Post by: Ldav on March 12, 2019, 08:59:39 PM
One breeder I'm looking at is asking around $1800.
I'm considering getting a pup this spring and just wanted to see if I'm nuts to consider spending that much on a puppy or not. Seems like a lot of the breeders I've looked at are round that price though..
Just wanted to get anyones thoughts. Thanks!
Post by: lokidog on March 12, 2019, 09:18:30 PM
Of course, labs are a dime a dozen so they shouldn't be that expensive.... chuckle: I haven't priced them so don't know.
Post by: full choke on March 12, 2019, 09:20:26 PM
Most dog people will tell you that the initial price is the cheap part...
Post by: bornhunter on March 12, 2019, 09:24:28 PM
Post by: Gamblin Guy on March 12, 2019, 09:30:50 PM
Purchase price of a pup from a proven breeder with known lines who pays to have all the health clearances done with each generation is the cheapest part of dog ownership....
Post by: lokidog on March 12, 2019, 09:39:07 PM
And more and more genetic and other testing is expected as well as increased levels of performance of the parents.
Post by: Taco280AI on March 12, 2019, 09:58:25 PM
Post by: Naches Sportsman on March 12, 2019, 10:04:50 PM
Post by: Iveexcaped3 on March 12, 2019, 10:17:26 PM
Post by: Taco280AI on March 12, 2019, 10:22:34 PM
Try 2 to 3 times that price for a damn good pup.
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: fowl smacker on March 13, 2019, 05:00:07 AM
Post by: Colin on March 13, 2019, 05:42:45 AM
I recently bred my stud dog to two females. A puppy from their litters are $1200 and $1250 respectively. So why do they cost what they cost? How did the owners of the females set that price?
Well lets look at my stud dog. He's nicely pedigreed. His sire FC/AFC Blackwater Rudy has produced 10 FC's and 11 AFC's and 38 offspring with All Age Field Trial points. That ranks him #28 and #23 (ish there's some interpretation here). Rudy's offspring, of those registered with OFA, 156 have "good" hips, 79 "excellent" and 9 "fair". His Dam has a MH title but her parents were a National Field Champion bred to an National Amateur Field Champion. My stud's Dam has progeny with OFA hips registered and of those 6 are "excellent" and 5 are "good". He's also 8 for 9 in Master Tests, has never failed a HRCH test and qualified to run at the MNH this past year where we did very well but went out in the last series. :'(
But all that doesn't mean he can hunt... I'll attach some photos and maybe some members will chime in that hunt with me.
My stud has a lot of health clearances and strong results.
Hips: Excellent
Elbows: Normal
Eyes: Certified by CAER
Heart: Echo clear for defect
EIC/CNM/PRA/DM/D Locus - Clear
The females he was bred to this winter both have MH titles and had "excellent" and "good" hips as well as genetic clearances, some by way of clear parents.
Here are links to the pedigrees:
https://huntinglabpedigree.com/puppy.asp?id=25050
https://huntinglabpedigree.com/puppy.asp?id=25038
You get what you pay for most of the time but you only know what your paying for if you know where and how to look for it.
Health Clearances should be found at www.ofa.org and you should check that they are, even if your breeder assures that they. There is a ton of info there that you can look at about the siblings, other offspring etc etc etc. So much data that can help you make a good decision.
If you can look a dog up at OFA then you can get the AKC number and look at a dogs performance record at www.entryexpress.net This will tell you if they took a lot of tests to title or if they did it efficiently. If they were pro trained etc etc etc.
Lots of nice dogs get posted on www.huntinglabpedigree.com and that can give you a good idea of what puppies cost from what kind of parents.
For me personally I want a dog with drive and style but balance and trainability. I'm gonna hunt this sucker hard. He's gonna wait to be sent on retrievers, be able to pick up the long cripple that sailed before searching in the dekes for the 3 birds that dropped stone dead. He's gonna run huge blinds on the snow goose in the back of the flock that gets shot as part of a scotch double out to 400 yards or more. In the off season we are gonna train 3-5 times a week and play in the dog games! I put a lot of time into my dogs and I think it shows. If you dont plan to train much then go ahead and buy a less expensive dog. A cheap untrained dog is still the same pain in the ass as an expensive untrained dog. The difference is generally found in health cost over the life of the dog and the ease of which the dog can be trained. There will always be exceptions to this but its genetics so why not stack the deck in your favor. We are talking about the difference between a $800 puppy and a $1200 puppy.
The litters for $1800 or more should be national caliber pedigree's with excellent health clearances and have at least on parent with advanced HT (MNH/GRHRCH) or FT (FC/AFC) titles other wise you're wasting your money on an overpriced lab, probably based on color or some other factor that really doesn't mean anything relative to performance and you should run like the wind from that litter and breeder.
Post by: fowl smacker on March 13, 2019, 06:29:56 AM
There are a lot of things that should be considered when looking at a littler of puppies and things that go into the price of a puppy.Excellent post!
I recently bred my stud dog to two females. A puppy from their litters are $1200 and $1250 respectively. So why do they cost what they cost? How did the owners of the females set that price?
