Hunting Washington Forum
Community => Advocacy, Agencies, Access => Topic started by: wolfbait on June 11, 2018, 10:30:13 AM
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Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/washington-state-loses-big-legal-battle-over-salmon-culverts/
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Wait for it.....wait for it......wait for it.........
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I'm very interested to see what the tribes' next move is. I suspect they will just chip away at various things that harm fish in a tangible way. Or maybe they'll sue the feds over all the dams on the Columbia system.
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So what would be the fix? Bigger culverts to spread out and slow down water flow or bridges??
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The state has already repaired lots of culverts and has a lot to go. I'm not well versed in the engineering, but the fix is install new culverts that do not prevent fish from passing up or down stream.
The bigger issue is that the ruling basically means the treaty right to fish also means the state has an obligation not to harm fish populations to the point where that right is meaningless. It's yet to be determined exactly what that means. But, everything that harms salmon populations is potentially a violation of the treaty rights. Think shopping malls, houses, dams, roads, pavement, etc.
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I have to be honest, this doesn't bother me. It seems that to get people to do the right thing, they need to get their pants sued off. Will this have an immediate and significant impact? No, but improving wild salmon runs is a long game, and having more habitat available to use is important.
In the same breath. I don't give the tribes a big pat on the back, especially most of our Western WA tribes. I was on the Skagit system fishing this weekend and had to consider a few things. Back in the day (10 years ago), I could go to the Skagit on a June day and without any effort, catch dozens of Dolly Varden and Bull Trout. They were thick. They were feasting on out migrating Chum and Silver fry, which you would catch a lot of as well on small spinners/spoons. You could hardly use bait on a diver because it was constantly being picked apart by fry and inhaled by dollies.
In the winter you would see thousands, and I mean THOUSANDS of chums spawning. When the spawn was done, the river banks would be lined for miles with rotting carcasses, filling the river with nutrients. I would often fish in December high in the system and catch about as many dollies and wild rainbows as I wanted. A bead or flesh fly was irresistible. This last December I had an afternoon to fish and wanted to make the most of it, so I went to my most productive upriver spot. There wasn't a chum to be found. Not one. There were also no dollies or rainbows. My journal indicated that on that day 8 years prior I had landed 60 fish in that run that had no less than 500 chums spawning in it.
It was right about that time frame that CHum and Pink roe became a commodity, and the Indians and white commercials began seining and gill netting these fish. They have literally fished the Skagit, Skykomish, and Stilliguamish OUT of chums, and pinks are next.
These massive salmon runs are the key to a healthy river system's carrying capacity. Without the carcasses and spawn, there are no nutrients to feed the Dollies and Rainbows that used to dwell there. There is nothing for the bugs to eat that feed the steelhead smolt that live in the river for a year before heading to sea (why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?). I won't blame it all on the Indians, whites net these fish too, but when you hear the Indians pissing and moaning this winter that they were catching more Atlantics in their nets than the chums they were trying to catch for their CHUM HATCHERY, it really speaks volumes. There should never be a need for a chum hatchery, just don't kill all the damn things and let them spawn, they'll take care of themselves.
I thank the Indians for pressing the state to do the right thing and improve habitat, now they need to step up to the plate and improve their fishery management practices and start letting fish hit the gravel again. All the gravel in the world won't matter if you net them all before they get there.
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I have to be honest, this doesn't bother me. It seems that to get people to do the right thing, they need to get their pants sued off. Will this have an immediate and significant impact? No, but improving wild salmon runs is a long game, and having more habitat available to use is important.
In the same breath. I don't give the tribes a big pat on the back, especially most of our Western WA tribes. I was on the Skagit system fishing this weekend and had to consider a few things. Back in the day (10 years ago), I could go to the Skagit on a June day and without any effort, catch dozens of Dolly Varden and Bull Trout. They were thick. They were feasting on out migrating Chum and Silver fry, which you would catch a lot of as well on small spinners/spoons. You could hardly use bait on a diver because it was constantly being picked apart by fry and inhaled by dollies.
