Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 09:05:49 PM
Post by: h20hunter on October 10, 2018, 09:09:51 PM
Nope. Not yours. Leave it alone.
Post by: bear on October 10, 2018, 09:17:43 PM
Post by: Buckmark on October 10, 2018, 09:26:43 PM
Wow i cannot believe the rationality of some people.... GD people leave stuff that is not yours alone, no matter where you find it...
Who the heck raised you????
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 09:33:38 PM
Post by: Dan-o on October 10, 2018, 09:33:53 PM
WTF, are you serious? IT IS NOT YOUR CAMERA, IT IS NOT YOUR SD CARD, DON'T F'IN TOUCH IT, it is not ABANDON, it has been placed on purpose by the owner for a specific reason.... to take pics in absence of there presence and for them to retrieve in a week, month, 3 months whatever, dont touch it, your parents did a piss poor job of raising you if you think for one minute its ok to touch it, read the card etc... Holy crap, if i park my vehicle at a trail head for a week to hike into the wilderness for the high hunt i have not abandoned it, i left it for a duration of time till i come back, it is still mine, not yours...
Wow i cannot believe the rationality of some people.... GD people leave stuff that is not yours alone, no matter where you find it...
Who the heck raised you????
Don't hold back.
Tell us how you really feel.
And yes, I would not touch another persons camera.
But there is merit to consider keeping them off public property.
Post by: Buckmark on October 10, 2018, 09:37:18 PM
I totally respect the opinion that it doesnt belong to you leave it alone. I also respect the opinion of the scenario I brought up.There is no other opinion, its not yours, leave it alone....what do you not understand about that??
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 10, 2018, 09:37:49 PM
But I don't think anyone should touch anyone else's cam or mine. I do get the point that if you took my photo without permission on public land I may be inclined or entitled to delete said photo from your card. While I agree with that right I disagree that you should mess with the cam. Yea Quandry....... ???? :dunno:
Post by: h20hunter on October 10, 2018, 09:37:54 PM
I have the tools and means to drive your truck when you are mot using it. I would not. It is theft.
I have the means to use your bbq grill while away from your camp. I would not. It is wrong.
I see no purpose of starting this all over again unless you are simply trying to get under peoples skin and stir up you know what.
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 09:42:51 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on October 10, 2018, 09:43:55 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 09:47:34 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 10, 2018, 09:51:16 PM
Simple solution to this situation, buy a bear box and a python lock and secure your property; just like you would do to your truck at the trailhead or when you leave your house and lock your door.
A Battery-powered dremel with cutoff wheel removes the python or any external lock camera box off in under 30 seconds. Need box with recessed built-in lock.
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 09:57:12 PM
I totally respect the opinion that it doesnt belong to you leave it alone. I also respect the opinion of the scenario I brought up.There is no other opinion, its not yours, leave it alone....what do you not understand about that??
Also there ARE other opinions not just yours and just because you shout the loudest doesn't make yours right. theres no need to try to bully people into silence. lets carry on a decent conversation about it.
Post by: Oh Mah on October 10, 2018, 09:58:18 PM
Your scenario is just like you saying it is out of respect that a person takes your car from a parking lot drive it around all day but bring it back with the same amount of gas it had when they took it.
Now i know you don't think that would be ok so why would you use this scenario to show that when it is done to a game cam it is ok?Do you think it is fair for people to read magazines in the store then put them back without purchase?
I and others pay good money and put in tons of man hours placing cams that run $150 or more each.this scenario of yours says a guy purchased a card reader and should be able to pull countless cards download them go home study them and steal what the other people have worked so hard on for who knows how long.
If i read all of your opinion correctly,Please give me the coordinates to the best hunting spot you have that has all the deer and elk on it so i can save all the man hours of scouting next year.
Post by: bobcat on October 10, 2018, 09:59:55 PM
Post by: bornhunter on October 10, 2018, 10:09:57 PM
Post by: grundy53 on October 10, 2018, 10:11:09 PM
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 10:14:08 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 10:17:07 PM
Sounds like welfare. I'll reap the rewards from someone else's work. Just leave other peoples stuff alone. Its that simple.
to some of us it is that simple. To others its as simple as "its on public land and its perfectly legal" Both arguments seem to be right
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 10, 2018, 10:18:50 PM
Post by: CedarPants on October 10, 2018, 10:18:55 PM
Post by: h20hunter on October 10, 2018, 10:19:24 PM
Regardless of the legal definition the thought that it makes anything right in this situation is absurd.
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 10:22:51 PM
So shallowforks you go out to a bar with your significant other, you get tired and decide to leave for the night but she stays, by your definition she’s free game, you left her in a public place. 🤔
this is a good one. to that I would say. My significant other is not my personal property but in charge of herself and fully capable of making her own decisions. lol
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 10, 2018, 10:24:52 PM
Post by: simondude on October 10, 2018, 10:27:04 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 10:27:20 PM
All you sound like is a person that uses excuses to use others efforts for your own gains. Nothing you say will change the fact you are advocating for the idea that messing with anothers camera is in some way justified. It isn't. It is not yours.
Regardless of the legal definition the thought that it makes anything right in this situation is absurd.
I respect your opinion. And remember, personally, I abide by the its not mine I will leave it alone philosophy. I just don't see the issue as cut and dry as some do.