Well lets look at my stud dog. He's nicely pedigreed. His sire FC/AFC Blackwater Rudy has produced 10 FC's and 11 AFC's and 38 offspring with All Age Field Trial points. That ranks him #28 and #23 (ish there's some interpretation here). Rudy's offspring, of those registered with OFA, 156 have "good" hips, 79 "excellent" and 9 "fair". His Dam has a MH title but her parents were a National Field Champion bred to an National Amateur Field Champion. My stud's Dam has progeny with OFA hips registered and of those 6 are "excellent" and 5 are "good". He's also 8 for 9 in Master Tests, has never failed a HRCH test and qualified to run at the MNH this past year where we did very well but went out in the last series. :'(
But all that doesn't mean he can hunt... I'll attach some photos and maybe some members will chime in that hunt with me.
My stud has a lot of health clearances and strong results.
Hips: Excellent
Elbows: Normal
Eyes: Certified by CAER
Heart: Echo clear for defect
EIC/CNM/PRA/DM/D Locus - Clear
The females he was bred to this winter both have MH titles and had "excellent" and "good" hips as well as genetic clearances, some by way of clear parents.
Here are links to the pedigrees:
https://huntinglabpedigree.com/puppy.asp?id=25050
https://huntinglabpedigree.com/puppy.asp?id=25038
You get what you pay for most of the time but you only know what your paying for if you know where and how to look for it.
Health Clearances should be found at www.ofa.org and you should check that they are, even if your breeder assures that they. There is a ton of info there that you can look at about the siblings, other offspring etc etc etc. So much data that can help you make a good decision.
If you can look a dog up at OFA then you can get the AKC number and look at a dogs performance record at www.entryexpress.net This will tell you if they took a lot of tests to title or if they did it efficiently. If they were pro trained etc etc etc.
Lots of nice dogs get posted on www.huntinglabpedigree.com and that can give you a good idea of what puppies cost from what kind of parents.
For me personally I want a dog with drive and style but balance and trainability. I'm gonna hunt this sucker hard. He's gonna wait to be sent on retrievers, be able to pick up the long cripple that sailed before searching in the dekes for the 3 birds that dropped stone dead. He's gonna run huge blinds on the snow goose in the back of the flock that gets shot as part of a scotch double out to 400 yards or more. In the off season we are gonna train 3-5 times a week and play in the dog games! I put a lot of time into my dogs and I think it shows. If you dont plan to train much then go ahead and buy a less expensive dog. A cheap untrained dog is still the same pain in the ass as an expensive untrained dog. The difference is generally found in health cost over the life of the dog and the ease of which the dog can be trained. There will always be exceptions to this but its genetics so why not stack the deck in your favor. We are talking about the difference between a $800 puppy and a $1200 puppy.
The litters for $1800 or more should be national caliber pedigree's with excellent health clearances and have at least on parent with advanced HT (MNH/GRHRCH) or FT (FC/AFC) titles other wise you're wasting your money on an overpriced lab, probably based on color or some other factor that really doesn't mean anything relative to performance and you should run like the wind from that litter and breeder.
Post by: rainshadow1 on March 13, 2019, 08:50:26 AM
Best field dog I ever had, or have ever seen, I bought for $40. Purebred unpapered Lab. She could go on a widely spread triple retrieve, and I could stop her in the field 30 yards out and make her lie down and wait for another flight of ducks while holding duck 2 in her mouth, then upon release she'd finish #2 and got get #3, all by hand signals. She would fetch specific things around the house, not random things, the specific things I told her to fetch. She hated to play ball, but was fiercely aggravated with anyone or any dog who didn't take hunting as serious as death. She taught herself to circle out and hunt late season pheasants back towards me when we were hunting alone... she got frustrated when they'd flush 70 yards out and I didn't shoot, so she figured that one out on her own. She was amazing. Slightly narrow hips, but never damaged her, nor cost me a dime. Only injury she ever had was when she pulled a jaw muscle fetching a large goose that was crippled and fighting her.
Only vet money I ever spent on her was getting her fixed after one litter of cross breeds, and a heated pad when she got old. I'm not like most, I suppose, but I don't rush an animal to the vet every few days. She healed a few injuries on her own, never got sick, and went and hid from us to die.
Hands down the best dog I've ever seen or had... But, I was at a time in my life when I was able to spend an hour a day training her for almost her entire first year. Combination of instinct, ability, drive... and lots of training.
I have a higher bred lab (female) now, without letters, but with good papers... a lot of the same personality and intelligence. I haven't spent 5% of the time training her, but she's still a great field dog. Has the potential to be amazing, similar to above. Much more "textbook" build and health, wide hips, sharp as a razor. But unshown and untrialed. I just don't worry about that. That whole "world" becomes a place I don't want to hang around.
I have a friend with a stud with the same status. Ideally built. Hunts him more and trains him more. Gorgeous dog.
Our pups are exceptional. We've had one litter and we'll have more litters. But we'd never charge the crazy money. Just don't believe in it.
Being fully in favor of free enterprise, and believing in quality control in all fields of endeavor, I don't want to poop on what I used to always call the "Championed Out" dogs... But the reader of this thread shouldn't be given the impression that there aren't any other puppies out there that will be "good". Far from it.
Look at the parents. Ask questions. And the market will come to you.
Be prepared to train - HARD - for the first year, then maintain it after that. Biggest factor by FAR.
