Post by: flyfishWA on September 25, 2018, 04:51:51 PM
Post by: 3nails on September 25, 2018, 04:58:36 PM
Post by: KP-Skagit on September 25, 2018, 05:20:24 PM
Post by: RadSav on September 25, 2018, 05:30:44 PM
I do think some younger bucks get confused by the smell of elk estrus and start looking way before it's time. But good bucks doing it in late September...very odd. Last year was early too, but I didn't see any cruisers until the end of Muzzy season last year. Peak rut last year seemed the same as usual though.
Post by: slowhand on September 25, 2018, 05:34:16 PM
Love The is the Rut starting Thread.
Tag
It's still September LOL
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on September 25, 2018, 05:35:56 PM
This is possibly the hardest time all year to catch a decent buck out in the daylight. For the next 3 to 4 weeks, POOF, almost completely nocturnal. Shedding rubs are done and territory rubs are a couple weeks out.
:yeah:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on September 25, 2018, 05:48:28 PM
LOL!!!Christmas stuff has been out at Walmart since last week, so things are happening early this year.
Love The is the Rut starting Thread.
Tag
It's still September LOL
Post by: 3nails on September 25, 2018, 07:23:36 PM
Not to in anyway contradict 3nails as this is what I generally see but I have a friend who knows his deer that saw a massive 3 point chasing a lone doe outside of Woolley last week. Neck was even swelled up.I almost commented about how early city deer seem to rut. I don't know what it is but every year I see and hear about it going only to find nothing happening in the hills.
Post by: buggy on September 25, 2018, 07:25:30 PM
Post by: brew on September 25, 2018, 07:32:36 PM
Post by: RadSav on September 25, 2018, 08:46:43 PM
don't know what this means but recently saw a real nice blacktail buck that was as wide as his ears skylined about 300 yards away with 6 does. kinda wierd that none of the does had any fawns
Think we are starting to see the signs of the cougar population on the westside. And of course our late quotas are a complete joke. Very few fawns or calves the past few years. I know some guys in S Central who see more cats per year than they do fawns.
Post by: N7XW on September 25, 2018, 08:57:42 PM
Post by: lokidog on September 25, 2018, 10:11:47 PM
Post by: grundy53 on September 25, 2018, 10:13:44 PM
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Post by: fishnfur on September 25, 2018, 10:31:48 PM
don't know what this means but recently saw a real nice blacktail buck that was as wide as his ears skylined about 300 yards away with 6 does. kinda wierd that none of the does had any fawns
Seems like the fawns don't hang so tight to mama once they get about 5 months old. I saw a weird goings on this AM: I saw a couple of fawns get spooked out of a creek bed by the car in front of me as I drove on a main road that intersects nearby with HWY 4 in W. Longview. The two fawns were running berserk style, right along the side of the road, like their tails were on fire. One was clearly a normal sized fawn for this time of year. He ran full speed right next to my truck for awhile but then pulled up after about 50 yards and gave me the stink eye. I had to stop for the upcoming stoplight and could only watch as the second fawn, which was absolutely tiny and with remnant spotting on his sides, as he continued his high-octane sprint out into highway traffic. Luck was on his side as he jumped between cars and log trucks and finally cleared the far side of the road and disappeared from view. Clearly the two were not of the same mother but they were off doing young deer stuff without parental supervision. I doubt the little one had even been weaned yet.
Anyways, the pre-rut really starts once the velvet is gone. I would assume that they start play jousting and testing out the other bucks a bit shortly thereafter. The earliest I've heard them raking antlers in the woods was a couple of years ago on the last day of muzzy elk - the end of September. Seeking and chasing phases of the rut often seem to be spotty and differ by regions and even smaller areas. It can be red hot in one area and completely dead fifty miles away. If there is an early rut (early estrus), keep your eyes open starting around the 12th of October. That is often the time of the season that members here start posting photos of nice bucks showing up in broad daylight in unusual places. Members here have also reported seeing some breeding going on as early as the 20th or so of October. The majority of the hunting action typically occurs in the last few days of October, though last year, I heard more gunshots in the woods (down here) on the 18th of October than on any other day in the entire season. Go figure? :dunno: The peak of the rut is still sometime in early-mid November.
Post by: Slaysthefish on September 26, 2018, 01:50:59 PM
Post by: Mallardmasher on September 26, 2018, 02:05:12 PM
Post by: lokidog on September 26, 2018, 03:13:10 PM
Post by: Slaysthefish on September 28, 2018, 08:09:38 AM
Post by: aman on September 28, 2018, 09:36:52 AM
I have been getting over 500 pics a night, this full moon has them totally nocturnal.
Whoa!!!! very cool photo
Post by: slowhand on September 28, 2018, 09:42:26 AM
I have been getting over 500 pics a night, this full moon has them totally nocturnal.
Whoa!!!! very cool photo
Post by: lokidog on September 28, 2018, 09:49:07 AM
Post by: fishnfur on September 30, 2018, 12:13:51 AM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on September 30, 2018, 08:46:39 AM
Post by: Slaysthefish on October 01, 2018, 08:51:47 AM
The wife showed me a Facebook video tonight of a big bodied BT buck that ran right through the football field, 120 yards plus, right in the middle of a high school game up in Coupeville/Whidbey Is. tonight. The ref. was running after the thing trying to get it off the field. I thinks to myself: "Hmmmm, that ain't normal".
I was at that game, it was pretty cool because Coupeville was running the ball in at the same time in the same direction the deer was running.
Post by: fishnfur on October 01, 2018, 08:23:55 PM
Saw 3 doe, 4 fawns, 3 yearlings and a button buck last night within a 10 minute period. Had a yearling walk out onto my deck to raid my apple stash that I brought up north with me just after dark. It freaked when I threw it an apple. Sat in my elevated blind for 8 hours today. Didn't see squat. Moved to another blind for the evening. No squat there either. :(
Post by: slowhand on October 01, 2018, 10:26:15 PM
Nothing nothing nothing
And then it happens
Or it doesn’t, lol
Post by: fishnfur on October 02, 2018, 07:31:08 PM
Post by: slowhand on October 02, 2018, 09:14:43 PM
Well it happened this morning. Two bucks waiting for me in front of my blind at first light. Killed the wrong one. Not surprisingly, he was showing absolutely no visible signs of being rutty. Tarsals/metatarsals were small and didn't stink at all.Pictures!!!!!
Post by: pd on October 02, 2018, 11:07:44 PM
Well it happened this morning. Two bucks waiting for me in front of my blind at first light. Killed the wrong one. Not surprisingly, he was showing absolutely no visible signs of being rutty. Tarsals/metatarsals were small and didn't stink at all.
Nice!
Post by: RB on October 03, 2018, 07:03:43 AM
I have been getting over 500 pics a night, this full moon has them totally nocturnal.
:yike: Holy cow those are some nice Blacktails! :tup:
Post by: Slaysthefish on October 03, 2018, 07:56:44 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 14, 2018, 11:33:57 AM
Post by: PolarBear on October 14, 2018, 12:00:43 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 14, 2018, 01:01:16 PM
Post by: grundy53 on October 14, 2018, 04:12:33 PM
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Post by: aman on October 14, 2018, 04:13:32 PM
Heard half a dozen shots 5 minutes after shooting hours on Saturday and haven't heard anything since.
I'm an idiot and took vacation this week....
Post by: WAnoob on October 14, 2018, 04:27:24 PM
I didn't see a single buck but found lot of fresh sign. I think they are very nocturnal now.
Heard half a dozen shots 5 minutes after shooting hours on Saturday and haven't heard anything since.
I'm an idiot and took vacation this week....
Same here, no bucks but lots of fresh tracks this morning.
Post by: fishnfur on October 14, 2018, 05:28:34 PM
Yeah, I'm getting the feeling that this is going to be a year without a significant early estrus, though it's hard to tell with so few members posting. If the weather stays like this, the bucks may be bedding all day and seeking/chasing in the dark, at least until late in the month.
I posted the message above and 30 minutes later the wife shows me a Facebook post about a spike that got picked off by a car at midday in the middle of town on the four-lane Ocean Beach Highway. He musta been on the scent trail of something to go walking into traffic in that area of commerce.
Post by: WAnoob on October 14, 2018, 05:31:29 PM
Yeah, I'm getting the feeling that this is going to be a year without a significant early estrus, though it's hard to tell with so few members posting. If the weather stays like this, the bucks may be bedding all day and seeking/chasing in the dark, at least until late in the month.
I posted the message above and 30 minutes later the wife shows me a Facebook post about a spike that got picked off by a car at midday in the middle of town on the four-lane Ocean Beach Highway. He musta been on the scent trail of something to go walking into traffic in that area of commerce.
Hard to say but I love your optimism! On Friday I saw a giant 6 point laying under a tree next to the I-5 just hanging out, Bellingham has some monsters up here but they know where they cant be hunted!
Post by: fishnfur on October 14, 2018, 09:30:05 PM
Post by: BB11b on October 15, 2018, 01:24:54 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: RadSav on October 15, 2018, 02:45:13 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 15, 2018, 05:10:45 AM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 15, 2018, 06:57:41 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 15, 2018, 10:49:01 PM
Need some dang weather! We saw a good buck coming out on Saturday four minutes after legal shooting light. Neck starting to swell, he definitely looked like he was in search mode. Had hopes for today with the major temp drop up where we were at. But that dang yellow orb still keeping them in the dog hair during daylight. Sucks that the evil orb is suppose to stay with us through next weekend too. If we can get a little storm come through I think it will change in a big hurry. Hopefully that happens before Halloween.
SW WA - LONG TERM FORECAST...Thursday night through Monday...High pressure looks to
remain over the Pacific Northwest through the weekend. This will
likely keep the offshore flow going and allow temperatures to remain
above normal. The upper level ridge will start to shift east late in
the weekend ahead of an approaching upper level trough. Models
continue to hint at the possibility of rain and cooler temperatures
returning to the region early next week as a series of frontal
systems move into the forecast area. /64
Post by: PolarBear on October 16, 2018, 04:00:06 AM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 16, 2018, 10:34:53 AM
Post by: slowhand on October 16, 2018, 11:51:04 AM
Post by: WAnoob on October 16, 2018, 12:11:29 PM
Post by: Slaysthefish on October 16, 2018, 12:32:10 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 16, 2018, 12:43:45 PM
Vacation for me starts Friday at 3pm 10days to get it done :IBCOOL:
We're starting an office pool to guess the date you tag out. I've got the 20th! I figure you'd be done passing on small boys after day one and kill the first masher that comes along Saturday. Good luck! Make me rich! :chuckle:
Post by: predatorG on October 16, 2018, 03:26:41 PM
Need some dang weather! We saw a good buck coming out on Saturday four minutes after legal shooting light. Neck starting to swell, he definitely looked like he was in search mode. Had hopes for today with the major temp drop up where we were at. But that dang yellow orb still keeping them in the dog hair during daylight. Sucks that the evil orb is suppose to stay with us through next weekend too. If we can get a little storm come through I think it will change in a big hurry. Hopefully that happens before Halloween.
