Post by: wooltie on January 17, 2019, 03:03:44 PM
I am going to test a different bullet/powder soon to see if it has potential to group well, and seeing how I'm new to reloading I am wondering what others do to vet potential loads.
I've tried two different powders (4064/4035), at various charge weights and seating depths in an effort to get 165g or 180g accubonds to group in my 30-06. 165g performed better than the 180g. At most I could get 3/5 shots to shoot MOA at 100 yards from the bench. Alternatively, factory ammo 150g interlocks group .5-.75 MOA @ 100 yards all day long.
Post by: jasnt on January 17, 2019, 04:11:46 PM
Post by: hunter399 on January 17, 2019, 04:37:14 PM
If really got to have accubonds did you try seating them same as your factory ammo some rifles like a jump to the lands.
But this is what I would do,Im sure many on here tell you I'm wrong or different.
Post by: wooltie on January 17, 2019, 05:33:06 PM
What is your current process of load development? If the gun and shooter are capable of .5-.75 you should have no troubles getting sub moa from a bullet the gun likes even with a poor charge. Normally if I have to work hard to get moa I’ll try a different bullet. If you like nosler I’d try the bt’s they seem to be easy to load for. But maybe the issue is in your load development.
So in your experience if a gun likes a particular bullet then it should be fairly evident e.g. MOA?
I wanted to use ABs, but I am not set on them. I would load up 4-5 rounds per charge weight. Each charge weight would be .3 g apart. I would shoot 5-6 charge weights, typically 2.0 g under book max to book max. Watching for pressure signs and using a chrono to measure velocity on a round for each charge weight...I know I'm okay shooting 2g under max to max with 4064/4035 having fired enough rounds. I would evaluate the each group of charge weight and also POI (OCW style.)
Results with ABs were that 2-3 would be MOA, then 1-2 rounds would be 2-4" up/down/right/left of the group -- no discernible pattern. I used the same reloading method / powder / primer / case to load 165g SGK and would see 3-4 charge weights basically group MOA with similar POI.
I also loaded up some AB for my other 30-06 and observed similar results as I saw shooting the 165g SGK in my model 70.
For fun, I last loaded up 150g AB and 150g partitions -- loaded during the same session using same brass / powder / primer / charge weight, then shot them. The 150g partitions grouped MOA, way less left to right (mostly vertical spread). The ABs did group better (for ABs), but still had those 2 rounds that stray 2-3" from the group.
I think my reloading process is "okay" for just wanting a consistent MOA load out to 3-350 yards, but I think I've been chasing a bullet that my rifle just doesn't like. And I have benchmark barrel installed, and soon a manners will be added to the setup.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 17, 2019, 05:43:01 PM
For the 30-06 and 165-180 bullets I would look at imr4350 as a starting point.
Post by: jasnt on January 18, 2019, 03:52:17 AM
Post by: wooltie on January 18, 2019, 06:29:13 AM
I’ve read those ab’s can be finicky. Try that seating depth test mentioned above before you give up but to me it sounds like the rifle dosent like em.
I did at one point last year after I was not seeing the ABs group. I read that ABs can like a lot of jump, so I thought jump might be the culprit. But the seating test did not provide any groups. I just basically concluded that the rifle doesn't like ABs because I've seen other bullets and loads group well (using same loading process, me, shooting from bench, etc.)
But I'll note what you said about a given bullet tending to group well regardless of charge if the gun likes it. That's kinda the starting point I'm looking for. I use proven powders (imr 4064/4350, H4350), full length resize brass, clean primer pockets, tumble brass, measure, trim, chamfer and deburr cases, seat off the ogive. I think the only thing I don't do is mess with neck tension or adjusting the case shoulder.
It is kind of like pick which assumption you'll use as a starting point.
Post by: theleo on January 18, 2019, 07:41:35 AM
Is all your brass the same brand? If not you can be fighting an uphill battle.