Post by: CedarPants on October 10, 2018, 10:28:18 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 10:28:54 PM
What I really don’t like is the “staking claim” of public land that a cam represents. Suppose you and your family has been hunting a wallow/waterhole for years and now you go in to scout a couple days before the season and its got 3 cams on it? Do you hunt it? The Cam guy figures he scouted and checked cams all summer and now you are freeloading on “his” spot. No ones happy thanks to the cams. :dunno:
I totally understand this sentiment.
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 10:36:36 PM
If you find a treestand in the woods would you be fine with sitting in it? Or would you be fine with someone sitting in yours?
to be clear we are talking public land here. I would say if I found a stand I would probably not sit in it. I would also never say never, as I cant predict all scenarios. for example if I came upon a wallow and had a hot bull bugling near by and said bull started working toward the waterhole so I scanned the surrounding area for a hiding spot and I happened to see a treestand and it happened to be downwind of the incoming bull I would probably sit in it. rare scenario but possible. On the other hand, I wouldn't say Id be FINE with finding another hunter in my stand but I wouldn't me mad at him, just bummed that someone else found it. He didn't do anything wrong.
Post by: Oh Mah on October 10, 2018, 10:36:44 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 10, 2018, 10:37:31 PM
Nobody in my hunting group feels that hanging a cam makes a spot "ours". I think you are over-generalizing a bit there MagnumMaybe not but if you find a hot wallow with a cam on it you gonna plan on showing up there opening morning? The cam owner mite not mind but makes me feel intrusive.
Post by: Elkcollector82 on October 10, 2018, 10:42:36 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 10:43:01 PM
If you find a treestand in the woods would you be fine with sitting in it? Or would you be fine with someone sitting in yours?
To add to my first response if I walked into my stand and found another hunter sitting on the ground overlooking the same wallow my stand was on id say why don't you hop in my stand, you were here first and this is public land not MY spot just because I hung a stand here and youll have better odds of success up in that tree then down here on the ground.
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 10:48:18 PM
Touch someone’s trail cam and see if this “scenario” works out for you. Best of luck.
Maybe im wrong but that sounds like your willing to assault someone for not breaking any laws. Assaulting someone is never okay. Violence is never the answer. ones opinion doesnt give them the right to harm another person
Post by: Elkcollector82 on October 10, 2018, 10:58:46 PM
Touch someone’s trail cam and see if this “scenario” works out for you. Best of luck.
Maybe im wrong but that sounds like your willing to assault someone for not breaking any laws. Assaulting someone is never okay. Violence is never the answer. ones opinion doesnt give them the right to harm another person
I’m pretty sure taking pictures off someone’s sd card is theft. So stealing something of mine or anyone else’s would in return earn you a trip to the hospital.
Just my :twocents:
Post by: shallowforks on October 10, 2018, 11:07:21 PM
Touch someone’s trail cam and see if this “scenario” works out for you. Best of luck.
Maybe im wrong but that sounds like your willing to assault someone for not breaking any laws. Assaulting someone is never okay. Violence is never the answer. ones opinion doesnt give them the right to harm another person
I’m pretty sure taking pictures off someone’s sd card is theft. So stealing something of mine or anyone else’s would in return earn you a trip to the hospital.
Just my :twocents:
well it is considered theft morally speaking by most on here but its not legally considered theft. where as assault is definitely against the law . A Jury of your peers would find you guilty of a felony but would send the person your willing to assault home as a law abiding citizen. And I also never mentioned "taking" pics off of an sd card, just viewing them.
Post by: yakimanoob on October 10, 2018, 11:19:01 PM
My significant other is not my personal property but in charge of herself and fully capable of making her own decisions. lol:yeah:
Post by: yakimanoob on October 10, 2018, 11:30:43 PM
1) A game camera is absolutely in NO way abandoned property, any more than a car at the trailhead is abandoned. The analogy to driving someone else's car around is sound.
2) There is no expectation of privacy on public land, therefore it is 100% legal to take a photo of someone else either by game camera or by simply sitting and waiting for them to pass by. If you walk by someone's cam, the owner of the camera owns the photo of you. Period.
3) Most importantly, accessing someone else's memory cards is a felony under RCW 9A.90.100. http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.90.100 (http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.90.100)
Post by: yakimanoob on October 10, 2018, 11:42:30 PM
It's never wise to assume that because someone disagrees with you, or has an alternate perspective, that they're a bad person and/or raised by bad parents. Public land use and laws are tricky and often vague (e.g. the abandoned property rules). Shallowforks is not a bad person for wanting to discuss an interesting alternative viewpoint.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 11, 2018, 02:39:15 AM
“
Electronic data theft.
(1) A person is guilty of electronic data theft if he or she intentionally, without authorization, and without reasonable grounds to believe that he or she has such authorization, obtains any electronic data with the intent to:
(a) Devise or execute any scheme to defraud, deceive, extort, or commit any other crime in violation of a state law not included in this chapter; or
(b) Wrongfully control, gain access to, or obtain money, property, or electronic data.”
(2) Electronic data theft is a class C felony.
Post by: luckyman on October 11, 2018, 05:55:15 AM
Post by: RockChuck on October 11, 2018, 06:01:26 AM
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 06:32:00 AM
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 06:40:24 AM
Post by: CedarPants on October 11, 2018, 06:43:17 AM
Another thought:
It's never wise to assume that because someone disagrees with you, or has an alternate perspective, that they're a bad person and/or raised by bad parents. Public land use and laws are tricky and often vague (e.g. the abandoned property rules). Shallowforks is not a bad person for wanting to discuss an interesting alternative viewpoint.
:yeah:
Thank you for pointing that out.