Are you out there with a bow?
When I first started being on this thread my favorite things to see were RadSav posts because they were always so full of Blacktail and Archery Knowledge. :tup:
Post by: predatorG on October 16, 2018, 03:31:29 PM
Both my Dad and my brother shot bears this year behind our house, so hopefully that really helps fawn numbers in the future. We saw more deer last year than all previous years hunting here combined, and this year seems to have an equally good population. I’m coming back for Christmas and am going to get the second half of December to hunt, fingers are crossed I get lucky. No early deer season or elk season for me, and 15 days of potential hunting just doesn’t seem like the amount of hunting that my soul needs in a season.
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 16, 2018, 04:47:56 PM
Vacation for me starts Friday at 3pm 10days to get it done :IBCOOL:
We're starting an office pool to guess the date you tag out. I've got the 20th! I figure you'd be done passing on small boys after day one and kill the first masher that comes along Saturday. Good luck! Make me rich! :chuckle:
Edit: how much is it worth if I tag out on the 20th and whats my cut? :chuckle:
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on October 16, 2018, 06:17:41 PM
Post by: RadSav on October 16, 2018, 08:51:18 PM
Need some dang weather! We saw a good buck coming out on Saturday four minutes after legal shooting light. Neck starting to swell, he definitely looked like he was in search mode. Had hopes for today with the major temp drop up where we were at. But that dang yellow orb still keeping them in the dog hair during daylight. Sucks that the evil orb is suppose to stay with us through next weekend too. If we can get a little storm come through I think it will change in a big hurry. Hopefully that happens before Halloween.
Are you out there with a bow?
When I first started being on this thread my favorite things to see were RadSav posts because they were always so full of Blacktail and Archery Knowledge. :tup:
No, wife has multi-season. She did hunt muzzy season with her bow, but now with rifle. I got too excited to shoot something with my bendy bow and 2018 XX75's this year. So I whacked one early.
Post by: pd on October 16, 2018, 09:43:15 PM
Next week, mid-week, looks good. This weekend looks too nice.
Post by: fishnfur on October 16, 2018, 11:26:34 PM
98520 - I could only get my kids to join in on the office pool. Nickle buy-in. Winner gets 65 cents! Your cut is a couple nice backstraps and tenderloins, grilled to perfection!
Welcome back RS. Missed ya!
Post by: RadSav on October 17, 2018, 03:40:25 AM
I am with RadSav on this one: I am waiting for some nasty weather. At least some rain, preferably some fog, too.
Next week, mid-week, looks good. This weekend looks too nice.
We've killed some real good bucks in sunny weather. But it was REALLY cold at night. 37 degrees just isn't enough. Fog would help for sure. Nice thing is we get a late rifle hunt. May be a short season, but it's pretty much rut no matter the weather!! And if the rut goes late...No cow hunters in the Winston during late bow. That should be crazy good if this sunny weather pushes things back another week or two! Although it burns my balls that we no longer get a late Toutle archery. That used to be my favorite.
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on October 17, 2018, 05:53:34 AM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 17, 2018, 08:31:07 AM
(https://storage04.dropshots.com/photos8000/photos/1401964/20181017/x_112909.jpg)
(https://storage04.dropshots.com/photos8000/photos/1401964/20181017/x_113019.jpg)
Post by: WSU on October 17, 2018, 08:38:57 AM
Post by: Buckmark on October 17, 2018, 08:59:15 AM
Got a spike and 2 point on my cam a week ago that are lets say the spike is practicing on the 2 point :yike: :chuckle:
Post by: Slaysthefish on October 17, 2018, 10:58:05 AM
Post by: PolarBear on October 17, 2018, 07:54:44 PM
Woke up very early this morning (couldn't sleep worth a damn) so showered, fed the dog pack, and headed into work around 4:40. On the way in on Vail Road (I live just outside the big town of Rainier), I saw a "dandy" BT buck standing by the side of the hardball looking longingly over the road and into farmer Frank's cattle pasture. A quick glance to that side of the road showed me what I had thought, a few pretty eyed does were having breakfast along the edge of the pasture. Well it seems this buck is feeling something as he certainly was doing his best version of "why did... or would.... the chicken, err, buck cross the road". He wasn't returning from feed to bed across the road I'm pretty sure; I believe he was "twinging" a bit.It wasn't my pasture was it?
Post by: fishnfur on October 17, 2018, 10:20:05 PM
Post by: steeleywhopper on October 18, 2018, 06:48:46 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 18, 2018, 11:53:58 AM
Post by: Spuddieselwwu on October 18, 2018, 09:22:32 PM
She's such a tease! :chuckle:
You hunting weyco?
Post by: frogman338 on October 18, 2018, 10:05:05 PM
Post by: aman on October 18, 2018, 10:41:13 PM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 19, 2018, 06:27:07 AM
I've spent a decent amount of time in Weyco land this week without seeing much day time activity. I would recommend waiting until a week or so for the rut.
Watch the openings in reprod, and in 3+ year old cuts glass closely next to big stumps on the shade side, they are there just not a ton of movement
Post by: CavemantheHunter on October 19, 2018, 06:39:36 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 19, 2018, 10:24:09 PM
I went out for a quick look in the woods today just for fun, video camera in hand. Worked my way up a small ridgeline with diagonal winds working sideways and up. Heard an animal get up and move off deeper into the woods once my scent was blowing directly that way. Moments later I peeked over the ridge in the other direction, down a steep slope of ferns and trees. An unseen deer immediately made a noisy exit near the base of the hill. Alder and fir limbs obscured my view without binocs. so I have no clue on gender. Probably a doe considering how low on the hill it was. A little farther up, I found good evidence of many large fresh deer tracks in the forest duff going off in many directions. Seems like there's still deer in the woods. It's just a matter of time.
Not surprisingly, there were a lot of singles and groups of hunters heading into DNR lands this afternoon as I left. I won't miss that "fun" this season.
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 20, 2018, 06:48:55 AM
Post by: PolarBear on October 20, 2018, 08:39:44 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 20, 2018, 08:42:48 AM
Seen 6 does being pushed around by a spike last night.
Today's the day!!!! :IBCOOL: :IBCOOL: :chuckle:
0940: Just heard someone pop off a shot a ways up above our house in town. Backyard buck takes a dirt nap!
Post by: BigGoonTuna on October 20, 2018, 10:04:41 AM
Post by: h20hunter on October 20, 2018, 01:58:36 PM
Post by: PolarBear on October 20, 2018, 02:03:06 PM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 20, 2018, 03:51:35 PM
Seen 6 does being pushed around by a spike last night.
Today's the day!!!! :IBCOOL: :IBCOOL: :chuckle:
0940: Just heard someone pop off a shot a ways up above our house in town. Backyard buck takes a dirt nap!
My buddy got a spike today does that count :chuckle:
Post by: fishnfur on October 20, 2018, 08:03:12 PM
Are you getting your family and friends all tagged out first again this year? I could use a few friends like you. Looking forward to your success photo soon.
Post by: Mallardmasher on October 21, 2018, 12:46:06 AM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 21, 2018, 06:29:49 AM
So what you're sayin' is that I'm not getting my hands on that 65 cents, huh? >:( >:(
Are you getting your family and friends all tagged out first again this year? I could use a few friends like you. Looking forward to your success photo soon.
Yeah trying to...got the 2 rookies their spikes...hope we get some more deer movement it's been slloooww
Post by: fishnfur on October 21, 2018, 08:06:05 AM
Both my buddies kids tagged out today, on stinky bucks, lots of grunting and fighting and pushing does today, Buck movement all day. Starting to s e some big rubs to go with it. Good luck to all
There's a good report. Must be a doe or two poppin' out eggs in your woods. Yesterday was essentially a perfect three weeks till the expected peak of the rut - right in line with the expected 19 - 22 days prior to the second (and normally successful mating) estrus.
Where are those masher four-points?
Post by: PolarBear on October 21, 2018, 08:06:44 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 21, 2018, 08:16:07 AM
Post by: lokidog on October 21, 2018, 08:31:55 AM
Post by: RadSav on October 21, 2018, 09:47:43 AM
We weren't lucky enough to see any bucks. But we were seeing buck tracks with about half the does tracks headed for the breeding grounds. If I was a guy looking for a buck this year I'd start Monday telling the boss I feel like I'm getting sick. If rain comes Wednesday or Thursday - "Sorry, I can't make it in today!"
If you are wanting broadheads or peep sights shipped on Thursday...you're going to be SOL! We'll be hunting!
Post by: fishnfur on October 21, 2018, 05:40:36 PM
Post by: hawks33 on October 21, 2018, 06:57:30 PM
Post by: pope on October 21, 2018, 08:31:12 PM
Post by: HarboritE on October 21, 2018, 08:41:22 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 21, 2018, 08:59:30 PM
Post by: 180-GRAIN on October 21, 2018, 09:15:20 PM
Post by: acc on October 22, 2018, 05:37:37 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 22, 2018, 05:45:06 AM
Post by: 180-GRAIN on October 22, 2018, 07:53:53 AM
Post by: Molon5labe on October 22, 2018, 07:58:12 AM
Walked out the door at 4am and could hear a buck grunting in the back yard. Shined a light out there and a big 4 point and a 3 point were rutting a doe. Still not dumb rut but dodging her around a little. They stopped and cracked antlers a little but nothing to serious yet.
let me know if you need some deer control up there
Post by: 180-GRAIN on October 22, 2018, 08:38:39 AM
Walked out the door at 4am and could hear a buck grunting in the back yard. Shined a light out there and a big 4 point and a 3 point were rutting a doe. Still not dumb rut but dodging her around a little. They stopped and cracked antlers a little but nothing to serious yet.
let me know if you need some deer control up there
Guess I could start auctioning off porch sits lol. How much am I offered for tonight :chuckle:
Post by: Spuddieselwwu on October 22, 2018, 07:12:59 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 22, 2018, 07:16:12 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 22, 2018, 08:07:00 PM
Reviewed backyard cam today. The night of the 21st, the day when several smaller bucks were reported shot across the westside, my cam picked up a forkie standing guard on a couple of does feeding on apples. Not harrassing them, just hanging off in the distance, waiting. One of the does may have been hot. Her tail was straight out in all vids. It's tough to tell though, the tails on both seem to stick straight out whenever they feed. He arrived first, kind of checks the place out, then they followed moments later. They left with him in tow.
