Hunting Washington Forum
Other Hunting => Waterfowl => Topic started by: hunterednate on May 24, 2018, 01:31:16 PM
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Was looking at an old thread today ("RE: Did the migration already happen?") (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,222698.msg2963087.html#msg2963087) and I came across this comment from Guzman:
"Every year there are more and more ducks that sit on private areas. Corn ponds have changed migrations."
Didn't want to hijack the thread so I thought I'd start a new one. Has anyone else observed this same thing happening? Corn ponds apparently sucking birds away from their usual migration/feeding/roosting habits?
I know that I've observed a slow but steady decline in a traditionally productive public hunting area adjacent to a large outfitter's lease that is filled with flooded corn ponds - despite historically high numbers of mallards in pre-season surveys the last four years.. Every year more and more impoundments are built and planted with corn, with ice-eaters to keep them open during the freeze and mojo's running on non-hunting days to attract passing flocks, and every year the public area has held fewer birds for shorter periods of time.
Anyone else observed the same sort of thing happening? Just curious to see if Guzman and I are the only ones who've noticed it. Also curious if anyone knows of any legislation to control/restrict private corn pond hunting that has been effective in other states or provinces.
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I have noticed this for sure. Its just the way of the world. It has been going on for decades, just now with the additional money and people in our state it has become more prevalent. I don't think there is any legislation that will "fix" it. If I had the money to turn my land into a duck magnet I would too.
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The more corn I plant, the more ducks I kill off our property. Also, when the ducks bump off our property, they fly around the public land adjacent to our private land and offer guys hunting there shots. It's a win-win. Lots of WDFW land out there that has corn planted on it as well.
And you'd be willing to support controlling what someone else does on their property so you might be able to shoot some more ducks?
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Yeah, cougforester, I'm just not sure how it's too much different than baiting in terms of the end result, which is already restricted on public and private land.
Longterm, I'd certainly be in favor of restricting any private land practice that reduces hunter success on public land. As urbanization increases, quality public hunting opportunity is the only thing that will keep our sport alive.
Plus, it's always an issue of "haves" and "have-nots." If I owned a piece of private property, I'd probably do tons of stuff to make it more attractive to ducks (including planting crops and flooding them). Since I don't, I'm naturally more in favor of restricting those practices to increase the productivity of public land hunting.
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Yeah, cougforester, I'm just not sure how it's too much different than baiting in terms of the end result, which is already restricted on public and private land.
Longterm, I'd certainly be in favor of restricting any private land practice that reduces hunter success on public land. As urbanization increases, quality public hunting opportunity is the only thing that will keep our sport alive.
Plus, it's always an issue of "haves" and "have-nots." If I owned a piece of private property, I'd probably do tons of stuff to make it more attractive to ducks (including planting crops and flooding them). Since I don't, I'm naturally more in favor of restricting those practices to increase the productivity of public land hunting.
I agree, I can't blame the guys like coug for doing it because I sure as heck would if I could but I can also see the side of battling the public land battle because that is what I live every duck season.
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Yeah, cougforester, I'm just not sure how it's too much different than baiting in terms of the end result, which is already restricted on public and private land.
Longterm, I'd certainly be in favor of restricting any private land practice that reduces hunter success on public land. As urbanization increases, quality public hunting opportunity is the only thing that will keep our sport alive.
Plus, it's always an issue of "haves" and "have-nots." If I owned a piece of private property, I'd probably do tons of stuff to make it more attractive to ducks (including planting crops and flooding them). Since I don't, I'm naturally more in favor of restricting those practices to increase the productivity of public land hunting.
Planting corn is not baiting. There are very specific actions that have to be taken to make it baiting. And sure, I get jealous of ranches and private land that some people have access to for elk and deer, but I choose to scout and hunt harder on public land to make up for it. I just don't decry those that have the ability to access that land, nor would I want to limit their ability to improve their private property for wildlife or any other opportunity because I don't have what they have.
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Planting corn on your land and creating flooded corn ponds have two very different results... Ducks will eat out cut corn and move from field to field. This created movement and distribution of the birds.... With unlimited money and resources you can now create flooded corn ponds and artificially manipulate the water to make them last longer.. Also you can create ponds that you don't flood until your other pond or ponds is eaten out..As you make money you can create more and more of these places until you have enough to hold a entire zones majority of birds.. It's legalized baiting and it is manipulation to attract the birds... It's gotten so big that's it's affecting migrations the distribution of a public resource.
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. It's about at what point do you limit the ability of a limited few to control the resources... The money that is being made when 30 limits are being shot a day adds up. So the money is reinvested and to what end to the point that no more land exists that can hold a flooded corn ponds... So now the few small public spots compete with 10,000 corn ponds.. The public land can't compete with that... Yes you change your methods and tactics but it's not like it was....
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The corn complexes and flooded corn around Othello have changed the flyway. That said, the guys that are members or the owners typically have large investments into their property to make them duck magnets. If I had $100k to spend I'd be in one or own one that's for sure. I hunt public land and it does get old getting to a gate at Midnight to get a blind. Last weekend of the season it was camping out in the dunes at the Potholes. The sacrfice paid off though. The blind shot over 300 ducks in the last week.
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Yeah, cougforester, I'm just not sure how it's too much different than baiting in terms of the end result, which is already restricted on public and private land.
Longterm, I'd certainly be in favor of restricting any private land practice that reduces hunter success on public land. As urbanization increases, quality public hunting opportunity is the only thing that will keep our sport alive.
Plus, it's always an issue of "haves" and "have-nots." If I owned a piece of private property, I'd probably do tons of stuff to make it more attractive to ducks (including planting crops and flooding them). Since I don't, I'm naturally more in favor of restricting those practices to increase the productivity of public land hunting.
Planting corn is not baiting. There are very specific actions that have to be taken to make it baiting. And sure, I get jealous of ranches and private land that some people have access to for elk and deer, but I choose to scout and hunt harder on public land to make up for it. I just don't decry those that have the ability to access that land, nor would I want to limit their ability to improve their private property for wildlife or any other opportunity because I don't have what they have.
I don't think it's about jealous... It's about at what point do you limit the ability of a limited few to control the resources... The money that is being made when 30 limits are being shot a day adds up. So the money is reinvested and to what end to the point that no more land exists that can hold a flooded corn ponds... So now the few small public spots compete with 10,000 corn ponds.. The public land can't compete with that... Yes you change your methods and tactics but it's not like it was....
I guess I should say that my family has 60 acres. And I'm under an NRCS easement to not plant more than 5% of that in crops. So we've experimented with millet, smartweed and corn. Corn is king. My dad and I spend well over 150 hours a summer per person mowing, planting, and weedwhacking and have my buddies help with labor in exchange for hunting permission. That's all the people we have hunt it. :dunno:
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I'm not a fan of corn ponds. I view it as shooting ducks, not hunting them. I do believe it has altered migratory patterns and diminished public land opportunity. That being said, plenty of ducks still hit dry stubble and opporunity can be had through that. Its not against the rules so we just have to deal with it. :twocents:
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Yeah, cougforester, I'm just not sure how it's too much different than baiting in terms of the end result, which is already restricted on public and private land.
Longterm, I'd certainly be in favor of restricting any private land practice that reduces hunter success on public land. As urbanization increases, quality public hunting opportunity is the only thing that will keep our sport alive.
Plus, it's always an issue of "haves" and "have-nots." If I owned a piece of private property, I'd probably do tons of stuff to make it more attractive to ducks (including planting crops and flooding them). Since I don't, I'm naturally more in favor of restricting those practices to increase the productivity of public land hunting.
Planting corn is not baiting. There are very specific actions that have to be taken to make it baiting. And sure, I get jealous of ranches and private land that some people have access to for elk and deer, but I choose to scout and hunt harder on public land to make up for it. I just don't decry those that have the ability to access that land, nor would I want to limit their ability to improve their private property for wildlife or any other opportunity because I don't have what they have.
Yeah, because elk and deer fly out of their roosting spot in the middle of the river/lake that is unhuntable, fly in the air over the public land, which is unhuntable (in the actual air) and land in the flooded bait ponds to feed.