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2018, 06:45:27 AM
Post by: cougforester on October 11, 2018, 06:49:52 AM
Post by: grundy53 on October 11, 2018, 06:53:39 AM
Nobody in my hunting group feels that hanging a cam makes a spot "ours". I think you are over-generalizing a bit there MagnumSame here. They are for scouting. Not staking claim to an area.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Post by: CedarPants on October 11, 2018, 06:54:59 AM
The fact that the OP labeled this thread “alternative perspective on messing with other’s game cams” says all you need to know. That implies he/she knows it’s not right.
The original thread he is referencing was titled "People messing with game cams". I took it as he was merely stating 'here's an alternative perspective to the discussion in that thread that got locked that was called ......."
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 07:00:48 AM
The fact that the OP labeled this thread “alternative perspective on messing with other’s game cams” says all you need to know. That implies he/she knows it’s not right.
The original thread he is referencing was titled "People messing with game cams". I took it as he was merely stating 'here's an alternative perspective to the discussion in that thread that got locked that was called ......."
Yes, this is why i called the thread what i called it.
We come more and more into harmony and understanding with our world by widening our viewpoint or perspective not narrowing it. Since the time I widened my viewpoint on this specific topic I have never had another issue with game cameras. Im simply offering the same opportunity for everyone else.
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 07:51:27 AM
if you find a wallet and drivers license is in plain view as soon as it is opened,Is it ok to go thru the wallet or should you just return it to the address on the drivers license?Another common sense issue.
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 11, 2018, 07:59:20 AM
Post by: hunter399 on October 11, 2018, 08:01:02 AM
If you can't afford to lose it ,don't leave on public land.
But I have had an sd card messed with before ,And it does feel crappy .Mine was that they where checking pics and deleted a few pics and would leave the rest with just doe pics .I think the temptations to delete any good pics is to great for anybody to be checking sd cards that's not there's.
:twocents:
Don't mess with it
Treat others how you wanna be treated.
Post by: BreezyBear on October 11, 2018, 08:18:01 AM
Post by: CedarPants on October 11, 2018, 08:20:52 AM
Now we accept you have your thought on this now will you allow EVERYONE ELSE to have theirs?
I feel like there are multiple examples of people expressing their thoughts in this thread that the OP has responded to saying he respects and/or understands their opinion?
To be clear, I stated in this thread earlier that I don't agree with both sides of the coin on this one. I don't think it's ok to touch someone else's cam. No reason though to come down on the guy or try to shut him up simply because he shared his thought process with everyone.
If he's trolling, he's the most polite troll I've come across in a while :chuckle:
Post by: Bob33 on October 11, 2018, 08:27:14 AM
No one has advocated that theft of a game cam is acceptable behavior.
If you place a game cam on public property, you should do so knowing that some people consider it acceptable to view the images without your consent.
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 08:30:24 AM
could be worse doesn't cover the damages done in any scenario.if you have to open it (and you're not authorized to do so)then it has been broken into,that sir is the law.
Post by: yakimanoob on October 11, 2018, 08:31:06 AM
If he's trolling, he's the most polite troll I've come across in a while :chuckle::yeah:
:chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 08:35:42 AM
with respect to you and everyone else on this forum that is exactly how the anti trolls work,get a heated discussion going all while maintaining the innocent one in the discussion and then boom start quoting violence laws and such.and still maintaining the moral high ground in the discussion and dividing the groups. :twocents:If he's trolling, he's the most polite troll I've come across in a while :chuckle::yeah:
:chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Taco280AI on October 11, 2018, 08:40:11 AM
Simple
Post by: CedarPants on October 11, 2018, 08:47:07 AM
with respect to you and everyone else on this forum that is exactly how the anti trolls work,get a heated discussion going all while maintaining the innocent one in the discussion and then boom start quoting violence laws and such.and still maintaining the moral high ground in the discussion and dividing the groups. :twocents:If he's trolling, he's the most polite troll I've come across in a while :chuckle::yeah:
:chuckle: :chuckle:
Then you should be pleased to see it's not working :tup: All I see is 5 pages of people responding in unanimous agreement that it's not ok to touch other people's cams. No division at all there.
The only division I see is a side discussion on the varying levels of civility with which people are choosing to respond. I don't think that discussion is going to split the hunting community though.
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 08:56:47 AM
Post by: Doublelunger on October 11, 2018, 09:08:14 AM
Post by: frazierw on October 11, 2018, 09:11:38 AM
In WA even looking at the pics will take your modern rifle away as a felon......
“
Electronic data theft.
(1) A person is guilty of electronic data theft if he or she intentionally, without authorization, and without reasonable grounds to believe that he or she has such authorization, obtains any electronic data with the intent to:
(a) Devise or execute any scheme to defraud, deceive, extort, or commit any other crime in violation of a state law not included in this chapter; or
(b) Wrongfully control, gain access to, or obtain money, property, or electronic data.”
(2) Electronic data theft is a class C felony.
I dont think according to this RCW, that viewing photos on someone else's SD card is against the law in any way.
Post by: yakimanoob on October 11, 2018, 09:13:36 AM
Do we have any law enforcement officers or game wardens on here, or maybe lawyers who could weigh in with a professional not personal viewpoint on whether it is or isnt a crime to tamper with, view pics or even take trail cameras on public land?I doubt any LEO would chime in on a public forum--way too risky for them to be maliciously quoted. A lawyer might weigh in I guess :dunno:
To me, this is not a grey area at all. Use of trail cameras on public land is a common practice that is perfectly legal (generally speaking). I called the Naches Ranger Station; the receptionist didn't know of any relevant regulations on game cam usage, but referred me to one of the biologists "because I know she uses cameras a lot" :chuckle:. I called WDFW and one of their communications officers stated that you can use cam cameras on public land "as long as you're not trespassing." He referred me to the Wildlife Program for anything that might be hunting/wildlife specific but generally speaking remote cameras are legal. He said he had no knowledge of any time limit on how long you can leave a camera out.