I apologize in advance for the offense that may be taken by the high-bred abbreviation crowd! Still appreciate you guys!
Post by: aman on March 13, 2019, 09:02:53 AM
I would do your research and find a line that fits your lifestyle and get the healthiest pup you possibly can (even if it means driving out of state). Not everyone has the lifestyle or time to properly raise a high drive dog.
See Colin's post. He knows what's he's talking about.
Post by: Bluemoon on March 13, 2019, 02:01:34 PM
Post by: Colin on March 13, 2019, 02:03:37 PM
It's easy to get sensory overload with all the information here. One thing I will ad. If breeder say health certs are cleared by parentage run away. It means breeders are to cheap to run a $100.00 DNA test. Breeding clear to clear can still produce carriers. You are just lowering the odds.Maybe I'm misunderstanding but breeding clear to clear cant produce carriers. OFA gives a cert if you can prove clear parentage.
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Post by: Bluemoon on March 13, 2019, 02:34:22 PM
www.institutionofcaninebiology.org
Vetchick.com
There is a breeder on this site who boast tested healthy dogs. I will not name or point fingers, however one of the pups bred at a year old came down with sever displacement. Of course new owners were blamed by breeder who denied everything. Even though owners are in the health industry. One a Dr. the other a RN.
Post by: Colin on March 13, 2019, 02:38:21 PM
Colin here are a few links to read up on. You will find this interesting.Thanks! Will read this tonight!
www.institutionofcaninebiology.org
Vetchick.com
There is a breeder on this site who boast tested healthy dogs. I will not name or point fingers, however one of the pups bred at a year old came down with sever displacement. Of course new owners were blamed by breeder who denied everything. Even though owners are in the health industry. One a Dr. the other a RN.
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Post by: jackelope on March 13, 2019, 02:48:29 PM
Figure out what you want and go for it. Most guys don't need a $2000 lab with all the background stuff. Health cert's should be a minimum.
I will say that my kid shows animals, and buying quality stock from reputable/established/proven breeders holds a lot more weight to me than taking a shot in the dark on an animal with no background. Some people want proven quality and will pay for it.
Make the best better....
Post by: KFhunter on March 13, 2019, 03:03:29 PM
It's just a bunch of bling and marketing, every dog is a risk no matter what the breeding and some of the high end line bred animals are even more risky.
It's all sales and what people are willing to pay.
I had some labs that'd hold their own with any fancy dog and I got em free out the back of a truck at a feed store.
Do you all know the difference between "line bred" and "inbred"?
line bred is considered to be successful, if it wasn't successful it was inbred.
Your best odds are with repeat breeding's that's had 2 or 3 generations of very successful pups, then your odds of getting something weird are a little bit less.
$1500 lab :chuckle: :DOH:
I should start a puppy mill :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on March 13, 2019, 03:12:24 PM
I personally think some of you guys think the inexpensive dogs will do what the fancy dogs will do because you've never seen what the fancy expensive dogs will actually do. It's about more than what they'll do in the field.
Post by: KFhunter on March 13, 2019, 05:28:06 PM
Post by: Ldav on March 13, 2019, 07:21:23 PM
You guys now have me thinking though that I need to really look more into solid hunting performance/drive from the parents. Especially when you're spending that much money. The pup will be a duck dog as well as a family dog so I want to make sure there is some balance there as well.
Thanks for the links Colin. I will check them out! Looks like you can find recent litters on there too.
Post by: Alchase on March 13, 2019, 07:23:08 PM
My family raised hunting labs for many years. We had some incredible hunting dogs and some more suited for a couch.
Our best dog was given to us because he was the runt from a friend of my Dad’s litter. No body wanted to buy the runt. He grew to 95 pounds of amazing goose, duck, pheasant and chucar dog, with a massive square head. He lived 17 years.
When discussing papered dogs, My dad always said
“anyone can read a piece of paper, but dogs can’t read, and very few people can read a dog and know a good one when they see one. A piece of paper can’t tell you that.”
Post by: KFhunter on March 13, 2019, 07:57:57 PM
Thanks for the thoughts guys. Didn't realize it was such a heated topic haha. I've sort of expected to be paying around $1000-1200 for a pup with solid hunting lines and genetics. The $1800 price shocked me though. That just seemed like a lot. Especially since neither of the parents have master hunter titles. More show stock I think. I do trust the breeder though and confident they run a good puppy program. Great referrals as well.
You guys now have me thinking though that I need to really look more into solid hunting performance/drive from the parents. Especially when you're spending that much money. The pup will be a duck dog as well as a family dog so I want to make sure there is some balance there as well.
Thanks for the links Colin. I will check them out! Looks like you can find recent litters on there too.
$1800 should buy you the moon on a pup, gotta have proven parents back generations, repeat breeding with proven litters, fully papered, tested and certified and in the color/gender you want. In other words there shouldn't be any compromises.
but really if you aren't breeding do you need all that paper? I didn't even register mine, ain't breeding, ain't showing, ain't trialing, ain't selling.
Lot of people get hung up on buying top $ paper dogs and bring them home and never hunt them. Wish I had a stat on how many dogs get sold as hunting dogs that never hunt? Most.
Post by: MADMAX on March 13, 2019, 08:04:44 PM
I thought we were nuts spending $300.
