Post by: mfswallace on May 09, 2018, 07:47:05 PM
An Open Letter From Hunters About Gun Reform
Daniel Ashe
Guest Writer
We are Republican, Democratic and independent. We come from the East, South, Midwest and West. We are conservative, progressive and liberal. We are men and women. We include eight members of the Circle of Chiefs, the highest conservation honor of the Outdoor Writers Association of America. We are all different in many ways, but we have important commonalities. We are Americans; we are gun owners; we are hunters; and we support responsible firearm regulation.
Yes, the Second Amendment conveys a right to “keep and bear” firearms. But rights come with responsibilities, and we all have a moral responsibility to address America’s crisis of gun violence.
We avoid the term ”common sense,” understanding the wisdom in Voltaire’s words ― “Common sense is not so common.”
Perhaps nature’s unpredictability, or the predictability that either our abilities or our equipment will fail at the most inopportune moment, have conditioned us to find solace in simplicity. We believe simple and responsible steps can and must be taken to end the cycle of gun violence and tragedy to which we are all witness in today’s America.
We do not need AR-15s or any assault-style weapon to hunt game.
We are at a turning point. There are now 265 million guns in private ownership — more than at any time in our nation’s history, and owned by a smaller proportion of the population than ever. Only about 30 percent of Americans own guns, and about 60 percent live in gun-free households. The long-term trend away from gun ownership will continue. As people who own and use guns respectfully, we feel an urgency to speak up for a simple, sensible approach.
Hunters and hunting are also declining. In 1955, 10 percent of Americans hunted. Today, it’s less than 5 percent. But the positive image of the hunter as a skilled and conscientious “sportsman” is being abused in defense of an out-of-control gun culture.
Most hunters own guns principally to hunt game. We use them safely and respectfully: If someone is injured during their use, it will most likely be a friend or family member, since that is who we hunt with. We don’t buy a lot of guns. We usually have a few favorites, often passed down to us by fathers or grandfathers. The gun industry figured that out decades ago, and switched to creating guns for a different market.
That’s not to say that all hunters are like-minded on the issue of regulating firearms. As our numbers have dwindled, many have found a comforting alliance with Second Amendment radicalism. But we believe this is not representative of most hunters, and certainly not the tradition of the hunter-sportsman.
We do not need AR-15s or any assault-style weapon to hunt game. That’s not to say some people won’t use them to hunt. But they are simply not necessary, and are actually not preferable for legitimate, fair-chase hunting.
We believe that simple, responsible reforms in firearm policy are an urgent necessity. Hunting and hunters should not be seen, or used, as a shield against constructive bipartisan solutions. We see the need and opportunity to frame compromise between the Second Amendment’s right to keep and bear arms and the Fifth Amendment’s right to life and liberty.
Here’s where we would begin:
1. An age minimum of 21 years to purchase any gun;
2. Anyone on the Terrorist Screening Center’s “no-fly list” may not purchase or possess firearms;
3. Anyone on Social Security disability due to mental illness may not purchase or possess firearms;
4. Prohibit new sales of semiautomatic assault or tactical-style weapons;
5. Prohibit new sales of semiautomatic shotguns or rifles (except .22-caliber rim fire) that can hold more than 10 rounds;
6. Prohibit any accessory designed or mechanical modification intended a) to increase the rate at which any firearm may be discharged; or b) to increase the magazine capacity of a semiautomatic rifle beyond 10 rounds (except .22-caliber rim fire);
7. Mandatory and universal background checks for all firearm sales;
8. Prohibit sales of firearms except through registered/licensed dealers (no direct private sales);
9. Enact gun violence restraining order authorities allowing courts to temporarily prohibit a person from purchasing or possessing firearms when a family member, community welfare expert or law enforcement officer presents evidence of a threat; and
10. Repeal the “Dickey ban” on scientific research in the area of gun violence and implement the Institute of Medicine’s 2013 gun violence research agenda.
These suggestions are simple to implement and enforce. They do limit the rights of honest and law-abiding citizens, but they are responsible limitations that do not infringe the ability of Americans to hunt, shoot, or protect themselves and their families. And in comparison to the 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School who have been stripped of all of their rights, and of life and liberty, it is a small price to pay.
