Post by: Ridgerunner on October 22, 2018, 08:14:38 PM
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Post by: Birdguy on October 22, 2018, 08:21:02 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on October 22, 2018, 08:22:46 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 22, 2018, 08:24:14 PM
Just what the mulies needed this year to help the herds recover a bit. :tup: :tup:
Post by: cougforester on October 22, 2018, 08:47:22 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 22, 2018, 08:48:58 PM
Many of us aren't even pursuing muleys anymore in WA. Numbers are horrid in general. I don't even see a rebound in the near future. Makes me sick.
:yeah:
Post by: hunter399 on October 22, 2018, 09:12:08 PM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 22, 2018, 09:19:28 PM
Post by: 3nails on October 22, 2018, 09:24:16 PM
Post by: RB on October 22, 2018, 09:27:53 PM
I know giving up anything to the WDFW is hard to talk about but maybe Mule Deer should go to permit only?? Something needs to be done to build the herds back, even the sign I was seeing was less than years past. :twocents:
Post by: slowhand on October 22, 2018, 09:59:43 PM
Post by: CLARKTAR on October 22, 2018, 10:04:00 PM
The weather was horrible for Deer hunting in the NE should have packed sunscreen. The only place I found good sign was a fair distance into the nastiest dog hair blow down patch I could find, and then only does. Saw a few after dark and in the morning before light.Yep! Horrible weather. I just left the N.E. part if the state and look forward to blacktail hunting. It was nice to hike a new area I guess ..
I know giving up anything to the WDFW is hard to talk about but maybe Mule Deer should go to permit only?? Something needs to be done to build the herds back, even the sign I was seeing was less than years past. :twocents:
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Post by: hambone on October 22, 2018, 10:11:07 PM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on October 23, 2018, 04:52:44 AM
Going to be an explosion of blacktail bucks being posted in the next 10 days.I agree, usually the does are atleast out n about to look at but not so much this year
Post by: headshot5 on October 23, 2018, 05:09:34 AM
Post by: CougHunter on October 23, 2018, 05:17:05 AM
This was my third year of hunting and looking like my third year of tag soup. I had one of my most amazing weekends in the outdoors last weekend, but at the same time it's getting old seeing tons of deer and nothing legal. My wife has a lot of coworkers who have quit hunting due to low success. I'm in it for the long haul, but I feel ridiculous for not being able to harvest one after dedicating thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 23, 2018, 05:34:46 AM
Post by: Scuffy on October 23, 2018, 06:27:15 AM
Post by: singleshot12 on October 23, 2018, 06:36:13 AM
A few more years WDFW is gonna have a hard time selling tags.
Maybe when sales go way down something will finally be done about the predator problem :dunno:
Post by: RockChuck on October 23, 2018, 06:51:34 AM
Post by: Southpole on October 23, 2018, 06:52:34 AM
Naw, this is what the upper management of the department has been working towards to eliminate hunting all together. Looks like it’s working pretty good.A few more years WDFW is gonna have a hard time selling tags.
Maybe when sales go way down something will finally be done about the predator problem :dunno:
Post by: timberfaller on October 23, 2018, 06:53:09 AM
Its been slowly going downhill since the late 70's and then took a drastic turn after the 2015 fire season.
Until there is a "ideology" change in Olympia YOU'LL never see it get better!
Remember, "the Methow herd is in great shape" and "the 2016 winter was so mild the herd didn't migrate out of the high country" right from the "horses mouth" WDFW :yike:
Post by: Southpole on October 23, 2018, 07:01:11 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 23, 2018, 07:08:08 AM
Many of us aren't even pursuing muleys anymore in WA. Numbers are horrid in general. I don't even see a rebound in the near future. Makes me sick.spot on. I refuse to assist in the continued destruction of washington mule deer. My daughter has a doe tag over in the wheat country that we will hunt but even that kind of stings. Cant wait till she is ten and can hunt idaho.
Post by: mburrows on October 23, 2018, 07:18:48 AM
I agree with permit only for muleys. No more over the counter mule deer tags.
This, better predator management and better protecting winter ranges all need to happen.
Post by: singleshot12 on October 23, 2018, 07:20:09 AM
Naw, this is what the upper management of the department has been working towards to eliminate hunting all together. Looks like it’s working pretty good.A few more years WDFW is gonna have a hard time selling tags.
Maybe when sales go way down something will finally be done about the predator problem :dunno:
Do you think the folks in upper management are anti-hunting or just plain ignorant to wildlife management?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 23, 2018, 07:31:38 AM
there needs to be a full on assault on all things detrimental to mule deer. Habitat, predators, hunting pressure, vehicle collisions :twocents:I agree with permit only for muleys. No more over the counter mule deer tags.
This, better predator management and better protecting winter ranges all need to happen.
Post by: woodswalker on October 23, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
Naw, this is what the upper management of the department has been working towards to eliminate hunting all together. Looks like it’s working pretty good.A few more years WDFW is gonna have a hard time selling tags.
Maybe when sales go way down something will finally be done about the predator problem :dunno:
Do you think the folks in upper management are anti-hunting or just plain ignorant to wildlife management?