Let me know one piece of corn a human eats that is harvested out of a flooded corn pond. Show me the human consumption agriculture practice that happens to produce this single piece of corn we eat, or that cows eat. I think I have seen a silage field cut with the props of an air boat, heck, that's a normal practice.
Flooded corn is baiting. Might be legal in the money driven fed language, but it is still baiting.
And I would do it all day long if I have the land and money :tup:
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Paul's Pond in the Burbank area is a well managed pond and his food source is barley. Or is was in the past when I hunted it. He's managed (to the best of my knowledge) to avoid baiting violations. A few years ago I think it was all checked out by the Feds and was not cited. The best attractant is the pond does not freeze. He does not bust the roost. He goes into the pond about an hour or so after daylight and then slowly approaches the blinds. The duck get up and leave but they were not run off. They come back in small groups, which is what they want. They won't let your educate large flocks. They frown on 3" shells in the duck blind as well. I don't think Paul's Pond has an effect on the migratory pattern in the area. Just his little honey hole.
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There is fewer ducks migrating into the Columbia Basin. The corn ponds have an effect for sure but its minimal. There was a guide last year on the Columbia river shooting client limits and the public hunt areas were very productive.
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. It's about at what point do you limit the ability of a limited few to control the resources... The money that is being made when 30 limits are being shot a day adds up. So the money is reinvested and to what end to the point that no more land exists that can hold a flooded corn ponds... So now the few small public spots compete with 10,000 corn ponds.. The public land can't compete with that... Yes you change your methods and tactics but it's not like it was....
Couldn't have said it better, and I wholeheartedly agree. Cougforester, it sounds like your situation is very different than what DRK9988 is describing. Your 60 acre spot isn't changing a migration pattern - but the massive flooded corn complexes in the lower Columbia Basin most certainly are.
And while they aren't "baiting" by the definition of the law, my suggestion is that perhaps it's time to change the definition of baiting to include crops produced and flooded for the express purpose of attracting waterfowl for the purpose of hunting. Doing so seems like it could improve public land hunting and increase hunter recruitment (and even more important, hunter retention). If even dedicated duck hunters like Badhabit are getting sick of the midnight campouts on public land - how many more casual duck hunters have decided not to buy a license this year because things "ain't the way they used to be?"
My guess is that within a decade, declining license buyers will force state wildlife agencies to address this issue through legislation. And my hope is that they do it sooner rather than later.
Has anyone heard any talk among state or federal wildlife officials about banning/restricting this practice?
What percentage of hunters actually hunt over flooded crops?
Is it worth it to restrict a practice used by - say 20% - of duck hunters in order to improve hunting for the other 80%?
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There is fewer ducks migrating into the Columbia Basin. The corn ponds have an effect for sure but its minimal. There was a guide last year on the Columbia river shooting client limits and the public hunt areas were very productive.
I don't agree that there are fewer ducks migrating in to the Basin each year. I think you just don't see them like we all used to because they have learned to use the corn complexes and no longer travel the same routes they once did. I also think the presence of 10's of thousands of snow geese that never used the Basin until recent years indicates that it is still a very viable and even improving wintering area for the birds.
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There is fewer ducks migrating into the Columbia Basin. The corn ponds have an effect for sure but its minimal. There was a guide last year on the Columbia river shooting client limits and the public hunt areas were very productive.
I don't agree that there are fewer ducks migrating in to the Basin each year. I think you just don't see them like we all used to because they have learned to use the corn complexes and no longer travel the same routes they once did. I also think the presence of 10's of thousands of snow geese that never used the Basin until recent years indicates that it is still a very viable and even improving wintering area for the birds.
Great point. Change of flight path is a killer for public hunters hoping to pull off enough birds from passing flocks to shoot a limit. If you don't see them...they won't see you.
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If you were to regulate the planting for ducks, where does it stop. Are you going to say that you can't plant a food plot for deer or elk because all the big ones are now on private property. I have land and plant for ducks and Flood my corn and kill the hell out of them. If you can afford it go for it. It just sounds like crazy everyone's a winner mentality. I suppose since I'm a better caller than most and pull birds away from others set ups when I hunt public I should put my calls away and wait till everyone has shot their fair share.
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There is fewer ducks migrating into the Columbia Basin. The corn ponds have an effect for sure but its minimal. There was a guide last year on the Columbia river shooting client limits and the public hunt areas were very productive.
I don’t think you realize the effects of the corn ponds or enhanced private natural wetlands in the area. Just one corn complex I have hunted in Royal City will have over 20k birds in it when we walk in. Not counting the adjacent clubs next door. The birds will drop in from the blue and vortex down in many cases. The private clubs probably hold over a 100k Birds in that area alone.
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Also as the birds learn these habits and the numbers of birds killed on public drops the price of the private flooded corn seats go up. As the seats go up in price people pay 275-350 to kill seven ducks just giving the flooded corn operation more capital to create more flooded corn ponds.. Look at the different guide operations they are making more flooded corn ponds every summer adding warm well water to the others.... It's a vicious cycle... When does it end?
Also when ducks feed in cut corn that is dry they stuff themselves and then have to find water many times causing them to fly over public land and or use public water. Since flooded corn ponds have existed this practice has become way less because the ducks get the water and the feed in the same location. They water and feed in one spot and seek refuge in another... It takes an entire leg of a daily journey out... This finding the closest water portion of the ducks day makes them vulnerable to hunters on public waters.
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Also as the birds learn these habits and the numbers of birds killed on public drops the price of the private flooded corn seats go up. As the seats go up in price people pay 275-350 to kill seven ducks just giving the flooded corn operation more capital to create more flooded corn ponds.. Look at the different guide operations they are making more flooded corn ponds every summer adding warm well water to the others.... It's a vicious cycle... When does it end?
It won’t end. It’s going to get worse. Lots of money flowing up my way for leases and lots of ground getting purchased for duck spots. Seeing more and more 10-30 acre corn plots all around. Some much larger. Most leases are going from $5,500 to $12,000 per season for good ones.
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Also as the birds learn these habits and the numbers of birds killed on public drops the price of the private flooded corn seats go up. As the seats go up in price people pay 275-350 to kill seven ducks just giving the flooded corn operation more capital to create more flooded corn ponds.. Look at the different guide operations they are making more flooded corn ponds every summer adding warm well water to the others.... It's a vicious cycle... When does it end?
It won’t end. It’s going to get worse. Lots of money flowing up my way for leases and lots of ground getting purchased for duck spots. Seeing more and more 10-30 acre corn plots all around. Some much larger. Most leases are going from $5,500 to $12,000 per season for good ones.
It's a vicious cycle... As long as artificial manipulation of water to flood corn/crop is legal it is just gonna get worse. It has been fun to adapt and find ways to kill ducks in this environment but where does it end every year as corn ponds are expanded it gets exponentially worse. My gripe is the possibility of a landowner controlling the majority of a public resource is a very real possibility... It is supply and demand. Good hunting still exists in this state but it could be way better.
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The numbers are definitely down on public land in the area around Royal City. We have a seen a decline for the last 15 years. Less and less birds on royal lake. The ducks used to come out of the refuge for almost an hour, now we are lucky to see 10 minutes of flight. Corn ponds are certainly part of the change in pattern and so are the apple orchards. The amount of quality feed fields on the Royal Slope are half of what they were 15 years ago and more apples get planted every year. WDFW does an aerial count of waterfowl, I found it referenced in the spokane newspaper. Does anyone know if they seperate birds seen on public vs private land? Goose patterns have changed as well.
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The numbers are definitely down on public land in the area around Royal City. We have a seen a decline for the last 15 years. Less and less birds on royal lake. The ducks used to come out of the refuge for almost an hour, now we are lucky to see 10 minutes of flight. Corn ponds are certainly part of the change in pattern and so are the apple orchards. The amount of quality feed fields on the Royal Slope are half of what they were 15 years ago and more apples get planted every year. WDFW does an aerial count of waterfowl, I found it referenced in the spokane newspaper. Does anyone know if they seperate birds seen on public vs private land? Goose patterns have changed as well.
Yeah, I'd really be interested in seeing some hard science on this, too. Anecdotal/observational reports from hunters seem to confirm that corn ponds have reduced public hunting opportunity. Does anyone know if any in-season studies/surveys can confirm this with concrete data?