Post by: stackemup on October 23, 2018, 12:35:54 PM
Post by: npaull on October 23, 2018, 12:56:32 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 23, 2018, 02:48:46 PM
Post by: ThurstonCokid on October 23, 2018, 02:54:01 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: fishnfur on October 23, 2018, 02:56:25 PM
Post by: npaull on October 23, 2018, 02:56:32 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 23, 2018, 02:58:21 PM
Post by: npaull on October 23, 2018, 06:19:51 PM
Post by: The100Road on October 23, 2018, 06:36:38 PM
Post by: acc on October 23, 2018, 06:37:55 PM
Post by: flyfishWA on October 23, 2018, 08:30:03 PM
Post by: Bowcrazy on October 23, 2018, 08:48:16 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 23, 2018, 08:49:37 PM
The rubs on Alder on the previous page are pretty typical of a buck hitting an alder. Those are pretty nice buck rubs - somewhere between knee level up to about belt level. Above that height, they loose the ability to really bear down on the tree with their legs and body mass. Unless you're in an area that no way, no how has elk, then I'm still betting on elk. If you examine the tree, you'll find hair of the animal that hit that tree. Long and black - elk. Short and gray - buck. You may find both types on one tree too. Elk high, deer low.
Bobcat has some killer vids of several bucks rubbing in a rut hole. Rare footage. I saved them on a different computer which died and went to PC heaven.
Post by: JakeLand on October 23, 2018, 09:04:12 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 23, 2018, 09:06:36 PM
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,184441.msg2436078.html#msg2436078
Post by: fishnfur on October 23, 2018, 09:09:38 PM
Those look very easily a buck rub ! Get squared up way before daylight and stay until after dark
You should be posting up a masher here pretty soon. What's the word? Still slow in your neck of the woods?
Here's a Youtube video of a young WT rubbing a tree. Very similar to Bobcat's footage. Rubbing starts at 2:35 into the vid:
Post by: Turner89 on October 23, 2018, 10:08:06 PM
Those look very easily a buck rub ! Get squared up way before daylight and stay until after dark:yeah: I found a rub similar to that in my area a few years back that a buck did get up on his back legs a bit. You could see where is back hooves were really planted into the ground. I dont have pictures of the buck at that rub, but I believe the tree killer is on my wall right now. :chuckle:
I've never seen an elk in that area.
I hope you get him....that tree didn't deserve that :dunno:
Post by: fishnfur on October 23, 2018, 10:43:16 PM
I had to dig a bit through last years hunting pics. Found the one with buck rub down low and bull rub up high, verified by hair ID. Often the two rubs are connected. Classic.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 24, 2018, 05:08:35 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 24, 2018, 09:59:21 AM
Post by: 180-GRAIN on October 24, 2018, 10:36:27 AM
Post by: RadSav on October 24, 2018, 01:43:05 PM
Despite the forecast for rain, the temperatures are apparently going to stay pretty mild in the lowlands through the weekend. High of 63, low of 46. Generally between 50 and 60 degrees throughout. Somewhere around an inch of rain is expected (down here) over the next four days. Hopefully it is enough to get the deer up and moving during heavier showers.
Not ideal, but as long as the green leaves are falling, there is moisture and the cover is thick enough to severely block out the moon...should be enough.
Post by: D-Rock425 on October 24, 2018, 02:05:30 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 24, 2018, 02:19:51 PM
Despite the forecast for rain, the temperatures are apparently going to stay pretty mild in the lowlands through the weekend. High of 63, low of 46. Generally between 50 and 60 degrees throughout. Somewhere around an inch of rain is expected (down here) over the next four days. Hopefully it is enough to get the deer up and moving during heavier showers.
Not ideal, but as long as the green leaves are falling, there is moisture and the cover is thick enough to severely block out the moon...should be enough.
Alright, you've peaked my interest. You've mentioned green leaves falling twice. I'm curious what this signifies in your finely tuned hunter brain (that I am quite obviously oblivious to) (?). Do you have a moment (or an hour- depending on the length of the answer) to elucidate?
Post by: 7mmfan on October 24, 2018, 02:21:08 PM
Despite the forecast for rain, the temperatures are apparently going to stay pretty mild in the lowlands through the weekend. High of 63, low of 46. Generally between 50 and 60 degrees throughout. Somewhere around an inch of rain is expected (down here) over the next four days. Hopefully it is enough to get the deer up and moving during heavier showers.
Not ideal, but as long as the green leaves are falling, there is moisture and the cover is thick enough to severely block out the moon...should be enough.
Alright, you've peaked my interest. You've mentioned green leaves falling twice. I'm curious what this signifies in your finely tuned hunter brain (that I am quite obviously oblivious to) (?). Do you have a moment (or an hour- depending on the length of the answer) to elucidate?
Wind and heavy rain knock green leaves down...
Post by: fishnfur on October 24, 2018, 02:24:16 PM
Post by: RadSav on October 24, 2018, 02:55:03 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on October 24, 2018, 03:39:31 PM
Does congregate toward meaty alder leaves from reasonably mature trees. Not ones that have turned color and no longer contain essential nutrients, but full thick meaty ones. Usually this takes a freeze, wind and rain to get them off the trees in good enough shape for the does to feed on them in good numbers. These green leaves tend to pull the does (and rutting bucks) out of the rabbit holes and into open areas. I assume it is coincidence that it happens at the same time the does hit estrus. But it always makes me wonder if she needs something those leaves possess during her cycle. Not sure I have ever killed an early rut blacktail that wasn't 75-80% full on green leaves.
That is a tidbit of information worth a lot. Thanks for sharing Rad.
Post by: savagehunter on October 24, 2018, 03:57:08 PM
Post by: flyfishWA on October 24, 2018, 04:06:53 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 24, 2018, 04:08:39 PM
Does congregate toward meaty alder leaves from reasonably mature trees. Not ones that have turned color and no longer contain essential nutrients, but full thick meaty ones. Usually this takes a freeze, wind and rain to get them off the trees in good enough shape for the does to feed on them in good numbers. These green leaves tend to pull the does (and rutting bucks) out of the rabbit holes and into open areas. I assume it is coincidence that it happens at the same time the does hit estrus. But it always makes me wonder if she needs something those leaves possess during her cycle. Not sure I have ever killed an early rut blacktail that wasn't 75-80% full on green leaves.
That makes total sense. I thought that Big Leaf Maple leaves were one of the big draws for them in the fall. They don't come off green though, and they are pretty well down and brown or all yellow at this time of the season. It makes sense that green Alder leaves would be preferable. Very likely a higher protein content. Someday I'll look that up.
Regarding the dietary needs of a doe at that time, you might be on to something. I wonder though, Alder is not available in all areas throughout the range of BTs. Perhaps some other local browse makes up for the lack of whatever magic might be in Alder? I know for certain that come November, BT and Elk suddenly begin browsing Cedar again, after laying off it sometime in the previous May. Western Red Cedar is very high in Calcium, which is obviously in high demand in females carrying developing fetuses, so it seems to make sense that they use it more during the gestation period. Then again, it may be that it is just the best tasting green stuff around to eat in the winter. Once some other better tasting plant comes green in the spring, they move on from the Cedar.
Thanks for the schooling RS.
Post by: fishnfur on October 24, 2018, 04:47:17 PM
Copy and paste created a lot of typos, but it is still understandable: ( Higher fats and carbs, good protein than during the growing season. Very good pre-winter food source.)
"Chemical Composition and Deer Browsing of Red Alder Foliage"
Discussion and Conclusions
Results show that in June when
utilization by deer was minimal,
red alder leaves contained adequate
levels of minerals, available carbohydrates,
protein, and fats to satisfy
the nutritional needs of herbivores,
including deer (Maynard 1951) . The
leaves were also succulent, moderately
acidic, had enough roughage as shawn
by the contents of fiber and lignin,
and contained nontoxic levels of
nitrates as well as fatty acids which
are usually found in palatable plants.
The total phenols in the leaves,
however, were quite high; they anounted
to over 10 percent of the dry natter
and greatly exceeded levels found in
plants bravsed by black-tailed deer
in winter (Radwan and Crouch 1974) .
Comparison of the June and
Septerrber leaves indicated many variations
in most chemical constituents.
Thus, as leaves grew older and becane
more preferred by deer in Septenber,
moisture, acidity, protein, and phenols
had decreased, while available carbohydrates
and fats were increased.
Fatty acids also changed in their
conposition during the sane period of
tine. Cbviousl y, it is impossible to
state which change or conbination of
changes were actually responsible for
the increased preference or the nechanism
by which any of these factors were
operating. One nay speculate, havever,
that changes in fats and phenols were
the irr[x::>rtant factors. That changes
in these two leaf constituents were
much greater than those shawn by renaining
constituents tends to support
this speculation. Crude fat also is
recognized as a high energy food source
for animals, and associations of high
fat contents in forages with high
preferenoe by sone animals have b
reported (Hardison et al. 1954, Iouw
et ale 1967) . Phenols, on the other
hand, have been generally considered
as defense conpounds which protect
plants from their natural enemies,
including herbivorǜs (Levin 1971) .
Furthernore, tannins, which are
estimated here as total phenols,
have been shawn to reduce palatability
and digestibility of some
plants in ruminants (Wilkins et ale
1953, Donnelly and Anthony 1973) ;
and their great decline in Septerrber
could very well account for the increased
utilization of the leaves in
the fall.
Factors affecting animal preferences
for plants are extrerrely varied
and conplex. Accordingly, we recognize
that chemical constituents other than
those reported here or nonchemical
factors such as differences in availability
of preferred food nay have
influenced deer preference.
Post by: RadSav on October 24, 2018, 05:13:05 PM
If you can find these old skids next to reprod even better. Wife's largest two bucks we watched does run out of the alder to a flat spot in the reprod. In both cases there were bucks on them within ten minutes. I don't see the bucks cruising the skid roads, but rather cruising trails just off them. In these situations you need to know your wind. Thermals going down spend more time watching/glassing below the alders. Thermals rising spend more time glassing and watching above the alder.
We've actually seen bucks watch a doe feed until she is even with a good flat breeding spot. He then rushes in and pushes her to the flat. Often happens so fast you can't get a good shot. So, if we can, we try to setup in a position when watching these does where we can see into a flat and make that shot from our setup position. Sometimes that's looking into the timber. Sometimes it's looking into the reprod. And sometimes in steep country that's watching straight down the skid road.
In any case from here on out till the end of the season never just glass a doe and say, "Oh, it's just a doe" and move on. Stop, watch, observe and prepare! Might happen on the first doe you see, might be the 12th doe you see. But eventually it's going to happen if you remain diligent and don't get into a rush to move on. And never ignore a running doe ever, never ever!!
Post by: grundy53 on October 24, 2018, 05:38:14 PM
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Post by: hawks33 on October 24, 2018, 06:18:07 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 24, 2018, 06:43:53 PM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 24, 2018, 07:10:41 PM
Post by: RadSav on October 25, 2018, 08:37:59 PM
Post by: Turner89 on October 25, 2018, 09:34:29 PM
Ethan which buck would that be?My 2011 buck
Post by: lokidog on October 25, 2018, 11:11:13 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 25, 2018, 11:45:56 PM
Post by: PolarBear on October 26, 2018, 04:02:29 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 26, 2018, 05:18:52 AM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 26, 2018, 06:10:31 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 26, 2018, 06:27:58 AM
Post by: Martinhunter on October 26, 2018, 06:50:40 AM
One of our favorite bad weather walks is OLD skid roads with lots of more mature alders on each side. Low and slow until we see a doe feeding on the leaves. Then we just sit and watch. If after 15 minutes if she doesn't kicker her tail to the side or walk squatted we might move on and try to find another. But if she is showing those signs we'll stay on her till dark. I've probably seen more does mounted on skid roads than I have in alder groves and big timber combined.I agree 100%!!
