highjack, but as a newbie reloader I've been wondering this--
Is it obvious when a particular brass, powder, primer, bullet and charge weight isn't working with your rifle?
Suppose you shoot and chrono a ladder, spread over 2 grains in 0.3g increments e.g. 50-52 or 54-56. And you see a flat spot in velocity among three charge weights based upon the chrono data. So you repeat the test around those charges, perhaps several times, to confirm that velocities are relatively stable around those charges. Then you move onto shooting three shot groups at those 3, 4 or 5 charges. Suppose none of the charges group at all, or suppose that the smallest group you get at 100 yards measures 2"-3".
Is a 2"-3" group sufficiently 'tight' enough to start adjusting seating depth to shrink the group down to MOA (1" @ 100yds")?
Or, would you conclude that something needs to change e.g. type of powder, type of bullet, bullet weight?
Feel free to ask thread Jack. I don't mind at all. You may have a question I need an answer to later.
Btw still Loving the Savage 10t