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If you were to regulate the planting for ducks, where does it stop. Are you going to say that you can't plant a food plot for deer or elk because all the big ones are now on private property. I have land and plant for ducks and Flood my corn and kill the hell out of them. If you can afford it go for it. It just sounds like crazy everyone's a winner mentality. I suppose since I'm a better caller than most and pull birds away from others set ups when I hunt public I should put my calls away and wait till everyone has shot their fair share.
You're right that hunting will never be "fair" in the sense of everyone having equal skills/gear/etc. My hope is that reducing the number of flooded corn ponds on private land would increase the numbers of ducks using public areas...and hopefully you'd still find a way to kill some birds on your property without the flooded corn, too.
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The numbers are definitely down on public land in the area around Royal City. We have a seen a decline for the last 15 years. Less and less birds on royal lake. The ducks used to come out of the refuge for almost an hour, now we are lucky to see 10 minutes of flight. Corn ponds are certainly part of the change in pattern and so are the apple orchards. The amount of quality feed fields on the Royal Slope are half of what they were 15 years ago and more apples get planted every year. WDFW does an aerial count of waterfowl, I found it referenced in the spokane newspaper. Does anyone know if they seperate birds seen on public vs private land? Goose patterns have changed as well.
Yes, they do break it down. I was shown the report and tried to find it again, but was unable to. They had it broke down per different spots and clubs. The clubs were holding a high percentage of the birds.
I saw that Eagle Lakes were making several new corn ponds this season as well. I when you see them on certain days shooting 35-40 limits of birds in a few hours, you know they are holding a few birds. That hole triangle holds a lot of birds.
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If you were to regulate the planting for ducks, where does it stop. Are you going to say that you can't plant a food plot for deer or elk because all the big ones are now on private property. I have land and plant for ducks and Flood my corn and kill the hell out of them. If you can afford it go for it. It just sounds like crazy everyone's a winner mentality. I suppose since I'm a better caller than most and pull birds away from others set ups when I hunt public I should put my calls away and wait till everyone has shot their fair share.
The big difference is that birds can fly so they can bounce around and never actually touch public areas. Deer and elk on private property, if disturbed can't exactly set sail over public land to their next private property sign.
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If you were to regulate the planting for ducks, where does it stop. Are you going to say that you can't plant a food plot for deer or elk because all the big ones are now on private property. I have land and plant for ducks and Flood my corn and kill the hell out of them. If you can afford it go for it. It just sounds like crazy everyone's a winner mentality. I suppose since I'm a better caller than most and pull birds away from others set ups when I hunt public I should put my calls away and wait till everyone has shot their fair share.
You're right that hunting will never be "fair" in the sense of everyone having equal skills/gear/etc. My hope is that reducing the number of flooded corn ponds on private land would increase the numbers of ducks using public areas...and hopefully you'd still find a way to kill some birds on your property without the flooded corn, too.
If you took the feed and corn ponds out of the picture, it would level the field significantly. Many spots just wouldn't hold birds without feed. Some have done it right with good wetland investments, so birds will come without the $30k-$100K crop investments. I think the game department weighs the outcome. Food for birds, the state doesn't have to pay for vs. loss of habitat and potential agriculture depredation to farmers, etc. Many high end clubs only hunt them for a short period per day. Feeding thousands of birds vs a small percentage harvested? The birds benefit. All the clubs in Washington short stop a lot of birds heading south on the Pacific Flyway. Lots of California clubs have been effected by this amongst other things. California used to be or may still be the #1 harvester of waterfowl in the US.
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I'm not a fan of corn ponds either. There is no way they don't pull birds off of natural areas they used to use but like h2o said the state and many other agencies love them. It's free food for the birds. Even when Eagle Lakes shoot 40 limits a day they are still feeding way more birds than they are harvesting. With agencies like DU backing private land owners more than natural habit it makes it even harder to complete. The true result of this is ducks win, rich duck hunters win and public land hunters lose.
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If you were to regulate the planting for ducks, where does it stop. Are you going to say that you can't plant a food plot for deer or elk because all the big ones are now on private property. I have land and plant for ducks and Flood my corn and kill the hell out of them. If you can afford it go for it. It just sounds like crazy everyone's a winner mentality. I suppose since I'm a better caller than most and pull birds away from others set ups when I hunt public I should put my calls away and wait till everyone has shot their fair share.
You're right that hunting will never be "fair" in the sense of everyone having equal skills/gear/etc. My hope is that reducing the number of flooded corn ponds on private land would increase the numbers of ducks using public areas...and hopefully you'd still find a way to kill some birds on your property without the flooded corn, too.
If you took the feed and corn ponds out of the picture, it would level the field significantly. Many spots just wouldn't hold birds without feed. Some have done it right with good wetland investments, so birds will come without the $30k-$100K crop investments. I think the game department weighs the outcome. Food for birds, the state doesn't have to pay for vs. loss of habitat and potential agriculture depredation to farmers, etc. Many high end clubs only hunt them for a short period per day. Feeding thousands of birds vs a small percentage harvested? The birds benefit. All the clubs in Washington short stop a lot of birds heading south on the Pacific Flyway. Lots of California clubs have been effected by this amongst other things. California used to be or may still be the #1 harvester of waterfowl in the US.
Wow - I hadn't thought of the economics of it from that perspective before. However, could the state be reaping a short term benefit (cheap feeding of birds) while sacrificing long term economic benefit (the loss of overall hunter numbers/license sales due to decreased public land hunting success)? Longterm, the best thing for the birds AND the state is to retain and recruit hunters. You won't do that without increasing quality public hunting opportunity.
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I want to be the Devil's advocate. Since when did the WDFW care about increasing the quality of public waterfowl hunting? IMO they've taken away more public land than they've added. A couple of them come to mind. League Island, Gray's Harbor. Breaching the dikes for salmon smolt habitat. I don't think the WDFW has replaced these area they removed. If I understand correctly they are required to do if Duck Stamp monies were used in the initial acquisition of the properties.
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I want to be the Devil's advocate. Since when did the WDFW care about increasing the quality of public waterfowl hunting? IMO they've taken away more public land than they've added. A couple of them come to mind. League Island, Gray's Harbor. Breaching the dikes for salmon smolt habitat. I don't think the WDFW has replaced these area they removed. If I understand correctly they are required to do if Duck Stamp monies were used in the initial acquisition of the properties.
The only way WDFW will give a darn is when they start losing actual revenue because of it. Until then its business as usual. :twocents:
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I want to be the Devil's advocate. Since when did the WDFW care about increasing the quality of public waterfowl hunting? IMO they've taken away more public land than they've added. A couple of them come to mind. League Island, Gray's Harbor. Breaching the dikes for salmon smolt habitat. I don't think the WDFW has replaced these area they removed. If I understand correctly they are required to do if Duck Stamp monies were used in the initial acquisition of the properties.
The only way WDFW will give a darn is when they start losing actual revenue because of it. Until then its business as usual. :twocents:
Yep, I agree. And they are. Duck hunter numbers are trending down, and the most common complain is lack of access to quality hunting opportunity. Hunting license revenue will go down significantly in coming years. They can always increase the price to compensate, but again, that will probably hurt revenue long-term. Restricting flooded corn on private land will re-distribute birds and provide better opportunity on existing public lands...and happier/more hunters!
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If you were to regulate the planting for ducks, where does it stop. Are you going to say that you can't plant a food plot for deer or elk because all the big ones are now on private property. I have land and plant for ducks and Flood my corn and kill the hell out of them. If you can afford it go for it. It just sounds like crazy everyone's a winner mentality. I suppose since I'm a better caller than most and pull birds away from others set ups when I hunt public I should put my calls away and wait till everyone has shot their fair share.
You're right that hunting will never be "fair" in the sense of everyone having equal skills/gear/etc. My hope is that reducing the number of flooded corn ponds on private land would increase the numbers of ducks using public areas...and hopefully you'd still find a way to kill some birds on your property without the flooded corn, too.