Post by: jackelope on March 13, 2019, 08:08:19 PM
“Charles W. Herbster, a Republican donor and businessman, is also a respected cattle producer and owner of Herbster Angus Farms in Falls City, Nebraska.
His was the successful bid on 'SAV America 8018' at the Schaff Angus Valley production sale held on its ranch outside Saint Anthony.”
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190314/aeaec97bfe5673126b5727576a091798.jpg)
Some people pay $2.1m for a cow.
:dunno:
Post by: KFhunter on March 13, 2019, 08:12:33 PM
That one gets me, the pup picking its owner :chuckle:
Post by: KFhunter on March 13, 2019, 08:16:32 PM
What’s ridiculous to me is the folks who are selling labs for $1500 that don’t have any health cert’s or anything at all to support their price. They think they see an opportunity to make money and they go for it. The proven dogs with paper to back them I’m good with.
“Charles W. Herbster, a Republican donor and businessman, is also a respected cattle producer and owner of Herbster Angus Farms in Falls City, Nebraska.
His was the successful bid on 'SAV America 8018' at the Schaff Angus Valley production sale held on its ranch outside Saint Anthony.”
Some people pay $2.1m for a cow.
:dunno:
That bull will probably never see the back of a cow, too risky, it might bend its pink rocket; no....it'll be milked with an electrical prod to stimulate it's prostate and its semen sold in straws for a premium price to producers all over the world.
I'm glad you posted this, that 2.1m is all business, there's no emotional attachment to livestock. Dogs are an emotional purchase, and sellers capitalize on that with lots of ways to play to a buyers emotion and extract more money than the dog is worth - if the dog were to be looked at as livestock, but too many people they're shopping for a furbaby, they might as well be shopping for a child and no money is too much money if you're buying a child.
Post by: Westside88 on March 13, 2019, 08:19:26 PM
Yes, that is the norm.This is true. The breeders who do things right have a lot invested. It seems like a lot of money, but to get a quality dog in good health it’s worh it
Most dog people will tell you that the initial price is the cheap part...
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 14, 2019, 12:02:22 AM
If it smells funny its probably bullsnot. There is a price point based upon availability. Real nice lab breedings are a dime a dozen. Lots of specimens available to make good papers. $1,200 is a good number for a well bred lab. Pushing $2,000 up each parent should be field trial quality and have proven prodigy.
Get into off breeds, the price increases based on proven performance and availability of said breed with titles.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 14, 2019, 05:00:55 AM
Post by: fowl smacker on March 14, 2019, 05:30:51 AM
Post by: Jpmiller on March 14, 2019, 06:37:15 AM
A trainer bought her and she didn't really have a hunting drive so we got her on the cheap from him at about seven months old. Absolutely fantastic family dog and after alot of work she turned into a mediocre duck dog. The guy we bought her from says it happens more often than you'd think but I'd buy her again in a heartbeat.
This is purely anecdotal though so take it for what it's worth.
Post by: nutntoit on March 15, 2019, 08:53:16 AM
Post by: jagermiester on March 15, 2019, 11:38:02 AM
Do you think that you will hunt this dog 10 days a year if there are ducks maybe not worth the money? You can still find a nice dog for $500 for that purpose. I would go out to some of the retriever club training days and help out with those guys get to know them and let them know what you plan on doing. They should be able to steer you into the right homebred dog or awesome hunting line breeder.
Post by: jagermiester on March 15, 2019, 11:44:08 AM
Post by: Colin on March 15, 2019, 12:43:35 PM
I just looked and Whistling Wings has a new member meet and greet this Sunday in Monroe. I would join their group and check it out. You would probably leave that with tons of knowledge and a couple of leads on upcoming litters of $700 puppys to $2000.
It cant hurt you and its a free event.
Post by: HaydenHunter on March 18, 2019, 10:07:52 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 18, 2019, 10:05:50 PM
I probably shouldn't chime in, as the whole world of showing and trials is a bit of an affront to me and my redneck socioeconomic class.... and I've been involved in it before, I used to breed English Bulldogs, and had lots of exposure to show snobbery and the dogs associated. I have shirttail relatives who were into breeding Labs with letters, heavily, dozens of breeding dogs in their kennels, hired hands traveling to trials and shows. My Sister in Law bred Huskies and Labs for many years. I have plenty of input... but it wouldn't sway anyone with the prefix letters firmly in mind.
Best field dog I ever had, or have ever seen, I bought for $40. Purebred unpapered Lab. She could go on a widely spread triple retrieve, and I could stop her in the field 30 yards out and make her lie down and wait for another flight of ducks while holding duck 2 in her mouth, then upon release she'd finish #2 and got get #3, all by hand signals. She would fetch specific things around the house, not random things, the specific things I told her to fetch. She hated to play ball, but was fiercely aggravated with anyone or any dog who didn't take hunting as serious as death. She taught herself to circle out and hunt late season pheasants back towards me when we were hunting alone... she got frustrated when they'd flush 70 yards out and I didn't shoot, so she figured that one out on her own. She was amazing. Slightly narrow hips, but never damaged her, nor cost me a dime. Only injury she ever had was when she pulled a jaw muscle fetching a large goose that was crippled and fighting her.