There are simple, responsible solutions. No one should use hunters and hunting as an excuse to avoid pursuing them.
Daniel M. Ashe, former U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service director
Ted Williams, environmental journalist*
Paula Del Giudice, outdoor writer and hunter*
Mike Furtman, outdoor writer and photographer, hunter and former gun dealer*
Jim Low, former president of the Outdoor Writers Association of America and 13-time recipient of the Izaak Walton League’s Outdoor Ethics Communication Award*
Dr. Leonard Lee Rue III, wildlife photographer*
Brian Rutledge, conservation leader and naturalist
Scott Stouder, outdoor writer, conservationist and lifelong hunter*
Dr. Kris Thoemke, outdoor writer, conservationist and hunter*
Joel Vance, current member and former president of the Outdoor Writers Association of America*
George Harrison, retired nature journalist*
*Member of the Circle of Chiefs, the highest conservation honor of the Outdoor Writers Association of America
Post by: Dan-o on May 09, 2018, 07:56:44 PM
Post by: SCRUBS on May 09, 2018, 07:58:17 PM
"second amendment radicalism" :rolleyes:
I don`t agree with anything on that list. They don`t speak for me as a hunter & second amendment radicalist.... :chuckle:
Post by: Lucky1 on May 09, 2018, 08:01:44 PM
Post by: grundy53 on May 09, 2018, 08:03:57 PM
No.:yeah: I'm surprised Jim Zumbo didn't sign that....
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Post by: Bob33 on May 09, 2018, 08:32:53 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on May 09, 2018, 08:36:46 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on May 09, 2018, 08:36:53 PM
Post by: Badhabit on May 09, 2018, 08:38:00 PM
Post by: Special T on May 09, 2018, 08:43:00 PM
I'll keep my logic, inform my kids, and teach them the ignorance of the general populace.
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Post by: Jake Dogfish on May 09, 2018, 08:48:51 PM
Post by: Special T on May 09, 2018, 09:54:49 PM
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Post by: jagermiester on May 09, 2018, 10:33:57 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on May 09, 2018, 10:46:01 PM
This gives new meaning to the phrase "Fake News".
Post by: Seahawk12 on May 09, 2018, 10:48:44 PM
The 2nd amendment is not about defending ourselves from the tyranny of deer.
I'm against all limitations to law abiding Americans.
Post by: fish vacuum on May 09, 2018, 11:56:22 PM
That would be taking a constitutional right without due process. People mistakenly get put on the no-fly list all the time.
Post by: Bushcraft on May 10, 2018, 12:12:13 AM
Post by: Dysfunctional Vet on May 10, 2018, 05:59:00 AM
Wait until your 21 to own a firearm? But, you can sure as *censored* carry one into combat and die for this POS when your 18. Hell, 17 if your parents sign the paperwork.
Screw all this firearm restriction, just force everyone to join the military for 3 years and when you get out, here’s a free handgun. Hahaha
Post by: boneaddict on May 10, 2018, 06:31:08 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 10, 2018, 06:36:12 AM
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776
Post by: Fl0und3rz on May 10, 2018, 06:40:23 AM
No.
Not just no . . . .
That's cute.
The 2nd amendment is not about defending ourselves from the tyranny of deer.
:yeah:
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
― Samuel Adams
Post by: Jpmiller on May 10, 2018, 06:42:36 AM
If one more person says that we don't need AR15s for hunting, I'm going to lose my chit. Such ignorance of the Constitution and the intent behind the 2nd Amendment is the reason we have such unending assaults on our rights.
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776
I never understand the no ar for hunting either. Who cares about hunting? I have but one hunting rifle and a safe full of other long guns. None of my pistols are for hunting. Where anywhere does the second amendment concern hunting?
I hate pieces like this that are written as though they represent a group of people they clearly do not.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on May 10, 2018, 07:06:01 AM
I hate pieces like this that are written as though they represent a group of people they clearly do not.
:yeah:
The false missionary wolf in sheep's clothing is particularly detestable.
Post by: timberfaller on May 10, 2018, 07:08:56 AM
Why?
This quote, "We do not need AR-15s or any assault-style weapon to hunt game."
Liberal brainwashing 101!!!
