Post by: smithkl42 on January 12, 2019, 07:03:50 PM
I know we're all pretty well agreed on these forums that spraying herbicides is awful for the deer. But what about biosolids? It seems like it should, in general, encourage *all* sorts of plants to grow, both the sort that timber companies are interested in and the sort that deer are. But is that actually how it works out? Any concerns there?
Post by: Alan K on January 12, 2019, 07:20:27 PM
On biosolids, who's land is it? I don't know of anyone that uses them with any regularity, and I'd assume it's almost as much of a favor to the local water treatment plant to get rid of it as it is a benefit to the landowner. I have seen it out in Mason County. Like you, the first time I saw it I thought huh.... Then it dawned on me. :yike: I don't think you have anything to worry about health wise. I don't know what the composition is, I'd think it varies by what went in the intake. :chuckle: In general fertilizer is a booster for all growth. Check it out again this spring when everything breaks bud.
Post by: Bob33 on January 12, 2019, 07:25:02 PM
https://www.epa.gov/biosolids/frequent-questions-about-biosolids (https://www.epa.gov/biosolids/frequent-questions-about-biosolids)
Post by: HntnFsh on January 12, 2019, 07:46:30 PM
I, I guess for one, don't believe herbicides are bad for deer... With green up restrictions they are never more than the next clearcut over from a buffet. The state's richest deer populations are on commercial timberlands which have been treated with herbicides for decades. I know thats not the point of this thread though. Don't want to derail already, but had to say something on that sweeping statement..
You must not frequent Weycos St .Helen's tree farm!
Post by: hunter399 on January 12, 2019, 08:00:00 PM
With that said,
Keep in mind there in the business of growing trees.Not forage,bruss,grass,or anything deer like to eat.
Post by: Alan K on January 12, 2019, 08:50:05 PM
I, I guess for one, don't believe herbicides are bad for deer... With green up restrictions they are never more than the next clearcut over from a buffet. The state's richest deer populations are on commercial timberlands which have been treated with herbicides for decades. I know thats not the point of this thread though. Don't want to derail already, but had to say something on that sweeping statement..
You must not frequent Weycos St .Helen's tree farm!
Frequent, no, but am usually up there a few times a year. Along with Vail, Pe Ell N/S, Ryderwood, Kapowsin, Rayonier on the coast at times, and state lands thoughout SW WA... They all use the same chemicals, or at least the same active ingredients. Clearcuts provide the best feed around. Obviously not immediately after a spray, but the feed is back in a couple years. It is as good a buffet as they could ask for and the landowners trees have had a change to get their root systems established.
The only place thats virtually void of game that I spend time in is USFS ground. Clearcut and herbicide free...
Post by: 100 grain on January 12, 2019, 09:25:46 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on January 12, 2019, 10:57:39 PM
Post by: Romulus1297 on January 13, 2019, 12:37:26 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 13, 2019, 10:45:45 AM
This topic always gets me thinking and I’m never vocal about it. Do you think you spray more than us east siders? Not a chance! We are surrounded by AG land and we do nothing but spray. I worked for a chemical distribution company up until last year and I’v seen how much we spray....don’t blame it on chemicals because that is not valid or we would have the issue here. With that being said, we also spread biosolids on the wheat fields (the final stage of biosolid where I live is not allowable though) and ask around because there is no issues over here. Or atleast confirmed that I’ve heard of. This has been going on for some time now. I’m anxiously waiting on the confirmation on what’s really causing these problems but it’s not chemical unless it’s compounded with chemical being one of a few factors. My :twocents:I think there is a difference in the eastside ag spraying and the westside timber spraying. The ag fields are usually being sprayed to only produce things deer/elk like to eat. The timber lands are sprayed to produce the things they don't like to eat. If (just the hypothetical if) the sprays are a factor, would the spray hurt more if the animals had more food than they could ever hope to eat or if they were somewhat malnourished. A little spray on a bunch of apples and a field of wheat or alfalfa might not affect them as much as getting spray all over them just to get a blackberry stalk or a few alder branches.