I did at one point last year after I was not seeing the ABs group. I read that ABs can like a lot of jump, so I thought jump might be the culprit. But the seating test did not provide any groups. I just basically concluded that the rifle doesn't like ABs because I've seen other bullets and loads group well (using same loading process, me, shooting from bench, etc.)
But I'll note what you said about a given bullet tending to group well regardless of charge if the gun likes it. That's kinda the starting point I'm looking for. I use proven powders (imr 4064/4350, H4350), full length resize brass, clean primer pockets, tumble brass, measure, trim, chamfer and deburr cases, seat off the ogive. I think the only thing I don't do is mess with neck tension or adjusting the case shoulder.
It is kind of like pick which assumption you'll use as a starting point.
If you're looking for AB type performance you could try Interbbonds and Sciroccos as well.
Post by: wooltie on January 18, 2019, 07:59:47 AM
Is all your brass the same brand? If not you can be fighting an uphill battle.
I did at one point last year after I was not seeing the ABs group. I read that ABs can like a lot of jump, so I thought jump might be the culprit. But the seating test did not provide any groups. I just basically concluded that the rifle doesn't like ABs because I've seen other bullets and loads group well (using same loading process, me, shooting from bench, etc.)
But I'll note what you said about a given bullet tending to group well regardless of charge if the gun likes it. That's kinda the starting point I'm looking for. I use proven powders (imr 4064/4350, H4350), full length resize brass, clean primer pockets, tumble brass, measure, trim, chamfer and deburr cases, seat off the ogive. I think the only thing I don't do is mess with neck tension or adjusting the case shoulder.
It is kind of like pick which assumption you'll use as a starting point.
If you're looking for AB type performance you could try Interbbonds and Sciroccos as well.
Yes, I use winny brass and CCI primers. Wanted to use the ABs because I am looking for a bullet that would gimme a pass through on bears out to 300 yards if I had to shoot that far. Going to try 165g partitions next. Hadn't thought about interbonds, however.
Thought about using barnes, but they are expensive to practice with and I'd rather not mix barnes and non-barnes for practice in the barrel.
Post by: jasnt on January 18, 2019, 08:10:48 AM
Which ever shot best I’ll use that seating depth for my load work. I shoot a ladder over my chrono ( I use magneto speed, must have an accurate chrono for this!) target dosent matter. Look for my upper flat spot near max. Then I’ll load up 5 shot groups and fine tune my seating depth in .005” increments.
If you don’t have a magneto speed or labradar then you could do 3 shot ladder test at 300 yards.
This is my method that’s worked well for me. Yrmv
Have you looked at hammer bullets?
Post by: wooltie on January 18, 2019, 08:25:05 AM
When I’m starting load development I’ll start with a low charge. Load up some 3 shot groups starting at .015” off the landes or mag length which ever is shorter and seat each group deeper by .030”.
Which ever shot best I’ll use that seating depth for my load work. I shoot a ladder over my chrono ( I use magneto speed, must have an accurate chrono for this!) target dosent matter. Look for my upper flat spot near max. Then I’ll load up 5 shot groups and fine tune my seating depth in .005” increments.
If you don’t have a magneto speed or labradar then you could do 3 shot ladder test at 300 yards.
This is my method that’s worked well for me. Yrmv
Have you looked at hammer bullets?
I was going to use this approach on my next load dev. Assuming a bullet will group if the gun likes it, figuring out seating depth first makes sense. I do have a magneto speed and can shoot ladders out to 200 yards.
Post by: jasnt on January 18, 2019, 08:35:29 AM
Example
1. 2712
2. 2765
3. 2798
4. 2831
5. 2871
6. 2934
7. 2975
8. 3015
9. 3020
10. 3051
#8 and 9 have a 5fps spread. That’s a node you’d want to test
Post by: wooltie on January 18, 2019, 08:41:32 AM
I realized that you gotta get the load to group first then use the chrono to find a flat spot.
In my mind it makes sense to dial in seating depth first and minimize the right/left, then focus on charge to minimize the vertical. I like addressing one aspect at a time.