If you took the feed and corn ponds out of the picture, it would level the field significantly. Many spots just wouldn't hold birds without feed. Some have done it right with good wetland investments, so birds will come without the $30k-$100K crop investments. I think the game department weighs the outcome. Food for birds, the state doesn't have to pay for vs. loss of habitat and potential agriculture depredation to farmers, etc. Many high end clubs only hunt them for a short period per day. Feeding thousands of birds vs a small percentage harvested? The birds benefit. All the clubs in Washington short stop a lot of birds heading south on the Pacific Flyway. Lots of California clubs have been effected by this amongst other things. California used to be or may still be the #1 harvester of waterfowl in the US.
Wow - I hadn't thought of the economics of it from that perspective before. However, could the state be reaping a short term benefit (cheap feeding of birds) while sacrificing long term economic benefit (the loss of overall hunter numbers/license sales due to decreased public land hunting success)? Longterm, the best thing for the birds AND the state is to retain and recruit hunters. You won't do that without increasing quality public hunting opportunity.
What about when a club keeps water open in the middle of a severe cold snap and congregates thousands of ducks into a few small acres and an avian flu wipes out thousands of them all at once? Is that good for the birds and the state? Just curious...
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What about the corn ponds with the brown trout in them? They tend to pull as much ducks as the richy rich clubs do. Seriously tho baiting is baiting and the only ones allowed to plant (standing) crops for duck harvest should be the game dept.
Totally agree. Has anyone here ever communicated about this with the game department via public comment at a meeting or online? What sort of response did you get?
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I hope for the sake of all hunters the planting of standing corn is never restricted. Corn is no different to me than apple trees, wheat, or any type of planted and naturally occurring food source. We should not try and restrict one unless we are ok with the same equivalent restrictions being applied across the board.
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I hope for the sake of all hunters the planting of standing corn is never restricted. Corn is no different to me than apple trees, wheat, or any type of planted and naturally occurring food source. We should not try and restrict one unless we are ok with the same equivalent restrictions being applied across the board.
The issue isn't standing corn. The issue is standing corn that is then artificially flooded. Two very different things.
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I hope for the sake of all hunters the planting of standing corn is never restricted. Corn is no different to me than apple trees, wheat, or any type of planted and naturally occurring food source. We should not try and restrict one unless we are ok with the same equivalent restrictions being applied across the board.
The issue isn't standing corn. The issue is standing corn that is then artificially flooded. Two very different things.
I will add to this that is it standing corn that is artificially flooded "for the soul purpose of hunting"
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Are there any other states where corn ponds are illegal?
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What about the corn ponds with the brown trout in them? They tend to pull as much ducks as the richy rich clubs do. Seriously tho baiting is baiting and the only ones allowed to plant (standing) crops for duck harvest should be the game dept.
Totally agree. Has anyone here ever communicated about this with the game department via public comment at a meeting or online? What sort of response did you get?
I think most hunters have given up with the public comment or meeting thing? Most have realized their opinion or concerns are invalid. Sad but true.
You might be right, sadly, but is there hope in the fact that baiting for big game has been restricted in WA state (though not eliminated)? Weren't public comments and complaints from public land hunters the driving force behind those restrictions? Maybe there's a model there for how public land waterfowlers might be able to move forward with this issue.
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Maybe we can just ask Mikal Moore. She is the waterfowl biologist for the basin.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/research/staff/moore_mikal.html (https://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/research/staff/moore_mikal.html)
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Maybe we can just ask Mikal Moore. She is the waterfowl biologist for the basin.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/research/staff/moore_mikal.html (https://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/research/staff/moore_mikal.html)
That's a great idea. Thanks royalhntr. I'm going to email her next week and see if I can get her take on all this.
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Yeah and put away your fancy swaros and long range guns and quit getting in shape so that it's fair for everyone else.
If you were to regulate the planting for ducks, where does it stop. Are you going to say that you can't plant a food plot for deer or elk because all the big ones are now on private property. I have land and plant for ducks and Flood my corn and kill the hell out of them. If you can afford it go for it. It just sounds like crazy everyone's a winner mentality. I suppose since I'm a better caller than most and pull birds away from others set ups when I hunt public I should put my calls away and wait till everyone has shot their fair share.
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Yeah and put away your fancy swaros and long range guns and quit getting in shape so that it's fair for everyone else. If you were to regulate the planting for ducks, where does it stop. Are you going to say that you can't plant a food plot for deer or elk because all the big ones are now on private property. I have land and plant for ducks and Flood my corn and kill the hell out of them. If you can afford it go for it. It just sounds like crazy everyone's a winner mentality. I suppose since I'm a better caller than most and pull birds away from others set ups when I hunt public I should put my calls away and wait till everyone has shot their fair share.
This has absolutely zero relevance to this thread. 100% different
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Interesting topic.
I don't think I'd want to restrict a landowners rights to plant......... but the plant and flood on purpose does seem a lot like baiting. It essentially accomplished the same thing as just baiting.
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Interesting topic.
I don't think I'd want to restrict a landowners rights to plant......... but the plant and flood on purpose does seem a lot like baiting. It essentially accomplished the same thing as just baiting.
Right. Dumping corn in water is illegal - but dumping water in corn is not. Either way you end up with a corn soup duck magnet.
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Interesting topic.
I don't think I'd want to restrict a landowners rights to plant......... but the plant and flood on purpose does seem a lot like baiting. It essentially accomplished the same thing as just baiting.
Right. Dumping corn in water is illegal - but dumping water in corn is not. Either way you end up with a corn soup duck magnet.
And the guys with the most bucks get the most ducks. It ain't right.
Lately there are lease clubs doing this. They basically control and change 90% or more of the migratory waterfowl off of their natural routes which would normally spread them out. Condensing these birds not only takes away opportunity from most duck hunters but also could spread disease(bird flue). Not right
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Interesting topic.
I don't think I'd want to restrict a landowners rights to plant......... but the plant and flood on purpose does seem a lot like baiting. It essentially accomplished the same thing as just baiting.
Right. Dumping corn in water is illegal - but dumping water in corn is not. Either way you end up with a corn soup duck magnet.
And the guys with the most bucks get the most ducks. It ain't right.
Lately there are lease clubs doing this. They basically control and change 90% or more of the migratory waterfowl off of their natural routes which would normally spread them out. Condensing these birds not only takes away opportunity from most duck hunters but also could spread disease(bird flue). Not right
Well said. I have a hard time believing this is still legal in ten years. Declining license purchasers will force the game dept to take action on a number of fronts - and eliminating this practice through legislation is an easy, cost effective way to increase opportunity on public land and recruit/retain more hunters.
Guys on leases will still get their birds - but they'll have to do it over dry crops or natural wetlands. The controlled hunting pressure and other forms of habitat improvement will still allow them to enjoy a higher quality of hunting than they'd have on public land, but without changing migration patterns.
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In my opinion just another debate putting hunters against other hunters drawing a bigger line in the middle. There is a reason hunters can never accomplish anything as a whole.
Just like the baiting and hound initiative. Alot of of hunters voted for it cause they didnt have the time or money to bait or run hounds or it didnt fit into there ethics. They figured it would give them more opportunity as boot hunters. Look where that has got us.
Same with the die hard archery, muzzy, and rifle guys. Always arguing about season lengths dates and tags. Until everybody can find some common ground with each hunting is just going to continue going down hill
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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I've got mixed feelings on this topic...
By the letter of the law a guy that leaves a standing corn crop and floods it is technically not baiting, but everyone knows his intentions basically amount to baiting. Just because he doesn't manipulate the crop doesn't mean a duck doesn't know there's a corn field there.
On the other hand, I believe these properties are beneficial to everyone in that they provide necessary habitat for wintering waterfowl. If you take the hunting part of it out of the equation, how can you rag on a guy for leaving hundreds of acres of standing crop as food? Ducks sure aren't going to find that much food on public lands.
But where do you draw the line?
Standing crops are OK as long as not artificially flooded? What constitutes artificially flooded? A lot of ways a guy can get around that by not allowing water to drain rather then not pumping water in.
Would a guy be able to artificially flood a field if it didn't have a standing crop in it? How would one justify that as OK when ducks need water to survive just as they need food?
These questions aren't directed at anyone in particular, just food for thought. I've read the baiting regs quite extensively and there's a lot in there that doesn't necessarily make sense, but they've got to draw the line somewhere.