If you can find these old skids next to reprod even better. Wife's largest two bucks we watched does run out of the alder to a flat spot in the reprod. In both cases there were bucks on them within ten minutes. I don't see the bucks cruising the skid roads, but rather cruising trails just off them. In these situations you need to know your wind. Thermals going down spend more time watching/glassing below the alders. Thermals rising spend more time glassing and watching above the alder.
We've actually seen bucks watch a doe feed until she is even with a good flat breeding spot. He then rushes in and pushes her to the flat. Often happens so fast you can't get a good shot. So, if we can, we try to setup in a position when watching these does where we can see into a flat and make that shot from our setup position. Sometimes that's looking into the timber. Sometimes it's looking into the reprod. And sometimes in steep country that's watching straight down the skid road.
In any case from here on out till the end of the season never just glass a doe and say, "Oh, it's just a doe" and move on. Stop, watch, observe and prepare! Might happen on the first doe you see, might be the 12th doe you see. But eventually it's going to happen if you remain diligent and don't get into a rush to move on. And never ignore a running doe ever, never ever!!
Post by: 180-GRAIN on October 26, 2018, 06:52:16 AM
Post by: Molon5labe on October 26, 2018, 07:28:44 AM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on October 26, 2018, 08:41:23 AM
If they are going to start throwing themselves at me like this, might have to go buy a license & a tag...
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 26, 2018, 08:53:39 AM
Post by: aman on October 26, 2018, 09:26:57 AM
Had this guy walk through the front yard this morning, then was seen chasing a doe a few mins later.
If they are going to start throwing themselves at me like this, might have to go buy a license & a tag...
Let me take care of that one for you. :)
Post by: hawks33 on October 26, 2018, 09:29:11 AM
Post by: predatorG on October 26, 2018, 09:52:11 AM
No does on the cam at all? :dunno:
Post by: GodLovesUgly on October 26, 2018, 02:25:25 PM
It's on!
Post by: flyfishWA on October 26, 2018, 03:52:34 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 26, 2018, 03:57:16 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 26, 2018, 03:59:05 PM
Day pictures of this guy again! :drool:
No does on the cam at all? :dunno:
Somebody's gotta change the angle of that cam! He's still alive. Better hurry home
Post by: jnordwell on October 26, 2018, 05:32:19 PM
Stopped by the butcher today to pick up my processed deer. There was a small forkie hanging, waiting to be weighed. Another dude pulled up with his buck - shot last night in 506. Said the second cut he visited was hopping. Saw a small forkie pushing four doe around, then this three point came out closer to last light. He didn't make it out alive.
The clear cut sounds like my kind of evening. 2 horned bucks with 2 kids hoping for a shot.. sounds like a possible sore back from all the packing or dragging..
Post by: fishnfur on October 26, 2018, 06:10:09 PM
Post by: flyfishWA on October 26, 2018, 06:44:13 PM
My little brother saw a huge forky with eyeguards in the middle of a clearcut that was fairly new. Unfortunatly he somehow couldn't tell that there was a rock in front of its chest at 40 yrds with a scope. :bash: long story short, the deer got away and my brother is kicking himself.My brother was in the same spot today, heard a shot and saw the same buck run over the hill and fall dead. had a huge spread. not sure who shot it, but hopefully they post it on here.
Post by: predatorG on October 26, 2018, 09:01:09 PM
Day pictures of this guy again! :drool:
No does on the cam at all? :dunno:
Somebody's gotta change the angle of that cam! He's still alive. Better hurry home
To many squirrels I guess :bash:
Post by: fishnfur on October 27, 2018, 07:29:28 AM
My little brother saw a huge forky with eyeguards in the middle of a clearcut that was fairly new. Unfortunatly he somehow couldn't tell that there was a rock in front of its chest at 40 yrds with a scope. :bash: long story short, the deer got away and my brother is kicking himself.My brother was in the same spot today, heard a shot and saw the same buck run over the hill and fall dead. had a huge spread. not sure who shot it, but hopefully they post it on here.
Hope that's not the same incident. One shoots, thinks he missed - deer got away. Another hears a shot, sees a buck running and fall dead - not sure who shot it. Hope somebody retrieved that deer.
Heavy rains coming this afternoon.
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 27, 2018, 07:47:03 AM
Post by: flyfishWA on October 27, 2018, 08:06:18 AM
different days, but he waited until the guy that shot it came over the hill and found it.My little brother saw a huge forky with eyeguards in the middle of a clearcut that was fairly new. Unfortunatly he somehow couldn't tell that there was a rock in front of its chest at 40 yrds with a scope. :bash: long story short, the deer got away and my brother is kicking himself.My brother was in the same spot today, heard a shot and saw the same buck run over the hill and fall dead. had a huge spread. not sure who shot it, but hopefully they post it on here.
Hope that's not the same incident. One shoots, thinks he missed - deer got away. Another hears a shot, sees a buck running and fall dead - not sure who shot it. Hope somebody retrieved that deer.
Heavy rains coming this afternoon.
Post by: fishnfur on October 27, 2018, 09:16:58 AM
Had this young three in the back yard this morning. He's spitting a red apple in the first pic. Green are preferred, for whatever reason. Had a doe with a yearling in the yard the night before. It's not red hot in this part of Stella right now.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 28, 2018, 05:54:30 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 28, 2018, 10:07:04 AM
Post by: Birdguy on October 28, 2018, 10:31:51 AM
Post by: rudysts on October 28, 2018, 05:52:17 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 28, 2018, 06:08:03 PM
Nice job. Looks like big bases on a forkie? Hard to tell. Way to get 'er done!
Yes. He has thick bases and thick heavy body. Not sure why he is stunted upstairs. Based on measurements he stacks up as a mature buck in this area. Not sure at this point if he would have been amazing in a couple years or just a big fork. Not that it matters at this point :chuckle: But I will likely get this one tooth aged, out of curiosity.
Post by: grundy53 on October 28, 2018, 08:36:06 PM
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Post by: flyfishWA on October 29, 2018, 08:58:51 PM
Post by: RadSav on October 29, 2018, 09:45:33 PM
Post by: Spuddieselwwu on October 29, 2018, 09:46:55 PM
Post by: grundy53 on October 29, 2018, 09:49:42 PM
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Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 29, 2018, 10:03:00 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 30, 2018, 08:33:10 PM
Dad shot a big 2x3 today that weighed 203 lbs without the guts.
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Toad!
I think the pre-rut thread has morphed into the rut thread. Pulling scotch broom in a cut for the last couple days in Mason. Lot's of fawns and yearlings out wondering why mom ditched them. Found some nice rubs as it was starting to get dark. Cleared the branches/ferns etc. so that I could move my trail cam to that spot. Dropped my gear and started off to get my cam in a close by location. Turned around and there's a forkie right at the rubs. I thought the branches being broken might have brought him in. Turned out he was with a doe. I chose to follow them noisily in my waterproof forestry bibs, boots, etc. Not surprisingly, I couldn't find them, so I went and got my cam and came back two minutes later they are right there, 20 yard in front of me. Her: rural no worries doe - never been hunted. Him: stupid in love, going to follow her to the ends of the earth. I bleated at them 5 or 6 times and he wouldn't even look at me. Just followed that doe. He's lucky tonight, in more that one way.
Post by: RadSav on October 31, 2018, 12:35:44 AM
I think the pre-rut thread has morphed into the rut thread.
Natural evolution for sure. Still early though. We are only seeing full activity in a few areas. Which is good being the last day of general. Should still be on heavy for the late season and maybe a little still into archery season. Which it looks like we might need it. Last weekend was a rough one for us. Think we started off the day at spot "D" and there wasn't much moving from there on up. Maybe today will be better.
Wife will be giving it hell today regardless!! Think from here on out any mature buck with branches will probably be in trouble.
Post by: fishnfur on October 31, 2018, 02:06:12 PM
Good luck today everyone.
Post by: RadSav on November 01, 2018, 12:10:14 AM
Some years you got the magic. Some years you don't. Guess we didn't have anything but the dinker dose of magic through general and we weren't after those. Two more seasons for our luck to change.
Post by: Molon5labe on November 01, 2018, 05:55:00 AM
Almost had the place to ourselves today. Was better a week ago. Today we came across 10 does in daylight and 18-20 on the way out in the dark. Not a single buck dogging a doe. Did see three bucks after legal, but all three were by themselves cruising through clearings. Nothing of any size. All total for the general rifle we've only seen a few good shooters. One was just a glimpse and the others 10 minutes before or after legal hours. But we have seen more than a dozen bucks through general which is encouraging for the future.
Some years you got the magic. Some years you don't. Guess we didn't have anything but the dinker dose of magic through general and we weren't after those. Two more seasons for our luck to change.
I need to hunt where you hunt! I saw 9 doe/fawn and 0 bucks during all of modern. That's about the norm for the past 3 years for me, unfortunately. And I'm out there everyday
Post by: fishnfur on November 01, 2018, 02:21:57 PM
My season ended early this year. I saw 5 bucks and I think 2 doe. Seems like I must have seen more. I tend not to remember doe like I do bucks. I think I can remember every buck I've ever seen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I went out with a cam this morning to Willipa Hills. Got busted by a satellite cow when I was trying to put the sneak on a group of noisy animals. I found in the past that deer tend to be absent when elk are around. Today was no exception.
While there, I noticed how much foliage was still intact on the brush layer. I wondering how much of that will still be in place two weeks from now if we don't get a freeze. Salmonberry and Elderberry for sure will still be hanging on the plants.
Sure could use some cold weather soon. It could be a tough late hunt without a freeze (the opposing argument to that: the longer food is available, the healthier the herd comes out of next winter).
Post by: Whitenuckles on November 01, 2018, 06:01:51 PM
Post by: RadSav on November 01, 2018, 06:04:50 PM
RadSav pays extra to have those deer trucked in from other areas. ;) In all seriousness though Molon5, I don't think you're well below normal. I don't know of any spots where I could see 20 doe in an afternoon either.
Sounds rather normal to me.
Few things that increases our results this time of year:
Almost all of our day is planned out in advance. We've hunted Winston and Toutle for so many years now that even with our primary spots getting logged to oblivion every year we have more hunts planned than we can fit into a day. (With the spraying it gets harder and harder. Used to be good the following year. Sprayed clear-cuts are dead for 3-5 years now. Sucks really bad!)
We never take a break during Pre-Rut through Post-Rut like we do during early archery. If one of us is not walking we are driving to the next walk. Wednesday we were in place almost an hour before legal and never saw a deer until 10:00. If we had stayed where we were it's doubtful we would have seen much. Most of the deer we saw during legal were between 1:30 PM and 2:00 PM.
