Post by: 92xj on January 20, 2019, 12:10:58 PM
Is it the first sign of flattened primer?
Is it when your finished comes apart and you see your armbflyimg through the air?
Thoughts on pressure signs before reaching the manufacturers max powder charge?
300wm, Bertam, H1000 75gr, 199sledge hammer, .024 off lands, crunching powder when seating, 3015fps, sd5, es10. .75 group.
Going to repeat this load and hopefully repeat the grouping and if so, I'll call that load a win for my hunting rifle and be very satisfied.
The other part of me wants to keep going up to the 79gr max but crunching at 75 and also the primer flattening a frog nut hair has me holding up on that thought.
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 20, 2019, 12:18:27 PM
@BULLBLASTER
Post by: 92xj on January 20, 2019, 12:25:48 PM
Idk much about those bullets bearing surface etc. but 75 sounds light for h1000..
@BULLBLASTER
It is according to all publishings.
The bullet is the opposite of really pointy ultralong range bullets making the oal shorter because of lands contact instead of the point being able to bypass the lands in longer range style bullets. If that makes any sense.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 20, 2019, 12:31:05 PM
Or possibly look at having the chamber freebore lengthened if you have magazine space.
There may be a powder that will surpass velocity and not be so compressed.
Also I’m not sure what you are using for load data but typically mono metal bullets hit pressure at a lower charge than lead core. Does hammer have data?
FWIW I am shooting 215 Berger’s loaded long (3.75 oal) and am at 78 grains h1000 and still can shake the case and bear powder.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 20, 2019, 12:35:01 PM
Post by: 92xj on January 20, 2019, 12:45:40 PM
Here is a picture. I only have .024 more to extend the hammer before hitting the lands. Mag box length is no issue.
Browning hells canyon speed.
though if I can repeat my 75gr groups, I am very satisfied with that load for my hunting needs 600 yards and less is my range.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7831/45902989825_88b36e0136_b.jpg)
Post by: b23 on January 20, 2019, 12:54:09 PM
Are you noticing any kind of a ejector swipe? After you fire a round are do you listen to see if you can hear any clicking as you lift the bolt handle up? Do you notice an increase in bolt lift after a fired round? All can be indicators you're starting to get into the red.
Post by: jasnt on January 20, 2019, 12:54:47 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on January 20, 2019, 12:56:43 PM
Post by: 92xj on January 20, 2019, 12:57:35 PM
That actually sounds pretty fast for only 75gr of powder so you could be creating more pressure than you think.
Are you noticing any kind of a ejector swipe? After you fire a round are do you listen to see if you can hear any clicking as you lift the bolt handle up? Do you notice an increase in bolt lift after a fired round? All can be indicators you're starting to get into the red.
I thought it sounded fast as well. I'm using a magneto to measure so feels it's accurate. No I crease in bolt lift, no clicking and no ejector marks that I can see.
Post by: b23 on January 20, 2019, 01:05:07 PM
If you aren't experiencing any pressure signs and you're happy with how it's shooting, you can call it good and be done. Or, if that is the bullet you want to shoot, you can take your gun to a gunsmith and they can increase the freebore so you can stretch those bullets further out of the case before you touch the lands.
Post by: 92xj on January 20, 2019, 01:07:34 PM
The biggest thing to me is crunching powder when seating the bullet creating a compressed load but with almost now more room to seat the bullet less, I don't really have another option beside different powder. And if I go that route, I have no idea what powder to try. MY experience is only with h1000 and rl25.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7824/46093141014_a7ccbf2d94_b.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7899/31876767357_1fb96cd39b_b.jpg)
Post by: b23 on January 20, 2019, 01:13:42 PM
Any bolt lift resistance or brass head marks/swipes or significantly flattened primer. I use Quickload to give me an idea where Im at keeps me from going crazy ( - lapua brass won’t show signs until you get way up there.)
I think QL is a very useful tool and use it a lot. Majority of my experience with QL has been if I input all the correct parameters, it'll nearly always match my real world experience.
Lapua brass will still show the regular signs of pressure, ejector swipe, clickers, increased bolt lift, but if you start stretching primer pockets with Lapua brass, you are definitely correct, and you're way over pressure.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 20, 2019, 01:18:20 PM
Those bullets have lots of bearing surface length (not all of it actually bearing surface with the ridges) with a short nose section so will eat into powder space.
I’ll agree that that is a pretty high speed and I wouldn’t expect a whole lot more than that. Just looking at the primer picture I’d say you are on the edge pressure wise. :twocents:
A 200 grain bullet at 3000 is no slouch! :chuckle:
Post by: b23 on January 20, 2019, 01:26:59 PM
to me the primer has started to slightly flatten compared to a non fired primer. Not sure enough to matter to me though.