Mostly and to the greater extent the former, but also the latter. When a Methow wildlife Bio tells me that he is glad that the weather is not pushing the migrating herd down, so we hunters don't mess up his buck/doe ratios...That tells me all i needed to know about the Department's priorities.
Post by: jackelope on October 23, 2018, 07:34:28 AM
Many of us aren't even pursuing muleys anymore in WA. Numbers are horrid in general. I don't even see a rebound in the near future. Makes me sick.
:yeah:
I never thought I would say this, but I think I might almost be there myself...told Dale that yesterday. It's rough spending an entire weekend in country that usually has at least some deer in it and not seeing any deer at all.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 23, 2018, 07:36:24 AM
I agree with him. That's not anti hunter that's pro mule deer sir :twocents:Naw, this is what the upper management of the department has been working towards to eliminate hunting all together. Looks like it’s working pretty good.A few more years WDFW is gonna have a hard time selling tags.
Maybe when sales go way down something will finally be done about the predator problem :dunno:
Do you think the folks in upper management are anti-hunting or just plain ignorant to wildlife management?
Mostly and to the greater extent the former, but also the latter. When a Methow wildlife Bio tells me that he is glad that the weather is not pushing the migrating herd down, so we hunters don't mess up his buck/doe ratios...That tells me all i needed to know about the Department's priorities.
Post by: Southpole on October 23, 2018, 07:41:03 AM
I think it’s both, but like another member on this site stated in another thread, the “type” of people that are moving in to the state or city folks moving to rural areas, are opposed to hunting and they love their predators. They also seem to have a lot of money and leverage. People like us are getting out voted and squeezed out. It’s unfortunate but it’s reality.Naw, this is what the upper management of the department has been working towards to eliminate hunting all together. Looks like it’s working pretty good.A few more years WDFW is gonna have a hard time selling tags.
Maybe when sales go way down something will finally be done about the predator problem :dunno:
Do you think the folks in upper management are anti-hunting or just plain ignorant to wildlife management?
Post by: woodswalker on October 23, 2018, 07:41:54 AM
In addition the 3 point minimum seems to be selecting for two point genetics...I saw a total of about 30 deer opening weekend, only 4 bucks, 2 spikes and 2 two-pointers... one of which was HUGE. All the deer i saw were between 2500 and 4600 feet. Except the hordes in town...which i didn't count...but there were likely over 70 total.
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 23, 2018, 07:44:29 AM
In addition the 3 point minimum seems to be selecting for two point genetics...I saw a total of about 30 deer opening weekend, only 4 bucks, 2 spikes and 2 two-pointers... one of which was HUGE. All the deer i saw were between 2500 and 4600 feet. Except the hordes in town...which i didn't count...but there were likely over 70 total.
Get any pics of the huge two point?
Post by: C-Money on October 23, 2018, 08:49:24 AM
Post by: ThurstonCokid on October 23, 2018, 08:53:09 AM
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Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 23, 2018, 09:19:52 AM
We’ve had some big fires, and 2015 was a big harvest by a lot of hunters, it’s gonna take time to come back from that it don’t happen overnight.
Calling for the opportunity to just hunt every year to be taken away(permit only) is a little reaching. Better off pay attention to your driving skills in winter range to avoid smacking deer on the hwys, and spend more time predators hunting
Post by: heavyhorned on October 23, 2018, 09:30:48 AM
Post by: ghosthunter on October 23, 2018, 09:31:11 AM
We hunted our traditional spot and nothing.
We know of two or three taken.
We had 8 to 12 hunters in camp during the season. Two saw a buck. Of any kind.
No more than two dozen does were seen by all of us.
We hunted every day. Before light to noon or longer ,back out 3 pm till dark.
Terrible.
Side note.... The muzzy elk was no better. I would not have gone without a cow tag.But four guys wanted to go. Those I said ok. We found between us 24 carcasses.
Saw one spike before season opened. Maybe a dozen cows.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on October 23, 2018, 09:42:54 AM
I don't want to take away anyone's opportunity to hunt, even though my personal preference would be permit only for mule deer. I had last weekend free, the wife's blessing to go hunt, and ... meh. Just not feeling like hunting local mule deer. It does look like the 2017 fawns had good survival and recruitment, 2018 had good fawn production, and the forecast for an upcoming El Nino winter is hopeful for good recruitment of this year's fawns. It is going to take an increase in herd size before good numbers of bucks are recruited.Many of us aren't even pursuing muleys anymore in WA. Numbers are horrid in general. I don't even see a rebound in the near future. Makes me sick.
:yeah:
I never thought I would say this, but I think I might almost be there myself...told Dale that yesterday. It's rough spending an entire weekend in country that usually has at least some deer in it and not seeing any deer at all.
Post by: woodswalker on October 23, 2018, 09:48:57 AM
Unlimited OTC tags, small winter range, historically low numbers, high predators…something has to give. The mule deer herds in Central Washington deserve to get as many healthy deer as possible down onto winter range for several years. There are still plenty whitetail and blacktail :dunno:In addition the 3 point minimum seems to be selecting for two point genetics...I saw a total of about 30 deer opening weekend, only 4 bucks, 2 spikes and 2 two-pointers... one of which was HUGE. All the deer i saw were between 2500 and 4600 feet. Except the hordes in town...which i didn't count...but there were likely over 70 total.