We cover a lot of ground when blacktail hunting. We start close to the gates and just keep working back and deeper. Reason we see so many deer after legal light is it takes us up to two hours to get out sometimes. Sitting and waiting is not in our make-up. Stop glass move on, stop glass move on, stop glass move on... Only time we ever sit is the last hour. And then only if we end up at a spot we know well with all the right ingredients. It is completely different than early archery.
We never ignore sign or pre-legal or post-legal sightings. To hunt "Where the deer are" you have to constantly be absorbing information. One of our most consistent spots this year is what I would consider a ridiculous spot to find deer. For years we just drive by at light speed barely giving a glimpse. But there was a rub there very early this year. Next day there were two rubs, next hunting day there was a doe and five rubs. Ridiculous or not...ain't going to ignore that!! Take it all in, ignore nothing.
Few of our hunts last more than an hour. Slow walk-in, slow walk-out. Get in the truck and head for the next. Walking longer or farther only makes sense if the deer are there. A lot of people see us cruising and say, "Hey, I saw you guys up road hunting XXX day" We don't ignore what we see driving, not by any means. And we do spend a lot of time in the truck during a day. But we aren't just blindly driving around looking to get lucky and see a deer. Just getting from place to place on schedule and with a plan for the next walk. IF we can get ten in during a day...we're going to see deer.
Post by: fishnfur on November 01, 2018, 06:56:17 PM
Post by: RadSav on November 02, 2018, 12:29:27 PM
That makes me tired just thinking about it. I don't even like driving out there from Longview. I'll say one thing though. Your wife is a trooper. Also, it sounds like you earn each and every deer you find. Thanks for another great explanation.
I do miss the old days in Oregon or the days hunting Pierce CO scotch bloom jungle where you could hunt one buck all year and not have to drive much. I do like targeting specific animals. Just not much of that down here.
This year the wife is doing almost all the walking solo. Since I have no tag left I've been working hard on my power napping!!
Post by: fishnfur on November 02, 2018, 04:54:55 PM
I thought you were the ever-supportive husband type, there with her for every grueling step of the hunt.
Hey RS, I was thinking about some buck craziness I saw last year. This gnaws at me periodically. No one has mentioned similar behavior in my reading. I figured if anyone has ever seen it, you would have. Here's my description from last October:
"Had some quick action this morning. Went to a spot I'd twice bumped deer while walking in the dark. I decided to arrive and enter the woods at first light instead of bumping them. While it was light enough to see out on the road, once in the woods, it was still very dark. I pushed in a few hundred yards and slowed down to a crawl. I reached the first bench up, and though it was still pretty dark, I could see. Dang if I didn't stick my toe into some bump in the road making a bit of a thump. Not loud, but noticeable. I held my position and waited while watching into the darkest woods. Just seconds later, out of nowhere, three deer running at light speed in a fully crouched positions blow by my position about 50 yards in from me. All three flew by in well less than a seconds time, heads low, running at incredible speed and at a height that was no higher than my knee. I was totally shocked how fast it had happened, and without any sound whatsoever. If I hadn't been looking in that direction, I never would have known they had been there. A few seconds later, one of them let out a bawl from probably 100 yards away as it ran. I know BT sneak about in crouched positions, but I've never before heard of them running that way."
I went out and watched cars going down a road from similar distance in an attempt to guess speed. To my best estimates, those deer were going somewhere around 30 mph in a fully crouched run. It still amazes me that they were absolutely silent as they ran.
Have you ever witnessed similar behavior?
Post by: RadSav on November 02, 2018, 08:17:07 PM
I have seen young bucks move off semi-rapidly in a crouched position giving a wide birth to a dominant buck. All the time being vocal in what I call an acceptance bawl/bleat. Seen that a lot during rut. Always figured that was a young bucks way of saying, "Sorry. Just passing through. Please don't kill me."
Not sure if any of those things are similar to what you experienced. I still seem to learn something new from these creatures every year. One of my favorite animals!
Post by: Thehowler on November 02, 2018, 08:43:40 PM
Have you ever seen a blacktail deer, while hidden behind a stump, or other obstacle, leep straight up and down several times, trying to figure out what was making a approaching noise?
One of the most amusing things I have witnessed in the deer woods.
Post by: RadSav on November 02, 2018, 10:36:01 PM
Seen spikes jump up on a stump, back down and back up like a barnyard goat with pen toys. That's probably the closest I've come.
Post by: fishnfur on November 02, 2018, 10:47:28 PM
Post by: RadSav on November 03, 2018, 12:28:18 AM
Post by: fishnfur on November 03, 2018, 09:46:57 AM
I've seen them running really low and fast trying to escape cats and bear. Happened just this early archery season with benchleg does and a bear. Can't say I've seen that from a simple miss/stutter step I've made.
I have seen young bucks move off semi-rapidly in a crouched position giving a wide birth to a dominant buck. All the time being vocal in what I call an acceptance bawl/bleat. Seen that a lot during rut. Always figured that was a young bucks way of saying, "Sorry. Just passing through. Please don't kill me."
Not sure if any of those things are similar to what you experienced. I still seem to learn something new from these creatures every year. One of my favorite animals!
After re-reading this, I'm forced to further question an event that happened just before the start of my first hunting season. I was out marking trails in the woods so that I could walk in dark to my planned spot on opening day. I was working my way through trails in Salmonberry in a wet area that separated a large Alder Bench and a 200 ft incline up to the next bench. I was working very slowly and likely very quietly. As I was finishing up, I reversed my course back a few steps to the Alder and as I stepped into the open, an animal comes flying out of a hole in the swordfern, zig zags around my position and tears off into the distance. It freaked me out. My instinct at the time was that it was a cougar. It ran completely crouched, belly almost on the ground, eyes wide (and possibly yellow), wet gray fur. I remember seeing just a blur of legs, like those in a TV cartoon, as the character makes a hasty exit. I threw my arms up in the air, starting yelling as loud as I could, and ran right at the thing as it scrambled to get away. Being positive that was a cougar, I'm sure you can imagine that I was pretty freaked out for that entire first season walking in the woods solo in the dark. I was sure that it had been watching me from perhaps 10 yards away, and my sudden reversal of course sent it into escape mode.
Last year, after experiencing the second event of seeing three bucks sprinting in the same crouched fashion, it made me question that original encounter. As it turned out, the two events occurred maybe just a quarter-mile away, but on opposite sides of a creek from each other. If the first event was a deer and not cat, I wonder if that is a learned or perhaps instinctive behavior for Blacktail, or a just local phenomenon. What is the trigger that tells them to crouch and sprint vs. the stotting/bounding escape mode more typically displayed?? I've researched escaped modalities of ungulates on the web on several occasions. Nothing is ever mentioned about crouched sprinting. I even emailed Eric Holder, the WDFW Biologiest/Blacktail specialist. He had heard stories of slow belly crawling by BTs, but not sprinting. :dunno: I'm sure I'll never know.
Post by: fishnfur on November 03, 2018, 10:31:25 AM
My backyard cams have been dead for about a week, which is weird. Apples all over the ground and no takers at all. It does look like they're browsing apple tree leaves in preference to apples. I'm noticing new damage.
This AM at first light, I went out to a community walking trail where I frequently see see doe and bucks. Absolutely dead. I would expect that during this late moon phase, deer would be up and feeding past first light. If most of the doe were in the midst of a "lockdown" type situation, I'd at least be seeing fawns and yearlings up and about. I'm wondering if mid-day feedings may be the best time to spot a buck in tow?
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on November 03, 2018, 11:54:30 AM
Tall forks that I don't think started forking until past his ears, and decent body size on him, so he was a mature buck...acting like a horney teenager!
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on November 03, 2018, 05:00:30 PM
(https://storage04.dropshots.com/photos8000/photos/1401964/20181103/x_195904.jpg)
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on November 04, 2018, 08:44:53 AM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on November 04, 2018, 08:49:42 AM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on November 04, 2018, 10:18:17 AM
Post by: fishnfur on November 04, 2018, 10:19:35 AM
Good luck in Idaho!
Post by: RadSav on November 04, 2018, 01:08:27 PM
Tbh the worst season to date....the last day of the season was the first day I seen any rut activity in my area...weather and number of hunters really messed it up....
Even with the tree farm pass it was that way this year. Saw about half the deer we usually do. Over half our usual buck spots are now completely dead enormous clearcuts. And you would have thought they eliminated the permits and went back to public access. I'd bet we saw more hunters than we had the five years prior to the start of permits. That and the moon really seemed to keep those bucks nocturnal.
After archery season we were very optimistic. Haven't seen deer numbers, or buck numbers for that matter, that good inside the tree farm in about 15 years. That moon, weather and hunter numbers...they sure disappeared for general!
I swear Weyco found my daily hunt list and decided, "Hey, lets rape every batch of timer this sorry SOB likes to hunt. And let's do it all at one time. He'll spend more time whining than hunting. It will be hilarious!!!"
Post by: predatorG on November 04, 2018, 01:50:55 PM
Post by: Big6bull on November 04, 2018, 01:55:18 PM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on November 04, 2018, 07:22:18 PM
Tbh the worst season to date....the last day of the season was the first day I seen any rut activity in my area...weather and number of hunters really messed it up....
Even with the tree farm pass it was that way this year. Saw about half the deer we usually do. Over half our usual buck spots are now completely dead enormous clearcuts. And you would have thought they eliminated the permits and went back to public access. I'd bet we saw more hunters than we had the five years prior to the start of permits. That and the moon really seemed to keep those bucks nocturnal.
After archery season we were very optimistic. Haven't seen deer numbers, or buck numbers for that matter, that good inside the tree farm in about 15 years. That moon, weather and hunter numbers...they sure disappeared for general!
I swear Weyco found my daily hunt list and decided, "Hey, lets rape every batch of timer this sorry SOB likes to hunt. And let's do it all at one time. He'll spend more time whining than hunting. It will be hilarious!!!"
This sounds all too familiar....over the last 2 months they have been punching in roads and landings into all my good spots ..so I'm sure that hasn't helped at all either...I guess we'll see what late buck brings if I come home....I have seen 5 shooter bucks in the last 48hrs so things are looking up I suppose :chuckle:
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on November 04, 2018, 07:27:34 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 04, 2018, 10:07:14 PM
Post by: npaull on November 05, 2018, 07:20:11 AM
Post by: bobcat on November 05, 2018, 07:42:48 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Mike450r on November 05, 2018, 08:28:24 AM
Post by: npaull on November 05, 2018, 09:45:05 AM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on November 05, 2018, 02:16:21 PM
BTW 98520 - Nice pic. I remember you've got a Vortex spotting scope. Is that the 60mm aperture model? You sure get some good/fun images from distance.