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I don’t see the corn ponds as a problem. I’ve spent most of my time on public land but occasionally been invited to hunt some private flooded corn ponds. Both are great. Washington has tons of birds and I think it can support all kinds of hunters with different setups and methods. Public lands have plenty of habitat that ducks love and whenever I put in a little effort to get away from the crowd I usually have a pretty good day. I’ve punctured a few pairs of waders fighting through brush to get to hidden public ponds that hold A LOT of birds. Last season I spent one morning hunkered down in the middle of a public hunt by reservation field when over a thousand mallards bombed in all around me. There were private corn ponds in the area but I did just fine.
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I've got mixed feelings on this topic...
By the letter of the law a guy that leaves a standing corn crop and floods it is technically not baiting, but everyone knows his intentions basically amount to baiting. Just because he doesn't manipulate the crop doesn't mean a duck doesn't know there's a corn field there.
On the other hand, I believe these properties are beneficial to everyone in that they provide necessary habitat for wintering waterfowl. If you take the hunting part of it out of the equation, how can you rag on a guy for leaving hundreds of acres of standing crop as food? Ducks sure aren't going to find that much food on public lands.
But where do you draw the line?
Standing crops are OK as long as not artificially flooded? What constitutes artificially flooded? A lot of ways a guy can get around that by not allowing water to drain rather then not pumping water in.
Would a guy be able to artificially flood a field if it didn't have a standing crop in it? How would one justify that as OK when ducks need water to survive just as they need food?
These questions aren't directed at anyone in particular, just food for thought. I've read the baiting regs quite extensively and there's a lot in there that doesn't necessarily make sense, but they've got to draw the line somewhere.
Great questions, actually, but I think you're right: the baiting regulations as they exist now are already complex and subjective - moving the line to outlaw flooded crops won't remove the complexity or subjectivity, but just focus the questions at a different line in the sand.
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I don’t see the corn ponds as a problem. I’ve spent most of my time on public land but occasionally been invited to hunt some private flooded corn ponds. Both are great. Washington has tons of birds and I think it can support all kinds of hunters with different setups and methods. Public lands have plenty of habitat that ducks love and whenever I put in a little effort to get away from the crowd I usually have a pretty good day. I’ve punctured a few pairs of waders fighting through brush to get to hidden public ponds that hold A LOT of birds. Last season I spent one morning hunkered down in the middle of a public hunt by reservation field when over a thousand mallards bombed in all around me. There were private corn ponds in the area but I did just fine.
The question isn't whether you can still kill birds on public land or not - it's whether outlawing flooded crops will improve the public land hunting opportunity. If birds stop using private corn ponds (because they are outlawed), where will those birds go for food and/or water?
And keep in mind, we've been enjoying historically high duck numbers since 2014. What if a dry spring puts the breeding duck population below the long-term average? I think public land hunters will feel the pinch much more sharply when that happens.
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I don’t see the corn ponds as a problem. I’ve spent most of my time on public land but occasionally been invited to hunt some private flooded corn ponds. Both are great. Washington has tons of birds and I think it can support all kinds of hunters with different setups and methods. Public lands have plenty of habitat that ducks love and whenever I put in a little effort to get away from the crowd I usually have a pretty good day. I’ve punctured a few pairs of waders fighting through brush to get to hidden public ponds that hold A LOT of birds. Last season I spent one morning hunkered down in the middle of a public hunt by reservation field when over a thousand mallards bombed in all around me. There were private corn ponds in the area but I did just fine.
The question isn't whether you can still kill birds on public land or not - it's whether outlawing flooded crops will improve the public land hunting opportunity. If birds stop using private corn ponds (because they are outlawed), where will those birds go for food and/or water?
And keep in mind, we've been enjoying historically high duck numbers since 2014. What if a dry spring puts the breeding duck population below the long-term average? I think public land hunters will feel the pinch much more sharply when that happens.
We also need to look beyond our own hunting success and look at the long term effects this has on overall hunter recruitment. If these big operations continue to buy up and flood more corn, that will inevitably draw more birds there and away from public land. This is on top of an already shrinking amount of quality public land hunting opportunities. Youth, new hunters, novice hunters etc could easily get turned off from bird hunting after a few poor experiences along with the increasing costs of hunting licenses, stamps etc.
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Let’s say you start with 1 million ducks. 20 years ago area AB and C held 2,000 ducks. Now they hold 200,000 ducks. Simple math says that yes it affects migration. Corn ponds aren’t producing more ducks just holding more ducks.
Legal yes... should it be legal? In my opinion no.
I don’t see it changing though. I don’t think we should get into a big argument over it. It is what it is.
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Respectfully, I just see it differently. Sure, if the corn ponds went away those ducks would fill into all of the available water. But food and water are both plentiful in the northwest. Tons of those places are 100% safe (no hunting). How many times have you left public land with great ponds only to see a 2 foot wide irrigation ditch along the side of the road filled with ducks? A nice puddle plus nobody shooting at them makes a home for a duck. A small percentage of water is on public hunting land so, sure there would be a few more ducks around without the corn ponds but there are so many places for them to go, I can't imagine it would make a huge difference. From my perspective, plenty of ducks want to get down on public land but for all the well-discussed reasons they get blown out (people arriving late and walking around, setting up too close to each other, too much calling, loud calling, sky busting, etc.). Eliminating corn ponds isn't going to make a duck bomb down if things look and sound unnatural. The first thing to do to get more ducks on public land is help each other out a little. I'm not defending the super-rich people, I'm just saying, as public land hunters we can do a lot to make things better ourselves. Good seasons on public land have been happening long before 2014. I have friends starting up all the time and meet lots of new guys in the parking lots - recruitment seems okay to me. I can see your perspective and respect your opinions. I just have a slightly different one.
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Respectfully, I just see it differently. Sure, if the corn ponds went away those ducks would fill into all of the available water. But food and water are both plentiful in the northwest. Tons of those places are 100% safe (no hunting). How many times have you left public land with great ponds only to see a 2 foot wide irrigation ditch along the side of the road filled with ducks? A nice puddle plus nobody shooting at them makes a home for a duck. A small percentage of water is on public hunting land so, sure there would be a few more ducks around without the corn ponds but there are so many places for them to go, I can't imagine it would make a huge difference. From my perspective, plenty of ducks want to get down on public land but for all the well-discussed reasons they get blown out (people arriving late and walking around, setting up too close to each other, too much calling, loud calling, sky busting, etc.). Eliminating corn ponds isn't going to make a duck bomb down if things look and sound unnatural. The first thing to do to get more ducks on public land is help each other out a little. I'm not defending the super-rich people, I'm just saying, as public land hunters we can do a lot to make things better ourselves. Good seasons on public land have been happening long before 2014. I have friends starting up all the time and meet lots of new guys in the parking lots - recruitment seems okay to me. I can see your perspective and respect your opinions. I just have a slightly different one.
So land that held none to very little ducks now holding hundreds of thousands because of flooded fields aren't making a difference but meeting other public land hunters will? Umm okay. Also just because you meet new people or have friends starting up doesn't mean recruitment is good. If you look at license sells I believe we are on a downward trend.
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Respectfully, I just see it differently. Sure, if the corn ponds went away those ducks would fill into all of the available water. But food and water are both plentiful in the northwest. Tons of those places are 100% safe (no hunting). How many times have you left public land with great ponds only to see a 2 foot wide irrigation ditch along the side of the road filled with ducks? A nice puddle plus nobody shooting at them makes a home for a duck. A small percentage of water is on public hunting land so, sure there would be a few more ducks around without the corn ponds but there are so many places for them to go, I can't imagine it would make a huge difference. From my perspective, plenty of ducks want to get down on public land but for all the well-discussed reasons they get blown out (people arriving late and walking around, setting up too close to each other, too much calling, loud calling, sky busting, etc.). Eliminating corn ponds isn't going to make a duck bomb down if things look and sound unnatural. The first thing to do to get more ducks on public land is help each other out a little. I'm not defending the super-rich people, I'm just saying, as public land hunters we can do a lot to make things better ourselves. Good seasons on public land have been happening long before 2014. I have friends starting up all the time and meet lots of new guys in the parking lots - recruitment seems okay to me. I can see your perspective and respect your opinions. I just have a slightly different one.
So land that held none to very little ducks now holding hundreds of thousands because of flooded fields aren't making a difference but meeting other public land hunters will? Umm okay. Also just because you meet new people or have friends starting up doesn't mean recruitment is good. If you look at license sells I believe we are on a downward trend.