Get any pics of the huge two point?
No I didn't..but was up close (35 yards) and he was probably 2.5"+ in diameter at the bases and the forks were easily 1.75 at the fork and 16-18" tall. Probably 20" spread. Phone was in my pack that day as i had almost lost it the previous day. He was definitely older, slightly grey at the muzzle.
Post by: C-Money on October 23, 2018, 02:22:01 PM
Post by: Southpole on October 23, 2018, 02:39:43 PM
Heavyhorned makes a good point. We too, saw an above average number of coyotes this season.We saw an over abundant amount of coyote sign in the Rimrock as well. After my friend had shot his elk it wasn't more than 5 minutes later there was a pack of coyotes barking and yipping not very far from us. Seen an over abundant of cat sign too.
Post by: andrebeergog on October 23, 2018, 06:41:55 PM
Post by: wheels on October 24, 2018, 11:36:46 AM
Post by: singleshot12 on October 24, 2018, 11:46:57 AM
I think it’s both, but like another member on this site stated in another thread, the “type” of people that are moving in to the state or city folks moving to rural areas, are opposed to hunting and they love their predators. They also seem to have a lot of money and leverage. People like us are getting out voted and squeezed out. It’s unfortunate but it’s reality.Naw, this is what the upper management of the department has been working towards to eliminate hunting all together. Looks like it’s working pretty good.A few more years WDFW is gonna have a hard time selling tags.
Maybe when sales go way down something will finally be done about the predator problem :dunno:
Do you think the folks in upper management are anti-hunting or just plain ignorant to wildlife management?
Well something should of been set in stone by now - - That Does Not Allow non Hunters Dictate on how we hunt and manage our game. We need a dept.that works for us again. Currently they seem to only take out money and use it to appease the bleeding heart greenies :twocents:
Post by: headshot5 on October 24, 2018, 12:00:21 PM
Post by: C-Money on October 24, 2018, 12:40:24 PM
Post by: The Marquis on October 24, 2018, 12:55:00 PM
Never seen a yote on ground I could blast him on. But did see a LOT traveling from spot to spot over the road. They would have been eliminated if I could have done so legally.
This is the case for me as well. I see yotes, but never on land I can shoot on. Heard a bunch this deer season though, in the dark, very nearby before legal hunting hours. Never was able to get a look at them.
Post by: wheels on October 24, 2018, 01:10:28 PM
Post by: Southpole on October 24, 2018, 01:11:51 PM
Any of you guys who are seeing increased numbers of coyotes and bears while deer hunting killing any of them? It's pretty rare when I turn down a shot at a coyote even in my deer hunting spots.I would definitely, if I had the opportunity, since shooting a deer is low on my priority (unless I see an absolute monster!), my hunting priorities are predators first for me.
Post by: bigmacc on October 24, 2018, 04:35:10 PM
Any of you guys who are seeing increased numbers of coyotes and bears while deer hunting killing any of them? It's pretty rare when I turn down a shot at a coyote even in my deer hunting spots.
Our group took out 4 yotes. Fresh bear sign everywhere in the Methow, heard of at least 5 bear killed in 218 and 224, seen a big boy in the back of a truck at pardners, had a bear tag but the one I actually seen up close and personal was at about 3 o'clock in the A.M. Cat tracks everywhere in the Methow also, heard of 2 being killed in 218 and 224, I seen one for about 10 seconds as it jumped from one rock outcropping to another, couldn't get a shot off. Fresh wolf sign in 218 and 224, more than I have seen since wolves were in there, seen 6 fresh piles in different areas of 218 that weren't probably more than a week or so old. Lots of deer being killed in that valley every day of the year I,m afraid, pretty soon it takes a toll and thats what we are seeing the results of now. You wonder just how many deer are getting picked off over there each month by the over abundance of predators. Seems like every year we are finding more and more bone piles, partially buried cached kills, and limping or wounded deer walking around.
Post by: KB88 on October 24, 2018, 05:58:44 PM
Post by: Muleyslyr on October 24, 2018, 05:58:54 PM
Post by: swanny on October 24, 2018, 08:16:09 PM
I'll echo the coyote comment. My wife went out for her first time ever this year. Opening morning we got to a nice little glassing spot and saw coyotes all around walking in. Within the first 20-30minutes of sitting, we had at least 8 run by us and saw numerous more (or the same ones?) throughout the morning. First thing in the morning I wasn't ready to shoot, but by 9:30 I was willing, but didn't get my shot off quick enough.
Post by: kodiak10 on October 24, 2018, 09:11:23 PM
Post by: grade-creek-rd on October 25, 2018, 04:18:16 PM
Grade
PS. Heavyhorned didn't mention it but it was his wife's first deer...Congrats!
Post by: jstone on October 25, 2018, 04:53:39 PM
Post by: powderbounder on October 25, 2018, 08:22:40 PM
Post by: Thehowler on October 26, 2018, 05:54:41 AM
More hunters every year.
Post by: adamR on October 26, 2018, 06:36:00 AM
I saw more coyotes than I've ever seen, including one pack that had 8 running together. Cougar sign everywhere!