Thanks, I got the 85mm with the Carson hookupz adapter, one of these days I'll break down and get a phone scope and make it easier lol
Post by: fishnfur on November 06, 2018, 07:10:01 PM
Post by: Tinmaniac on November 06, 2018, 07:40:51 PM
Post by: hillbillyhunting on November 06, 2018, 07:57:50 PM
I think you'll find that blacktail bucks will be more active this week, through next weekend. Right up to the day before the general late season starts on the 15th. So put in some time the next seven days and I bet you'll notice a big difference from what you've been seeing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think this is usually fact, but this year I am seeing something different. Opening weekend I had a decent 2x3 chasing does. I saw him 2 nights in a row on does. My cousins fam killed 3 bucks the week of the 20th; 2 were mature bucks, and all were definitely rutting. My son has a late season permit, and we have only seen 2 does in 4 days. From what I can tell the deer are completely nocturnal again. I think the rut happened very early this year.
I wish my son was having a better experience. It is unbelievable that we have seen as many bobcats as deer in early November.
Post by: npaull on November 06, 2018, 08:24:06 PM
Post by: shanevg on November 06, 2018, 08:40:05 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on November 06, 2018, 08:55:08 PM
Post by: Mike450r on November 07, 2018, 06:41:29 AM
Got to my driveway and a decent three point walked out with his neck bowed and nose up acting like he was a 80 year old woman in a crosswalk.
Post by: fishnfur on November 07, 2018, 06:42:31 PM
Keep after it you late permit guys! It WILL happen. The intensity and progress of the rut is very temperamental, but IME if there is a constant it's that MAD month commonly known as November is going to have more days of magic than all the others combined. Keep the faith! Rut reports are like the weather. Scattered showers with a above average chance of daylight movement. :chuckle: They have to breed, don't let the weather or reports of rut activity in other areas or times discourage you. Good luck!
100% agree. One area or another is always showing some activity at this point. It is not unusual that many areas are still difficult hunting. By Late Buck, pretty much everyplace has at least moderate (though often declining) activity.
Moon phases have no effect on timing of the rut, but only (perhaps) how long into the morning deer stay out feeding.
Have faith. Many of those initial/early breedings tend to be unsuccessful. In just the next few days, the majority of unbred does will get hot or hot for a second time. And just like every year, bucks will respond.
Post by: npaull on November 07, 2018, 07:30:41 PM
Post by: predatorG on November 07, 2018, 08:12:32 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 07, 2018, 11:04:52 PM
Post by: npaull on November 08, 2018, 07:40:48 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on November 08, 2018, 08:03:07 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 08, 2018, 11:40:13 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 08, 2018, 11:47:55 PM
Anybody have thoughts on, or experience with this?
Post by: npaull on November 10, 2018, 01:27:22 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on November 10, 2018, 01:41:56 PM
I'm starting to wonder if drawing for a quality tag in a Blacktail unit is really an advantage, or whether it makes sense to pass on a nice buck during the general season, hoping for a masher during the Quality Tag Season. It seems like every year, the best bucks are taken in the last few days of October, and then the the guys that drew Quality tags seem to have trouble finding any bucks during the time when we all seem to expect that it should be easy hunting.my thought is you should delete this post! ;)
Anybody have thoughts on, or experience with this?
Post by: fishnfur on November 10, 2018, 02:47:05 PM
I'm starting to wonder if drawing for a quality tag in a Blacktail unit is really an advantage, or whether it makes sense to pass on a nice buck during the general season, hoping for a masher during the Quality Tag Season. It seems like every year, the best bucks are taken in the last few days of October, and then the the guys that drew Quality tags seem to have trouble finding any bucks during the time when we all seem to expect that it should be easy hunting.my thought is you should delete this post! ;)
Anybody have thoughts on, or experience with this?
Blasphemous to question conventional wisdom? :dunno:
Post by: npaull on November 10, 2018, 02:52:14 PM
Quote
I'm starting to wonder if drawing for a quality tag in a Blacktail unit is really an advantage, or whether it makes sense to pass on a nice buck during the general season, hoping for a masher during the Quality Tag Season. It seems like every year, the best bucks are taken in the last few days of October, and then the the guys that drew Quality tags seem to have trouble finding any bucks during the time when we all seem to expect that it should be easy hunting.
Anybody have thoughts on, or experience with this?
I think it's still an advantage to have the rut tag, but I wouldn't pass on a nice buck during the general. What's hard is that I think it's pretty tough to call peak rut on any given year beyond that it's likely to happen sometime in the first couple weeks of November. So if you're just looking to take a week or so off to hunt the tag (guilty this year) you might miss it.
Post by: fishnfur on November 10, 2018, 06:45:33 PM
There were roughly 400 special hunts tags sold for taking bucks. This does not include antlerless tags but does include 120 tags for disabled hunters that were for the general season, not the Nov 1 - 14 period. The cumulative totals are not broken out to allow identification of when the bucks were killed in the report for special hunts success. I would suspect that many of the spike bucks were taken by disabled hunters but that remains an unknown.
District total bucks 1 pt 2 pt 3pt 4pt 5+pt
10 10 3 1 4 1 1
11 16 5 8 1 2 0
12 10 1 2 6 0 1
13 2 0 1 0 1 0
14 15 3 6 2 2 2
15 7 2 2 3 0 0
16 3 1 1 1 0 0
17 17 1 7 7 2 0
totals 80 16 28 24 8 4
What I see in these numbers is that over 50% of the bucks taken with special tags were spikes or fork-horned. The success rate for hunters having a special hunt tag appears to be 20%.
When compared to the general season, a twenty percent success rate for special hunts seems to be a lower percentage success than almost all of the individual GMUs report.
So when I chew on all this information and let it digest awhile, I wonder again if it makes sense to keep putting my money down, year after year, to put my name into the hat for a chance for a "Quality" hunt every eight to ten years, when the success rate appears to be about 20%, and over half of those animals harvested are spikes or forks. (?)
I think WDFW also considers it "Quality" because there's fewer hunters in the woods, but if you count the thousands of Modern Firearms elk hunters in the woods during the same period, that argument fails miserably.
One could certainly argue that it is very worthwhile trying to draw a special hunt tag to hunt West Kickitat or one of the other units famous for big antlered BTs. I wouldn't argue that point. IMHO, in other average westside GMUs, the Quality Special Hunt tag seems to be a much less valuable tag. Taking vacation days in late October and during the Late Buck season seems to be a better bet.
Npaull - I agree with your comments. My understanding of the biology and reproduction of deer has led me to understand that the term "peak of the rut" is in actuality, peak breeding. This apparently does not equate to peak hunting. Bucks appear to be more available to hunters during the seeking and chasing phases of the rut. Once the majority of does become hot at the same time(or within just a few days of each other), in my mind, the bucks appear to move less and it may be that much of the breeding/rutting activity is occurring at night. Once the majority of the girls have been bred or are no longer in estrus, the bucks start moving again looking for other available females. This accounts for the good hunting just before and just after the peak of the rut and may explain why it often seems so slow in the woods during the peak breeding period.
(Don't quote me on this, certainly some of it is incorrect).
You OK with this SkookumHntr?
Post by: Thehowler on November 10, 2018, 08:10:44 PM
Post by: pd on November 10, 2018, 08:58:40 PM
My understanding of the biology and reproduction of deer has led me to understand that the term "peak of the rut" is in actuality, peak breeding. This apparently does not equate to peak hunting. Bucks appear to be more available to hunters during the seeking and chasing phases of the rut. Once the majority of does become hot at the same time(or within just a few days of each other), in my mind, the bucks appear to move less and it may be that much of the breeding/rutting activity is occurring at night. Once the majority of the girls have been bred or are no longer in estrus, the bucks start moving again looking for other available females. This accounts for the good hunting just before and just after the peak of the rut and may explain why it often seems so slow in the woods during the peak breeding period.
This makes a lot of sense to me; I had never thought about it this way. I certainly do see a lot of "cruising bucks" in the late October time period, but not so much during the first 10 days of November. Thanks for proffering this explanation; I, too, have no idea if it has any validity, but it makes just enough sense to become lore.
Post by: TriggerMike on November 10, 2018, 09:29:20 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 11, 2018, 12:09:43 PM
TriggerMike - please keep us updated on your hunts. I'm wondering if it will pick up again in the next couple of days.
In my imagination, I'd always pictured the quality hunts as being an chance to kill a monster buck while he's stupid in love. They'd be all over the place and just walking around dazed and confused (or somethin' like that). At a glance, the numbers harvest of four and five point bucks taken during the quality hunts seems to be proportionate to that of the regular season. It may be that those taken are better quality/more mature (like Kodiak 907's buck posted a couple days ago), but the stats don't report that information.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on November 11, 2018, 04:23:25 PM
My hunting partner who is a BT killing machine drew one last year and hated the experience.
For some units ( north 400 series) there is not a extended late season so these permits would be more desirable in some of those I would think.
Here is my observations...... Scouting is still very much a big part of taking a particular class of BT buck. My hunt was in a very familiar unit, and I was able to summer scout and put alot of early mornings and evening time in around work schedule to locate bucks and history in the area helped in knowing fall patterns. ( The buck I took was killed less than half a mile from where I took my first buck). My hunting partners was a drive and he was not able to scout as much due to that limitation combined with being an unfamiliar unit. Take an eastside tag and those limitations are not as magnified in many units typically. As the terrain, and migratory nature can aid in locating during the hunt.
The synopsis of my hunt was, scout hard during summer found 2 shooters for sure and several other very good mature bucks. October season trigger control was much easier and I was able to look over a couple bucks that I would have gladly taken on a general hunt. Late October weather was indian summer and buck activity was slow. November 1st a switch flipped and saw 3 branched bucks including the first "big" one. A tall heavy frame 3x3 that was likely seen in summer, But unable to put eyegaurds on him ( a personal goal ) I made the tough decision to pass. The following 5 days were roller coaster with, reports of killed bucks that I had hopes for and several goose chase leads, but buck activity was good and saw a couple "nice" ones and a couple of those leads turned up some big buck sign. On the 6th of november or thereabouts I was able to seal the deal on "my" buck.
My hunting partner hunted hard all season and located sign of a very good buck in late october. He hunted all season with very good weather and passed up a couple of nice bucks early, But never saw the mature bucks he was hoping for. Or sign of them to speak of. Whether The buck he saw sign of moved on, or was killed the last few days of October is hard to say but no more sign in the area he had originally located it in. Deer sightings were good enough, but fog, and small bucks seemed to be the order of the day.
My takeaway is that if you know the area well, have a good idea of caliber of buck to expect from that area, and have does patterned than anything can happen and the late tags give you the absolute best time to catch up with him.
Post by: predatorG on November 11, 2018, 05:36:58 PM
Post by: predatorG on November 11, 2018, 05:56:33 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on November 11, 2018, 07:59:33 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on November 11, 2018, 08:11:16 PM
Post by: TriggerMike on November 11, 2018, 08:36:31 PM
TriggerMike is shooting holes in my theories. Sounds like he's in 'em regularly, though that report was primarily prior to the "peak of the rut".No, I think your theory is solid. I had a similar mindset thinking I'd be seeing stud 4 points in clear cuts with the doe groups I've been watching since summer but thats just not the case. Last time I had this tag I tagged out on a 3x3 with eyeguards bedded in a clear cut on opening morning but opening day was November 18th that year. And what blackvelvet just said I think is spot on. As for an update today, I saw a good 2 point chasing two does late morning VERY aggressively. Watched them for about 10 minutes. He scent checked her pee at one point and immediately sprinted right at her and they were in a frenzy, which was very cool to watch. I ultimately decided to pass on him, he was a decent tall 2 that I wouldnt have hesitated on in general season. I then saw a group of 3 other does with no bucks this afternoon about a mile away. Last time I saw that group was on the 2nd and they were buck-less then as well. Today makes 8 bucks and 68 does since November 1st. If that's not quaility blacktail hunting then idk what is!
TriggerMike - please keep us updated on your hunts. I'm wondering if it will pick up again in the next couple of days.
In my imagination, I'd always pictured the quality hunts as being an chance to kill a monster buck while he's stupid in love. They'd be all over the place and just walking around dazed and confused (or somethin' like that). At a glance, the numbers harvest of four and five point bucks taken during the quality hunts seems to be proportionate to that of the regular season. It may be that those taken are better quality/more mature (like Kodiak 907's buck posted a couple days ago), but the stats don't report that information.
Post by: TriggerMike on November 11, 2018, 08:36:54 PM
Here's a couple predator.Great buck!
Post by: fishnfur on November 11, 2018, 09:34:37 PM
- Many hunters pursue special hunt tags for areas they are unfamiliar with, adding to the difficulty of locating game and hunting effectively. Pre-season scouting and familiarity of the area hunted are paramount in most instances.
- Skilled hunters tend to have a better chance at success and are more likely to take advantage of increased availability of mature bucks during this period. The drawing for tags though has no preference for hunter skill, which results in a broad spectrum of skill levels hitting the woods hoping for a Booner. In the case of your buddy, his plight demonstrates that Blacktail hunting can leave even a skilled hunter frustrated, but it may also accurately demonstrate the picture I was attempting to paint.
It is very likely that, as you point out, a large part of the mixed results is that unfamiliarity of the area hunted. Additionally, another huge part of it is the fact that many areas just don't have huge numbers of deer everywhere. Without good scouting, the chances of finding a great spot are drastically reduced. On the other hand, good scouting in areas with low deer numbers will likely lead to poorer results than those compared to better areas.
On the other hand, the basis of my argument remains that for Blacktail, these Quality Hunts for many hunters don't often live up to our expectation (though in your case, it certainly did). We all understand that hunting generally improves during the last few days of October. I believed (right or wrong) that hunters expect that the trend toward better hunting continues up to the peak of the rut (say the 10 - 12 Nov. for the sake of this discussion). In my observation of postings on this forum, it seems to be a common occurrence that hunters are often seeing nothing at all in the woods or have just a glimpse or two of bucks over the course of many days of hunting during their Quality Hunts (similar to the quality of the General Season). I know that when I go to areas where I consistently see deer during the General Season and then come November, I see none, day after day, during the "peak of the rut" period, then I'm obviously not understanding correctly what has changed, or I don't know when the actual peak of the rut is in my area. When I combine my observations with similar findings expressed by others, then I'm inclined to wonder what is really going on (hence this discussion).
The confounding part of this situation is that different regions and different elevations seem to be on slightly different time schedules for the progression of the rut. The first five days of November may be incredible hunting in one area and plain lousy in another. It seems to be impossible to predict how this may play into a Quality Hunt until the hunter is actually in the woods. Good pre-season scouting will not create a hot doe in the area if none are ready to breed. Ultimately, the success rates for the Quality Hunts demonstrates that for many hunters, the harvest rate is no better (and possibly worse) than that experienced during the general season. The fact that somewhere around 40 percent of the harvest is taken in just four days following that Quality Hunt period seems to indicate that there's possibly a lull in the action in there somewhere, and ultimately, closing the deal on an unknown/un-scouted big buck still seems to come down to being in the right place at the right time and some luck.
As you correctly pointed out though, this tag might be the best opportunity to harvest that big buck that you know is out there. It is essentially an extended season that allows you more time to close the deal on a big one that is playing hard to get, even during his period of weakness.
Thanks for playing. Your comments substantiate that the tag certainly has "value" by way of an increased opportunity to hunt bucks that might not otherwise be available during the general season.
Post by: fishnfur on November 11, 2018, 09:40:09 PM
TriggerMike - You're killin' me. That's some serious blacktail numbers. Hope that big boy shows up soon. Good luck!
Post by: predatorG on November 11, 2018, 10:04:45 PM
Might be helpful when skinning a deer :dunno: :yike:
Post by: fishnfur on November 11, 2018, 10:34:04 PM
Hey Kid - You know why they don't send donkeys to college?
Hey PredatorG. What time was that trail cam shot taken? Unless there was an eclipse going on, I think the cam is wrong.
Did dad get his buck this year?? Hope he's saving that masher for you.
(The answer about the donkey?? Nobody likes a smart ass)
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on November 12, 2018, 08:26:24 AM
I 100 percent agree with your comments Fish about the hunters view of the rut. I think we all tend to think of it in a linear fashion where all of a sudden the light is on and activity and intensity increase until a certain point at which its off again.
Over and over we see thats not the case and so many factors go into the mix that make deciphering the formula a great discussion. Is it moon phase, weather, photo period, deer density, buck density, pressure...etcc... My take is at the end of the day really the only thing we can control is the amount of time we are able to spend during 'Primetime" IME I will always take the first 2 weeks of november for BT in the areas I have hunted. So adding to that can only help.
For the most part I have noticed bucks really go low pro at 3.5 in the BT woods. Sure they get a bit more antsy around the rut and that's why many of them get killed during those October days that are just right. But regardless of what he has grown up top, looking over bucks that are past that age is very tough and IMO only the very elite BT guys will ever pass one up during a general season. We have a few of those guys here and hunt wa should thank their lucky stars. But I am not one of those :chuckle: :sry:
This recent cold front has been awesome for the daylight movement, and to all those guys fortunate enough to be holding a permit.... Good luck!!
Post by: SteelheadTed on November 12, 2018, 01:03:29 PM
- The unit I am hunting is a new unit to me and I did no preseason scouting (yeah, I didn't have much time but I could have gotten out, I thought the hunting would be much easier and assumed there would be deer everywhere, rookie move)
- I am relatively new to hunting, this is my fourth season
- I think I am good enough to spot animals that are there, I don't think I am overlooking much
- I've covered a lot of ground (after sitting a lot earlier in the season I've moved a lot more the past 4 times out)
- I will likely hunt this unit during next years general season so the experience won't go to waste
- I've seen precious few animals, 5 does and 1 small buck in 6 trips out
So I fit somewhere within the issues fishnfur brought up. I know I am not the only one struggling in that unit during the special tag hunt. If I knew the unit better, had scouted and was a better hunter, I think I would have filled my tag by now. BUT, it wouldn't have been easy. They just aren't out during the day right now, at least not in any numbers.
I am most likely done with the special tag season due to work obligations but I'll be back out for the late general, somewhere!
Post by: hillbillyhunting on November 12, 2018, 01:52:35 PM
Another quality tag hunter (Mason unit) checking in.
- The unit I am hunting is a new unit to me and I did no preseason scouting (yeah, I didn't have much time but I could have gotten out, I thought the hunting would be much easier and assumed there would be deer everywhere, rookie move)
- I am relatively new to hunting, this is my fourth season
- I think I am good enough to spot animals that are there, I don't think I am overlooking much
- I've covered a lot of ground (after sitting a lot earlier in the season I've moved a lot more the past 4 times out)
- I will likely hunt this unit during next years general season so the experience won't go to waste
- I've seen precious few animals, 5 does and 1 small buck in 6 trips out
My son has this tag and we have had a really difficult time finding deer. I hunted this unit during the regular season and saw a lot more deer than we are seeing right now. I had the best success at the beginning of the regular rifle season. I think the deer went 100% nocturnal with all the pressure this unit gets. Even though we have practically had the woods to ourselves; we have only managed to see about a dozen does in 7 hard days of hunting.
[/list]
So I fit somewhere within the issues fishnfur brought up. I know I am not the only one struggling in that unit during the special tag hunt. If I knew the unit better, had scouted and was a better hunter, I think I would have filled my tag by now. BUT, it wouldn't have been easy. They just aren't out during the day right now, at least not in any numbers.
I am most likely done with the special tag season due to work obligations but I'll be back out for the late general, somewhere!
Post by: fishnfur on November 12, 2018, 08:01:28 PM
Good luck Trigger Mike!! Sounds like a good time :tup:
I 100 percent agree with your comments Fish about the hunters view of the rut. I think we all tend to think of it in a linear fashion where all of a sudden the light is on and activity and intensity increase until a certain point at which its off again.
Over and over we see thats not the case and so many factors go into the mix that make deciphering the formula a great discussion. Is it moon phase, weather, photo period, deer density, buck density, pressure...etcc... My take is at the end of the day really the only thing we can control is the amount of time we are able to spend during 'Primetime" IME I will always take the first 2 weeks of november for BT in the areas I have hunted. So adding to that can only help.
For the most part I have noticed bucks really go low pro at 3.5 in the BT woods. Sure they get a bit more antsy around the rut and that's why many of them get killed during those October days that are just right. But regardless of what he has grown up top, looking over bucks that are past that age is very tough and IMO only the very elite BT guys will ever pass one up during a general season. We have a few of those guys here and hunt wa should thank their lucky stars. But I am not one of those :chuckle: :sry:
This recent cold front has been awesome for the daylight movement, and to all those guys fortunate enough to be holding a permit.... Good luck!!
Well said. Ultimately, it is what it is. We cannot change it, only adapt to the situations at hand and deal with it.
If my ideas about a slow period during the "peak of the rut" had any validity, I'd guess that it would be for a relatively short time frame - perhaps seven to eight days max. Quite possibly just five or six days. Once all the does have been taken care of, the bucks should get moving again.
I would imagine that rather than hunting the same area over and over again and seeing no action, it might make sense for the hunter to go up or down in elevation or move some distance within the Quality unit drawn. Steve Isdahl, who runs the Blacktail Hunter App and HowtoHunt.com describes a situation in which the groups of does move from spot to spot around a mountain in response to hunter or predator pressure during the rut (in BC). He manages the situation where he's lost track of the does by trying to guess where they might have moved and then slowly working his way from area to area until he locates them again. His scenario may account for some (or possibly much) of the lack of action many WA hunters experience during the Quality Hunts (following the heavy hunting in late-October and during MF Elk). Something to put in your back pockets anyways.
I've been hearing some movement and jumping around in the woods down here during my firewood runs in the last three days. I investigated today and found some pretty massive tracks just over the edge of a hilltop cut, inside the edge of big super steep timber. I think they're moving a bit more, down here anyways.
Good luck everyone with the last few days of Quality and the following Late Buck Season. Should be some nice Blackies hittin' the dirt. Eat a good breakfast. Take a lunch (and a second set of rain gear and dry clothes, if necessary) with you. Stay out all day. Hunt hard. Don't give up.