Exactly. New guys are starting up, but not nearly to replace the number of old guys hanging up their calls or simply getting frustrated that some of their favorite public spots are more competitive and less productive than they used to be.
Ducks are a finite resource. If corn ponds are drawing and holding thousands of birds (like the outfitters brag that they are to entice clients), then NECESSARILY that means public land is drawing and holding fewer birds. Simple math - addition somewhere mean subtraction somewhere else. MASSIVE addition somewhere (e.g. corn ponds) means MASSIVE subtraction somewhere else (public lands).
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I run my own propertys and design / do consulting for others ( some for hunting, some not) my thing is mostly moist soil habitat with some oats, buckwheat, and barley at times.
Moist soil habitat is much less Expensive especially if you harvest your own seed, but can be more labor intensive and theirs research, biology and trial & error each area & every property and area is diffrent.
Corn is more of a catch-all it takes little research understanding, & habitat knowledge, just money. Flooding corn with pump systems and draw downs to expose new food is somthing quite diffrent. Again its money..
I think you can offer alternatives that often ducks prefer over corn ( unless its really cold) that said you can also find public land that offers wonderful hunting, A frend shot 10 limits in 10 days on A well known public spot that just offers overgrown grass as habitat and is surrounded by clubs.
Those clubs hold birds in areas, providing more birds in a area overall. The clubs in the monroe valley keep thousands of birds in the area all season "short stopping" them which benifits everyone in the valley.
My concern is the impact on new hunters who dont have the experence to do well. A few epic hunts help new hunters "catch the bug"
I think perhhaps a idea is the really big clubs could donate or buy land at a percentage of every new large parcel they devolope, like the wetlands banks devolopers have to make per the acres of wetlands they distroy.
( but their midigation propertys are closed to hunting and 90% are overgrown which is a fail in my book)
The birds are here, with more than enough food, just in diffrent locations than the past
New hunters just need mentors and places, that they buy into more than just killing birds.
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I run my own propertys and design / do consulting for others ( some for hunting, some not) my thing is mostly moist soil habitat with some oats, buckwheat, and barley at times.
Moist soil habitat is much less Expensive especially if you harvest your own seed, but can be more labor intensive and theirs research, biology and trial & error each area & every property and area is diffrent.
Corn is more of a catch-all it takes little research understanding, & habitat knowledge, just money. Flooding corn with pump systems and draw downs to expose new food is somthing quite diffrent. Again its money..
I think you can offer alternatives that often ducks prefer over corn ( unless its really cold) that said you can also find public land that offers wonderful hunting, A frend shot 10 limits in 10 days on A well known public spot that just offers overgrown grass as habitat and is surrounded by clubs.
Those clubs hold birds in areas, providing more birds in a area overall. The clubs in the monroe valley keep thousands of birds in the area all season "short stopping" them which benifits everyone in the valley.
My concern is the impact on new hunters who dont have the experence to do well. A few epic hunts help new hunters "catch the bug"
I think perhhaps a idea is the really big clubs could donate or buy land at a percentage of every new large parcel they devolope, like the wetlands banks devolopers have to make per the acres of wetlands they distroy.
( but their midigation propertys are closed to hunting and 90% are overgrown which is a fail in my book)
The birds are here, with more than enough food, just in diffrent locations than the past
New hunters just need mentors and places, that they buy into more than just killing birds.
Interesting idea with the land donation/opening land to hunters proposal. That could help recruit new hunters, perhaps, but wouldn't solve the larger problem of re-distributing ducks back to public lands.
The example of your buddy who shot ten limits in ten days on public land isn't necessarily relevant to this discussion. There are certainly still ducks to be killed on public land, but there could be MORE ducks to be killed if there were fewer ducks using private corn ponds (and more ducks in more places on public lands - which would reduce competition and help out new hunters, especially).
Also, if public land hunting is as great as all the corn pond guys say it is right now, why don't they just save some money, drain their corn ponds, and shoot an easy limit on public land every Saturday instead??? (sorry, I tried my best, but the sarcasm just slipped out)
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For the public land hunter the best thing would be for better habitat/food plots on public lands rather than creating more government rules for private land owners thinking it will increase public land hunter success. Each region only has a certain amount of carrying capacity for ducks and the corn complexes help increase that. WA state has some of the best public land hunting in the US even with corn complexes. Take those away you will just have more people on limited public areas shooting at the same ducks day after day.
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For the public land hunter the best thing would be for better habitat/food plots on public lands rather than creating more government rules for private land owners thinking it will increase public land hunter success. Each region only has a certain amount of carrying capacity for ducks and the corn complexes help increase that. WA state has some of the best public land hunting in the US even with corn complexes. Take those away you will just have more people on limited public areas shooting at the same ducks day after day.
They might increase the carrying capacity but they also congregate mass amounts of birds to those areas. I agree that WA does have good bird hunting and liberal seasons but I have seen first hand how corn ponds have grown here in central wa. It is a fickle balance between impeding a private landowners right to do with their land as they please and thinking about the greater good of the overall hunting community. I don't think there is an easy answer to this one.
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For the public land hunter the best thing would be for better habitat/food plots on public lands rather than creating more government rules for private land owners thinking it will increase public land hunter success. Each region only has a certain amount of carrying capacity for ducks and the corn complexes help increase that. WA state has some of the best public land hunting in the US even with corn complexes. Take those away you will just have more people on limited public areas shooting at the same ducks day after day.
Public is getting worse. Most of the duck spots towards the bay fronts are being converted to salmon restoration projects!
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Public is getting worse. Most of the duck spots towards the bay fronts are being converted to salmon restoration projects!
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:yeah:
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For the public land hunter the best thing would be for better habitat/food plots on public lands rather than creating more government rules for private land owners thinking it will increase public land hunter success. Each region only has a certain amount of carrying capacity for ducks and the corn complexes help increase that. WA state has some of the best public land hunting in the US even with corn complexes. Take those away you will just have more people on limited public areas shooting at the same ducks day after day.
They might increase the carrying capacity but they also congregate mass amounts of birds to those areas. I agree that WA does have good bird hunting and liberal seasons but I have seen first hand how corn ponds have grown here in central wa. It is a fickle balance between impeding a private landowners right to do with their land as they please and thinking about the greater good of the overall hunting community. I don't think there is an easy answer to this one.
Another aspect to this: what effect do corn ponds have on other wildlife? If flooded corn hunting was illegal, my guess is that private landowners would take other steps to improve the waterfowl habitat on their property to keep it attractive to ducks - marsh restoration, planting native food sources, etc. Would these improvements create a healthier ecosystem overall for other wildlife than a large mass of flooded corn complexes?
I'd be curious to hear a wildlife biologist's take on all this. Corn ponds do, indeed, increase the carrying capacity for ducks, but that is not the only concern for state wildlife officials (or the non-hunting public, for that matter).
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I think the problem with other crops being planted is that there is not as readily available market to sell those crops into. Corn gets planted because 1. Ducks like it 2. a farm can plant 100 acres and leave 10 standing to hunt in and sell the other 90 which pays for the 10 standing. Doing all 100 acres in a crop that cant easily be sold would be hard to sustain.
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I think the problem with other crops being planted is that there is not as readily available market to sell those crops into. Corn gets planted because 1. Ducks like it 2. a farm can plant 100 acres and leave 10 standing to hunt in and sell the other 90 which pays for the 10 standing. Doing all 100 acres in a crop that cant easily be sold would be hard to sustain.
Most places we are talking about do not harvest their corn to make money, they harvest it so they are following the rules. Their money comes from multiple blinds full of hunters that either are paying $200 per day to hunt of a thousands of dollars per year in membership dues. :twocents:
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I'm just saying thats why people dont plant other types of grain
I know that the private farm I hunt feeds and supplies a whole season of shooting for adjacent public area hunters. If the farm wasnt there in the way that it is these public land hunters would not have the opportunity that they currently enjoy.
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I'm just saying thats why people dont plant other types of grain
I know that the private farm I hunt feeds and supplies a whole season of shooting for adjacent public area hunters. If the farm wasnt there in the way that it is these public land hunters would not have the opportunity that they currently enjoy.