Post by: Angry Perch on January 18, 2019, 10:16:27 AM
Wondering if anyone would share their process for evaluating whether a new load, or specifically a particular bullet has the potential to group well.
I am going to test a different bullet/powder soon to see if it has potential to group well, and seeing how I'm new to reloading I am wondering what others do to vet potential loads.
I've tried two different powders (4064/4035), at various charge weights and seating depths in an effort to get 165g or 180g accubonds to group in my 30-06. 165g performed better than the 180g. At most I could get 3/5 shots to shoot MOA at 100 yards from the bench. Alternatively, factory ammo 150g interlocks group .5-.75 MOA @ 100 yards all day long.
You should just sell your reloading stuff and buy a few boxes of factory ammo! :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 18, 2019, 10:33:16 AM
20 thou off the lands in .2gr increments up to pressure over a chronograph. Find the velocity node. Go to the middle of it, then tune seating depth. Once your happy you can go back and tweak powder to pinch some more velocity out of it if you so choose.
AB like to jump a bit in my experience. After velocity node is established try 40, 60, and 80 thou off lands. Betting 60 is your sweet spot :chuckle:
Post by: HawkCreek on January 18, 2019, 10:40:16 AM
Post by: CaNINE on January 18, 2019, 10:41:18 AM
AB like to jump a bit in my experience. After velocity node is established try 40, 60, and 80 thou off lands. Betting 60 is your sweet spot :chuckle:
All my accubond loads like this range of jump
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 18, 2019, 10:46:43 AM
200gr in my wsm are 80 thou (h4831sc)
180 and 150 in my 30-06 are both 60 thou (imr4350)
140gr in the wife's. 270 60 thou (imr4350)
Those are the ones I can for sure remember off the top of my head. 160's in the .280ai i still need to measure. I stuffed them in to mag length and shot to pressure. It was a 7 shot moa group so hit the middle of the node and shot a 5 shot group under. 5 so said screw it she's done! Never even felt the need to touch seating depth :chuckle:
Post by: jasnt on January 18, 2019, 11:31:32 AM
I do not subscribe to the "my gun doesnt like them" theory. I've never not been able to make a bullet shoot in a gun. The load isnt always optimal and may be a PITA to find but there is always a charge/seating depth combo that will work. I've done load development on easily 100+ rifles and have never been proven wrong.you got more Patients than I do. If I haven’t found a good load in 50 rds I try a different bullet. My old 300wm I tried hard to get sgk’s to shoot. Went through 2 100ct boxes trying to get moa. Switched to the Berger and never seen more than .7 with every load shot. I like the easy ones. First 243 I could not get 75gr vmax to shoot after 3 boxes shot and several powders tried but the 58gr,65gr, and 87 vmax’s shot great. :dunno: I was still wet behind the ears in those days too
20 thou off the lands in .2gr increments up to pressure over a chronograph. Find the velocity node. Go to the middle of it, then tune seating depth. Once your happy you can go back and tweak powder to pinch some more velocity out of it if you so choose.
AB like to jump a bit in my experience. After velocity node is established try 40, 60, and 80 thou off lands. Betting 60 is your sweet spot :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 18, 2019, 11:49:12 AM
Post by: wooltie on January 20, 2019, 09:49:19 AM
In contrast to SGK, for example, I'd see MOA groups (100 yars) at .020" jump across 4-5 charge weights, each charge .3g apart...basically those 4-5 charges all impacted at the same 1" group on the target.
That performance compared to the AB makes me think that the ABs just don't shoot well, or like you said might require more tweaking to make em work.
Not sure if the SGK would be strong enough to pass through bears at 2-300 yards, given an ideal broadside shot.
Thanks for all the input.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 20, 2019, 11:18:16 AM
Post by: jasnt on January 20, 2019, 04:58:41 PM
A Sierra game king will kill whatever you point it at at 200-300 Yards. :twocents: if that shoots well I would send em.:yeah: