Post by: Crunchy on March 28, 2019, 12:28:38 PM
I already have primers, bullet, and powder picked out from previous loads
1. Seat bullet .020 off the lands
2. Figure starting charge and go up in .3 grain increments to where I think max load will be
3. Grab chrono and head to the range
4. I dont worry at all about where my impacts are. Usually dont even shoot at a target. I looked for nodes (flat spots) from the chrono data that expand say 3 rounds. I usually find 2-3 nodes depending how low of a charge I start at and end at.
5. I shoot until I reach max load where primers and/or sticky bolt/swipe marks show and stop there.
6. Go to chrono data and load 3 rounds each of the node range(s) and then shoot at some paper 100 yards. Best 2-3 groups go to the final stage.
7. Load 5 from the 2-3 groups and shoot at 200. One should stand out. If not, seating depth gets adjusted, usually closer to the lands for bergers for me.
8. Finally, load 5 of the winner and shoot over the chrono. Looking for good ES and SD numbers. Numbers should be good based on the original chrono data I started with.
My cheapo pro chrony makes shooting at a targets, and through the chrono tough at the same time tough. If I had either a magneto speed or labradar I could shorten this up at step or two. Other than work on the brass, what steps did I leave out, miss, or are unnecessary to find my petload.
Another thing that has me wondering. My pro chrony reads speed from where it is set up (12-15 feet) from the muzzle. Most accurate reading would be at the muzzle. only chrono that gets this reading would be a magnetospeed. Not sure where labradar captures its reading. So since I am getting velocity at say 15 feet away how much of a difference would this make. Might be overthinking it, but when I order my custom dial, I want it as accurate as possible. More coming on this in another thread :chuckle:
Post by: Stein on March 28, 2019, 02:02:17 PM
I also calculated velocity with known drops at known distances and G7 for the bullet.
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Post by: jasnt on March 28, 2019, 06:44:06 PM
Which ever shot best I’ll use that seating depth for my load work. I shoot a ladder over my chrono ( I use magneto speed, must have an accurate chrono for this!) target dosent matter. Look for my upper flat spot near max. Then I’ll load up 5 shot groups and fine tune my seating depth in .005” increments.
If you don’t have a magneto speed or labradar then you could do 3 shot ladder test at 300 yards.
This is my method that’s worked well for me. Yrmv
Post by: Wolfdog2314 on March 28, 2019, 06:57:16 PM
Just got my Labradar in the mail. Looking at the different methods as I just started reloading. Brass prep stage is done. Time to load. Looking forward to following...
Post by: Crunchy on March 28, 2019, 07:27:56 PM
Another thing that has me wondering. My pro chrony reads speed from where it is set up (12-15 feet) from the muzzle. Most accurate reading would be at the muzzle. only chrono that gets this reading would be a magnetospeed. Not sure where labradar captures its reading. So since I am getting velocity at say 15 feet away how much of a difference would this make. Might be overthinking it, but when I order my custom dial, I want it as accurate as possible. More coming on this in another thread :chuckle:
Post by: Stein on March 28, 2019, 07:38:48 PM
You could always run the numbers for your load and just add that amount to the chrono speed and send it in as the muzzle velocity.
Post by: hunter399 on March 28, 2019, 07:44:34 PM
First of all you have to know what your after .
Most velocity
Or accuracy
Or both
As only reloading for few years no means , no expert.
I almost always start out at max load data that hodgdon load data is .most load data out there is on the conservative side .unless you load for some very old rifles that can't handle pressure.
Seating depth I always start out on the short side .Everyone wants to put that bullet right on the lands.I almost always start out close to what factory ammo COL then start working my way to the lands .And I can tell ya some bullets like to jump to that rifleing .let accuracy tell you where to seat the bullet.
I'm always look in for the need for speed .
I just want to send it as fast as possible accurately.
Just some things I've learned as a New born reloader.
Post by: jasnt on March 28, 2019, 07:48:47 PM
Nobody has input on this part?the pro chrono has an accuracy rating of +/- 2%. That’s a possibility double the difference velocity at 12-15’ would make. Just confirm your drop and correct velocity first when correcting values.