So there wasn't ducks there before you put in corn? I find that hard to believe. No clue on where you live so maybe that truly is the case.
I do know that big farms are making an impact farther out than just around adjacent public lands. Here in Spokane the numbers of birds are going down and move out quicker. Also I'm seeing more and more birds in the Tri Cities and Moses Lake areas. I don't believe this is a coincidence. I believe that big farms are drawing birds off of their migration patterns and holding them there.
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I'm just saying thats why people dont plant other types of grain
I know that the private farm I hunt feeds and supplies a whole season of shooting for adjacent public area hunters. If the farm wasnt there in the way that it is these public land hunters would not have the opportunity that they currently enjoy.
So there wasn't ducks there before you put in corn? I find that hard to believe. No clue on where you live so maybe that truly is the case.
I do know that big farms are making an impact farther out than just around adjacent public lands. Here in Spokane the numbers of birds are going down and move out quicker. Also I'm seeing more and more birds in the Tri Cities and Moses Lake areas. I don't believe this is a coincidence. I believe that big farms are drawing birds off of their migration patterns and holding them there.
:yeah: I would also disagree that those corn ponds bring much of a change to the surrounding public land hunting besides the occasional pass shooting. If they weren't there, birds would be spread out and loafing all over instead of just hanging out and bouncing between corn ponds
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I'm just saying thats why people dont plant other types of grain
I know that the private farm I hunt feeds and supplies a whole season of shooting for adjacent public area hunters. If the farm wasnt there in the way that it is these public land hunters would not have the opportunity that they currently enjoy.
So there wasn't ducks there before you put in corn? I find that hard to believe. No clue on where you live so maybe that truly is the case.
I do know that big farms are making an impact farther out than just around adjacent public lands. Here in Spokane the numbers of birds are going down and move out quicker. Also I'm seeing more and more birds in the Tri Cities and Moses Lake areas. I don't believe this is a coincidence. I believe that big farms are drawing birds off of their migration patterns and holding them there.
:yeah: I would also disagree that those corn ponds bring much of a change to the surrounding public land hunting besides the occasional pass shooting. If they weren't there, birds would be spread out and loafing all over instead of just hanging out and bouncing between corn ponds
Yes - that's exactly what I've observed in the public areas I hunt. They are in close proximity to several large corn complexes, and as the corn ponds have increased over the last fifteen years, the number of ducks actively using the public areas for water have decreased (pretty dramatically, in some cases). More birds stay in the general area longer, perhaps, but that hasn't helped the public hunter much.
Before the corn ponds, there was plenty of dry corn and other dry crops in the area, but most of the open water was on public land, so ducks could not have all their needs met on private land as easily as with flooded corn complexes. The public hunting has suffered. You can still kill ducks on public, sure - but if I was just getting into duck hunting now, I'd probably quit in frustration before finding those spots or give up in the face of competition from established, dedicated duck hunters.
Ducks spread out in smaller concentrations would certainly create better conditions for a duck hunting newbie.
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And so began the era of internet scouting! Lots of hunters have posted glory shots with plenty of identifiable background. My honey hole has been overrun, where did they come from? Cell phone photos with GPS coding enabled really gives away the honey hole. Public land/water hunting has become cutthroat. Nobody in our group posts photos from the field/water and is frowned upon even taken at home as guys get to know what vehicle or boat you have and actually look for your rig to get near the X.
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And so began the era of internet scouting! Lots of hunters have posted glory shots with plenty of identifiable background. My honey hole has been overrun, where did they come from? Cell phone photos with GPS coding enabled really gives away the honey hole. Public land/water hunting has become cutthroat. Nobody in our group posts photos from the field/water and is frowned upon even taken at home as guys get to know what vehicle or boat you have and actually look for your rig to get near the X.
sad but true. Good spots can be ruined in the hands of one wrong person.
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The corn used to get cut now we leave some standing. The guys I have talked to shoot limits at decoying birds. Would you guys in EWa rather see those corn complexes planted in grapes instead of corn. What about golf courses or highschool baseball fields, isnt it safe to say those are a safe haven for birds? I would much rather have a chance to hunt ducks in a area that they orbit around than to not have a food and water source. Birds will not stay on huntable public land if you can hunt 7 days a week. You guys seem to think if the complexes go away you will hve the same number of birds pouring into the public areas. That wont happen due to the hunting pressure they will get.
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The corn used to get cut now we leave some standing. The guys I have talked to shoot limits at decoying birds. Would you guys in EWa rather see those corn complexes planted in grapes instead of corn. What about golf courses or highschool baseball fields, isnt it safe to say those are a safe haven for birds? I would much rather have a chance to hunt ducks in a area that they orbit around than to not have a food and water source. Birds will not stay on huntable public land if you can hunt 7 days a week. You guys seem to think if the complexes go away you will hve the same number of birds pouring into the public areas. That wont happen due to the hunting pressure they will get.
Most of the public places in the basin won't be golf courses or baseball fields so that is a bit of a stretch. As for grapes, yes I would rather have it a working vineyard so the birds that do make their way down the pacific flyway will disperse appropriately and not pile up. :twocents:
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Sorry I was meaning to say birds stacking up on golf courses and baseball fields away from public hunting areas, thus keeping birds in an area that cant be hunted.
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Sorry I was meaning to say birds stacking up on golf courses and baseball fields away from public hunting areas, thus keeping birds in an area that cant be hunted.
On that front, I look at it as part of the normal course of life and something we have to deal with no matter what. Now if guys were out there hiding in bunkers and dugouts, waiting for a flock to come in it might change my mind :chuckle:
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The corn used to get cut now we leave some standing. The guys I have talked to shoot limits at decoying birds. Would you guys in EWa rather see those corn complexes planted in grapes instead of corn. What about golf courses or highschool baseball fields, isnt it safe to say those are a safe haven for birds? I would much rather have a chance to hunt ducks in a area that they orbit around than to not have a food and water source. Birds will not stay on huntable public land if you can hunt 7 days a week. You guys seem to think if the complexes go away you will hve the same number of birds pouring into the public areas. That wont happen due to the hunting pressure they will get.
Baseball fields and golf courses aren't designed for the soul purpose of holding 10's of thousands of ducks or more throughout the hunting season. I have hunted public lands near some of these corn complexes. I have spent several mornings watching empty skies only to later see ducks materializing from no where and plummeting from great heights in to the corn complexes just a few miles away. I have also seen incredible tornados of ducks that lift up when the shooting starts only to settle right back in after the hunters quickly fill their limits. I have seldom ever benefitted on public land from the hunting that takes place in the corn complexes. :twocents:
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MoMarsh is going to have to come up with a golf course "bunker blind" now. @mfowl its kind of like watching a raft of 5,000 birds sitting in the middle of the Columbia, frustrating as hell, until the barge comes along hopefully.
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MoMarsh is going to have to come up with a golf course "bunker blind" now. @mfowl its kind of like watching a raft of 5,000 birds sitting in the middle of the Columbia, frustrating as hell, until the barge comes along hopefully.
The Columbia is not manipulated for the purpose of holding rafts of birds in the middle.
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MoMarsh is going to have to come up with a golf course "bunker blind" now. @mfowl its kind of like watching a raft of 5,000 birds sitting in the middle of the Columbia, frustrating as hell, until the barge comes along hopefully.
Now you might me on to something with the blind idea! :chuckle:
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The corn used to get cut now we leave some standing. The guys I have talked to shoot limits at decoying birds. Would you guys in EWa rather see those corn complexes planted in grapes instead of corn. What about golf courses or highschool baseball fields, isnt it safe to say those are a safe haven for birds? I would much rather have a chance to hunt ducks in a area that they orbit around than to not have a food and water source. Birds will not stay on huntable public land if you can hunt 7 days a week. You guys seem to think if the complexes go away you will hve the same number of birds pouring into the public areas. That wont happen due to the hunting pressure they will get.
15 years or so ago, before the complexes, we did have more birds on public land.
That is the whole point of this thread- corn complexes pulling and holding the majority of ducks. There is no dispute that these complexes are altering migrations and flight paths. That is why you plant them.
I hate the argument that these complexes are "good" for the ducks. How did ducks ever survive before them?