In the winter you would see thousands, and I mean THOUSANDS of chums spawning. When the spawn was done, the river banks would be lined for miles with rotting carcasses, filling the river with nutrients. I would often fish in December high in the system and catch about as many dollies and wild rainbows as I wanted. A bead or flesh fly was irresistible. This last December I had an afternoon to fish and wanted to make the most of it, so I went to my most productive upriver spot. There wasn't a chum to be found. Not one. There were also no dollies or rainbows. My journal indicated that on that day 8 years prior I had landed 60 fish in that run that had no less than 500 chums spawning in it.
It was right about that time frame that CHum and Pink roe became a commodity, and the Indians and white commercials began seining and gill netting these fish. They have literally fished the Skagit, Skykomish, and Stilliguamish OUT of chums, and pinks are next.
These massive salmon runs are the key to a healthy river system's carrying capacity. Without the carcasses and spawn, there are no nutrients to feed the Dollies and Rainbows that used to dwell there. There is nothing for the bugs to eat that feed the steelhead smolt that live in the river for a year before heading to sea (why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?). I won't blame it all on the Indians, whites net these fish too, but when you hear the Indians pissing and moaning this winter that they were catching more Atlantics in their nets than the chums they were trying to catch for their CHUM HATCHERY, it really speaks volumes. There should never be a need for a chum hatchery, just don't kill all the damn things and let them spawn, they'll take care of themselves.
I thank the Indians for pressing the state to do the right thing and improve habitat, now they need to step up to the plate and improve their fishery management practices and start letting fish hit the gravel again. All the gravel in the world won't matter if you net them all before they get there.
This should be the main concern. We can have all the habitat in the world, it won't matter one bit if the fish never make it that far.
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Article was written in May 2017. Is there some new developement?
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The state has been on a schedual to replace culverts for some time. Many of the most restrictive culverts that held up possible salmon habitat were done first.
Here in Skagit county Lake Creek had 2 culvert replacements. One on Cavanaugh Rd one on Hwy9. Never mind the fact that there is a 20ft waterfall on Nookachamp creek that it flowing then the Skagit. I am all for removing obstructions in the potential spawning areas, which the state has scheduled. The article makes no mention of this, or if the current lawsuit is in despute over the timeline that has been prioritized.
As sportsmen I would also like to add that the dike removals are "salmon enhancement" these project run contrary to what salmon really need in these tidal areas. What they really need is lots of deep channels to provide predator escapement as the tide drools. This opens up more area for smoky to be reared. This follows all basic understanding of wild life. The more edge cover available the greater number of animals that can be supported.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
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I see the Lumi Tribe is going after the whole Puget Sound clear into Canada's waters as their's.
They send demands to the Feds that THEY need to be "contacted" over ANY thing that goes on ANY where on their "Sea"!!
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I have to be honest, this doesn't bother me. It seems that to get people to do the right thing, they need to get their pants sued off. Will this have an immediate and significant impact? No, but improving wild salmon runs is a long game, and having more habitat available to use is important.
In the same breath. I don't give the tribes a big pat on the back, especially most of our Western WA tribes. I was on the Skagit system fishing this weekend and had to consider a few things. Back in the day (10 years ago), I could go to the Skagit on a June day and without any effort, catch dozens of Dolly Varden and Bull Trout. They were thick. They were feasting on out migrating Chum and Silver fry, which you would catch a lot of as well on small spinners/spoons. You could hardly use bait on a diver because it was constantly being picked apart by fry and inhaled by dollies.