Post by: 100 grain on January 13, 2019, 01:07:46 PM
Post by: throwingsticks on January 13, 2019, 04:29:21 PM
Post by: KFhunter on January 13, 2019, 04:31:28 PM
There is not a health risk with biosolids, I wouldn't stress
According to the link Bob33 tossed up, that isn't fully settled.
Post by: hunter399 on January 13, 2019, 06:31:57 PM
Post by: Alan K on January 13, 2019, 07:01:42 PM
Post by: smithkl42 on January 13, 2019, 09:48:42 PM
Obviously you went around a locked gate with signs saying no trespassing and biosolids are being utilized. With doe, health district and owners phone numbers and owners disposal permit numbers on the sign you went past. :bdid:
Nah, this was public land, and if there were "biosolids being sprayed" signs, I didn't see them. On the other hand, I entered the clearcut through a shortcut, and if I'd gone the extra mile or two out of my way to stay on the roads, they might have been there.
Post by: smithkl42 on January 13, 2019, 10:10:26 PM
https://bioone.org/journals/rangeland-ecology-and-management/volume-64/issue-2/REM-D-09-00125.1/Wildlife-Responses-to-Long-Term-Application-of-Biosolids-to-Grasslands/10.2111/REM-D-09-00125.1.short
Of course, that's grasslands rather than reprod, and white-tailed deer rather than blacktail. But worth noting.
Post by: Angry Perch on January 14, 2019, 10:22:26 AM
Obviously you went around a locked gate with signs saying no trespassing and biosolids are being utilized. With doe, health district and owners phone numbers and owners disposal permit numbers on the sign you went past. :bdid:
Nope. LOOP sprays up in Campbell Snoqualmie all the time. The areas are posted, but access is not restricted. The only warning is not to forage for mushrooms or edible plants for a year (I think it's a year). It has that familiar manure smell, but knowing it's human manure makes it seem nastier. Those areas definitely green up fast.
Post by: BeWitty on January 14, 2019, 11:05:01 AM
There are two common types of biosolids, Class A and Class B. Very different treatment and usability.
Post by: Katmai Guy on January 14, 2019, 12:06:10 PM
Obviously you went around a locked gate with signs saying no trespassing and biosolids are being utilized. With doe, health district and owners phone numbers and owners disposal permit numbers on the sign you went past. :bdid:
Nope. LOOP sprays up in Campbell Snoqualmie all the time. The areas are posted, but access is not restricted. The only warning is not to forage for mushrooms or edible plants for a year (I think it's a year). It has that familiar manure smell, but knowing it's human manure makes it seem nastier. Those areas definitely green up fast.
Two Years!
Post by: Angry Perch on January 14, 2019, 12:21:15 PM
Obviously you went around a locked gate with signs saying no trespassing and biosolids are being utilized. With doe, health district and owners phone numbers and owners disposal permit numbers on the sign you went past. :bdid:
Nope. LOOP sprays up in Campbell Snoqualmie all the time. The areas are posted, but access is not restricted. The only warning is not to forage for mushrooms or edible plants for a year (I think it's a year). It has that familiar manure smell, but knowing it's human manure makes it seem nastier. Those areas definitely green up fast.
Two Years!
Yet they use it on crops, which I don't get.
Post by: throwingsticks on January 14, 2019, 01:09:46 PM
from Q9 of the EPA link,There is not a health risk with biosolids, I wouldn't stress
According to the link Bob33 tossed up, that isn't fully settled.
As reported in the 2002 National Research Council of the National Academies report, Biosolids Applied to Land: Advancing Standards and Practices, the Council concluded that, “There is no documented scientific evidence that the Part 503 rule has failed to protect public health. However, additional scientific work is needed to reduce persistent uncertainty about the potential for adverse human health effects from exposure to biosolids.”
driving to your hunting location and walking around in the woods are thousands of times more dangerous. With that said, you might have an issue if you try eating pounds of biosolids, mostly low IQ, but that would be a pre-existing condition....