I've ran through going to permit only for mule deer in my head but, and I apologize for taking the thread here, what's the point in doing permit only when indians will still have unregulated harvest numbers. Wdfw has got to figure out a way to monitor Indian harvest and work together to increase the herd numbers. I'm not saying that we should take anything away from them but, at the very least, we have to include there harvest numbers when deciding the future of our mule deer.
Also, I think there's too many roads! Everywhere I hunt I hear the stupid atvs and side by side. And it's really starting to piss me off when I see a side by side driving through sage brush out in the middle of nowhere and it doesn't do any good to call the game department. Yakima county has three officers! What can you expect out of them, being so stretched?
Sorry, rant over...
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 26, 2018, 09:07:42 AM
Not happy with deer numbers in WA so I’ll go hunt another state.
Another irony is seems that a lot of folks that have killed a lot of big bucks are the ones who are most adamant about saving the herds and calling for reduced opportunity.....hmmmm
If y’all continue to yearly take out the best breeders it’s not hard to see that is also part of the problem.
Have y’all forgot that hunting is more than killing a trophy buck every year?
It should be about family and friends enjoying the outdoors.......don’t need to kill a buck every year to do that.
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Post by: The Marquis on October 26, 2018, 09:10:59 AM
Post by: no.cen.wa on October 26, 2018, 09:27:03 AM
As far as draw for mule deer, I'm not much on it, been trying for 21 years the get quality draw for 224, I started when I was 48,, and,,, well, you do the math.
I believe the mule deer in NCW NEED less hunting pressure, less days by all groups, at least 1/2 the amount of days!
The WDFW is NOT managing the mule deer herd in NCW at all! Well they won't have to for long, the herd will be gone. :twocents:
nough said, for now
John G
Post by: 206 on October 26, 2018, 09:30:56 AM
Post by: Bullmoose on October 26, 2018, 09:36:40 AM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 26, 2018, 09:59:50 AM
2015 was a banner year for many. Just paying the dues now. Imo
Post by: CougHunter on October 26, 2018, 10:36:37 AM
Also, a lot of coyotes are seen, but not shot. That's not helping a thing. If I see a coyote, I'm shooting the :sry: out of it and all of it's fur covered buddies.
It's interesting that there's research to suggest that shooting coyotes actually spreads them out and increases their numbers. I still took a shot at one last weekend, but I feel a little more conflicted about it lately.
There are many days out in Eastern WA where I end up seeing more coyotes than deer. I'd like to see their numbers drop. I still try to shoot them, but I wish there was more research looking into the impacts of this.
Post by: bigmacc on October 26, 2018, 10:47:56 AM
Also, a lot of coyotes are seen, but not shot. That's not helping a thing. If I see a coyote, I'm shooting the :sry: out of it and all of it's fur covered buddies.
It's interesting that there's research to suggest that shooting coyotes actually spreads them out and increases their numbers. I still took a shot at one last weekend, but I feel a little more conflicted about it lately.
There are many days out in Eastern WA where I end up seeing more coyotes than deer. I'd like to see their numbers drop. I still try to shoot them, but I wish there was more research looking into the impacts of this.
Keep shooting them, show no mercy on them, I seen 3 of them drag a 2 or 3 day old fawn out of a small thicket this spring, nasty animals. Trust me they are everywhere they don't need to be shot at to spread out.
Post by: MtnMuley on October 26, 2018, 11:10:52 AM
Another irony is seems that a lot of folks that have killed a lot of big bucks are the ones who are most adamant about saving the herds and calling for reduced opportunity.....hmmmm
I'm lost on the irony there? Perhaps a lot of the guys who have killed a lot of big bucks know more than the average Joe and have noticed sharp declined in deer populations all over NCW and decided to hang up their weapons for a few years. I'm not telling others to follow my path, but looking for ways to increase herd health. There is no doubt in my mind that myself and several others could continue to kill mature bucks here if we chose to, but we don't. Unfortunately things change for the worse a lot more these days, so if having limited draw seasons is what it's going to take to be able to rebuild this herd, then I'm all for it. It affects me just like it affects you.
Have y’all forgot that hunting is more than killing a trophy buck every year?
Absolutely. That's why myself and friends have devoted a lot of our free time these days in helping the next generation of youth harvest their first animals.
Be careful who you selectively single out here, as I don't think they're your real threat. :tup:
Post by: boneaddict on October 26, 2018, 11:24:28 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 26, 2018, 11:47:52 AM
:yeah: spot on:yeah: I'd be as so bold to say the guys who consistently kill, especially mature animals, have a far better grasp on herd dynamics, predation, habitat, etc. Than the guy who bumbles into a 2.5yo buck once a decade or so. I can probably speak for mtnmuley, bone, and some others when I say we care more about mule deer than we care about mule deer hunting. Because without the one, you cannot do the other :twocents:
Post by: Taco280AI on October 26, 2018, 11:51:01 AM
I'm not having trouble finding elk. In fact I found some today and the bulls are still bugling! I'm finding does too, 20 does and fawns today, with one little herd of 12. Find them every time. But where are the bucks?? There aren't any bucks with any of the does. Not hanging out near them, not sniffing them. Just not there.