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The corn used to get cut now we leave some standing. The guys I have talked to shoot limits at decoying birds. Would you guys in EWa rather see those corn complexes planted in grapes instead of corn. What about golf courses or highschool baseball fields, isnt it safe to say those are a safe haven for birds? I would much rather have a chance to hunt ducks in a area that they orbit around than to not have a food and water source. Birds will not stay on huntable public land if you can hunt 7 days a week. You guys seem to think if the complexes go away you will hve the same number of birds pouring into the public areas. That wont happen due to the hunting pressure they will get.
Baseball fields and golf courses aren't designed for the soul purpose of holding 10's of thousands of ducks or more throughout the hunting season. I have hunted public lands near some of these corn complexes. I have spent several mornings watching empty skies only to later see ducks materializing from no where and plummeting from great heights in to the corn complexes just a few miles away. I have also seen incredible tornados of ducks that lift up when the shooting starts only to settle right back in after the hunters quickly fill their limits. I have seldom ever benefitted on public land from the hunting that takes place in the corn complexes. :twocents:
My experience exactly. The area I've hunted the most over the last decade is DIRECTLY adjacent to one large flooded corn complex, and within a five mile radius of several others. Corn ponds on those properties have increased, and the public hunting has gotten worse. Much worse, in fact.
And...the corn pond hunters are good hunters. Smart hunters. They don't shoot into big flocks, they hunt strategic times of day, they rotate which ponds they hunt, how many guns per pond, etc. ALL for the purpose of keeping birds on their property and OFF public land. These hunters/outfitters are disciplined, work hard, and their tactics work.
But that's what makes it such a lousy situation for public hunters, especially as the number and size of corn ponds expand season after season.
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https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regions/region2/waterfowl_surveys.html
These show waterfowl counts in the CB including eagle and sugar ranch. Lots of birds there but usually double the number of birds on surrounding public areas.
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https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regions/region2/waterfowl_surveys.html
These show waterfowl counts in the CB including eagle and sugar ranch. Lots of birds there but usually double the number of birds on surrounding public areas.
It would be nice to see 2016 & 2017. Most of those clubs have improved habitat or added more corn ponds like eagle lakes.
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I think they had to stop due to budge cuts. The numbers that we do have show public areas still holding plenty of ducks. Hunting pressure and weather have way more influence on a successful outing. People want to blame the complexes for a lack of birds but have you ever gone out to the pubic areas a week or so after the season. Ducks Everywhere!! I feel like with social media these days everyone thinks they should be getting a limit of green each time they go out. Also the newbie's expect to have the same success as guys who have been at it for years. With duck hunting especially public land the 80/20 rule is at play. You need to spend 80% of your time scouting and 20% hunting. Taking that approach will make you part of the 10% that shoots 90% of the ducks. :twocents: :tup:
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https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regions/region2/waterfowl_surveys.html
These show waterfowl counts in the CB including eagle and sugar ranch. Lots of birds there but usually double the number of birds on surrounding public areas.
Hmmm...I may be reading the data wrong, but it looks like these counts support the argument that corn ponds keep ducks OFF land open to public hunting, rather than improving the public hunting opportunity.
Like this data here:
https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regions/region2/surveys/november_21_2013.pdf
According to the second most-recent count (Nov. 21, 2013), there were over 21,000 mallards between "Eagle Lakes" and "crab creek hunt clubs", compared with 575 mallards on Potholes Reservoir, 270 on the Frenchman Wasteway. There were larger groups of birds on the reserves, but again - not areas open to hunting.
5000 mallards in the "Sugar/Bailie" category, but that includes a LOT of land not open to public hunting.
Keep in mind, this is only late November, too: ducks hit the corn ponds even harder in the rough conditions of Dec/January, and public spots grow more competitive due to limited open water.
This data seems to show that ducks would be MUCH more evenly distributed throughout the basin if corn ponds complexes were reduced or outlawed.
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My uncle is a well known dog trainer and trains the dogs of one pretty big corn pond outfit in the basin. I hunted it twice many years ago and it sure is a sight to see and quite the stream lined process. When we hunted it, we were told to wait for "the call" when the birds were there. Both times I went, the head guy estimated that anywhere from 25k-30k birds were there and I completely believe him after seeing it first hand. The way they ran it was to systematically put hunters out in different blinds on different parts of the property. We were told to try our best to only shoot green and to not shoot at birds that were in flocks larger that 3-5 if possible. The other rule was that limit or not, we were out of the blinds by 8:00 so we could be to breakfast by 9. I picked their brains while we were there since many of my public spots were within a 10-20 mile area away. They talked about how they found that by hunting them the way they did, the birds basically never left ponds or if they did, it was to bounce to some fields and then back. That is 25k-30k birds that pretty much lived there because they had running water so the corn ponds didn't freeze...
Did I enjoy the hunt? Meh, it was pretty neat but not my style as it was really more just shooting rather than hunting. I asked my uncle if next time I came, if I could just bring my camera but I guess that is frowned upon.
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Maybe a legal beagle on here could chime in but can you outlaw a practice on private land but allow it on public? Arent there lots of Quality hunt areas that are public and that flood with grain on them? Should that opportunity be done away with?
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My uncle is a well known dog trainer and trains the dogs of one pretty big corn pond outfit in the basin. I hunted it twice many years ago and it sure is a sight to see and quite the stream lined process. When we hunted it, we were told to wait for "the call" when the birds were there. Both times I went, the head guy estimated that anywhere from 25k-30k birds were there and I completely believe him after seeing it first hand. The way they ran it was to systematically put hunters out in different blinds on different parts of the property. We were told to try our best to only shoot green and to not shoot at birds that were in flocks larger that 3-5 if possible. The other rule was that limit or not, we were out of the blinds by 8:00 so we could be to breakfast by 9. I picked their brains while we were there since many of my public spots were within a 10-20 mile area away. They talked about how they found that by hunting them the way they did, the birds basically never left ponds or if they did, it was to bounce to some fields and then back. That is 25k-30k birds that pretty much lived there because they had running water so the corn ponds didn't freeze...
Did I enjoy the hunt? Meh, it was pretty neat but not my style as it was really more just shooting rather than hunting. I asked my uncle if next time I came, if I could just bring my camera but I guess that is frowned upon.
This is the only way some of the folks with money know how to hunt. Over food. They wouldn't be very successful otherwise. I have witnessed it first hand on a few occasions.
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Maybe a legal beagle on here could chime in but can you outlaw a practice on private land but allow it on public? Arent there lots of Quality hunt areas that are public and that flood with grain on them? Should that opportunity be done away with?
If you're referring to the quality hunt program, those are private lands made accessible to the public. They are also a result of regular agricultural practices and not manipulated for the purpose of hunting. The only place I have been that might apply is some federal land in the Columbia Basin. I'm not sure that it is actually grain they plant there.
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Maybe a legal beagle on here could chime in but can you outlaw a practice on private land but allow it on public? Arent there lots of Quality hunt areas that are public and that flood with grain on them? Should that opportunity be done away with?
I would support banning the practice of flooding crops for the purpose of waterfowl hunting on both private and public land. The limited "habitat plots" on public land can't compete with the corn pond complexes anyway, so doing away with both will almost certainly improve public hunting opportunity.
But I think mfowl's right - what's happening on public land right now falls in line with normal agricultural practice, for the most part. Which, by the way, would still be permissible on the private corn pond complexes - they'd just have to harvest the corn before they flood it. Still plenty of waste grain to attract birds, but probably won't hold thousands of birds for months on end like the current corn ponds.
Private guys still get phenomenal shooting, but more ducks using public land overall would hopefully be the result.
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Maybe a legal beagle on here could chime in but can you outlaw a practice on private land but allow it on public? Arent there lots of Quality hunt areas that are public and that flood with grain on them? Should that opportunity be done away with?
If you're referring to the quality hunt program, those are private lands made accessible to the public. They are also a result of regular agricultural practices and not manipulated for the purpose of hunting. The only place I have been that might apply is some federal land in the Columbia Basin. I'm not sure that it is actually grain they plant there.
Yeah the state does have pieces on the west side as well, in which they leave corn and barley up for the birds. Sometimes its naturally flooded too. "Manipulated for the purpose of hunting" in my opinion, would be a nightmare to enforce.