In the winter you would see thousands, and I mean THOUSANDS of chums spawning. When the spawn was done, the river banks would be lined for miles with rotting carcasses, filling the river with nutrients. I would often fish in December high in the system and catch about as many dollies and wild rainbows as I wanted. A bead or flesh fly was irresistible. This last December I had an afternoon to fish and wanted to make the most of it, so I went to my most productive upriver spot. There wasn't a chum to be found. Not one. There were also no dollies or rainbows. My journal indicated that on that day 8 years prior I had landed 60 fish in that run that had no less than 500 chums spawning in it.
It was right about that time frame that CHum and Pink roe became a commodity, and the Indians and white commercials began seining and gill netting these fish. They have literally fished the Skagit, Skykomish, and Stilliguamish OUT of chums, and pinks are next.
These massive salmon runs are the key to a healthy river system's carrying capacity. Without the carcasses and spawn, there are no nutrients to feed the Dollies and Rainbows that used to dwell there. There is nothing for the bugs to eat that feed the steelhead smolt that live in the river for a year before heading to sea (why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?). I won't blame it all on the Indians, whites net these fish too, but when you hear the Indians pissing and moaning this winter that they were catching more Atlantics in their nets than the chums they were trying to catch for their CHUM HATCHERY, it really speaks volumes. There should never be a need for a chum hatchery, just don't kill all the damn things and let them spawn, they'll take care of themselves.
I thank the Indians for pressing the state to do the right thing and improve habitat, now they need to step up to the plate and improve their fishery management practices and start letting fish hit the gravel again. All the gravel in the world won't matter if you net them all before they get there.
:yeah:
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:yeah: Spot on! 7mmfan nailed it! Too bad that the truth isn't compatible with fish politics and all though :(
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I have to be honest, this doesn't bother me. It seems that to get people to do the right thing, they need to get their pants sued off. Will this have an immediate and significant impact? No, but improving wild salmon runs is a long game, and having more habitat available to use is important.
In the same breath. I don't give the tribes a big pat on the back, especially most of our Western WA tribes. I was on the Skagit system fishing this weekend and had to consider a few things. Back in the day (10 years ago), I could go to the Skagit on a June day and without any effort, catch dozens of Dolly Varden and Bull Trout. They were thick. They were feasting on out migrating Chum and Silver fry, which you would catch a lot of as well on small spinners/spoons. You could hardly use bait on a diver because it was constantly being picked apart by fry and inhaled by dollies.
In the winter you would see thousands, and I mean THOUSANDS of chums spawning. When the spawn was done, the river banks would be lined for miles with rotting carcasses, filling the river with nutrients. I would often fish in December high in the system and catch about as many dollies and wild rainbows as I wanted. A bead or flesh fly was irresistible. This last December I had an afternoon to fish and wanted to make the most of it, so I went to my most productive upriver spot. There wasn't a chum to be found. Not one. There were also no dollies or rainbows. My journal indicated that on that day 8 years prior I had landed 60 fish in that run that had no less than 500 chums spawning in it.
It was right about that time frame that CHum and Pink roe became a commodity, and the Indians and white commercials began seining and gill netting these fish. They have literally fished the Skagit, Skykomish, and Stilliguamish OUT of chums, and pinks are next.
These massive salmon runs are the key to a healthy river system's carrying capacity. Without the carcasses and spawn, there are no nutrients to feed the Dollies and Rainbows that used to dwell there. There is nothing for the bugs to eat that feed the steelhead smolt that live in the river for a year before heading to sea (why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?). I won't blame it all on the Indians, whites net these fish too, but when you hear the Indians pissing and moaning this winter that they were catching more Atlantics in their nets than the chums they were trying to catch for their CHUM HATCHERY, it really speaks volumes. There should never be a need for a chum hatchery, just don't kill all the damn things and let them spawn, they'll take care of themselves.
I thank the Indians for pressing the state to do the right thing and improve habitat, now they need to step up to the plate and improve their fishery management practices and start letting fish hit the gravel again. All the gravel in the world won't matter if you net them all before they get there.
:yeah:
:yeah: :yeah:
Tax that casino money, we’ll get it done faster.🤣
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Article was written in May 2017. Is there some new developement?