I go 3-5 miles off the roads, up 2500-3500 feet in elevation gain... no bucks.
Post by: MtnMuley on October 26, 2018, 12:28:48 PM
Amen:yeah: spot on:yeah: I'd be as so bold to say the guys who consistently kill, especially mature animals, have a far better grasp on herd dynamics, predation, habitat, etc. Than the guy who bumbles into a 2.5yo buck once a decade or so. I can probably speak for mtnmuley, bone, and some others when I say we care more about mule deer than we care about mule deer hunting. Because without the one, you cannot do the other :twocents:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 26, 2018, 12:34:13 PM
Post by: hunter399 on October 26, 2018, 01:16:22 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 26, 2018, 02:37:48 PM
I believe you missed my point. :dunno:your point was noted but I do not agree. I never accept the argument that people make that just because an individual targets mature animals that that said person doesn't care about the hunt or the traditions that's around it. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I'd go as far and saying that those who would like to sell for strict and not continue to deplete a dwindling resource CareMore about to tradition and the hunt as we want to see it continue for years to come. I want to see my children and my grandchildren hunt far more than I want to pull triggers myself. :twocents:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 26, 2018, 03:27:32 PM
Another irony is seems that a lot of folks that have killed a lot of big bucks are the ones who are most adamant about saving the herds and calling for reduced opportunity.....hmmmm
I'm lost on the irony there? Perhaps a lot of the guys who have killed a lot of big bucks know more than the average Joe and have noticed sharp declined in deer populations all over NCW and decided to hang up their weapons for a few years. I'm not telling others to follow my path, but looking for ways to increase herd health. There is no doubt in my mind that myself and several others could continue to kill mature bucks here if we chose to, but we don't. Unfortunately things change for the worse a lot more these days, so if having limited draw seasons is what it's going to take to be able to rebuild this herd, then I'm all for it. It affects me just like it affects you.Have y’all forgot that hunting is more than killing a trophy buck every year?
Absolutely. That's why myself and friends have devoted a lot of our free time these days in helping the next generation of youth harvest their first animals.
Be careful who you selectively single out here, as I don't think they're your real threat. :tup:
Not singling out anyone, heck I have killed a buck in WA every year but 1 for the last 37 years, so I am well aware of the fact that I have a part in the decline of the herds too.
I too have seen the reduction in deer numbers, but I am not so fond of the "lets have draw hunting to save the deer herds" mentality either.
As its been covered on here many times, Deer herd health is affected by a plethora of things, predation(human and animal), vehicle strikes, weather, fires, habitat loss, poaching, tribal overharvest, genetics, too much pressure, disease, etc. There are way to many things that can be done to help the deer rebound before we all start calling for reduced opportunity.
1. More deer are killed by vehicles every year than taken by hunters....(Build more hwy fencing, and drive safer)
2. Predators kill more ungulates than hunters every year.....(more folks need to actively hunt predators)
3. Muti-season permits put too much pressure on ungulates......(do away with this and return to one weapon tags)
4. Fires kill lots of deer both direct and indirect.....(Let it burn policy makes me wanna puke.)
5. Poaching.....(Hire more WDFW LEO's and have them be F&W wardens, not general LEO)
6. Tribal Overharvest......(No clue on how to fix this, but it's needed)
Just because someone has killed alot of big bucks, does not mean they know more about deer than the average Joe. (ie: young, strong and healthy do not equate to knowledge) Willing to bet there are quite a few folks that know mule deer very well.....but have not killed alot of big ones, Thats OK, its about enjoying your time in nature....however you wish to.....not up to another persons standards.
Someone mentioned an odd or even system. A couple scenarios to think about; Father and child, hunting buddy and you, someones traditional camp....all could be broken up to hunt different years. Not a good way to promote our passion and bring new folks in to it.
Same scenarios would apply to a draw only system.
Deer numbers have, and always will fluctuate. That is something that we as humans can only pretend that we know what is best for them IMHO.
Post by: Mtnwalker on October 26, 2018, 03:27:53 PM
a lot of irony in this thread. Folks want more/ better deer......for what?, so we can go shoot them.
Not happy with deer numbers in WA so I’ll go hunt another state.
Another irony is seems that a lot of folks that have killed a lot of big bucks are the ones who are most adamant about saving the herds and calling for reduced opportunity.....hmmmm
If y’all continue to yearly take out the best breeders it’s not hard to see that is also part of the problem.
Have y’all forgot that hunting is more than killing a trophy buck every year?
It should be about family and friends enjoying the outdoors.......don’t need to kill a buck every year to do that.
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I don't think many guys on either of these threads are expecting to or even saying that they want to kill a buck every single year. And if you say "don't need to kill a buck every year" then why argue with the guys who want a more quality experience and are willing to possibly hunt less frequently in order to achieve that? Like Karl said I think the guys who care most about the condition of the herds are the guys who are willing to sacrifice and not shoot a buck every single year. Me personally, I have eaten my last 6 years worth of multi season tags in search of a buck that does something for me. Does that make me a trophy hunter? Sure I guess, but definitely not a guy who expects to "kill a trophy buck every year"
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 26, 2018, 03:32:52 PM
I believe you missed my point. :dunno:your point was noted but I do not agree. I never accept the argument that people make that just because an individual targets mature animals that that said person doesn't care about the hunt or the traditions that's around it. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I'd go as far and saying that those who would like to sell for strict and not continue to deplete a dwindling resource CareMore about to tradition and the hunt as we want to see it continue for years to come. I want to see my children and my grandchildren hunt far more than I want to pull triggers myself. :twocents:
I Never said folks dont care.