Only vet money I ever spent on her was getting her fixed after one litter of cross breeds, and a heated pad when she got old. I'm not like most, I suppose, but I don't rush an animal to the vet every few days. She healed a few injuries on her own, never got sick, and went and hid from us to die.
Hands down the best dog I've ever seen or had... But, I was at a time in my life when I was able to spend an hour a day training her for almost her entire first year. Combination of instinct, ability, drive... and lots of training.
I have a higher bred lab (female) now, without letters, but with good papers... a lot of the same personality and intelligence. I haven't spent 5% of the time training her, but she's still a great field dog. Has the potential to be amazing, similar to above. Much more "textbook" build and health, wide hips, sharp as a razor. But unshown and untrialed. I just don't worry about that. That whole "world" becomes a place I don't want to hang around.
I have a friend with a stud with the same status. Ideally built. Hunts him more and trains him more. Gorgeous dog.
Our pups are exceptional. We've had one litter and we'll have more litters. But we'd never charge the crazy money. Just don't believe in it.
Being fully in favor of free enterprise, and believing in quality control in all fields of endeavor, I don't want to poop on what I used to always call the "Championed Out" dogs... But the reader of this thread shouldn't be given the impression that there aren't any other puppies out there that will be "good". Far from it.
Look at the parents. Ask questions. And the market will come to you.
Be prepared to train - HARD - for the first year, then maintain it after that. Biggest factor by FAR.
I apologize in advance for the offense that may be taken by the high-bred abbreviation crowd! Still appreciate you guys!
What is your trial and show experience? Have you done both?
Post by: HoofsandWings on March 21, 2019, 02:54:18 PM
What about those who have to send a dog to a trainer?
Post by: KFhunter on March 21, 2019, 08:28:44 PM
So you have a pup. How much do you spend on training? I know the do it yourself owner cost is only time spent.
What about those who have to send a dog to a trainer?
"I know the do it yourself owner cost is only time spent"
I beg to differ :chuckle:
For my anyways!
3 remote DT launchers
Ecaller
pigeons + feed + coup
lines, leads, FF tables
pinch collars
bumpers
scents (no longer use)
stake outs
I don't remember what all else :chuckle:
Post by: coachcw on March 23, 2019, 10:11:25 AM
Post by: cem3434 on March 23, 2019, 12:20:59 PM
Post by: YellowDog on April 12, 2019, 07:39:06 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 14, 2019, 10:09:42 AM
I just saw on Longhollow Retrievers facebook page that he has a young male pup in their training program that they are looking to rehome at the end of this summers trials seasom. Might be worth a csll for some of you looking for a pup soon.
Purchasing a "washout" for around $3-5K is always a heck of a deal for a bird hunter. Figure a year or two of training at about $1,000 a month.
Post by: rainshadow1 on April 14, 2019, 12:51:23 PM
I just saw on Longhollow Retrievers facebook page that he has a young male pup in their training program that they are looking to rehome at the end of this summers trials seasom. Might be worth a csll for some of you looking for a pup soon.
Purchasing a "washout" for around $3-5K is always a heck of a deal for a bird hunter. Figure a year or two of training at about $1,000 a month.
Grand a month per "student?!?!?!" Hmmmm…. dogs like me, and my retrievers have always turned out pretty good.... I'm in the wrong business!
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 15, 2019, 10:27:50 PM
I just saw on Longhollow Retrievers facebook page that he has a young male pup in their training program that they are looking to rehome at the end of this summers trials seasom. Might be worth a csll for some of you looking for a pup soon.
Purchasing a "washout" for around $3-5K is always a heck of a deal for a bird hunter. Figure a year or two of training at about $1,000 a month.
Grand a month per "student?!?!?!" Hmmmm…. dogs like me, and my retrievers have always turned out pretty good.... I'm in the wrong business!
Hunting experience is always paramount in a good hunting dog. But, when you've hunted with one that has the skills to go where you tell it, go as far as you ask it and get a bird...it can be amazing. Also, most importantly, it goes where you tell it and keeps going where you tell it and that part adds a huge level of safety for the dog because you are giving it directions like an air traffic controller. some dogs may go out there yet, stop taking directions in critical conditions which would put a dog who is not trained in serious jeopardy. A very well trained dog who will listen to your control and trust your direction will be safe and come back to you after a long series of handling. It will also not waste game and do so in a safe manner. Just depends on how you hunt, where you hunt, how much you hunt and your personal expectations of a hunt.
Post by: AspenBud on April 17, 2019, 07:03:49 AM
Do you pretty much need to expect to spend upwards of $1500 on a purebred, papered lab with hunting lines nowadays?
One breeder I'm looking at is asking around $1800.
I'm considering getting a pup this spring and just wanted to see if I'm nuts to consider spending that much on a puppy or not. Seems like a lot of the breeders I've looked at are round that price though..
Just wanted to get anyones thoughts. Thanks!
Shop out of state.
Post by: AspenBud on April 17, 2019, 07:06:34 AM
I just saw on Longhollow Retrievers facebook page that he has a young male pup in their training program that they are looking to rehome at the end of this summers trials seasom. Might be worth a csll for some of you looking for a pup soon.
Purchasing a "washout" for around $3-5K is always a heck of a deal for a bird hunter. Figure a year or two of training at about $1,000 a month.
It's a "heck of a deal" for the seller. Washed out pointing dogs don't go for that. Especially Pointers.
Breeders sell at prices that people are willing to pay.
Post by: Colin on April 17, 2019, 07:44:30 AM
Depends what your perspective is but the seller of a FT retriever washout that's selling a dog for 3-5k is losing money on the deal and probably a lot depending on how much training the dog has. 12 months of training on the cheap side is 9k. To have a dog that's been put thru a pros program for 12 months is an absolute steal at that price.I just saw on Longhollow Retrievers facebook page that he has a young male pup in their training program that they are looking to rehome at the end of this summers trials seasom. Might be worth a csll for some of you looking for a pup soon.
Purchasing a "washout" for around $3-5K is always a heck of a deal for a bird hunter. Figure a year or two of training at about $1,000 a month.
It's a "heck of a deal" for the seller. Washed out pointing dogs don't go for that. Especially Pointers.
Breeders sell at prices that people are willing to pay.
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Post by: jackelope on April 17, 2019, 07:51:11 AM
Post by: Colin on April 17, 2019, 08:00:52 AM
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Post by: Colin on April 17, 2019, 08:04:31 AM
Post by: CoryTDF on April 17, 2019, 08:47:33 AM
There are a lot of things that should be considered when looking at a littler of puppies and things that go into the price of a puppy.
I recently bred my stud dog to two females. A puppy from their litters are $1200 and $1250 respectively. So why do they cost what they cost? How did the owners of the females set that price?
Well lets look at my stud dog. He's nicely pedigreed. His sire FC/AFC Blackwater Rudy has produced 10 FC's and 11 AFC's and 38 offspring with All Age Field Trial points. That ranks him #28 and #23 (ish there's some interpretation here). Rudy's offspring, of those registered with OFA, 156 have "good" hips, 79 "excellent" and 9 "fair". His Dam has a MH title but her parents were a National Field Champion bred to an National Amateur Field Champion. My stud's Dam has progeny with OFA hips registered and of those 6 are "excellent" and 5 are "good". He's also 8 for 9 in Master Tests, has never failed a HRCH test and qualified to run at the MNH this past year where we did very well but went out in the last series. :'(
But all that doesn't mean he can hunt... I'll attach some photos and maybe some members will chime in that hunt with me.
My stud has a lot of health clearances and strong results.
Hips: Excellent
Elbows: Normal
Eyes: Certified by CAER
Heart: Echo clear for defect
EIC/CNM/PRA/DM/D Locus - Clear
The females he was bred to this winter both have MH titles and had "excellent" and "good" hips as well as genetic clearances, some by way of clear parents.
Here are links to the pedigrees:
https://huntinglabpedigree.com/puppy.asp?id=25050
https://huntinglabpedigree.com/puppy.asp?id=25038
You get what you pay for most of the time but you only know what your paying for if you know where and how to look for it.
Health Clearances should be found at www.ofa.org and you should check that they are, even if your breeder assures that they. There is a ton of info there that you can look at about the siblings, other offspring etc etc etc. So much data that can help you make a good decision.
If you can look a dog up at OFA then you can get the AKC number and look at a dogs performance record at www.entryexpress.net This will tell you if they took a lot of tests to title or if they did it efficiently. If they were pro trained etc etc etc.
Lots of nice dogs get posted on www.huntinglabpedigree.com and that can give you a good idea of what puppies cost from what kind of parents.
For me personally I want a dog with drive and style but balance and trainability. I'm gonna hunt this sucker hard. He's gonna wait to be sent on retrievers, be able to pick up the long cripple that sailed before searching in the dekes for the 3 birds that dropped stone dead. He's gonna run huge blinds on the snow goose in the back of the flock that gets shot as part of a scotch double out to 400 yards or more. In the off season we are gonna train 3-5 times a week and play in the dog games! I put a lot of time into my dogs and I think it shows. If you dont plan to train much then go ahead and buy a less expensive dog. A cheap untrained dog is still the same pain in the ass as an expensive untrained dog. The difference is generally found in health cost over the life of the dog and the ease of which the dog can be trained. There will always be exceptions to this but its genetics so why not stack the deck in your favor. We are talking about the difference between a $800 puppy and a $1200 puppy.
The litters for $1800 or more should be national caliber pedigree's with excellent health clearances and have at least on parent with advanced HT (MNH/GRHRCH) or FT (FC/AFC) titles other wise you're wasting your money on an overpriced lab, probably based on color or some other factor that really doesn't mean anything relative to performance and you should run like the wind from that litter and breeder.
Spot on! Lord knows i have been preaching this on here for years. Spend the money up front and stack the deck for the future.
Post by: AspenBud on April 17, 2019, 01:05:49 PM
I have a feeling that in pointers a FT washout means something different than with FT retrievers and that may be why the price didn't seem to make sense to AspenBud.
I think it’s more of a supply and demand issue.
Post by: Jpmiller on April 17, 2019, 05:05:30 PM
What does "washed out" mean?
Our dog was a washout. She was better than my training and I was thrilled with her. We got her for I think about a thousand bucks at laround nine months old. Had bird experience, knew all the commands and what to do but she didn't perform at a top 3% level like they though she would so they didn't want to keep training her. I'd do it again in a heart beat. This was fifteen or so years ago.