Post by: LongBomb on May 10, 2018, 08:31:27 AM
Post by: Cougartail on May 10, 2018, 08:36:38 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 10, 2018, 08:56:09 AM
Makes me wanna go buy an ar with 30 round mag just to sit in my safe.
Every responsible gun owner/citizen should own one. Don't stop with just one mag, either. Cheaper by the half dozen. :tup:
Post by: Jpmiller on May 10, 2018, 01:04:11 PM
Makes me wanna go buy an ar with 30 round mag just to sit in my safe.
Every responsible gun owner/citizen should own one. Don't stop with just one mag, either. Cheaper by the half dozen. :tup:
I have shot ARs a few times but never really felt the need to own one.
More and more over the last few months I feel I really need to look into getting one before it's too late. They come in .308 right?
Post by: boneaddict on May 10, 2018, 01:05:57 PM
Makes me wanna go buy an ar with 30 round mag just to sit in my safe.
Honestly I have had the same thoughts.
Post by: hunter399 on May 10, 2018, 01:08:36 PM
Ya ,why not ,better get one while you can.Makes me wanna go buy an ar with 30 round mag just to sit in my safe.
Honestly I have had the same thoughts.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 10, 2018, 01:14:07 PM
Makes me wanna go buy an ar with 30 round mag just to sit in my safe.
Every responsible gun owner/citizen should own one. Don't stop with just one mag, either. Cheaper by the half dozen. :tup:
I have shot ARs a few times but never really felt the need to own one.
More and more over the last few months I feel I really need to look into getting one before it's too late. They come in .308 right?
AR10 for .308. Message Biggerhammer.
Post by: emac on May 10, 2018, 01:28:20 PM
And they are great hunting rifles
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Post by: Special T on May 10, 2018, 03:34:59 PM
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Post by: jagermiester on May 10, 2018, 04:52:51 PM
Thomas Jefferson said it best
Post by: smalldog on May 10, 2018, 05:40:23 PM
Post by: Alchase on May 10, 2018, 07:13:28 PM
You all better go buy one while you can. But trust me 1 turns into 2 than 3 and so on. Just a fair warning.
And they are great hunting rifles
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Yep they breed like rats in my safe :chuckle:
Post by: hunter399 on May 10, 2018, 07:21:43 PM
I've had some ar15 breeding in mine,along with rifles. :chuckle:You all better go buy one while you can. But trust me 1 turns into 2 than 3 and so on. Just a fair warning.
And they are great hunting rifles
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Yep they breed like rats in my safe :chuckle:
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on May 11, 2018, 10:14:50 AM
HP article :rolleyes: Just another propaganda piece...Same!
"second amendment radicalism" :rolleyes:
I don`t agree with anything on that list. They don`t speak for me as a hunter & second amendment radicalist.... :chuckle:
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on May 11, 2018, 10:18:22 AM
Makes me wanna go buy an ar with 30 round mag just to sit in my safe.I did. When your government says it is "common sense" that you don't need an AR-15, it is time to own one.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 11, 2018, 10:27:20 AM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on May 11, 2018, 10:29:14 AM
Post by: lokidog on May 13, 2018, 10:11:31 PM
80% lowers are cheap, buy uppers with cash, no trace.... :rolleyes:
Post by: predatorpro on May 13, 2018, 10:14:35 PM
I absolutely agree with you SeaHawk12 ! Hunting is not a right, it is a privilege. The 2nd Amendment was all about protecting ourselves against TYRANNY. In other words our government !Was hunting a right before government? Or did god require adam to have a hunting license?
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 14, 2018, 09:17:32 AM
I absolutely agree with you SeaHawk12 ! Hunting is not a right, it is a privilege. The 2nd Amendment was all about protecting ourselves against TYRANNY. In other words our government !Was hunting a right before government? Or did god require adam to have a hunting license?
Are you lamenting the introduction of regulations and licensing which have ensured abundant wildlife to hunt today? At one time, hunting was an absolute right. Anyone could hunt anything, anytime they felt like it, without restriction. As a result, most of the animals disappeared and regulation was later imposed to create our North American Conservation Model. Hunting is now a privilege. It could be made a constitutional right but unlike other constitutional rights, it would need restrictions to ensure good wildlife stewardship.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 14, 2018, 09:29:34 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on May 14, 2018, 09:38:49 AM
I do not equate hunting and gun ownership. I do think its time to figure out a way to keep people from shooting up crowds so effectively.
I also think there is major irony with groups that steadfastly support the Blue Lives matter and veterans causes and argue that we need guns to protect ourselves from the government. Who exactly do you think you'll be shooting at when the "government" comes?? Probably cops and military personnel....
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 14, 2018, 09:42:48 AM
I agree with 3, 6, 7, 9 and 10.
I do not equate hunting and gun ownership. I do think its time to figure out a way to keep people from shooting up crowds so effectively.
I also think there is major irony with groups that steadfastly support the Blue Lives matter and veterans causes and argue that we need guns to protect ourselves from the government. Who exactly do you think you'll be shooting at when the "government" comes?? Probably cops and military personnel....
If you take away the tool, they'll find another tool if they want to kill large numbers of people. Some use trucks, some use their families. There's no way to stop someone bent on killing a large number of people. But there is an existing way to end their rampage - armed citizens.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/13/asia/indonesia-attacks-surabaya-intl/index.html
Post by: Fl0und3rz on May 14, 2018, 09:54:54 AM
I do think its time to figure out a way to keep people from shooting up crowds so effectively.
Understanding the problem is the first step. If we continue to treat such shooting the same as terror, as gang violence, as murders or attempted murders coincident with other crimes, then we will never be able to adequately address the problem. It seems we are starting to make headway here.
Otherwise, without solid, no-BS, no ulterior motive, failure mode analysis in the wake of such shootings, we are doomed to repeat them. For instance, Parkland was a massive LE failure top to bottom, brought on by a touchy-feely bureaucratic decision to not prosecute law breaking in order to pad the stats for diversity sake (Promise program). It was a systematic failure that deserves to be widely and resoundingly demonized as wrong-headed and directly and foreseeably linked to the Parkland murders, such that we do not continue such policies and repeat the same costly mistakes.
Are we? I haven't seen enough publicity or movement on the same.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 14, 2018, 09:57:09 AM
I agree with 3, 6, 7, 9 and 10.The problem with this thought is simple,"PROBABLY COPS AND MILITARY" But from what country?This has been openly brought up by some in Gov. in the recent past.It makes a very valid argument for the 2nd. which has also been openly brought up in the very recent past.
I do not equate hunting and gun ownership. I do think its time to figure out a way to keep people from shooting up crowds so effectively.
I also think there is major irony with groups that steadfastly support the Blue Lives matter and veterans causes and argue that we need guns to protect ourselves from the government. Who exactly do you think you'll be shooting at when the "government" comes?? Probably cops and military personnel....
Post by: Oh Mah on May 14, 2018, 09:58:45 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on May 14, 2018, 12:23:07 PM
I agree with most of that. Guns are just to tool, there are other ways for people bent on killing to get the job done. So what is the problem? Mass shooters tend to fit into a category- middle class white male; here is an entire forum dominated by that group- we should be able to pinpoint the issue right???I do think its time to figure out a way to keep people from shooting up crowds so effectively.
Understanding the problem is the first step. If we continue to treat such shooting the same as terror, as gang violence, as murders or attempted murders coincident with other crimes, then we will never be able to adequately address the problem. It seems we are starting to make headway here.
Otherwise, without solid, no-BS, no ulterior motive, failure mode analysis in the wake of such shootings, we are doomed to repeat them. For instance, Parkland was a massive LE failure top to bottom, brought on by a touchy-feely bureaucratic decision to not prosecute law breaking in order to pad the stats for diversity sake (Promise program). It was a systematic failure that deserves to be widely and resoundingly demonized as wrong-headed and directly and foreseeably linked to the Parkland murders, such that we do not continue such policies and repeat the same costly mistakes.
Are we? I haven't seen enough publicity or movement on the same.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-fight-against-hate/201802/mass-shootings-what-role-do-guns-play
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 14, 2018, 12:38:42 PM
The politicians have been pointing their fingers at the tools for so long, the obvious solutions and preventative measures are being completely ignored.
Post by: Special T on May 14, 2018, 01:10:18 PM
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Post by: Fl0und3rz on May 14, 2018, 01:10:54 PM
I agree with most of that. Guns are just to tool, there are other ways for people bent on killing to get the job done. So what is the problem? Mass shooters tend to fit into a category- middle class white male; here is an entire forum dominated by that group- we should be able to pinpoint the issue right???I do think its time to figure out a way to keep people from shooting up crowds so effectively.