Could that be because you HAVE been very successful at deer hunting? Would you have the same feelings if you loved hunting, but were only successful every so often?
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 26, 2018, 03:38:25 PM
a lot of irony in this thread. Folks want more/ better deer......for what?, so we can go shoot them.
Not happy with deer numbers in WA so I’ll go hunt another state.
Another irony is seems that a lot of folks that have killed a lot of big bucks are the ones who are most adamant about saving the herds and calling for reduced opportunity.....hmmmm
If y’all continue to yearly take out the best breeders it’s not hard to see that is also part of the problem.
Have y’all forgot that hunting is more than killing a trophy buck every year?
It should be about family and friends enjoying the outdoors.......don’t need to kill a buck every year to do that.
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I don't think many guys on either of these threads are expecting to or even saying that they want to kill a buck every single year. And if you say "don't need to kill a buck every year" then why argue with the guys who want a more quality experience and are willing to possibly hunt less frequently in order to achieve that? Like Karl said I think the guys who care most about the condition of the herds are the guys who are willing to sacrifice and not shoot a buck every single year. Me personally, I have eaten my last 6 years worth of multi season tags in search of a buck that does something for me. Does that make me a trophy hunter? Sure I guess, but definitely not a guy who expects to "kill a trophy buck every year"
Not trying to argue, Just that there are lots more folks out there who have not been as successful......and enjoy being able to hunt every year whether they kill a adeer or not.
Everyone wants a more quality experience.
Post by: Mtnwalker on October 26, 2018, 04:05:13 PM
Also, a lot of coyotes are seen, but not shot. That's not helping a thing. If I see a coyote, I'm shooting the :sry: out of it and all of it's fur covered buddies.
It's interesting that there's research to suggest that shooting coyotes actually spreads them out and increases their numbers. I still took a shot at one last weekend, but I feel a little more conflicted about it lately.
There are many days out in Eastern WA where I end up seeing more coyotes than deer. I'd like to see their numbers drop. I still try to shoot them, but I wish there was more research looking into the impacts of this.
It's sure working in Utah right now. Something like a 25% increase in deer in the last 4 years since they started their bounty
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 26, 2018, 04:06:36 PM
Another thing I don't get is the thought that somehow these established camps that have been hunting for Generations would just stop because only half the guys in Camp had tags. I know that if my old man had a deer tag and I didn't I would still be going because I love the hunt. Many other states successfully run draw only systems. I would love to have over-the-counter hunting everywhere but it's just not reality. We've had over the counter hunting since I've been alive and it's not working. We have to actively start attacking these different aspects of management if we want our grandchildren to hunt mule deer in Washington.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 26, 2018, 04:08:17 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 26, 2018, 04:12:42 PM
Post by: Mtnwalker on October 26, 2018, 04:19:11 PM
I think we are mostly on the same page my friend and even though I heartily disagree with you about fire suppression your points are all spot on. Even with all of those plans in place I would still want a permit system.
Another thing I don't get is the thought that somehow these established camps that have been hunting for Generations would just stop because only half the guys in Camp had tags. I know that if my old man had a deer tag and I didn't I would still be going because I love the hunt. Many other states successfully run draw only systems. I would love to have over-the-counter hunting everywhere but it's just not reality. We've had over the counter hunting since I've been alive and it's not working. We have to actively start attacking these different aspects of management if we want our grandchildren to hunt mule deer in Washington.
Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't we pretty much the only mule deer state with untlimited tags? Off the top of my head it seems like every other state has some sort of quota, cap, or controlled draw in place.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 26, 2018, 04:25:48 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 26, 2018, 04:37:47 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 26, 2018, 04:59:17 PM
I would never make the assumption that being young and ambitious makes a guy more knowledgable than a guy with double the seasons under his belt but I'd also counter that just because a guy has more seasons under his belt doesnt make him more knowledgeable than a younger guy who has fully dedicated his world to learning his prey. Basically years mean nothing....its the quality of years and knowledge gained that matter :tup:
Post by: Stein on October 26, 2018, 05:03:14 PM
I think we are mostly on the same page my friend and even though I heartily disagree with you about fire suppression your points are all spot on. Even with all of those plans in place I would still want a permit system.
Another thing I don't get is the thought that somehow these established camps that have been hunting for Generations would just stop because only half the guys in Camp had tags. I know that if my old man had a deer tag and I didn't I would still be going because I love the hunt. Many other states successfully run draw only systems. I would love to have over-the-counter hunting everywhere but it's just not reality. We've had over the counter hunting since I've been alive and it's not working. We have to actively start attacking these different aspects of management if we want our grandchildren to hunt mule deer in Washington.
Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't we pretty much the only mule deer state with untlimited tags? Off the top of my head it seems like every other state has some sort of quota, cap, or controlled draw in place.