The biggest thing to me is crunching powder when seating the bullet creating a compressed load but with almost now more room to seat the bullet less, I don't really have another option beside different powder. And if I go that route, I have no idea what powder to try. MY experience is only with h1000 and rl25.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7824/46093141014_a7ccbf2d94_b.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7899/31876767357_1fb96cd39b_b.jpg)
Those appear to be getting flattened a bit but I'm not all that convinced flattened primers are a great indicator of pressure because other things can cause primers to flatten.
For me, RL25 would NOT be an option so I'd definitely stick with the H1000.
Have you measured the case capacity with water of one of your cases yet? Bertram brass is known for having reduced case capacity, versus others.
And not trying to be a smarta$$ but if you are concerned about being over pressure with your load and the crunching, maybe you're overlooking the obvious and you should reduce it a little. I'm not a big fan of a lot of crunching so I'd either try using a drop tube to see if that helps or reduce the load a little.
Post by: 92xj on January 20, 2019, 01:35:27 PM
My plan is to do 74.6, 74.8 and 75 going to .15 off the lands and seeing if I keep the accuracy and fps.
And I agree @bullblaster 200 grs at over 3000 fps should kill whatever I can hit, hopefully a bear is first on the list.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 20, 2019, 02:44:58 PM
Post by: buckfvr on January 20, 2019, 03:05:23 PM
Post by: 92xj on January 20, 2019, 03:18:54 PM
Post by: b23 on January 20, 2019, 04:10:23 PM
When you're loading that close to touching with a load that is already on the warmish side you really should measure every loaded round off of the ogive with a bullet comparator because if one slips by you and goes from being a few thou off to touching, you can get a pretty healthy pressure spike.
Are you using a drop tube? If not, you'd be surprised how much a drop tube can change how full the case looks and could help some of the crunching.
Post by: 92xj on January 20, 2019, 04:18:44 PM
I'm not worried about me missing one in my process.
I'm stupidly over anal. I measure ever charge and also measure length on every final round.
Will order a drop tube and load some up and see what happens
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 20, 2019, 04:25:21 PM
Post by: b23 on January 20, 2019, 04:34:30 PM
I have this one https://www.midwayusa.com/product/293879/forster-blue-ribbon-powder-funnel-with-long-drop-tube as well as one that is longer I bought from Defensive Edge Rifles.
Post by: 92xj on January 20, 2019, 04:50:25 PM
Post by: yorketransport on January 21, 2019, 05:34:35 AM
For load data Hammer recommends using Noslers published loads for similar weight bullets. In my experience that’s been pretty accurate. The bearing surface on the Hammers is actually pretty short since very little of the shank is actually making contact with the rifling. I typically get about 75 fps higher velocities with the same weight Hammer bullet compared to a comparable weight Accubond. Let the velocity tell you when you’ve hit your max pressure, and I’d say your pretty much there now.
I’d just consider the load you have as a max and leave as is if it’s shooting well. Don’t worry about messing around with your seating depth. It likely won’t make enough of a difference to be worth burning up the bullets.
Post by: 92xj on January 21, 2019, 07:19:18 AM
A question for you way more experienced guys... Please explain letting the velocity tell me what max pressure is.
Post by: NWShooter on January 21, 2019, 03:25:01 PM
Post by: Reidus on January 21, 2019, 04:17:49 PM
Don’t worry about the powder compression, it just a reality when dealing with heavy bullets in a 300 Win Mag.
For load data Hammer recommends using Noslers published loads for similar weight bullets. In my experience that’s been pretty accurate. The bearing surface on the Hammers is actually pretty short since very little of the shank is actually making contact with the rifling. I typically get about 75 fps higher velocities with the same weight Hammer bullet compared to a comparable weight Accubond. Let the velocity tell you when you’ve hit your max pressure, and I’d say your pretty much there now.
I’d just consider the load you have as a max and leave as is if it’s shooting well. Don’t worry about messing around with your seating depth. It likely won’t make enough of a difference to be worth burning up the bullets.
I was thinking the same thing. Even though "bearing surface" is long it will build pressure like a bullet with a short bearing surface.
Post by: yorketransport on January 21, 2019, 09:08:21 PM
Thanks Yorke, you are the one who convinced me to try the hammers. I blame you in everything that happens from now on!
I accept this. :chuckle:
For the velocity, look at the published velocities given by the powder and bullet companies. These are operations with the tools and knowledge to accurately measure chamber pressures. If Hodgdon and Nosler both say they got 2875-2900 fps with a max charge of H1000, it’s safe to believe that a 200gr bullet at max pressure should be around 2900 fps. You can absolutely get higher velocities but it will be at higher pressure. Bullet designs can change pressures a bit, but not usually a huge difference
Post by: 92xj on March 16, 2019, 03:28:02 PM
One more round of pictures.