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/supreme-court-tie-favors-indian-tribes-in-washington-state/
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Thank you James for the link.
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I see the Lumi Tribe is going after the whole Puget Sound clear into Canada's waters as their's.
They send demands to the Feds that THEY need to be "contacted" over ANY thing that goes on ANY where on their "Sea"!!
Any example or source for “what you see”?
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The state has already repaired lots of culverts and has a lot to go. I'm not well versed in the engineering, but the fix is install new culverts that do not prevent fish from passing up or down stream.
The bigger issue is that the ruling basically means the treaty right to fish also means the state has an obligation not to harm fish populations to the point where that right is meaningless. It's yet to be determined exactly what that means. But, everything that harms salmon populations is potentially a violation of the treaty rights. Think shopping malls, houses, dams, roads, pavement, etc.
It will take another challenge of something else, like what you mention above, to get a decision out of scotus regarding the limits of treaty rights...i.e., how much harm can be done to salmon before it's considered a treaty violation.
But given the 4-4 split I'm not sure the tribes will push their luck with the current court makeup. :dunno:
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The state has already repaired lots of culverts and has a lot to go. I'm not well versed in the engineering, but the fix is install new culverts that do not prevent fish from passing up or down stream.
The bigger issue is that the ruling basically means the treaty right to fish also means the state has an obligation not to harm fish populations to the point where that right is meaningless. It's yet to be determined exactly what that means. But, everything that harms salmon populations is potentially a violation of the treaty rights. Think shopping malls, houses, dams, roads, pavement, etc.
It will take another challenge of something else, like what you mention above, to get a decision out of scotus regarding the limits of treaty rights...i.e., how much harm can be done to salmon before it's considered a treaty violation.
But given the 4-4 split I'm not sure the tribes will push their luck with the current court makeup. :dunno:
If you look at the states compromise of the Hirst decision the tribes are doing an excellent job of setting themselves up for sucess. Common law depends upon precedence, which is a long game.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
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fixing the culverts is a complete waste of money. Boondoggle!
The thing hurting salmon is made of monofilament and piles up in the bottom of a boat!
Been a number of culverts replaced around here and all I have seen many salmon above the culverts before the money was thrown at fixing them. Well, except one, a million dollar bridge to help fish passage does little when it is built above a series of three falls no fish has ever climbed.
On the other hand I could show you miles of excellent and historic spawning grounds cut off by the Cook Cr National Fish Hatchery on the QIN. :bash:
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I'm very interested to see what the tribes' next move is. I suspect they will just chip away at various things that harm fish in a tangible way. Or maybe they'll sue the feds over all the dams on the Columbia system.
Time to sue the tribes for netting the rivers. One of the biggest detriment to the decline.
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It is very hard to make drainage/salmon run specific changes when the tribes do not report on specifics. They report on aggrigate.
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How can say “(why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?)”
When there are gill nets in the river during the time the native steelhead are running? I’m pretty sure that gill nets aren’t catch and release.
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How can say “(why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?)”
When there are gill nets in the river during the time the native steelhead are running? I’m pretty sure that gill nets aren’t catch and release.
That's the point of that comment.
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Ya I see that now. Well lets face it the real problem is the lack of farm buffers to much logging, and of course the evil little culverts. :chuckle:
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http://www.newser.com/story/239140/scientists-confirm-worst-fears-about-pee-in-pools.html
An unknown in the decline of these fish is the accumulation of chemicals like Ace-K mentioned in the article, which pass thru humans (and presumably pets and farm animals) unaltered and with no ill-effects. But how do they affect other orders like salmonids?
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There are definitely a lot of unknowns. The fact that they find trace amounts of opioids and other medications in fish and shellfish in the sound indicates that even treated sewage pumps all kinds of minerals and other stuff out into the water ways in high doses.
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Heard about a study done on the Queets by NPS. 95% of salmonids were intercepted by nets on the res. See the problem?
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Man and Indian have become far too efficient at killing fish in large numbers.
Our fisheries management was 30 years too late to the party!
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Heard about a study done on the Queets by NPS. 95% of salmonids were intercepted by nets on the res. See the problem?
That would do it. I fished the Queets one weekend this year. I was thoroughly impressed that all the fish we caught were pristine, not a net mark on them. Even got to witness a tidal push of fish come through at dark, must have seen 50 rollers. That's what it could be like every day twice a day for months, if nets didn't kill them all.
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The Queets was an incredible fishery around 1980.
Just Sayin.
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I believe that. I've seen incredible days in the last 5 years, but I know they are the exception. Those days almost make me sad when I'm out there because I know that's what it used to be like all the time. When I sat at Hartzell's this spring watching that push of fish come through at dark, I couldn't help but think of what it was like before nets stretched all the way across the river. Would have been impressive to see.
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To me, the bottom line is the court decided in favor of the fish. Why would that be a bad thing?
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The sooner the culverts are removed, the sooner that excuse is done away with and can get closer to the issues of SE AK commies and tribal nets.
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The sooner the culverts are removed, the sooner that excuse is done away with and can get closer to the issues of SE AK commies and tribal nets.
Im all for reducing blockages such as culverts... Until River specific numbers studies can be done all solutions are a shot in the dark. It leads me to believe this is less about Salmon than it is about water, and the control that can be exerted. Ironic that information already collected cannot be used to help solve the problem. :twocents:
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My prediction is they will not stop gill netting until there is nothing left to catch. Then say it was logging and culverts, lack of farm buffs or whatever .
Then demand money from the government (state and federal), and will get it, because “WE” destroyed their fish runs.
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My prediction is they will not stop gill netting until there is nothing left to catch. Then say it was logging and culverts, lack of farm buffs or whatever .
Then demand money from the government (state and federal), and will get it, because “WE” destroyed their fish runs.
My thoughts exactly. Some(not all) of the tribes are a big part of the problem that they are trying to make others fix without addressing the gillnet and wasteage issue!
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I see the Lumi Tribe is going after the whole Puget Sound clear into Canada's waters as their's.
They send demands to the Feds that THEY need to be "contacted" over ANY thing that goes on ANY where on their "Sea"!!
Any example or source for “what you see”?
The Lummi's are claiming the "Salish Sea" as their ancestral fishing grounds. Its not a law suit yet but they are working at making it one.
Just for giggles I found this!
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/seeking-to-free-a-puget-sound-orca-lummi-nation-launches-trek-to-miami/
I would love to give my "source" but it to fresh to be on the internet yet.
People have forgotten WHO Gov. Booth G. and Weyerhaeuser used to come to the east side years ago and kill/Poach deer in the Methow! I made a few hundred bucks for turning them in. I would have made a lot more but the poachers made it back to their reservation before the game wardens could catch them :bash:
Still remember the public meeting in Lake Chelan over the illegal dealings by Booth and Associates!! Ole Booth should have been put in jail over it!
Our "two tiered" justice system has been around for a long time, its nothing new!
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:dunno: What is the direction of your post Timber?
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The Lummi's are claiming the "Salish Sea" as their ancestral fishing grounds. Its not a law suit yet but they are working at making it one.
Just for giggles I found this!
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/seeking-to-free-a-puget-sound-orca-lummi-nation-launches-trek-to-miami/
I would love to give my "source" but it to fresh to be on the internet yet.
People have forgotten WHO Gov. Booth G. and Weyerhaeuser used to come to the east side years ago and kill/Poach deer in the Methow! I made a few hundred bucks for turning them in. I would have made a lot more but the poachers made it back to their reservation before the game wardens could catch them :bash:
Still remember the public meeting in Lake Chelan over the illegal dealings by Booth and Associates!! Ole Booth should have been put in jail over it!
Our "two tiered" justice system has been around for a long time, its nothing new!
What does the Lummi wishing the Orca Tokitae was no longer kept at the Miami Seaquarium have to do with any of your other claims? And what does Weyerhauser and Booth Gardner's supposed poaching ring have to do with culverts?
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The Lummi's are claiming the "Salish Sea" as their ancestral fishing grounds. Its not a law suit yet but they are working at making it one.
Just for giggles I found this!
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/seeking-to-free-a-puget-sound-orca-lummi-nation-launches-trek-to-miami/
I would love to give my "source" but it to fresh to be on the internet yet.
People have forgotten WHO Gov. Booth G. and Weyerhaeuser used to come to the east side years ago and kill/Poach deer in the Methow! I made a few hundred bucks for turning them in. I would have made a lot more but the poachers made it back to their reservation before the game wardens could catch them :bash:
Still remember the public meeting in Lake Chelan over the illegal dealings by Booth and Associates!! Ole Booth should have been put in jail over it!
Our "two tiered" justice system has been around for a long time, its nothing new!
What does the Lummi wishing the Orca Tokitae was no longer kept at the Miami Seaquarium have to do with any of your other claims? And what does Weyerhauser and Booth Gardner's supposed poaching ring have to do with culverts?
:chuckle:
Because it's the government! Gah! Tribes, Democrats, Politicians, Oh my! :o
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I have to be honest, this doesn't bother me. It seems that to get people to do the right thing, they need to get their pants sued off. Will this have an immediate and significant impact? No, but improving wild salmon runs is a long game, and having more habitat available to use is important.
In the same breath. I don't give the tribes a big pat on the back, especially most of our Western WA tribes. I was on the Skagit system fishing this weekend and had to consider a few things. Back in the day (10 years ago), I could go to the Skagit on a June day and without any effort, catch dozens of Dolly Varden and Bull Trout. They were thick. They were feasting on out migrating Chum and Silver fry, which you would catch a lot of as well on small spinners/spoons. You could hardly use bait on a diver because it was constantly being picked apart by fry and inhaled by dollies.
In the winter you would see thousands, and I mean THOUSANDS of chums spawning. When the spawn was done, the river banks would be lined for miles with rotting carcasses, filling the river with nutrients. I would often fish in December high in the system and catch about as many dollies and wild rainbows as I wanted. A bead or flesh fly was irresistible. This last December I had an afternoon to fish and wanted to make the most of it, so I went to my most productive upriver spot. There wasn't a chum to be found. Not one. There were also no dollies or rainbows. My journal indicated that on that day 8 years prior I had landed 60 fish in that run that had no less than 500 chums spawning in it.
It was right about that time frame that CHum and Pink roe became a commodity, and the Indians and white commercials began seining and gill netting these fish. They have literally fished the Skagit, Skykomish, and Stilliguamish OUT of chums, and pinks are next.
These massive salmon runs are the key to a healthy river system's carrying capacity. Without the carcasses and spawn, there are no nutrients to feed the Dollies and Rainbows that used to dwell there. There is nothing for the bugs to eat that feed the steelhead smolt that live in the river for a year before heading to sea (why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?). I won't blame it all on the Indians, whites net these fish too, but when you hear the Indians pissing and moaning this winter that they were catching more Atlantics in their nets than the chums they were trying to catch for their CHUM HATCHERY, it really speaks volumes. There should never be a need for a chum hatchery, just don't kill all the damn things and let them spawn, they'll take care of themselves.
I thank the Indians for pressing the state to do the right thing and improve habitat, now they need to step up to the plate and improve their fishery management practices and start letting fish hit the gravel again. All the gravel in the world won't matter if you net them all before they get there.
:yeah:
:yeah: :yeah:
Tax that casino money, we’ll get it done faster.🤣
:yeah: :yeah:
Might as well since they buy our politicians with it!