Montana. They manage for opportunity vs trophy potential in general. You can hunt mule deer in the rut with a rifle every year if you are a resident and just about every year as a non-resident.
Post by: bigmacc on October 26, 2018, 05:24:43 PM
Another irony is seems that a lot of folks that have killed a lot of big bucks are the ones who are most adamant about saving the herds and calling for reduced opportunity.....hmmmm
I'm lost on the irony there? Perhaps a lot of the guys who have killed a lot of big bucks know more than the average Joe and have noticed sharp declined in deer populations all over NCW and decided to hang up their weapons for a few years. I'm not telling others to follow my path, but looking for ways to increase herd health. There is no doubt in my mind that myself and several others could continue to kill mature bucks here if we chose to, but we don't. Unfortunately things change for the worse a lot more these days, so if having limited draw seasons is what it's going to take to be able to rebuild this herd, then I'm all for it. It affects me just like it affects you.Have y’all forgot that hunting is more than killing a trophy buck every year?
Absolutely. That's why myself and friends have devoted a lot of our free time these days in helping the next generation of youth harvest their first animals.
Be careful who you selectively single out here, as I don't think they're your real threat. :tup:
Not singling out anyone, heck I have killed a buck in WA every year but 1 for the last 37 years, so I am well aware of the fact that I have a part in the decline of the herds too.
I too have seen the reduction in deer numbers, but I am not so fond of the "lets have draw hunting to save the deer herds" mentality either.
As its been covered on here many times, Deer herd health is affected by a plethora of things, predation(human and animal), vehicle strikes, weather, fires, habitat loss, poaching, tribal overharvest, genetics, too much pressure, disease, etc. There are way to many things that can be done to help the deer rebound before we all start calling for reduced opportunity.
1. More deer are killed by vehicles every year than taken by hunters....(Build more hwy fencing, and drive safer)
2. Predators kill more ungulates than hunters every year.....(more folks need to actively hunt predators)
3. Muti-season permits put too much pressure on ungulates......(do away with this and return to one weapon tags)
4. Fires kill lots of deer both direct and indirect.....(Let it burn policy makes me wanna puke.)
5. Poaching.....(Hire more WDFW LEO's and have them be F&W wardens, not general LEO)
6. Tribal Overharvest......(No clue on how to fix this, but it's needed)
Just because someone has killed alot of big bucks, does not mean they know more about deer than the average Joe. (ie: young, strong and healthy do not equate to knowledge) Willing to bet there are quite a few folks that know mule deer very well.....but have not killed alot of big ones, Thats OK, its about enjoying your time in nature....however you wish to.....not up to another persons standards.
Someone mentioned an odd or even system. A couple scenarios to think about; Father and child, hunting buddy and you, someones traditional camp....all could be broken up to hunt different years. Not a good way to promote our passion and bring new folks in to it.
Same scenarios would apply to a draw only system.
Deer numbers have, and always will fluctuate. That is something that we as humans can only pretend that we know what is best for them IMHO.
With all due respect NOCK NOCK, I do agree with a lot of what your saying, a lot of your 6 examples I agree with but most of them have a lot to do with managing our herds which IMHO is what has been suffering for years, hence thats why in my opinion we need a Game Department again. As far as killing a big buck every year, I have taken my share (53 at this point in my life, all Methow Mule deer), some have been wall hangers some have been spikes and 2 points back in the day, for me its about respecting the animal no matter how big, heck my great grandma would never let us hang a deer head down on the ridge pole(even though they are easier to clean :bash:) because in her mind "they were a proud animal and should always be hung with there head held high" and that tradition of respect is still in our camp today. All the deer my family has killed in the Methow going back to 1917(over 800 bucks)are all trophies and all have special memories attached no matter their size. Its out of that respect why for me anyway I have not purchased a tag in 3 years, I don't frown on those who do but something, heck a lot of things need to be done to save our historic mule deer herds(Methow and Entiat) before they pass the point of no return. There are a couple of us in our camp that have not purchased tags in a few years(our own little protest) but we still go every year, I myself take my 2 granddaughters out every day and put on many miles into old family haunts and honey holes so when the old guard fades away we have the new, younger ones to carry on our camp. That brings me to the odd/even season scenario which you said may break up traditional long time hunting camps and at this point in time I support 100%. I enjoy hunting to much to break up a family or traditional hunting camp, the way I see it someone in our camp or 2 or 3 out of the 6 or 7 will be hunting every year and I can only speak for our group but 101 years of tradition of hunting the Methow will not stop because half our group can hunt and the other half will be sitting out every other year, just like a couple of us have been doing for 3 years they will be another set of eyes, cooks, story tellers, draggers, packers etc etc. but they will be there and hopefully the tradition will continue for another 101 years and like you said, its not always about killing something its just being part of the camp and tradition.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 26, 2018, 05:27:03 PM
theres still a quota on NR tags and the population to animal ratio can sustain the limited amount of resident harvest. I'm not up on my MT stats but they used to have more deer than people :chuckle:I think we are mostly on the same page my friend and even though I heartily disagree with you about fire suppression your points are all spot on. Even with all of those plans in place I would still want a permit system.