Understanding the problem is the first step. If we continue to treat such shooting the same as terror, as gang violence, as murders or attempted murders coincident with other crimes, then we will never be able to adequately address the problem. It seems we are starting to make headway here.
Otherwise, without solid, no-BS, no ulterior motive, failure mode analysis in the wake of such shootings, we are doomed to repeat them. For instance, Parkland was a massive LE failure top to bottom, brought on by a touchy-feely bureaucratic decision to not prosecute law breaking in order to pad the stats for diversity sake (Promise program). It was a systematic failure that deserves to be widely and resoundingly demonized as wrong-headed and directly and foreseeably linked to the Parkland murders, such that we do not continue such policies and repeat the same costly mistakes.
Are we? I haven't seen enough publicity or movement on the same.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-fight-against-hate/201802/mass-shootings-what-role-do-guns-play
I forget where I put it in off-topics, but there was a post about specifically studying mass shooters as uniquely motivated individuals (not gang, terror, etc.) to determine their causes. Until recently, the data had been aggregated with other murders to pad the stats for obvious political reasons. It appears this part is changing.
Since Columbine, it appears that being social outcast is one common link. Another is prescribed meds. Another is lack of father/family or loneliness.
I'll try and find some of those links.
Post by: DaveMonti on May 14, 2018, 01:31:23 PM
I do think its time to figure out a way to keep people from shooting up crowds so effectively.
Understanding the problem is the first step. If we continue to treat such shooting the same as terror, as gang violence, as murders or attempted murders coincident with other crimes, then we will never be able to adequately address the problem. It seems we are starting to make headway here.
Otherwise, without solid, no-BS, no ulterior motive, failure mode analysis in the wake of such shootings, we are doomed to repeat them. For instance, Parkland was a massive LE failure top to bottom, brought on by a touchy-feely bureaucratic decision to not prosecute law breaking in order to pad the stats for diversity sake (Promise program). It was a systematic failure that deserves to be widely and resoundingly demonized as wrong-headed and directly and foreseeably linked to the Parkland murders, such that we do not continue such policies and repeat the same costly mistakes.
Are we? I haven't seen enough publicity or movement on the same.
As someone who frequently conducts structured failure mode analysis using proven RCA techniques, I'm curious to where the report is for the RCA of the Parkland incident is that shows the failure modes you state immediately following your statement, especially the one that says one of the causes is the "touchy-feely bureaucratic decision" and statistic padding.
Post by: optic2 on May 14, 2018, 02:58:26 PM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on May 14, 2018, 03:05:34 PM
Otherwise, without solid, no-BS, no ulterior motive, failure mode analysis in the wake of such shootings, we are doomed to repeat them. For instance, Parkland was a massive LE failure top to bottom, brought on by a touchy-feely bureaucratic decision to not prosecute law breaking in order to pad the stats for diversity sake (Promise program). It was a systematic failure that deserves to be widely and resoundingly demonized as wrong-headed and directly and foreseeably linked to the Parkland murders, such that we do not continue such policies and repeat the same costly mistakes.
Are we? I haven't seen enough publicity or movement on the same.
As someone who frequently conducts structured failure mode analysis using proven RCA techniques, I'm curious to where the report is for the RCA of the Parkland incident is that shows the failure modes you state immediately following your statement, especially the one that says one of the causes is the "touchy-feely bureaucratic decision" and statistic padding.
There is not one, which is my point.
So we are left with our own opinions based on available facts as to causes and possibilities of preventing the shooting at the various stages of Cruz' descent to mass murder.
If you have particular opinions you wish to discuss, regarding the known facts and/or the reasonableness of that opinion, I would gladly have that in off topics in the Florida shooter thread. You should be aware of the Obama DOJ Promise program (and its goals), the desired and actual effect it had generally on the stats for Broward, the effect that it had on the culture of LE regarding formerly enforced criminal acts, generally, and regarding Cruz, specifically, and the final LE failures that lead to the predictable, IMO, final act that resulted from the continued and desired failure of LE to enforce the law.