Post by: jjhunter on March 18, 2009, 10:44:07 AM
Say I buy a landowner tag in CO unit 21 (3rd Season) or unit 70 (4th season) and hunt public land, unguided and kill a 190" (gross) deer every year (which is very possible). Does that make me a great hunter just because I killed huge deer, unguided on public land? My personal opinion is that it does not make you a good hunter, great hunter, or poor hunter. I don't think it has anything to do with hunting expertise, nor should it add or take away from the fullfillment of harvesting a trophy animal. For many, paying a guide is the only option to hunting a specific species or area. Additionally, some guided hunts may provide the greatest physical or mental challenge (dall sheep, for example). What about states like Nevada, Oregon, Utah, Colorado, Montana, where you can greatly increase the odds or guarantee the opportunity to hunt that state every year by using a guide? For people who hunt Montana or Idaho, even though you may hunt public land, you are essentially doing the same thing that guides do: limiting the competition by "buying" the right to hunt where not everyone has the same opportunity. EX: Not everyone can afford to hunt Idaho, Montana, Oregon, etc.
I have never been on a guided hunt myself, but I do not discredit the harvesting of trophy animals that are taken on these hunts. If you take a trophy animal during normal shooting hours and in season, you should be proud of a great accomplishment regardless of how/when/where.
These are just a few random thoughts....curious to see what you all think?
Post by: boneaddict on March 18, 2009, 10:56:53 AM
I also don't think its a bad thing to hunt on a big open range ranch, now high fence thing is a bit of a different subject. It comes down to what money can buy. Again, not a level playing field. Nothing wrong with the trophy at all. Now to put it all into perspective, I have a lot more respect for someone like Cameron Haines who hunts a lot on his own back in the bush where we all can hunt, than I do for Guy Eastman who takes Daddies money and hunts on a private ranch where several guys have watched these animals all summer, know their habits, know what is available, and essentially shooting not quite but close to what might be someones pet. And....then doing it everytime, and then make a living on selling "the hunt" to you.
Hope I was clear on my explanation and in answering your question.
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on March 18, 2009, 11:06:40 AM
Post by: Craig on March 18, 2009, 11:11:19 AM
Post by: jjhunter on March 18, 2009, 11:12:33 AM
Post by: jjhunter on March 18, 2009, 11:19:34 AM
I have no issue, its not realistic fo rthe average guy to scout out of state all summer and then hunt, thats is what guides do, its not like you go on a guided hunt, and dont "hunt" and just kill.. on my guided back country idaho elk hunt I killed myself for a week in the thickest, steepest area I have ever been into, to have 1 decent and 1 almost chance on bulls.. if thats not hunting im not sure what is
After 10 year of hunting N Idaho, I feel your pain! No such thing as an easy trophy in that country!
Post by: jackelope on March 18, 2009, 11:20:11 AM
it's just like fishing. i tie my own flies and feel a whole lot more satisfaction when i catch a fish on my own tie. i don't think it's wrong or right to fish with flies you tie yourself, in fact most of the flies in my boxes are store bought.
Post by: Colville on March 18, 2009, 11:24:32 AM
"you take a trophy animal during normal shooting hours and in season, you should be proud of a great accomplishment.."
That's where I disagree. I'm sure you'd agree that shooting elk at an elk ranch in legal shooting hours is not an accomplishment. I do think that guided public land, wilderness/nf etc hunts are hunting pressured game in rugged terrain. There's absolutely no guarantee of a kill, let alone a great animal on these hunts. You get some advice and direction but still have to make the climbs and scour the land to come up with your trophy. This is also true of a lot of private hunts where the size of the piece, the terrain and game pops still make a guy really work to get his chance, like on public land.
On the other hand some private land deals are dunks. There's little or no work involved. Un-pressured game often moving to and from predictable feed from agriculture or created feeding areas. The hunter picks over numerous animals taking the time to debate the width/mass and score of numerous ones before deciding which he'll finally shoot. I don't think shooting straight is an accomplishment. I'm not saying that guy shouldn't be able to do this or that the land owner or guide shouldn't sell the right. It's just that being able to hit your target after picking exactly the one you want to kill with relatively little physical effort involved just doesn't rate as much of an accomplishment to me. But you should be allowed to do it to your heats content if it works for you.