Another thing that has me wondering. My pro chrony reads speed from where it is set up (12-15 feet) from the muzzle. Most accurate reading would be at the muzzle. only chrono that gets this reading would be a magnetospeed. Not sure where labradar captures its reading. So since I am getting velocity at say 15 feet away how much of a difference would this make. Might be overthinking it, but when I order my custom dial, I want it as accurate as possible. More coming on this in another thread :chuckle:
If you where closer I’d be happy to let you use the magneto speed
Post by: Crunchy on March 28, 2019, 08:02:47 PM
Post by: Wolfdog2314 on March 28, 2019, 08:12:54 PM
Im just going to pull the trigger. Tired of the issues with my old chrony. Any big difference between the sporter and V3 as far as magneto speed? 200 dollar difference in price.
I just had this dilemma. I was between the two. My buddy said the V3 has some more options and better built. And ability to shoot suppressed with that (if you ever will). He then said at that point at 380$, you may as well spend another 180$ and get the Labradar. I figure I’ll have it forever and wanted the equipment to hopefully get me the most accurate load developments.
Post by: Crunchy on March 28, 2019, 08:15:52 PM
Post by: jasnt on March 28, 2019, 08:17:05 PM
Post by: buckfvr on March 28, 2019, 08:48:14 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 28, 2019, 09:04:54 PM
As for load development I usually start .030 off the lands and run up to pressure with the chrono on then pick a powder charge and speed and work seating depth after that.
Post by: b23 on March 28, 2019, 09:11:48 PM
I bought a MS V1 when they first came out and had one before most people even knew what they were. It worked perfectly and ease of setup was second to none. My dad had a Oehler 35 and with the MS being so new and crazy simple, I wasn't exactly sure what to think of it so I ran it inline with his Oehler for awhile until I had confidence in the MS. It didn't take long to develop confidence in the MS and within a couple uses of it, my dad quickly sold his Oehler and bought his own MS.
As everyone is aware, attaching, anything, to the end of a barrel will generally, big or small, change POI. Whether it's a muzzle brake or suppressor, they all have some affect on POI, but I've never had it affect group size.
Using stock mounted bayos, some of the top level ELR shooters even shoot with the bayo attached at all times.
Post by: hunter399 on March 28, 2019, 09:21:39 PM
If all you are starting .30 or .20 off the lands .How don't you know that lets say .50 off the lands is not the sweet spot for groups or accuracy.With every chamber being not exactly the same. :dunno:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 28, 2019, 09:37:03 PM
Post by: Crunchy on March 28, 2019, 09:51:01 PM
Post by: BigGoonTuna on March 29, 2019, 04:27:36 AM
I just have one question for all you expert reloader.you don't. however, i like to start around .020 off and work up to whatever max load i'm comfortable with. this is for two reasons: firstly it's a safety measure, if you're at your max near the lands and go deeper, you theoretically lose pressure. if you work up a hot load .020 off and decide to try jamming a bullet into the rifling, you could create a dangerous pressure spike.
If all you are starting .30 or .20 off the lands .How don't you know that lets say .50 off the lands is not the sweet spot for groups or accuracy.With every chamber being not exactly the same. :dunno:
the other reason is easier load workup. i don't have to worry about making a decision to go shallower or deeper, if i'm at my max OAL, it simplifies the process, i'll usually seat deeper in .020 steps to tune for accuracy.
Post by: Thehowler on March 29, 2019, 06:44:04 AM
I just have one question for all you expert reloader.
If all you are starting .30 or .20 off the lands .How don't you know that lets say .50 off the lands is not the sweet spot for groups or accuracy.With every chamber being not exactly the same. :dunno:
I am by far no export, but my rifle seems to shoot Accubonds and Nosler partitions the most accurately at .080 off the lands.
Post by: jasnt on March 29, 2019, 07:54:00 AM
I just have one question for all you expert reloader.exactly why I do seating depth testing first then fine tune after finding ocw
If all you are starting .30 or .20 off the lands .How don't you know that lets say .50 off the lands is not the sweet spot for groups or accuracy.With every chamber being not exactly the same. :dunno:
Post by: Stein on March 29, 2019, 08:20:39 AM
Post by: wooltie on March 29, 2019, 08:26:41 AM
The approach I'm using this year assumes that a given bullet will perform best at a specific seating depth, using a proven powder, regardless of the charge weight. I'm assuming that the charge weight will affect the up/down mostly. In the past I figured out charge weight first, then moved onto seating depth, with mixed results. I'm not going for max velocity, just consistent velocity and accuracy. I'd probably just find the fasted velocity the bullet will go while maintaining consistent accuracy.
I've picked a few bullets and plan to do seating tests first, with powders I've shot before at mid-range charge weights. I'm not using bergers.
Shoot three shots at .020, .050, .080 from lands.
I'm looking for the least amount of dispersion overall between l/r and up/down, but mostly focusing on the left to right spread. Pick the seating depth that performed the best and fine tune from there. Once I can minimize the right/left, and even up/down, then I'll adjust the charge weights.
I've used the chrono only in the past to find the flat spots, then load from there, but I saw that consistent velocity and low spread did not mean an accurate load. Quite the opposite actually.
Post by: buckfvr on March 29, 2019, 09:32:41 AM
Post by: timberfaller on March 29, 2019, 10:55:09 AM
Just my way of doing it, I first get all my reloading books out and look up the particular caliber I am working on. Then take and average out the "Max" loads listed based on bullet weight and same powder I intend to use. Once I have that, I back off a few grains and make up around five rounds each increasing in .5 grains for the next five rounds until I hit the average Max. Keeping them all separate so at the range I know which I am shooting. I know of a couple of firearms which went over "max" loads before they started to group and before any "pressure" signs started to show. Once I establish a tight group, usually under one inch, that where I stop. I let the firearm tell me what it likes and doesn't like.
If I don't get good results, I try a different powder or bullet. Haven't had to do that very often though. Usually come up with an acceptable group with the choices I've made. Never checked with a chronograph, groupings are more important to me then knowing the speed. Its not the speed that harvest and animal, its bullet placement and being able to place that bullet where it is needed.
I do set all my bullets as close to the lands as possible since I don't share my reloads with others. Black markers works great for finding out the OAL. And of course I record all my data!!!! once I am finished.
Some interesting things I've found with some of my firearms. Some like a particular powder and other like a certain style of bullet. Have one that loves round nose bullets no matter what, another that hates anything 120 grained. Its fun to experiment but it takes time.
Good luck!
Post by: yorketransport on March 29, 2019, 08:24:28 PM
1) Find one of my old log books lost somewhere in the complete chaos that I call a loading bench.
2) Flip through until I find the last load I used in that chambering, or something close to it.
3) Ignore all past data that I've collected and decide that I can just make something up.
4) Sit back and decide whether to use Fed 215 primers, Fed 215m primers, or CCI 450s (those are pretty much the only things I keep around.
5) Stare at my powder shelf for an hour trying to figure out if there's any way I can make IMR 4198 work in what ever case I'm loading for. I haven't used that stuff in years, but I swear it's multiplying like rabbits. :dunno:
6) When IMR 4198 won't work, reach for the Retumbo.
7) Fill the case with Retumbo until I start to feel a little nervous, then reduce that charge by 5%. If there's still room in the case after that, it's time to dig out the H50 bmg.
8 ) Seat a bullet to whatever OAL I end up with based on the last time I used those dies. If that OAL worked before, it should work again right?
9) Realize that my OAL was too long then re-seat all the bullets .050" deeper.
10) Repeat step 9 at least 5 times before I get it right.
For testing my new load:
1) Find the biggest dirt bank I can at anywhere between 500 and 1200 yards.
2) Spin the turret one full revolution for case that hold 60gr or less of powder and 1/2 revolution for cases holding up to 100gr of powder. If the case capacity is over 100gr, just hold a little high.
3) Send one shot into the center of the dirt bank and see where I hit.
4) Make the necessary adjustments to hit somewhere on the dirt bank.
5) Fire a 5 shot group and track the "scatter plot" of a group.
6) If the group is under 1 MOA, pack it all up and declare victory. If it's over 1 MOA, lie about the entire trip and tell everyone on the internet that it shot .5 MOA.
7) After my initial failure, I return home and repeat steps 1-10 for finding a load.
8 ) Repeat steps 1-7 for testing the load at least 3 more times.
9) When step 8 is completed, list the gun for sale on Long Range Hunting and state that I didn't really have time to work up a load, but it shows a lot of potential.
10) Never speak of it again.
That's just me though. :chuckle:
Post by: jasnt on March 30, 2019, 10:54:55 AM
:chuckle:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 31, 2019, 07:20:00 PM
I seem to have miscalculated my starting load. :chuckle:
Post by: jasnt on April 01, 2019, 06:03:34 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 01, 2019, 09:56:43 AM
Post by: yorketransport on April 01, 2019, 08:07:34 PM
Surprisingly that piece of brass seats a new primer like new. :chuckle:
If they still hold a primer I'd say you're good to go, start loading! :chuckle:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 01, 2019, 08:33:12 PM
:yeah: :yike:Surprisingly that piece of brass seats a new primer like new. :chuckle:
If they still hold a primer I'd say you're good to go, start loading! :chuckle:
I pulled them down tonight and reduced the charges some.
Post by: Crunchy on April 12, 2019, 02:50:23 PM
69.3 and 69.6 @3058
71.1 and 71.7 @ 3159 (71.4 3137)
72 and 72.3 @ 3205
Maybe something at
73.2 @ 3212 and 73.8 @ 3228. Need to load 73.5 and shoot these three again.
Went all the way to 74 grains, and still no cratering or sticky bolt. Pretty sure I am over max book load, so I will keep it under 74 grains. Nice day at the range. Hardly anyone there.
Post by: wooltie on April 16, 2019, 06:02:11 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 17, 2019, 09:38:53 AM
Any particular way to test different types of brass?I haven’t specifically tested types of brass. Usually just work up a load with whatever brass I decide to use. If it works well I’ll keep using it but if it doesn’t last as long and expected or for some other reason I don’t like it I’ll change to another brand.
Maybe other people test different brands and compare.
Post by: Stein on April 17, 2019, 09:59:22 AM
Federal 2,755 fps, 10.3 SD, 22 ES
Remington 2,730 fps, 13.9 SD, 35 ES
Winchester 2706 fps, 7.2 SD, 17 ES
That is a 49 fps difference in average velocity as well as a noticeable difference in ES and SD (half as much with Win vs Remington). I normally shoot Remington for my hunting loads and unsorted for range stuff, fixing that alone will tighten up my groups for free with no extra work.
I'm shooting a similar primer test this week with standard, bench rest and magnums from the major makers.
Post by: wooltie on April 17, 2019, 10:06:58 AM
I shot a simple brass test last week, 5 of each headstamp loaded with identical loads, bullets & primers. I was blown away at the variation:
Federal 2,755 fps, 10.3 SD, 22 ES
Remington 2,730 fps, 13.9 SD, 35 ES
Winchester 2706 fps, 7.2 SD, 17 ES
That is a 49 fps difference in average velocity as well as a noticeable difference in ES and SD (half as much with Win vs Remington). I normally shoot Remington for my hunting loads and unsorted for range stuff, fixing that alone will tighten up my groups for free with no extra work.
I'm shooting a similar primer test this week with standard, bench rest and magnums from the major makers.
Did your group size/appearance vary for the different types of brass? Just curious, I'm shot a few loads with SD of 10 fps, but didn't group consistently at all.
Post by: JBar on May 06, 2019, 09:20:09 PM
@crunchy if you havent already bought a magneto be aware it will affect your bullet impact for groups. I had 3/4 moa groups with the magneto on and they blew up to 2 inch groups without it. Heres a pic of a group where shot #5 was with the magneto.
Post by: Stein on May 07, 2019, 10:25:11 AM
I shot a simple brass test last week, 5 of each headstamp loaded with identical loads, bullets & primers. I was blown away at the variation:
Federal 2,755 fps, 10.3 SD, 22 ES
Remington 2,730 fps, 13.9 SD, 35 ES
Winchester 2706 fps, 7.2 SD, 17 ES
That is a 49 fps difference in average velocity as well as a noticeable difference in ES and SD (half as much with Win vs Remington). I normally shoot Remington for my hunting loads and unsorted for range stuff, fixing that alone will tighten up my groups for free with no extra work.
I'm shooting a similar primer test this week with standard, bench rest and magnums from the major makers.
Did your group size/appearance vary for the different types of brass? Just curious, I'm shot a few loads with SD of 10 fps, but didn't group consistently at all.
I wasn't paying much attention, but the accuracy has a had wall at the velocity spread. I did the same thing with primers with a similar result and the groups did follow the SD, tighter groups for lower SD.
Post by: wooltie on May 07, 2019, 10:44:14 AM
This is a 30/06. 3, 3 shot groups @ 100 yards. Each group is a different bullet loaded with .020" of jump at 2 grains under max. 180s shot well too. Now I just need to pick a bullet to move forward.
From left to right: 150g accubond, 165g partition, 150g partition. Partitions always have a nice vertical string with little left to right. Accubonds have more spread. 180g sgks shot well too. For killing deer and bears out to 300 yards, I think either bullet will work; the choice is just to satisfy the rational mind LOL.
I'll take the one that groups most consistently.
Post by: hogslayer on May 07, 2019, 07:36:58 PM
Post by: Crunchy on May 07, 2019, 08:39:09 PM
My cheapo pro chrony makes shooting at a targets, and through the chrono tough at the same time tough. If I had either a magneto speed or labradar I could shorten this up at step or two.
@crunchy if you havent already bought a magneto be aware it will affect your bullet impact for groups. I had 3/4 moa groups with the magneto on and they blew up to 2 inch groups without it. Heres a pic of a group where shot #5 was with the magneto.
yes, i have heard the stories with magnetospeeds. I did finally pull the trigger and bought one, and waiting for it to get delivered. I have a load in mine that is shooting half MOA at 200, but my prochrony is junk, and I would only get half my velocities. The ones I did get were all of the place with about a 60 SD and 100 ES. Not sure how a bullet at .5MOA at 200 could have such a spread. Guess it is the crap chrony I have/had. Once the new chrono gets here I am going to shoot again from 69.5 to 73 in .3 increments. Verify what I believe to be the nodes and go from there. I want it to be 71.3 which is my best grouping. Then shoot 10 to get accurate SD and ES. Order new dial from Leupold and done.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 07, 2019, 08:44:16 PM
Why would you chrono all the other charges if you have a 1/2 moa load already. Shoot that load over the chrono and check it at distance and call it done. :twocents:My cheapo pro chrony makes shooting at a targets, and through the chrono tough at the same time tough. If I had either a magneto speed or labradar I could shorten this up at step or two.
@crunchy if you havent already bought a magneto be aware it will affect your bullet impact for groups. I had 3/4 moa groups with the magneto on and they blew up to 2 inch groups without it. Heres a pic of a group where shot #5 was with the magneto.
yes, i have heard the stories with magnetospeeds. I did finally pull the trigger and bought one, and waiting for it to get delivered. I have a load in mine that is shooting half MOA at 200, but my prochrony is junk, and I would only get half my velocities. The ones I did get were all of the place with about a 60 SD and 100 ES. Not sure how a bullet at .5MOA at 200 could have such a spread. Guess it is the crap chrony I have/had. Once the new chrono gets here I am going to shoot again from 69.5 to 73 in .3 increments. Verify what I believe to be the nodes and go from there. I want it to be 71.3 which is my best grouping. Then shoot 10 to get accurate SD and ES. Order new dial from Leupold and done.
Post by: Crunchy on May 07, 2019, 08:50:30 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 07, 2019, 09:12:59 PM
The magnetos are sweet.
Post by: Crunchy on May 07, 2019, 10:41:27 PM
Post by: Stein on May 07, 2019, 11:19:36 PM
Having solid data really gives me confidence, one never knows if if was me or the round when you are in the 1/2 moa range.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: birddogdad on May 08, 2019, 06:43:06 AM
Subscribed.
Just got my Labradar in the mail. Looking at the different methods as I just started reloading. Brass prep stage is done. Time to load. Looking forward to following...
get a battery brick for the LR~ they chew up battery life. it has a usb connection.. i don't even put batteries in the unit
Post by: Wolfdog2314 on May 08, 2019, 07:26:49 AM
Subscribed.
Just got my Labradar in the mail. Looking at the different methods as I just started reloading. Brass prep stage is done. Time to load. Looking forward to following...
get a battery brick for the LR~ they chew up battery life. it has a usb connection.. i don't even put batteries in the unit
Good deal, ok I’ll take a look at those, thanks!