Post by: jackelope on April 18, 2019, 10:05:07 AM
What does "washed out" mean?
Our dog was a washout. She was better than my training and I was thrilled with her. We got her for I think about a thousand bucks at laround nine months old. Had bird experience, knew all the commands and what to do but she didn't perform at a top 3% level like they though she would so they didn't want to keep training her. I'd do it again in a heart beat. This was fifteen or so years ago.
Seems like a wash out retriever will be more than 95% of hunters would ever have.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 20, 2019, 12:06:51 AM
Post by: Birdguy on April 20, 2019, 03:58:52 PM
Post by: cem3434 on April 21, 2019, 03:14:01 PM
I just saw on Longhollow Retrievers facebook page that he has a young male pup in their training program that they are looking to rehome at the end of this summers trials seasom. Might be worth a csll for some of you looking for a pup soon.
Do you got a link? I couldnt find anything on their website. :dunno:
Post by: idaho guy on April 21, 2019, 10:31:26 PM
.Thanks for the thoughts guys. Didn't realize it was such a heated topic haha. I've sort of expected to be paying around $1000-1200 for a pup with solid hunting lines and genetics. The $1800 price shocked me though. That just seemed like a lot. Especially since neither of the parents have master hunter titles. More show stock I think. I do trust the breeder though and confident they run a good puppy program. Great referrals as well.
You guys now have me thinking though that I need to really look more into solid hunting performance/drive from the parents. Especially when you're spending that much money. The pup will be a duck dog as well as a family dog so I want to make sure there is some balance there as well.
Thanks for the links Colin. I will check them out! Looks like you can find recent litters on there too.
$1800 should buy you the moon on a pup, gotta have proven parents back generations, repeat breeding with proven litters, fully papered, tested and certified and in the color/gender you want. In other words there shouldn't be any compromises.
but really if you aren't breeding do you need all that paper? I didn't even register mine, ain't breeding, ain't showing, ain't trialing, ain't selling.
Lot of people get hung up on buying top $ paper dogs and bring them home and never hunt them. Wish I had a stat on how many dogs get sold as hunting dogs that never hunt? Most.
3 of the 4 Huntin dogs I consider my best were free :dunno: the dogs i have now we’re free and I would put them up against any other hunting dog in the woods. One is papered and my buddy sold other puppies from the litter but gave me one. The other was living on the couch with some shirttail relatives in Montana but I was able to get her under a year old. I have a friend who sells trained hounds and he thought I could have sold her for 5 to 6k a year or two ago. Both dogs came out of proven hunting lines and I know that is huge in increasing your odds of a good hunter but no guarantee. Best bear dog I ever seen was my freinds that he got from the pound! It was a mut and I have noticed quite a few mixed breed hounds ended up being some of the better hunters I have seen. Anyways hounds so different breed but if you want to hunt your dog I think these things apply to bird dogs. Finally I have a lab who came from a field trial champion and a champion show dog. My wife got the dog for a few hundred but we had to fix her. Amazing blood lines and she is a 200lb pig! She had no drive and I tried on ducks with no success and switched to horns. She found one winter kill buck and I think she just wanted to chew on the left over meat! Kids like her but she only eats and poops :chuckle: I am not a lab guy and I know that so not trying to offend the guys on here that know more than me. Just some thoughts from my experience hunting hounds. 1800 for a pup to me sounds crazy. Good luck with your hunting dog nothing more fun than training and watching your dog develop into a great hunter
Post by: CoryTDF on April 22, 2019, 09:22:12 AM
.Thanks for the thoughts guys. Didn't realize it was such a heated topic haha. I've sort of expected to be paying around $1000-1200 for a pup with solid hunting lines and genetics. The $1800 price shocked me though. That just seemed like a lot. Especially since neither of the parents have master hunter titles. More show stock I think. I do trust the breeder though and confident they run a good puppy program. Great referrals as well.
You guys now have me thinking though that I need to really look more into solid hunting performance/drive from the parents. Especially when you're spending that much money. The pup will be a duck dog as well as a family dog so I want to make sure there is some balance there as well.
Thanks for the links Colin. I will check them out! Looks like you can find recent litters on there too.
$1800 should buy you the moon on a pup, gotta have proven parents back generations, repeat breeding with proven litters, fully papered, tested and certified and in the color/gender you want. In other words there shouldn't be any compromises.
but really if you aren't breeding do you need all that paper? I didn't even register mine, ain't breeding, ain't showing, ain't trialing, ain't selling.
Lot of people get hung up on buying top $ paper dogs and bring them home and never hunt them. Wish I had a stat on how many dogs get sold as hunting dogs that never hunt? Most.