Post by: Mike450r on November 13, 2018, 06:20:33 AM
Does are getting followed around by hormone fueled bucks of all sizes, they get a lot more skittish and seem to be on the move more often than not. In my experience your chances of seeing deer may go down but your chances of a buck being among those deer go up. This weather doesn't help much either.
If you want to get a good idea of the deer numbers in a particular area get out there on a rainy September day, that's when I usually see the most.
Post by: flyfishWA on November 13, 2018, 03:34:23 PM
Post by: flyfishWA on November 13, 2018, 03:48:54 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 13, 2018, 07:57:54 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 13, 2018, 08:03:48 PM
I've been hunting blacktail deer a long time and I rarely if ever see as many deer during the rut as I do in the months prior, I do see more bucks but overall deer numbers are almost always less.
Does are getting followed around by hormone fueled bucks of all sizes, they get a lot more skittish and seem to be on the move more often than not. In my experience your chances of seeing deer may go down but your chances of a buck being among those deer go up. This weather doesn't help much either.
If you want to get a good idea of the deer numbers in a particular area get out there on a rainy September day, that's when I usually see the most.
I think you're right on there on all counts. The does seem frazzled after the chase has been on for a while. Both they and their kids can go berserk at the slightest little noise or movement at times, once the rut has started.
Post by: flyfishWA on November 13, 2018, 08:28:30 PM
Nice pics. I'm thinkin' it was the dude with the eyeguards that thrashed that tree, not the little forkie. There might even be a bigger one hiding around there. That's a pretty good rub - though it's difficult to tell the size of the tree. Go get 'em!The rub is about two feet from bottom to top ;)
Post by: fishnfur on November 14, 2018, 03:15:12 PM
Just for chuckles, I pulled a card today and saw that a young (maybe just 1.5 year old) and small 3 X 2 hopped through the yard just after I last checked the card last Sunday. He probably came and went within a 10 second period. He's showing good promise to be a masher if he survives the local town traffic. Nice double throat patch too.
Post by: fishnfur on November 14, 2018, 03:26:54 PM
Based upon this recent late seeking activity, I'm thinking the upcoming Late Buck season may be a really good one down here. Time will tell...
Post by: slowhand on November 14, 2018, 03:34:14 PM
Post by: predatorG on November 14, 2018, 05:24:32 PM
I go a little deeper in the videos and find this dude had been out in the yard just this morning. Another drive-by buck, only this guy is just a bit better :chuckle:. I'm not sure if I've seen him before. He looks 3.5 year old, maybe 4 and a half. He's looking to be a stud when he gets a few more years on him. He's got one hell of a swagger when he walks. He's obviously looking for does. He ate one apple then was on his way again. The last photo is the only other 4 point that has been in the yard, and that was last year. I'm wondering if is the same buck. Pretty impossible to tell.
Based upon this recent late seeking activity, I'm thinking the upcoming Late Buck season may be a really good one down here. Time will tell...
That looks just like our buck on cam :o
Post by: fishnfur on November 14, 2018, 06:40:00 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 15, 2018, 12:14:52 PM
Post by: TriggerMike on November 15, 2018, 07:20:02 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 16, 2018, 08:36:33 AM
Post by: fishnfur on November 22, 2018, 09:26:11 PM
Post by: PastorJoel on November 22, 2018, 10:00:14 PM
Post by: fishnfur on November 22, 2018, 11:53:12 PM
There definitely a lot of bucks being caught out chasing in the last couple days. Strange year.....
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on November 23, 2018, 07:58:02 AM
ttt - A little CPR and cardioversion - I'm just not ready for this thread to die quite yet. :'(
I am with ya :tup: This one has been fun, thanks for all your contributions. :)
One thing I have always wondered about is the impact that harvest has on the rut, and I plan to do some more research in the off season as to how the rut dynamic in the BT world works.
IMO very few does get bred by spikes, while it does happen I believe it is a more or less commonly believed assertion that the doe WANTS to be bred by the strongest buck in a given area. Or at the least a strong buck. I have witnessed enough doe get dogged by young bucks, only to change their tune as soon as a 3.5 or better buck showed and begin acting receptive to believe this is the case. This is during November outside of general seasons BT and observed in mule deer. This also coincides with the type of deer we as hunters often target. So in a year such as this where we see a significant take of this type of deer early on in the breeding season what are the implications to the rut intensity and herd dynamic.
Here is a rudimentary example....
So lets say a hunter is hunting a mile long drainage of mixed habitat, with a population of 15 deer. 7 are breeding age does. 4 are this seasons fawns, and 4 are bucks. A spike and young 2 point, a 3.5 year old 2x3 who is no slouch and a monster 3 point of unknown age. Life begins to get weird in the canyon mid October as testerone starts flowing and bucks begin seeking the does. But its relatively warm and deer movement is relegated to mainly the night shift. In this 3rd week a couple doe gets squirrelly and 2 of them are bred. One by the 2x3 and another by the big buck. The weather conditions from hunters perspective improve drastically with cooler temps, rain and cloud cover coinciding with the last week of the October and the estrous does becoming more active. Rutting activity is a flurry at this point and The hunter sees the younger bucks but chooses to pass. Then with 3 days left of season he catches the 2x3 sneaking through a creek bottom with a doe and takes him. At this point there is Multiple options as to how the rut COULD play out in this little canyon. What are thoughts on where it goes from here?
My thought is it rut activity significantly drops for a myriad of reasons. Without the 2x3 around the bigger buck has no competition. The does are not ready to stand for either of the young bucks and the bigger buck because he can only cover one doe at a time gets one more doe bred, but misses the first heat cycle of the 4 remaining does who become receptive on Halloween and through the 5th of November. The younger bucks have now left the drainage looking for new girls, and the bigger buck is on the rotation coming into scent check the canyon while tending adjacent areas. You could easily replace the 2x3 with the big buck IMO the same result occurs with the added issue of the 2x3 being younger possibly being more apt to leave early from the canyon he has is most familiar with. Thoughts?
Post by: fishnfur on November 23, 2018, 12:53:32 PM
Population dynamics and BT deer movement during the rut is dicey stuff to consider - Researchers have spent very little (none?) time on it . I gave up looking for studies on BTs and rutting behaviors quite awhile back. There is one good article on JSTOR, a Journal of Mammology study on BT population dynamics. I think it was based in the Trinity Alps, though I'm not sure on that, but that study had nothing to do with the rut. I found that if I wanted to understand deer movement issues during the rut, I had to study WTs, since there is literally mountains of studies on that species. I had to accept that though the species are not identical, they share enough similar behaviors that I could then infer what was happening, or what I was seeing in the BT world. I think that is where you might want to spend some time too. Googling "scholarly articles for" and then whatever phrase you're interested in following that will get you off to a good start.
My thoughts on your scenario, based on my (inferred) understanding of deer movement during the rut, with a couple of blanket statements to start:
1. I'm working from memory and a mental conglomeration of information gained through five or six years of readings on the topic. I believe what I'm writing is correct, though I cannot guarantee it. In some cases, field observations or studies by other researchers may refute what I've accepted as factual. In many cases though, I've already read those research articles or abstracts of studies and accepted or rejected them myself.
2. Every buck is an individual. They have different personalities and are totally unpredictable (as a group) in how they will respond to any given situation. The same individual may respond the same way every time a situation comes up, but it will likely be different from how other animals react to that same situation. For example, some bucks may only participate in a short portion of the entire breeding season, while others may stay active into the winter months.
3. Bucks leave their maternal family and move to a new territory typically during the spring or summer of their first year, though sometimes they may stay with their family into the second year. Young BTs relocate, on average, somewhere around four miles, but as much as twelve or more miles from their birth place. They seem to find an area with a population structure suitable to their liking in an elevation and ecosystem that they prefer. They develop relationships with the older/mature deer in their new homes and fall into the social structure in the lower ranks of dominance.
4. Bucks form bachelor groups in spring or early summer and over the course of several months re-establish dominance rankings amongst themselves, and become familiar with the scent of all the other deer within the local and (likely) closely adjacent herds. Though every buck is an individual, it is generally accepted that they spend the majority of their lives within a square mile area, plus or minus. The deer in that bachelor herd have overlapping but not identical territories. Likely the level of dominance established early on determines which buck gets the best bedding areas, the best core zone areas when they break up, and ultimately, the best breeding areas. The others work the fringes of the intersecting territories or follow the leader as a subordinate.
So given your scenario, I believe that you are correct that the early loss of one of the more dominant bucks may leave some does untended to during an early/first estrus period, and perhaps a resultant perceived reduction in rut activity (from our point of view) in that local area. When we read this forum though, we often accept spikes and small forkies harassing does as rutting activity. I believe that would still be the case in your scenario too, even if no actual breeding takes place, the onset of estrus would have the young bucks acting as expected.
What we don't know is how bucks really travel during the rut. My understanding or interpretation is that once the does really start popping, the bucks will search often well outside their normal territories for hot does. My belief is that the younger bucks likely stay resident and hope for a chance to breed a doe in the absence of a dominant buck. It is likely the 3.5 - 7.5 or 8.5 year old bucks that do a lot of travelling once the does in their own territories are no longer hot. Anywhere they go, they are dominant enough for a doe to accept them as a suitable breeder, though they may still have to compete for that doe in the presence of several mature bucks. Given your scenario, after the initial first estrus and assuming other mature bucks are coming and going from adjacent areas into your drainage, there should be enough buck traffic to serve the needs of your seven mature does by the end of the second estrus. In a situation where there are not enough dominant bucks in the region to serve the needs of all the does, I believe that a persistent year-and-a-half old buck will eventually be allowed to breed a mature doe. She has no other choice.
I'm not sure if that answers your questions, nor whether it is entirely correct. I believe it is correct in general, but perhaps not for each individual doe or buck.
Sidenote: just an observation from Oct. 30th up in Mason. I was working in my privately owned clearcut and found a fresh rub and decided to put a cam on it. I went in and was very noisy removing brush and breaking limbs off the tree I was going to hang the cam on. I placed the cam and walked maybe 25 yards to leave and noticed movement behind me. A doe came straight to where I hung the cam (wrong side - I got no video) and seconds later, I saw that she had a decent, not large, forkie in tow. I watched them head into the bush, attempted to follow them for a few seconds, then eventually turned to leave. I found that they had circled and she headed back out into the cut in order to cross to the other side, the poor buck looking embarrassed that he had no choice but to follow her out into the wide-open space with a human close by. After the fact, I felt like she intentionally came to my noise looking/hoping for a better buck whom she thought was tearing up the place. I'm betting that if a more dominant buck had been there for her, that smaller buck with her would have been out, and the bigger better version in. (Women!)
Sidenote2 - no bucks hit that rub in the next three weeks. Only one buck and several doe came through. Rubbing behavior seems to stop once the rut is on.
Post by: fishnfur on November 23, 2018, 03:00:37 PM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on November 23, 2018, 05:52:44 PM