But really it's a moot point. If someone is using a camera illegally, it does not follow that you (i.e., any citizen who walks by) thus has the right to take the property. That might sound obvious. Hopefully it does sound obvious. But the point I'm making is that the "property" here includes not just the camera itself but also the card and the images captured by the camera. Hence the aforementioned RCW on data theft being a felony. [as a side note: I'm personally surprised that this is a felony. that seems rather harsh, but the law is clear...]
If it's legal to use a camera on public land, it is then illegal for another user to "mess with," view photos, take the camera, or otherwise touch it.
If it is illegal to us a camera on that particular spot, it is still illegal for another user to "mess with," view photos, take the camera, or otherwise touch it*. If you see something illegal, you call the LEO and inform them. This is no different than seeing someone illegally parked. You inform law enforcement; you don't hotwire their car and drive it off.
*There's a common exception to this if we're talking about a landowner discovering someone else's camera on their land; in that case it is perfectly acceptable for the landowner to remove the camera and turn it in to the LEOs. Of note, it is illegal for the landowner to keep the camera. Yes, I realize a lot of folks ignore this and keep the camera, but that doesn't make it legal. Again, the vehicle analogy is sound: if someone leaves their car on your property without your permission, you can call and have it towed away but you obviously don't get to keep their car.
Post by: Seahawk12 on October 11, 2018, 09:17:30 AM
By the logic of the op, if you come across his vehicle parked on public land you're welcome to use it.
Come across a camp site on public land you're welcome to take a nap in the sleeping bag and use the stove to warm your socks.
As long as nobody is around at the time.
Because that means it has all been abandoned......kind of.
Yeah. No.
I think I'll stick to being a reasonable American and leave other peoples property alone.
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 09:18:23 AM
is it data? yes
are we talking about without authority? yes
Now lets flip this to other game cam owners since it is being brought in..
What happens if a hunter goes out finds some bios game cam recording stuff for research?do you think the dept. will or will not call it theft,or vandalism or something or do you think they will just pat you on the back and say good for you you didn't hurt anything?
Post by: yakimanoob on October 11, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
The only division I see is a side discussion on the varying levels of civility with which people are choosing to respond. I don't think that discussion is going to split the hunting community though.It might not split the community, but it sure does explode and end with the mods shutting things down sometimes :chuckle: :chuckle:
As others have noted, I do think this is an interesting discussion, and I know for a fact that @shallowforks is not a troll. Go look at his other threads. The fact that he's entertaining an idea that seems obviously wrong to some in no way disqualifies him from asking about it, or justifies anyone claiming he lacks character, upbringing, etc.
Post by: CedarPants on October 11, 2018, 09:23:01 AM
The only division I see is a side discussion on the varying levels of civility with which people are choosing to respond. I don't think that discussion is going to split the hunting community though.It might not split the community, but it sure does explode and end with the mods shutting things down sometimes :chuckle: :chuckle:
As others have noted, I do think this is an interesting discussion, and I know for a fact that @shallowforks is not a troll. Go look at his other threads. The fact that he's entertaining an idea that seems obviously wrong to some in no way disqualifies him from asking about it, or justifies anyone claiming he lacks character, upbringing, etc.
Well said.
Post by: Cougartail on October 11, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
Hmm.
By the logic of the op, if you come across his vehicle parked on public land you're welcome to use it.
Come across a camp site on public land you're welcome to take a nap in the sleeping bag and use the stove to warm your socks.
As long as nobody is around at the time.
Because that means it has all been abandoned......kind of.
Yeah. No.
I think I'll stick to being a reasonable American and leave other peoples property alone.
By law you can "camp" on public land for a set amount of days, ie leave what you own on public land. It is not abandoned until those days are past and the most important part.. a public property manager deems the private party property abandoned. Pretty simple from a legal standpoint.
Post by: frazierw on October 11, 2018, 09:29:45 AM
is it electronic? yes
is it data? yes
are we talking about without authority? yes
Now lets flip this to other game cam owners since it is being brought in..
What happens if a hunter goes out finds some bios game cam recording stuff for research?do you think the dept. will or will not call it theft,or vandalism or something or do you think they will just pat you on the back and say good for you you didn't hurt anything?
The RCW loses me at intent. If you just view pictures on a game camera i dont believe you are breaking any law. I also think you could clear the SD card and you would never be convicted of any crime. I also believe it is morally wrong to do so, but legally speaking, i think you would be in the clear.
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2018, 09:43:46 AM
Post by: SuperX on October 11, 2018, 09:44:10 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 11, 2018, 09:48:11 AM
I would think digital copyright laws apply if someone took a copy of the pictures
You'd have to show a financial gain from the use of those pictures. Since wild game can't be sold, you couldn't put a monetary value on it if someone killed an animal from stealing the pictures. I've been a lawyer on the internet for some time now.