3 of the 4 Huntin dogs I consider my best were free :dunno: the dogs i have now we’re free and I would put them up against any other hunting dog in the woods. One is papered and my buddy sold other puppies from the litter but gave me one. The other was living on the couch with some shirttail relatives in Montana but I was able to get her under a year old. I have a friend who sells trained hounds and he thought I could have sold her for 5 to 6k a year or two ago. Both dogs came out of proven hunting lines and I know that is huge in increasing your odds of a good hunter but no guarantee. Best bear dog I ever seen was my freinds that he got from the pound! It was a mut and I have noticed quite a few mixed breed hounds ended up being some of the better hunters I have seen. Anyways hounds so different breed but if you want to hunt your dog I think these things apply to bird dogs. Finally I have a lab who came from a field trial champion and a champion show dog. My wife got the dog for a few hundred but we had to fix her. Amazing blood lines and she is a 200lb pig! She had no drive and I tried on ducks with no success and switched to horns. She found one winter kill buck and I think she just wanted to chew on the left over meat! Kids like her but she only eats and poops :chuckle: I am not a lab guy and I know that so not trying to offend the guys on here that know more than me. Just some thoughts from my experience hunting hounds. 1800 for a pup to me sounds crazy. Good luck with your hunting dog nothing more fun than training and watching your dog develop into a great hunter
If you want and hunting do you want to keep clear of anything that has SHOW DOG in it's lines. :twocents: I can force fetch a greyhound and have it retrieve so for those that want to jump in and say that they have show dogs and they can hunt I'm not trying to argue that. You could run a NASCAR race in a Pinto too. It's just that there is a better way to do things and in animals that starts with proper breeding.
Post by: 2MANY on April 22, 2019, 09:26:10 AM
LOL.
What it points and retrieves??
Post by: CoryTDF on April 22, 2019, 09:58:18 AM
Force fetching.
LOL.
What it points and retrieves??
Not sure I understand what you are getting at here? If you are unsure about what force fetching is a simple good search will help ya out. It is an extremely useful training method that is implemented by the best dog trainers in the world. So.....???????
Post by: idaho guy on April 22, 2019, 12:56:38 PM
.Thanks for the thoughts guys. Didn't realize it was such a heated topic haha. I've sort of expected to be paying around $1000-1200 for a pup with solid hunting lines and genetics. The $1800 price shocked me though. That just seemed like a lot. Especially since neither of the parents have master hunter titles. More show stock I think. I do trust the breeder though and confident they run a good puppy program. Great referrals as well.
You guys now have me thinking though that I need to really look more into solid hunting performance/drive from the parents. Especially when you're spending that much money. The pup will be a duck dog as well as a family dog so I want to make sure there is some balance there as well.
Thanks for the links Colin. I will check them out! Looks like you can find recent litters on there too.
$1800 should buy you the moon on a pup, gotta have proven parents back generations, repeat breeding with proven litters, fully papered, tested and certified and in the color/gender you want. In other words there shouldn't be any compromises.
but really if you aren't breeding do you need all that paper? I didn't even register mine, ain't breeding, ain't showing, ain't trialing, ain't selling.
Lot of people get hung up on buying top $ paper dogs and bring them home and never hunt them. Wish I had a stat on how many dogs get sold as hunting dogs that never hunt? Most.
3 of the 4 Huntin dogs I consider my best were free :dunno: the dogs i have now we’re free and I would put them up against any other hunting dog in the woods. One is papered and my buddy sold other puppies from the litter but gave me one. The other was living on the couch with some shirttail relatives in Montana but I was able to get her under a year old. I have a friend who sells trained hounds and he thought I could have sold her for 5 to 6k a year or two ago. Both dogs came out of proven hunting lines and I know that is huge in increasing your odds of a good hunter but no guarantee. Best bear dog I ever seen was my freinds that he got from the pound! It was a mut and I have noticed quite a few mixed breed hounds ended up being some of the better hunters I have seen. Anyways hounds so different breed but if you want to hunt your dog I think these things apply to bird dogs. Finally I have a lab who came from a field trial champion and a champion show dog. My wife got the dog for a few hundred but we had to fix her. Amazing blood lines and she is a 200lb pig! She had no drive and I tried on ducks with no success and switched to horns. She found one winter kill buck and I think she just wanted to chew on the left over meat! Kids like her but she only eats and poops :chuckle: I am not a lab guy and I know that so not trying to offend the guys on here that know more than me. Just some thoughts from my experience hunting hounds. 1800 for a pup to me sounds crazy. Good luck with your hunting dog nothing more fun than training and watching your dog develop into a great hunter
If you want and hunting do you want to keep clear of anything that has SHOW DOG in it's lines. :twocents: I can force fetch a greyhound and have it retrieve so for those that want to jump in and say that they have show dogs and they can hunt I'm not trying to argue that. You could run a NASCAR race in a Pinto too. It's just that there is a better way to do things and in animals that starts with proper breeding.
the sire 1/2 was a field trial champion supposedly :chuckle: I agree on show dog comment. My wife got that dog as more of a pet and I tried to make it a hunter. Point of my post is the majority of my best hunting hounds were free. One is papered and I have seen some of the best hounds being mixed up dogs. Again I am not a lab guy just some observations from a lot of years hunting hounds and I would think some would apply to labs as well provided you want to hunt them.
Post by: AspenBud on April 30, 2019, 07:41:37 PM
I would not however spend my money on a dog out of “hunt’in dog” lines with no pedigree and up close trial champions or Master Hunter titled dogs going back a few generations on both the top and bottom of the pedigree. You may as well rescue a bird dog instead. On health clearances alone it simply does not pay unless you know exactly what you are buying.