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on March 18, 2009, 11:29:55 AM
Post by: GoldTip on March 18, 2009, 11:31:59 AM
But, I have no qualms with someone who puts in every year and finally draws that New mexico big bull tag and hires an outfitter. Would he probably be more satisfied with the hunt if he killed a 390 bull all on his own, I know I would, but it doesn't mean everyone else would? Well some would and some wouldn't feel any more satisfaction with a DIY for that bull than if they did it guided. Truly as long as it's legal, it doesn't matter to me. Some just don't have the time to put into scouting another state, especially one that far away. I say to each their own, as long as it's legal.
Post by: jjhunter on March 18, 2009, 11:40:47 AM
You obviously haven't seen some of my buddies shoot! :chuckle:
I obviously wasn't talking about elk ranches, high fence, governor's tags, or even places like the Heaton Ranch. I am just saying that there is no such thing as a slam-dunk 400" bull or 200" deer shot legally during a regular, state-mandated season.
Post by: Coasthunterjay on March 18, 2009, 11:50:45 AM
I have been guiding big game animals for about eight years and for a well known outfitter for three years now and i can tell you that regardless or not every person i have ever guided has been proud of what they shot or even just the experiance they had with us....
I personnely hunt completely different properties on the oppisite side of the state than where i guide and i can say really the only benefit of guided hunts is for people who are very busy and just dont have enough time to scout out a property and to see if there property has potential game on it or not.
Scouting and finding properties that have good game can take years. I know this personnely myself.....took me several years to find the animals that i hunt and how they act.... As a guide we try to take the guessing out of the hunt. We make sure that all guys that are with us have a good time. For some people getting an animal is the only way they can have a good time, to others its just being there with us in the outdoors...... Good company, good stories, and a higher possability of getting a good animal, if not a trophy animal. Also in the mean time we raise there possability of getting an animal by allowing them to hunt several properties with alot of diffeent communities of animals......
Some guys actually just like the conversaion and the companionship they get with the guides and outfitters. But its all in the end when there leaving that you really know whether they had a good time or not....Most guys dont want to leave....i dont blame em. Sometimes i dont want the guys to leave also. We really have a good time!
Either way you should be proud of any animal you get...regardless of whether it was guided or not....it really just depends on the person who gets it....the bigger person is the one who doesnt get an animal and still has the time of there lives.
But then again... :twocents:
Post by: Buckrub on March 18, 2009, 11:51:01 AM
I don't think shooting straight is an accomplishment.
You obviously haven't seen some of my buddies shoot! :chuckle:
I obviously wasn't talking about elk ranches, high fence, governor's tags, or even places like the Heaton Ranch. I am just saying that there is no such thing as a slam-dunk 400" bull or 200" deer shot legally during a regular, state-mandated season.
There is always the possibility of a trophy public land animal. Slam Dunk doesn't happen.
I have been on quite a few drop camps and guided hunts, some good and some a complete joke.
I don't hunt high fence hunts and haven't found any guided hunts that didn't involve some hard work and a bit of luck.
I see nothing wrong with guided hunts....high fence wouldn't be considered hunting and an animal doesn't qualify for a record book.
I have had some of my best hunts on drop camp wilderness hunts, self guided.
Post by: jjhunter on March 18, 2009, 12:19:40 PM
Goldtip, I have some hunting videos that show BC goat hunts. Those can be intense to say the least!
Post by: boneaddict on March 18, 2009, 12:50:22 PM
Post by: jackelope on March 18, 2009, 02:46:47 PM
thats awesome.
Post by: Jeremiah P on March 18, 2009, 04:55:53 PM
Post by: whacker1 on March 18, 2009, 05:14:32 PM
Distinct difference between - high fence private land & everything else outside High fenced private land. My biggest qualms with guided hunts has been envy.... I think I am envious, because I can't afford to go on the types of hunts I would like to in BC, the Bob Marshall wilderness, and other remote areas.
I can say on the limited guided fishing that I have done that I don't prize those fish caught with the guide quite like I do when it is completely do it myself. Not to knock the guide or the experience, because he is a close friend, just a different experience. I think this has slightly jaded me on some guided hunts. I prefer to do it myself or drop camp without guides, because I think I enjoy that more than with guided help. Not knocking those that guide or that pay for guides, because I think I would like to do both from year to year, but as of right now I am DIY, because of $$$$.