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2018, 09:53:05 AM
...look at, no copyright law broken
...erase, no copy right law broken, or was there
..take a copy of
...take a copy of and distribute
...take a copy of and distribute for financial gain
...take a copy of and put your name on it
Post by: yakimanoob on October 11, 2018, 09:55:49 AM
The RCW loses me at intent. If you just view pictures on a game camera i dont believe you are breaking any law. I also think you could clear the SD card and you would never be convicted of any crime. I also believe it is morally wrong to do so, but legally speaking, i think you would be in the clear.
(1) A person is guilty of electronic data theft if he or she intentionally, without authorization, and without reasonable grounds to believe that he or she has such authorization, obtains any electronic data with the intent to:
(a) Devise or execute any scheme to defraud, deceive, extort, or commit any other crime in violation of a state law not included in this chapter; or
(b) Wrongfully control, gain access to, or obtain money, property, or electronic data.”
(2) Electronic data theft is a class C felony.
Again I see no grey area here. Data is property under the law. Viewing is gaining access. Clearing the memory card is destruction of property.
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 09:56:36 AM
Post by: Cougartail on October 11, 2018, 09:57:36 AM
I would think digital copyright laws apply if someone took a copy of the pictures
You'd have to show a financial gain from the use of those pictures. Since wild game can't be sold, you couldn't put a monetary value on it if someone killed an animal from stealing the pictures. I've been a lawyer on the internet for some time now.
If your pictures are taken for financial gain then you are conducting business on public grounds and need a permit. I do my best legal work on the internet.
Post by: frazierw on October 11, 2018, 09:59:42 AM
The RCW loses me at intent. If you just view pictures on a game camera i dont believe you are breaking any law. I also think you could clear the SD card and you would never be convicted of any crime. I also believe it is morally wrong to do so, but legally speaking, i think you would be in the clear.
(1) A person is guilty of electronic data theft if he or she intentionally, without authorization, and without reasonable grounds to believe that he or she has such authorization, obtains any electronic data with the intent to:
(a) Devise or execute any scheme to defraud, deceive, extort, or commit any other crime in violation of a state law not included in this chapter; or
(b) Wrongfully control, gain access to, or obtain money, property, or electronic data.”
(2) Electronic data theft is a class C felony.
Again I see no grey area here. Data is property under the law. Viewing is gaining access. Clearing the memory card is destruction of property.
Do you think anyone would ever be prosecuted based on that?
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 10:01:17 AM
Post by: CedarPants on October 11, 2018, 10:08:34 AM
probably not but the Clinton's didn't either. :chuckle: :peep:
:chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2018, 10:10:44 AM
Post by: Buckmark on October 11, 2018, 10:11:07 AM
Post by: yakimanoob on October 11, 2018, 10:14:00 AM
Do you think anyone would ever be prosecuted based on that?
If all a person did was look (assuming for sake of argument that all actions could be objectively proven here), I seriously doubt they would be in much trouble with the LEO. I could see someone getting charged with this as an add-on offense. Say they were harassing someone, or obviously trying to poach an animal but messing with the camera was the only thing the LEO could prove, etc.
But, say, a LEO happens to observe @shallowforks checking a camera that belongs to the LEO, and all he did was look at the images, I seriously doubt the LEO would bother charging shallowforks with a crime. And like I said before, the fact that this is listed as a felony is pretty surprising to me. Seems like a stern talkin' to would be all you'd get if you were obviously being respectful of the camera. :dunno:
That said, I'm just BSing on this point and it doesn't change the legality of the action. It's still illegal.
Post by: yakimanoob on October 11, 2018, 10:14:53 AM
I feel the need to apologize to the OP for questioning his upbringing and disparaging his parents, that was not right and i am sorry..
Good on ya for saying so! :tup:
Post by: CedarPants on October 11, 2018, 10:15:51 AM
I feel the need to apologize to the OP for questioning his upbringing and disparaging his parents, that was not right and i am sorry..
Solid gesture right there. Good on you
Post by: Bob33 on October 11, 2018, 10:20:34 AM
I suspect a judge would have a difficult time convicting someone for simply looking at images from a publicly located camera. Is the intent to devise a scheme to defraud, or to gain access to or obtain money, property, or electronic data? While I don't agree with doing anything to the camera, I doubt looking at images on a card would ever result in felony conviction.Do you think anyone would ever be prosecuted based on that?
If all a person did was look (assuming for sake of argument that all actions could be objectively proven here), I seriously doubt they would be in much trouble with the LEO. I could see someone getting charged with this as an add-on offense. Say they were harassing someone, or obviously trying to poach an animal but messing with the camera was the only thing the LEO could prove, etc.
But, say, a LEO happens to observe @shallowforks checking a camera that belongs to the LEO, and all he did was look at the images, I seriously doubt the LEO would bother charging shallowforks with a crime. And like I said before, the fact that this is listed as a felony is pretty surprising to me. Seems like a stern talkin' to would be all you'd get if you were obviously being respectful of the camera. :dunno:
That said, I'm just BSing on this point and it doesn't change the legality of the action. It's still illegal.
(1) A person is guilty of electronic data theft if he or she intentionally, without authorization, and without reasonable grounds to believe that he or she has such authorization, obtains any electronic data with the intent to:
(a) Devise or execute any scheme to defraud, deceive, extort, or commit any other crime in violation of a state law not included in this chapter; or
(b) Wrongfully control, gain access to, or obtain money, property, or electronic data.”
(2) Electronic data theft is a class C felony.
Post by: yakimanoob on October 11, 2018, 10:23:06 AM
I don’t believe. Data as defined in the cyber crimes act Includes trail cam photos.You don't think?