Post by: Crunchy on May 08, 2019, 08:50:25 AM
Post by: Crunchy on May 13, 2019, 07:43:10 PM
Question last go around I gave Leupold my numbers and had them cut my dial. Should I do any validation out to 400 or 500 to verify the drop? If I did, I am not certain how they would cut the dial different.. Experts say?? I think i have them my bullet G1 and G7. Verify drop and give them adjusted G1 and G7?? Or is it overkill for hunting/shooting out to 800 yards?
Post by: jasnt on May 13, 2019, 08:11:01 PM
Well I finally got the magnetospeed out to run my load work up. 71.3 grains of H1000 had an SD of 8.3 and ES of 15 which is plenty good for me. I cannot believe how off the prochrony was.personally I would just go mil or moa. Too many things can change your dope. You’ll be happy to did
Question last go around I gave Leupold my numbers and had them cut my dial. Should I do any validation out to 400 or 500 to verify the drop? If I did, I am not certain how they would cut the dial different.. Experts say?? I think i have them my bullet G1 and G7. Verify drop and give them adjusted G1 and G7?? Or is it overkill for hunting/shooting out to 800 yards?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 13, 2019, 08:16:40 PM
:yeah:Well I finally got the magnetospeed out to run my load work up. 71.3 grains of H1000 had an SD of 8.3 and ES of 15 which is plenty good for me. I cannot believe how off the prochrony was.personally I would just go mil or moa. Too many things can change your dope. You’ll be happy to did
Question last go around I gave Leupold my numbers and had them cut my dial. Should I do any validation out to 400 or 500 to verify the drop? If I did, I am not certain how they would cut the dial different.. Experts say?? I think i have them my bullet G1 and G7. Verify drop and give them adjusted G1 and G7?? Or is it overkill for hunting/shooting out to 800 yards?
Post by: jdb on May 13, 2019, 08:53:13 PM
[/quote]personally I would just go mil or moa. Too many things can change your dope. You’ll be happy to did
[/quote]would you care to elaborate on that? I truly have no idea what you meant by that but I'm interested
Post by: Crunchy on May 13, 2019, 09:08:25 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on May 13, 2019, 09:13:22 PM
personally I would just go mil or moa. Too many things can change your dope. You’ll be happy to did
[/quote]would you care to elaborate on that? I truly have no idea what you meant by that but I'm interested
[/quote]
In other words. Don’t worry about the custom CDS dial. Zero your rifle at your preferred distance. Range what your shooting at and just dial your drops in MOA or MIL’s. Depending on if your turret is Mil based or MOA based. You can be a stunt pilot and have a Mil reticle and MOA turrets. You can use the Mil reticle and just shoot hold overs in the scope or dial your drops with the turret in MOA.
Let’s say your running a custom CDS dial and you have a shot from a ridge steep down hill @ 600 yards. Best start doing some math because your going to way over shoot if you dial your custom CDS for 600. Easier to range then use one of many ballistics programs or pre made drop chart to compensate for the angle, dial the correct MOA or Mil’s and shoot. I usually tape a drop chart for each rifle to the stock.
Post by: jasnt on May 13, 2019, 10:05:55 PM
personally I would just go mil or moa. Too many things can change your dope. You’ll be happy to did
[/quote]would you care to elaborate on that? I truly have no idea what you meant by that but I'm interested
[/quote]at less than 600 yards your biggest factors will be exact range and exact speed and bc. Now let’s say your range is off by 40 yards. Now your 6” high or low. Now let’s say the temp you did your load work was a comfortable 63f and your bullets where zipping along at 3000 fps. Few months go by and your hunting bear in September and it’s 85f and now your load is shooting 3060 fps or its nov and your hunting elk in the high country and now the preasure is 26.35” instead of 30.35” where your dope was figured out? Or you start a new lot of bullets and the bc is a little lower of higher? Any one of these things isn’t a big deal but you start adding things together and you could be 24” high or low. Now try and stretch it out farther than that and your going to loose confidence in your setup
Learn moa or mil. Be forced to learn all the proper inputs and variables that can affect point of impact. You’ll have more hits and higher confidence.
Jmo
Post by: hogslayer on May 14, 2019, 02:04:20 PM
Post by: Crunchy on May 14, 2019, 08:25:03 PM