Post by: Romulus1297 on January 15, 2019, 01:12:47 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 15, 2019, 07:52:47 AM
Biosolids have gone through the treatment plant and have been digested. Most Biosolids leaving a west side treatment plant are hauled over the mountains and applied on a BUF (beneficial use facility). A lot of times these facilities are wheat fields. It’s perfect fertilizer as it’s rich in nitrogen and phosphorus and you don’t need to water because it’s usually about 80% water already. Many of these land app sites are in Douglas and Mason county and regulated by the EPA. If you want really green grass and plants that grow very fast, use biosolids!Do drugs (prescription and illegal) get digested or filtered?
There are two common types of biosolids, Class A and Class B. Very different treatment and usability.
Post by: fishnfur on January 15, 2019, 05:15:21 PM
Post by: BeWitty on January 15, 2019, 05:22:15 PM
So to answer your question, drugs aren’t specifically treated or filtered but I’m not sure how detectable it’s be leaving the plant.
Post by: BeWitty on January 15, 2019, 05:28:38 PM
... and what about viruses?
The digestion process and the methane and acid fermenters should take care of the viruses if they haven’t already been treated.....I believe.
Post by: howlow on January 22, 2019, 04:40:38 PM
Post by: KFhunter on January 22, 2019, 07:50:28 PM
Post by: KFhunter on January 22, 2019, 07:51:13 PM
keep in mind this is coming from a biosolids company..
The science is far from definitive, and, while there is some evidence of possible transmissivity or replication of various neurological diseases, including Alzheimer’s, it is currently considered to be a rare possibility. The Nature article notes that scientists studying these various twisted proteins “warn that it is too early to draw conclusions about the clinical significance of discovering different strains of Alzheimer’s plaques. Some are wary of linking neurodegenerative and prion diseases, especially when prion biology is still so poorly understood. And considering prion and non-prion diseases together ‘could give the misleading impression that you could catch Alzheimer’s from visiting your grandmother’, says Virginia Lee, who works on neurodegenerative diseases at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. ‘There is absolutely no evidence that’s possible, and it would be a dangerous thing to imply.’”
Finally, when confronted with claims of human health impacts from biosolids, it is important to consider the simple epidemiological concept of fate and exposure. People only get sick from something if exposed to a toxic or infective dose. It is implausible that biosolids-borne prions, many of which are inactivated in anaerobic digestion (see Miles et al., 2011, available from the NEBRA office), that are applied to soils where microbes break them down over time, contribute to the millions of cases of prion diseases or Alzheimer’s and other neurological diseases.
The fact is, very very few people are exposed to biosolids.
Post by: Angry Perch on January 23, 2019, 03:57:41 PM
https://www.nebiosolids.org/prions-tses-alzheimers-and-biosolids/
keep in mind this is coming from a biosolids company..
The science is far from definitive, and, while there is some evidence of possible transmissivity or replication of various neurological diseases, including Alzheimer’s, it is currently considered to be a rare possibility. The Nature article notes that scientists studying these various twisted proteins “warn that it is too early to draw conclusions about the clinical significance of discovering different strains of Alzheimer’s plaques. Some are wary of linking neurodegenerative and prion diseases, especially when prion biology is still so poorly understood. And considering prion and non-prion diseases together ‘could give the misleading impression that you could catch Alzheimer’s from visiting your grandmother’, says Virginia Lee, who works on neurodegenerative diseases at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. ‘There is absolutely no evidence that’s possible, and it would be a dangerous thing to imply.’”
Finally, when confronted with claims of human health impacts from biosolids, it is important to consider the simple epidemiological concept of fate and exposure. People only get sick from something if exposed to a toxic or infective dose. It is implausible that biosolids-borne prions, many of which are inactivated in anaerobic digestion (see Miles et al., 2011, available from the NEBRA office), that are applied to soils where microbes break them down over time, contribute to the millions of cases of prion diseases or Alzheimer’s and other neurological diseases.
The fact is, very very few people are exposed to biosolids.
Right, and the entire article is saying that the thought that prions survive the process and are a health risk is BS.
Post by: KFhunter on January 23, 2019, 04:12:37 PM
So I posted an article from a biosolids corporation, I can't imagine anyone being more pro-biosolids than a corporation that sells the stuff to big ag.
Post by: Stein on January 23, 2019, 05:29:46 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on January 23, 2019, 05:40:17 PM