Another thing I don't get is the thought that somehow these established camps that have been hunting for Generations would just stop because only half the guys in Camp had tags. I know that if my old man had a deer tag and I didn't I would still be going because I love the hunt. Many other states successfully run draw only systems. I would love to have over-the-counter hunting everywhere but it's just not reality. We've had over the counter hunting since I've been alive and it's not working. We have to actively start attacking these different aspects of management if we want our grandchildren to hunt mule deer in Washington.
Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't we pretty much the only mule deer state with untlimited tags? Off the top of my head it seems like every other state has some sort of quota, cap, or controlled draw in place.
Montana. They manage for opportunity vs trophy potential in general. You can hunt mule deer in the rut with a rifle every year if you are a resident and just about every year as a non-resident.
Post by: jjhunter on October 26, 2018, 06:01:25 PM
We’ll see how things finish out down the stretch.
Post by: M_ray on October 26, 2018, 06:42:43 PM
I think we are mostly on the same page my friend and even though I heartily disagree with you about fire suppression your points are all spot on. Even with all of those plans in place I would still want a permit system.
Another thing I don't get is the thought that somehow these established camps that have been hunting for Generations would just stop because only half the guys in Camp had tags. I know that if my old man had a deer tag and I didn't I would still be going because I love the hunt. Many other states successfully run draw only systems. I would love to have over-the-counter hunting everywhere but it's just not reality. We've had over the counter hunting since I've been alive and it's not working. We have to actively start attacking these different aspects of management if we want our grandchildren to hunt mule deer in Washington.
Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't we pretty much the only mule deer state with untlimited tags? Off the top of my head it seems like every other state has some sort of quota, cap, or controlled draw in place.
Montana. They manage for opportunity vs trophy potential in general. You can hunt mule deer in the rut with a rifle every year if you are a resident and just about every year as a non-resident.
Yeah but your leaving out that Montana has a quota cap, it’s not open to the whole world. You still have to be drawn for the opportunity. So yeah WA is the only western state with the flood gates wide open.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 26, 2018, 07:44:52 PM
@NOCK NOCK in regards to your question on whether or not I would be as for restricting hunting if I was not successful I'm feeling tags my honest answer is I do not know. I invest far more time into trying to understand mule deer thena lot of folks and all that time investment is probably why I feel so strongly about this. Perhaps if I hadn't made it such an important thing in my life maybe I would feel differently. I just know that if in some hypothetical world were at the snap of a finger I can never hunt again I would still be out there watching mule deer.
Totally agree. I eat sleep and breathe hunting, even got married in my old elk camp....wearing dressy camo. :yike: funny but true.
In fact I will be out tomorrow, watching deer, just for the fun of it.
@bigmacc I think my feelings/beliefs are very very similar to you and others on here, I just want to "start the puzzle" with different pieces than others.
Glad ya'll didn't totally blast me LOL
Post by: bigmacc on October 26, 2018, 07:51:05 PM
@NOCK NOCK in regards to your question on whether or not I would be as for restricting hunting if I was not successful I'm feeling tags my honest answer is I do not know. I invest far more time into trying to understand mule deer thena lot of folks and all that time investment is probably why I feel so strongly about this. Perhaps if I hadn't made it such an important thing in my life maybe I would feel differently. I just know that if in some hypothetical world were at the snap of a finger I can never hunt again I would still be out there watching mule deer.
Totally agree. I eat sleep and breathe hunting, even got married in my old elk camp....wearing dressy camo. :yike: funny but true.
In fact I will be out tomorrow, watching deer, just for the fun of it.
@bigmacc I think my feelings/beliefs are very very similar to you and others on here, I just want to "start the puzzle" with different pieces than others.
Glad ya'll didn't totally blast me LOL
All due respect, All due respect :tup:.........We need to meet up one day.
Post by: heavyhorned on November 06, 2018, 01:06:35 PM
Post by: The Marquis on November 06, 2018, 02:16:55 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on November 06, 2018, 02:26:59 PM
Either guys aren’t sharing their success or it was a bleak year out there.........it’s more quiet than normal around here.Maybe some guys or kids are waiting to fill their late tags. :rolleyes: :chuckle:
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Post by: Seabass on November 06, 2018, 02:28:26 PM
To answer the OP....2018 does seem lean...at least where I hunt WT.
I had a feeling this year could be tough. Most years I find 2, sometimes 3 bucks that to me, are "no-doubter's". If they show, I'm shooting. Normally, there are 4-5 more that are getting close and only need a year or two to make the list.
Last year I had 4 "no-doubter's" on camera....all of which I had hunted or had pics of for multiple years. One of them was WAY past his prime (I expect he's dead), Two were both at least 6.5 years old and the fourth that was making the list for the first year. I found him in 2015 as a 3.5 y/o 6x5 with trashy brow tines. Last year he was a real stud!
On the last day of the season I was fortunate enough to kill one of the 4 (albeit the least interesting of the 4). The bummer about last season was that there were no "next year" bucks in terms of up and comer's. I had no bucks in that 3.5-4.5 y/o class.
Last week I pulled 3 cameras from my best areas and had ZERO bucks that I would even consider pulling back on.