My close friends paid $$$$$ for a guided hunt in the Bob Marshall wilderness last year. Guide's wife got terminally sick, and so owner of guide service filled in as guide. They saw very few animals, didn't bring any deer or elk home, and overall poor experience. So nothing is a slam dunk. He still chooses to mix up his time between guides and DIY. He just won't be going with that particular outfitter again.
Coast - who do you guide for & where?
Post by: Kent Hunter on March 19, 2009, 04:20:38 PM
Post by: oneezreiter on March 20, 2009, 10:42:41 AM
Post by: huntnphool on March 31, 2009, 12:50:06 AM
Post by: Coasthunterjay on March 31, 2009, 01:29:20 PM
me neither, who do you guide for?
thats awesome.
Yeah i have been guiding for Joe at Sherman creek outfitters for now 3 years, And in the blues for a few years before that. But i was raised up here and have done very well for myself since i was a little kid so i kind of like to just share it with the rest when i get a chance....but i still come off as a young buck to everyone untill you get me in the woods...Thats my territory..... But the guiding is just part time. I am still in the military so that is always first, but whatever time i can get off and help i do...Joes a good outfitter to work for and i enjoy helping him out......
Post by: whacker1 on March 31, 2009, 02:49:04 PM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on March 31, 2009, 05:08:50 PM
I can imagine that hiring a hunting guide for an area you don't know would be much the same.
Post by: TheHunt on March 31, 2009, 05:21:47 PM
Post by: bow-n-head on March 31, 2009, 05:24:37 PM
Post by: norsepeak on March 31, 2009, 08:19:51 PM
Post by: bow-n-head on April 01, 2009, 06:48:13 PM
Post by: captbly on April 02, 2009, 12:25:49 PM
Post by: huntnphool on April 02, 2009, 01:50:02 PM
Post by: JoshT on April 02, 2009, 01:59:47 PM
I don't have anything against guides... except for the above mentioned locking down of land... or those that act like they own a particular part of the wilderness. I don't have anything against guys hunting with guides... except for the high fence bull schitt. That just ain't why I'm in the woods... I don't want anyone doing any part of the hunting for me, unless it's a buddy that I can repay by doing the same for him.
I'm sure you can learn a lot from a guide... but for 4k-6k I can take a month off work and spend that time learing a couple square miles of wilderness. Just becuase you run around with a guy whos job it is to find critters... doesn't mean you'll learn a whole lot. Learning is a state of mind... and that state of mind is a lot easier to aquire when it's you doing the work... rather than just tagging a long.
Post by: Blacktail99 on April 02, 2009, 06:38:11 PM
Post by: Gutpile on April 02, 2009, 06:45:34 PM
Now that said, if a guy wants to do it, fine. But it shouldn't be ranked with a truly wild deer.
Post by: Alan K on April 02, 2009, 07:32:37 PM
Quote
I'd rather shoot a doe on a DIY public land hunt... than a 180" buck that someone else found for me.
Amen to that. If people are fine with doing it though, more power to them. It wouldn't be rewarding to me but if it is to them so be it.
It does however irritate me a bit that the record books are flooded with private land and leased land animals. I like to look at the monsters that people have taken doing it the same way I do. 100% open to public land.
Post by: Alan K on April 02, 2009, 07:36:33 PM
A guy I hunt with went on a meat hunt in Canada for moose a few years back, and they were putting a stalk on a decent little bull (great bull on a meat hunt) in some reprod. The thing busted 'em and they had about 2 seconds to get a shot off. Unfortunately he couldn't because the guide was ahead of him, and they never saw the bull again for the rest of the hunt.
Post by: lokidog on April 03, 2009, 10:42:29 AM
Did one guided hunt in WY. I worked hard for my deer because my guide was a bit lame, and I wanted to work hard. My mom wasn't having much luck finding a nice deer so near the end she was brought over to an alfalfa field and waited for them to come in to feed in the eve. She picked out her buck like sorting through the packs of bacon at the store. She enjoyed her hunt. I enjoyed my hunt but would not have as much had I gotten my deer like she got hers. I had done a DIY doe hunt in WY years ago and am as proud or more of that deer than the buck I got guided.
Post by: fc2038 on April 03, 2009, 11:10:15 AM