Is there any harm in shooting this load as my go to load.
The two rows in the center both produced the best grouping at .6" and averaged 3015fps with the 199gr sledge hammer.
The bolt opened with zero resistance and I don't see any other signs of pressure besides the flattened primer.
Am I going to die or should I try something else?
This is going to be my spring bear load and I am limiting myself to 600 yards max for shots this spring.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4836/33521900518_3fb5acb5a0_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4833/46674578264_1b4784257f_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4856/33521900568_da32d52bc6_b.jpg)
Post by: bobcat on March 16, 2019, 03:32:54 PM
Post by: 92xj on March 16, 2019, 03:34:49 PM
Bolt opens great, new trigger is tits and the gun feels great.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 16, 2019, 03:48:51 PM
Post by: 92xj on March 16, 2019, 03:51:20 PM
Was that new brass on this firing?
Yeah
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 16, 2019, 03:57:44 PM
Was that new brass on this firing?
Yeah
I don’t think you are doing anything that is over the top dangerous or anything but you may see more pressure signs on future firings at that same load. I experienced it with my nosler brass in 300. Virgin brass would shoot 80 ishFPS faster without pressure signs than once or twice fired.
I also don’t know what is the expected velocity with this bullets either tho.
If it’s working for the time being and you have brought to get you through your bear hunts I’d go ahead and use it.
Post by: 92xj on March 16, 2019, 04:05:47 PM
I have about 70 more virgin cases and 30 more 199gr sledge hammers.
I plan to load the 30 more, which should get me through 20 rounds of testing and 10 rounds to have during bear season.
Once Bear season is over, I am thinking about playing with the 199 or 214 hammer hunters for 1k yard shots and find a load with them for montana deer.
it's never ending...
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 16, 2019, 04:26:38 PM
Post by: rudysts on March 17, 2019, 05:21:14 AM
heavier usually means thicker brass which decreases volume. less volume can equal more pressure with less powder especially if seated deep in the case.
Post by: TheArmoredShop on March 23, 2019, 02:51:01 PM
At what point during your inspection do you say, yep, that's too much pressure not load any more powder?
Is it the first sign of flattened primer?
Is it when your finished comes apart and you see your armbflyimg through the air?
Thoughts on pressure signs before reaching the manufacturers max powder charge?
300wm, Bertam, H1000 75gr, 199sledge hammer, .024 off lands, crunching powder when seating, 3015fps, sd5, es10. .75 group.
Going to repeat this load and hopefully repeat the grouping and if so, I'll call that load a win for my hunting rifle and be very satisfied.
The other part of me wants to keep going up to the 79gr max but crunching at 75 and also the primer flattening a frog nut hair has me holding up on that thought.
When your primers start pushing out of the case after being fired. Great indication you’re running hot
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: 92xj on March 23, 2019, 04:14:13 PM
I still have normal resistance when extracting these primers.
The gun has shot 20 of these rounds and still no hard bolt lift at all, gun hasn't come apart and still shooting great groups. I still plan to run this load for spring bear unless someone that is known to be trustworthy on here tells me at any point the gun will come apart or I will die.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 23, 2019, 04:24:06 PM
How exactly is a primer flattened? Pushed out to the bolt face? Just expanded in the primer pocket?The only way to know if the primer pockets are loosening from overpressure is either they blow out when you shoot or the case just not hold a new primer. If there a bit loose going in next time maybe drop it a bit but that would just affect brass life. :twocents:
I still have normal resistance when extracting these primers.
The gun has shot 20 of these rounds and still no hard bolt lift at all, gun hasn't come apart and still shooting great groups. I still plan to run this load for spring bear unless someone that is known to be trustworthy on here tells me at any point the gun will come apart or I will die.
Post by: 92xj on March 23, 2019, 04:28:35 PM
How exactly is a primer flattened? Pushed out to the bolt face? Just expanded in the primer pocket?The only way to know if the primer pockets are loosening from overpressure is either they blow out when you shoot or the case just not hold a new primer. If there a bit loose going in next time maybe drop it a bit but that would just affect brass life. :twocents:
I still have normal resistance when extracting these primers.
The gun has shot 20 of these rounds and still no hard bolt lift at all, gun hasn't come apart and still shooting great groups. I still plan to run this load for spring bear unless someone that is known to be trustworthy on here tells me at any point the gun will come apart or I will die.
Roger that.
I'll install a new primer in the tumbled brass and see what she feels like
Post by: jasnt on March 23, 2019, 05:00:49 PM
This peace of brass was killed by seeing how fast I could push the 105 gr vld and at 3380fps the primer fell out on ejection but you can clearly see the black around the primer pocket. If you see any carbon around the primer while still in the brass it’s a kull in my book and time to lower the charge
Post by: yorketransport on March 24, 2019, 05:45:55 PM
The times I’ve blown a primer pocket out it often leaks the shot before. Now if I see primer blow by I just toss it.
This peace of brass was killed by seeing how fast I could push the 105 gr vld and at 3380fps the primer fell out on ejection but you can clearly see the black around the primer pocket. If you see any carbon around the primer while still in the brass it’s a kull in my book and time to lower the charge
Just squeeze a little super glue in there with the next primer and you're good to go. :chuckle:
Post by: 92xj on March 26, 2019, 07:28:18 PM
Sledge hammers measurements
With comparator 2.9215
Without 3.420
Hammer hunters
With comparator 2.936
Without 3.619
Post by: yorketransport on March 26, 2019, 08:26:41 PM
Post by: 92xj on April 01, 2019, 07:21:10 AM
So, I ran by the store and am going to switch up everything and experiment, hoping to find something great by the time spring bear gets here, which aint that far out.
I bought the only brass they had, Nosler, picked up with 215m primers and h4831sc. Based on my googleing I think I am going to start at 68grs and hopefully make it to 71.5grs and get over 2900fps.
I also plan to try my loads that started this thread in the nosler brass with the 215m primers and see if I get the same primer flattening that I did in the Bertram brass.
Post by: yorketransport on April 01, 2019, 08:39:54 PM
Don't worry about the primers, there are lots of other signs to watch for. If it's shooting well and you're not beating the bolt open with a mallet after every shot, you'll be fine. Hodgdon lists a max charge of 76.0gr H1000 for a 230 OTM at 3.400" and the Hammer Hunter is roughly the same length. Nosler lists a max charge of 75.5gr H1000 for their 220gr Custom Comp bullet at 3.400" and that thing has a bearing surface a mile long!
My favorite load in my last 300 Win Mag was a 200gr Accubond over so much Retumbo that I had to have a second person help me pull the handle down when seating the bullet. :chuckle: Pressures were low, velocities were good and accuracy was great. If it shoots well and you're getting 3+ loadings per case, you're good to go. :tup:
Post by: 92xj on April 01, 2019, 08:51:22 PM
I have a problem with tinkering and trying to get the best thing ever, which is a battle I'll never win, yet I won't accept it :bash:
I will load them up, shoot them and take them bear hunting.
And then after bear season, I'll tinker until the week before my Montana deer hunt in November
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 02, 2019, 08:22:47 AM
I know and you're right!:chuckle:
I have a problem with tinkering and trying to get the best thing ever, which is a battle I'll never win, yet I won't accept it :bash:
I will load them up, shoot them and take them bear hunting.
And then after bear season, I'll tinker until the week before my Montana deer hunt in November
Post by: 92xj on April 02, 2019, 08:31:29 AM
One day....
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 02, 2019, 08:38:21 AM
You'd think after years and years of doing this crap, that I'd figure it out before the week before a hunt, when I'm scrambling out to the desert to throw some final lead, to then scramble home to load 10 or so rounds to jump in the truck and go hunt .I’m the opposite. I like to get a good load made up and then board components in the hopes of not having to re do a new load. I hate shooting groups!
One day....
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 02, 2019, 08:56:24 AM
Post by: 92xj on April 02, 2019, 09:00:01 AM
You're not getting in my head
You're not getting in my head
:chuckle:
Post by: jasnt on April 02, 2019, 10:21:28 AM
Post by: 92xj on April 08, 2019, 07:41:34 AM
With the nolser brass,the 4831sc, and 199 hammer hunter, I was getting 2860 fps but had zero stability as the bullets were tumbling when they reached the paper.
The Bertram brass with h1000 pushing them at 3015 fps, stabilized them and I had perfect pencil holes in paper.
I have noticed comparing the Bertram brass and nosler brass, in the bertram the bullet is A LOT tighter/tougher to seat than in the nosler brass. Both sized and seated using the same dies.
Another note. Hammer Bullets just released a brand new .308 designed for a 1-10 twist at 196grs. Got those ordered today and will hopefully work a load this weekend.
This bear hunt is coming up quick!
I have settled on a load for the 199gr Sledge Hammers, that I will load and hunt with if I don't get a good group with these new hunters on order.
Post by: BNAElkhntr on April 08, 2019, 08:19:18 AM
Post by: Bill W on April 08, 2019, 08:45:21 AM
Post by: jasnt on April 08, 2019, 10:29:47 AM