"(3) "Data" means a digital representation of information, knowledge, facts, concepts, data software, data programs, or instructions that are being prepared or have been prepared in a formalized manner and are intended for use in a data network, data program, data services, or data system.
...
(7) "Data system" means an electronic device or collection of electronic devices, including support devices one or more of which contain data programs, input data, and output data, and that performs functions including, but not limited to, logic, arithmetic, data storage and retrieval, communication, and control. This term does not include calculators that are not programmable and incapable of being used in conjunction with external files."
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.90.030 (http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.90.030)
A trail cam photo is certainly a digital representation of information. The requirement to be intended for use in a "data system" seems easily satisfied, as any computer, tablet or phone would qualify as a data system under (7).
Post by: yakimanoob on October 11, 2018, 10:29:02 AM
I doubt looking at images on a card would ever result in felony conviction.
Speaking personally, I very much hope you're right. A felony conviction has a lot of consequences, none of which seem commensurate with checking photos on another dude's camera...
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2018, 10:36:05 AM
OK lets go about this in another direction instead of arguing what the definition is of a data storage device, what data is and how this all pertains to this Act.I don’t believe. Data as defined in the cyber crimes act Includes trail cam photos.You don't think?
"(3) "Data" means a digital representation of information, knowledge, facts, concepts, data software, data programs, or instructions that are being prepared or have been prepared in a formalized manner and are intended for use in a data network, data program, data services, or data system.
...
(7) "Data system" means an electronic device or collection of electronic devices, including support devices one or more of which contain data programs, input data, and output data, and that performs functions including, but not limited to, logic, arithmetic, data storage and retrieval, communication, and control. This term does not include calculators that are not programmable and incapable of being used in conjunction with external files."
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.90.030 (http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.90.030)
A trail cam photo is certainly a digital representation of information. The requirement to be intended for use in a "data system" seems easily satisfied, as any computer, tablet or phone would qualify as a data system under (7).
Find one case where tampering with a trail camera has resulted in charges, let alone a conviction due to this RCW.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 11, 2018, 10:42:57 AM
Could be data, and/or property. I wouldn't want to bet the cam owners not a ticked off lawyer or LEO just to see the pics. Lotta risk there!
I do appreciate the discussion, I may have been inclined to look at government cam pics ( public domain right?) before reading this thread. Not now.
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2018, 10:45:25 AM
Post by: Highhuntin on October 11, 2018, 10:53:25 AM
Post by: huntnfmly on October 11, 2018, 11:01:13 AM
If it's not yours don't touch it
Post by: BlackBellyHumpBack on October 11, 2018, 11:01:33 AM
Post by: frazierw on October 11, 2018, 11:11:15 AM
If you take an SD card out of someone else's camera you are now in possession of someone else's property. It is theft, if caught in that moment you can't just say as a legal defense that I was just borrowing it. Just borrowing without permission isn't legal. And the pictures you are just viewing you are stealing. If a journalist or photographer leaves a camera sitting some place public like a city park, you can't just pick it up and look thru it just because they left it there. The photos themselves have value to those who see them and you are stealing that information just by viewing it, that's why you want to view it. Its theft under many different laws.
So by your logic, if someone leaves their phone in a public place, i cant go through it to find out who the owner is to return it to them?
Post by: BlackBellyHumpBack on October 11, 2018, 11:26:20 AM
Post by: yakimanoob on October 11, 2018, 11:28:36 AM
Find one case where tampering with a trail camera has resulted in charges, let alone a conviction due to this RCW.
A fair request, but unfortunately I don't know how to look up specific cases. Is there a searchable database showing charges that have been brought before the court in Washington?
And just for the sake of clarity, are you saying you don't think it's illegal to check someone else's camera? Or just that this particular RCW doesn't apply?
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2018, 11:41:02 AM
I wouldn't touch another persons trail camera no matter how much I disagree with them. I think that is Wrong.
Post by: Timberstalker on October 11, 2018, 11:47:34 AM
Post by: yakimanoob on October 11, 2018, 11:49:45 AM
To think this ridiculous of a thread exists at all, let alone in the middle of October, blows my mind.
Listen some of us have boring day jobs OKAY. GAH. :chuckle:
Post by: Timberstalker on October 11, 2018, 11:52:41 AM
To think this ridiculous of a thread exists at all, let alone in the middle of October, blows my mind.
Listen some of us have boring day jobs OKAY. GAH. :chuckle:
I'd fire you if you were my employee, just being a part of this thread.
:chuckle:
Post by: AROTTY on October 11, 2018, 11:54:32 AM
If you really think a game cam is abandoned turn it in to a LEO. I can see a morally justifiable reason for that. But messing with a cam to take off your pics copy pics or whatever else is wrong.
Post by: Highhuntin on October 11, 2018, 12:05:04 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 11, 2018, 12:23:20 PM
Post by: Bob33 on October 11, 2018, 12:37:44 PM
Shallowforks, would you be ok with someone coming into your camp while you are out hunting (abandoning your camp) and making themselves at home? How about going through your personal belongings? Trying on your underwear?If I hang my underwear on a tree in the woods and leave it, you can try it on but I'm sure you'd want to...
Post by: yakimanoob on October 11, 2018, 01:41:11 PM
Post by: Angry Perch on October 11, 2018, 02:13:10 PM
Shallowforks, would you be ok with someone coming into your camp while you are out hunting (abandoning your camp) and making themselves at home? How about going through your personal belongings? Trying on your underwear?
That would suggest that you took more than one pair of underwear to deer camp. I guess I'm safe from the camera thief with an underwear fetish!
Post by: hunter399 on October 11, 2018, 02:17:52 PM
Well only underwear that's been well used will work on underwear fetish people. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:Shallowforks, would you be ok with someone coming into your camp while you are out hunting (abandoning your camp) and making themselves at home? How about going through your personal belongings? Trying on your underwear?
That would suggest that you took more than one pair of underwear to deer camp. I guess I'm safe from the camera thief with an underwear fetish!
Are you sure you wanna try my underwear. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: CoryTDF on October 11, 2018, 02:25:45 PM
Post by: Kamo2112 on October 11, 2018, 02:29:09 PM
This OP makes me want to gather all my hunting gear and go jump off a bridge. The death of ethical hunting and common sense is upon us. Lord help the next generation of hunters with mindsets like that of the OP it will not be long before the only hunting that is done is on an iPhone. SMH :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Read the entire thread.....It just a different way to look at the topic. Nothing wrong with the OP.
Post by: CoryTDF on October 11, 2018, 02:29:48 PM
This OP makes me want to gather all my hunting gear and go jump off a bridge. The death of ethical hunting and common sense is upon us. Lord help the next generation of hunters with mindsets like that of the OP it will not be long before the only hunting that is done is on an iPhone. SMH :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Read the entire thread.....It just a different way to look at an idea. Nothing wrong with the OP.
Read it. Hate it.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on October 11, 2018, 02:31:09 PM
on that note, I think youd be even more at risk because you are tampering with government property.FOIA just request public records pertaining to that camera and Walaah! You have a private camera and a staff of people to check it for you and report all the pictures!
Genius really!... plus wildlife bios probably know the best spots to put them. :chuckle:
Post by: StoneTrees on October 11, 2018, 02:59:00 PM
I think where things get murky is that there's a practical issue with applying this to game cameras specifically. I certainly don't think the lawmakers gave game cameras consideration when writing this law. The use of computing technology is not readily associated with hunting outside of hunting circles. Rather, the use of e-mail, computers, internet servers and the like in the business and governmental worlds were very likely at the forefront of their thoughts, in addition to widespread theft from consumers via phishing, identity theft, etc., hence the stiff felony charge. That said, I allege that the RCW was intentionally written with abstract language ("data storage" and such) to allow this law to apply to technology as it comes online, in fact the intro to the law says as much. Is your local WDFW officer going to know about this law? Not likely. Neither would a local police officer, sheriff, meter maid, or whatever, but the detectives that investigate white collar crimes likely do as crimes like this occur in that realm more frequently and warrant the stiff consequence. But if the individual caught messing with a camera is a jerk to that LEO or has other violations already to their name and the LEO happens to understand this area of the law, the offending individual just might find themselves cited with this.
Post by: WAnoob on October 11, 2018, 03:02:35 PM
I totally respect the opinion that it doesnt belong to you leave it alone. I also respect the opinion of the scenario I brought up.There is no other opinion, its not yours, leave it alone....what do you not understand about that??
So if they came along and placed their camera right above yours..you wouldn't touch it or move it? Highly doubt that.
Post by: Angry Perch on October 11, 2018, 03:07:41 PM
Post by: StoneTrees on October 11, 2018, 03:18:35 PM
Why are we even discussing the legality of this? It's legal to be a complete D-bag, or sleep with another guy's wife too.
In the immortal words of The Clash...Know Your Rights.
Isn't sleeping with someone else's spouse a subset of being a d-bag? :chuckle:
Post by: Bob33 on October 11, 2018, 03:23:06 PM
Post by: Buckmark on October 11, 2018, 03:34:01 PM
No i would not touch or move someones camera regardless if they put it on the tree next to, above, below or behind mine...Its not my camera.I totally respect the opinion that it doesnt belong to you leave it alone. I also respect the opinion of the scenario I brought up.There is no other opinion, its not yours, leave it alone....what do you not understand about that??
So if they came along and placed their camera right above yours..you wouldn't touch it or move it? Highly doubt that.
I would though without a doubt move my camera to a completely different location since the one i picked is too easy to find etc, and i would for sure pose for some pics on that cam that would rival anything posted on the people on cams thread :chuckle:
Post by: Angry Perch on October 11, 2018, 04:14:26 PM
This thread is about to go bye-bye. If anyone has anything constructive to add, now's the time.
Don't be a D-bag, don't sleep with another guy's wife, and, most importantly, DON'T TOUCH OTHER PEOPLES' TRAIL CAMERAS!
Words to live by.
Post by: bornhunter on October 11, 2018, 04:40:47 PM
Post by: bornhunter on October 11, 2018, 04:41:55 PM
Post by: Elkcollector82 on October 11, 2018, 05:07:44 PM
Post by: archer86 on October 11, 2018, 05:42:54 PM
Post by: archer86 on October 11, 2018, 06:18:27 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 07:22:42 PM
I feel the need to apologize to the OP for questioning his upbringing and disparaging his parents, that was not right and i am sorry..
No offense taken buckmark, thank you.
Post by: trophyhunt on October 11, 2018, 07:28:21 PM
on another topic is it even legal to leave game cameras in any national forest or wilderness areas? I thought they were a left as you found area preserve the natural habitat. I might be mistaken but game cameras are not part of the natural habitat and then also I see alot ot guys cutting limbs and bolting the cameras to trees which is also illegal if it's a perfectly good living tree.well, we might know who is ok with stealing cameras.....
Post by: archer86 on October 11, 2018, 07:45:36 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 07:47:02 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 07:51:21 PM
think what you want I was just asking a legitament question. if someone want to answer the question fine but no need to try and attack people for asking questions thought that is what this forum is for?
thats exactly what this forum should be about. ask away. dont worry about the critisism, it will always be there but so too will the positive feedback. the good and the bad, we take it all. I dont know the answer to your question, possibly there could be something there in regards to wilderness areas
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 07:59:04 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 08:06:24 PM
now were talking about taking the right for some business to manufacture a product that gets taxed and employs 1000's of people.I KNEW IT WOULD NOT BE LONG BEFORE THIS WENT ANTI SOMETHING.
what am I missing here. what post are you referencing?
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 08:10:41 PM
my alternative perspective on game cameras is that they should be made illegal. spend some time outdoors doing some Real scouting would do most hunters some good rather then setting up a camera and checking it every every 6 months and maybe once before hunting season and calling that scouting. take your kids out scouting as a excuse to get in the woods my daughter herd her first bugle last year and is hooked now. cant get that with a game camera. but on the original topic I hate game cams but won't touch one if I see it. might place a branch in front of the sensor if I see it though to help them get a few extra pics......jkEverything from this member since this post :yeah: I check my cams ever week
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 08:13:46 PM
Post by: archer86 on October 11, 2018, 08:16:41 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 08:18:50 PM
my alternative perspective on game cameras is that they should be made illegal. spend some time outdoors doing some Real scouting would do most hunters some good rather then setting up a camera and checking it every every 6 months and maybe once before hunting season and calling that scouting. take your kids out scouting as a excuse to get in the woods my daughter herd her first bugle last year and is hooked now. cant get that with a game camera. but on the original topic I hate game cams but won't touch one if I see it. might place a branch in front of the sensor if I see it though to help them get a few extra pics......jksir this is an attack on game cam users manufacturers and employees that make them. :twocents: fyi i take 1 of my kids every week when i check on the cams changing the sd cards and replacing apples and corn.
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 08:20:04 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 08:21:30 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 08:24:34 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 08:25:06 PM
many people have voiced their dislike of game cams on public land in this thread. So OH MAH, does that mean that if you put cams on public land that you are being disrespectful in some way to other hunters, and causing problems inside the hunting community? Do you see where im going with this?...This reads really close to the anti everything we do that say it is disrespect for us to own guns,hunt animals.eat meat waving the American flag. blah blah blah
Again :yeah:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 11, 2018, 08:25:31 PM
my alternative perspective on game cameras is that they should be made illegal. spend some time outdoors doing some Real scouting would do most hunters some good rather then setting up a camera and checking it every every 6 months and maybe once before hunting season and calling that scouting. take your kids out scouting as a excuse to get in the woods my daughter herd her first bugle last year and is hooked now. cant get that with a game camera. but on the original topic I hate game cams but won't touch one if I see it. might place a branch in front of the sensor if I see it though to help them get a few extra pics......jk
Sure you can ;)
For some, there is alot more to it than scouting. Personally I enjoy my cameras just as much, and maybe even more so, than hunting, and I live for hunting :twocents:
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 08:27:15 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 11, 2018, 08:27:40 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 08:28:00 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on October 11, 2018, 08:29:08 PM
I REPLIED TO YOUR ANTI QUESTION.
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 08:34:07 PM
Post by: shallowforks on October 11, 2018, 08:37:24 PM
Post by: archer86 on October 11, 2018, 08:37:33 PM
my alternative perspective on game cameras is that they should be made illegal. spend some time outdoors doing some Real scouting would do most hunters some good rather then setting up a camera and checking it every every 6 months and maybe once before hunting season and calling that scouting. take your kids out scouting as a excuse to get in the woods my daughter herd her first bugle last year and is hooked now. cant get that with a game camera. but on the original topic I hate game cams but won't touch one if I see it. might place a branch in front of the sensor if I see it though to help them get a few extra pics......jk
Sure you can ;)
For some, there is alot more to it than scouting. Personally I enjoy my cameras just as much, and maybe even more so, than hunting, and I live for hunting :twocents:
that is cool seen that on another post but not the same as having a bull screaming at you with in a 100 yards and you kid by your side.
I get you guys all like you game cameras it's just not for me I guess but the question still stands is it legal in national forest and wilderness area where natural habitat is suppose to be perserved if it is so be it put up as many as you want
Post by: archer86 on October 11, 2018, 09:02:04 PM
Post by: bornhunter on October 11, 2018, 09:35:45 PM
Post by: Thorny on October 11, 2018, 09:42:08 PM
Post by: IBspoiled on October 12, 2018, 05:47:08 AM
Post by: shallowforks on October 12, 2018, 05:50:53 AM
To the OP. I have to know if you're alright with cutting the lock or box to access someone elses SD card?
Good question. I think thats destruction of property. No I couldnt respect that action.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 12, 2018, 05:55:15 AM
the next related thread topic.......Picts from other peoples trail cams post them here!!!!!!!! :DOH:I would like to see someone post the pictures from the cams stolen from mine. Maybe there is some nice cougar, bear or even wolves on it.
Post by: shallowforks on October 12, 2018, 05:56:39 AM
Thorny maybe we should take him on a hike. Maybe he would have a different outlook on guys hiking in and setting up trail cams. Equal pack weight. Bet he taps out before mile 3.
I love to go hiking with you guys. We could have a great conversation while we hike. In person is always better than online. If your serious pm me. We could meet halfway, maybe east slope of cascades somewhere?
Post by: Bob33 on October 12, 2018, 06:30:44 AM